Forum: Arts / Politics & Current Affairs

Page:
Page 1 of 21 2
Politics & Current Affairs
Guns allowed in college
By cthompson1474member has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 306, member since Sat May 19, 2012
On Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:47 AM
Edited by cthompson1474 (249884) on 2013-01-22 11:49:21 Repetition

Opinions?

In Texas SB 182 was just introduced which would allow CHL holders (21 and older) to be allowed to carry their guns on school property.


Private universities have the option to go against the law, but public universities will not have that option.


31 Replies to Guns allowed in college

re: Guns allowed in college
By UberGoobermember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 6414, member since Sat May 15, 2004
On Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:53 AM
Edited by UberGoober (93585) on 2013-01-22 11:57:20
I thought concealed carry was already allowed on some university property in some states?

I can tell you that I 100% disagree with this law. Colleges tend to be full of bad decisions....lots of alcohol. There are millions of responsible gun carriers out there, but alcohol has been proven to alter decision making capacity and impair judgement, which is a poor combination with a lethal weapon.

Would guns be allowed everywhere? Could you live in a gun-free dorm?
re: Guns allowed in college
By saaammiemember has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 440, member since Thu Apr 01, 2010
On Tue Jan 22, 2013 06:54 PM
OMG... That's insane.

(But then again I'm from Sweden and it's supersuperrare for people to have guns, unless they hunt and even that requires special licenses. And we also have very few gun-related crimes here, but it might just be a coincidence...)
re: Guns allowed in college
By Clodaghmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 951, member since Wed Dec 27, 2006
On Tue Jan 22, 2013 07:26 PM
Just out of curiousity is this one of the colleges that has recently allowed gun carrying? If so I think it should be clear that it is not a good idea?

www.rte.ie . . .
re: Guns allowed in college
By cthompson1474member has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 306, member since Sat May 19, 2012
On Tue Jan 22, 2013 07:42 PM
Yes this is allowed in some states, and I'm not too sure about gun free dorms.

I am pro SB 182. I am a college student and will be applying for my CHL soon! I believe that, generally speaking, most people who spend the money and take the time to apply for this license are law abiding citizens. If an 18 year old with an overly inflated ego wanted to parade around with a gun I highly doubt they would spend the money and wait to get a license to do so. They can even lose this license if someone reports them (with proof) of not following the laws relating to it.

The CHL in Texas addresses mental history, age, shooting ability, and financial background (child support).

The age to get a CHL is 21, which I believe is senior year? I would hope that after at least four years of college one is mature enough to handle a concealed gun in public.
In establishments where over 51% of profits are made on alcohol CHL holders are prohibited from carrying their weapons.

world.time.com . . .

Take a look at this article. In Switzerland they allow guns, and to see a person carrying one down the street is not unheard of. They also have extremely low violence.

Of course nothing is fool proof. Being a small woman I feel much better walking across campus alone at night with a weapon of some sort. A cell phone with 911 plugged in already and a key between my fingers will only go so far.


Just a side note, there was a movie theater shooing in San Antonio stopped by a CHL holder. I can get the link if anyone is interested.

There has also been proven incidents where citizens stopped school shootings by running to their cars to grab their guns. Again let me know if you want the links. :)
re: Guns allowed in college
By cthompson1474member has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 306, member since Sat May 19, 2012
On Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:44 PM
Edited by cthompson1474 (249884) on 2013-01-22 12:59:47 Adding something
Clodagh I'm not sure what your purpose of that article is. The law has NOT been passed. This was someone carrying a gun illegally (assuming without a CHL license..,but the article does not address that). The purpose of allowing CHL holders to keep their guns with them is to protect themselves against these people.


For the opposing, I would also like to point out that recently a CHL was trying to prevent a robbery. This man fired, missed the robber, and killed a store clerk.

There are risks no matter what you do. But I think law abiding citizens have the right to defend themselves. Of course the first line of defense is avoidance. Don't walk alone down a dark alley, don't pick a fight, ect. But there are people who just are not right mentally and no amount of avoidance can save you here.


I have been thinking how in the world I would carry my gun to school if this law passes. What type of holster (if any) will allow me to safely hold my gun and pirouette. :)
re: Guns allowed in college
By SoClassy Comments: 316, member since Mon Dec 03, 2012
On Tue Jan 22, 2013 08:00 PM
Mexico has heavy gun control laws. Seems to be working out great for them.

Yes, college students have a reputation of being very immature. But if they are going to go through the trouble of getting the license, they are likely to be more mature than you would expect them to be. People tend to surprise you if you give them the chance.
re: Guns allowed in college
By Dances4LifePremium member Comments: 849, member since Thu Sep 22, 2011
On Tue Jan 22, 2013 01:19 PM
Edited by Dances4Life (241709) on 2013-01-22 13:21:19
Certain places do fine with no guns. However, they are illegal in Washington DC which has one of the highest gun crime rates per capita in the USA.

While I was first attending college outside of Dallas (in a low crime area) there was a large outbreak of rape, mugging and abduction violence on college campuses. One of my friends was mugged and had her car stolen by 2 guys that held her up at gunpoint and tried to her into her car until someone saw them so they drove off leaving her in the parking lot. At the time everyone was told to carry mace and walk in pairs until 2 girls were abducted outside of my campus. Then they amped up security, cancelled a lot of night classes and said to travel in groups. I think that CHL owners being able to conceal and carry at school would be a great idea. The people that are committing these crimes or that would commit future crimes are not going to go to the trouble of getting a CHL and would not abide by any law anyway.
re: Guns allowed in college (karma: 1)
By Chaconnemember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 6359, member since Thu Jul 12, 2007
On Tue Jan 22, 2013 08:45 PM
^At one time that was true about Washington DC, but no longer is. Last year was the lowest crime rate since 1964. Much of that can be attributed to the removal of some vicious drug rings and curtailing some MS-13 activity around here. The capture and imprisonment of the most notorious drug lord several years ago (he is serving a life sentence) put a significant dent in the crime rate when he and his gang were rounded up and convicted. The current police chief has taken a lot of policemen out of the station house and put them on the streets. They have conducted some very effective sting operations. She has increased the cooperation with other police forces within the city (Metro, Park Service, Secret Service, FBI; and with the various suburban jurisdictions. One also has to be careful when speaking of Washington DC for crime statistics. Unlike most urban areas, Washington is very concentrated in area. It is only 64 square miles and only 550,000 of the 6 or 7 million people in the metro area live within the District of Columbia. The rest of the population is divided between the States of Maryland and Virginia. If you took any US Metro area and drew a ring around the worst areas of crime and reported those statistics you would see disturbing crime statistics and indeed, the eastern part of the nation's capital city is no picnic ground (the rest of the city itself has very low crime.) Most of the suburban area (which is where I live) also has low crime except for a rather small area in Maryland which abuts the worst areas of DC. To compare DC with other urban areas would be like isolating the worst areas of, say, Chicago, or LA, and making them a separate city and crime reporting area.

I find it ironic that Texas, a state with a very short memory, would allow students with guns on a public college campus because one of the gravest and earliest mass shooting on a campus happened within sight of the Texas State Capitol.

Jon
re: Guns allowed in college
By Tansey Comments: 2367, member since Fri Mar 27, 2009
On Tue Jan 22, 2013 02:37 PM
Edited by Tansey (209516) on 2013-01-22 14:38:44
I would not be in favor of this. As the parent of one college student and one recent college grad, I have spent a good amount of time on college campuses in recent years. Immature college students + alcohol often adds up to impulsive actions. Adding guns to this mix is just asking for trouble, in my opinion. I would not want any child of mine attending college on a campus that allowed students to have guns.
Dances4Life wrote:

Certain places do fine with no guns. However, they are illegal in Washington DC which has one of the highest gun crime rates per capita in the USA.

Can you cite recent sources for this statement? I lived in the city of Washington, DC for 19 years, still have lots of friends and family there, and I find your statement surprising.
re: Guns allowed in college
By cthompson1474member has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 306, member since Sat May 19, 2012
On Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:04 PM
I find it odd that the reasons some of you have for being against this is that college students are immature. May I remind you there are people under the age of 21 who are fighting for your freedom. Age does not equal maturity.

Jon your post about the school shooting in Texas is exactly why some of us are fighting for this bill. Criminals will bring a gun anywhere no matter if it is a gun free zone or not, I believe all this bill will do is put guns into the right hands.
re: Guns allowed in college
By cthompson1474member has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 306, member since Sat May 19, 2012
On Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:14 PM
www.neighborhoodscout.com . . .

Washington, D.C. Crime info
re: Guns allowed in college
By UberGoobermember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 6414, member since Sat May 15, 2004
On Tue Jan 22, 2013 03:53 PM
Edited by UberGoober (93585) on 2013-01-22 15:57:23
Edited by UberGoober (93585) on 2013-01-22 15:58:28 clarity
May I remind you there are people under the age of 21 who are fighting for your freedom. Age does not equal maturity.

It's the college ENVIRONMENT not the absolute age of the students that fosters poor decision making (ALCOHOL).

At the same time however, serving overseas or not, it's a FACT that the pre frontal cortex of our brain (which controls decision making, emotional responses, etc.) doesn't completely develop until the age of 25. So yes age is one factor as in the environment of college that facilitates poor decisions.
re: Guns allowed in college
By Chaconnemember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 6359, member since Thu Jul 12, 2007
On Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:40 PM
The people under 21 [and over] fighting for our freedom are also a part of "a well-ordered militia", the armed services of the United States and presumably are well-trained.

The District of Columbia is not a "gun free" zone in a legal sense and a Supreme Court decision of a few years ago removed most of the restrictions the District government had, particularly for legal handguns.

While some of the statistics your link provides are indicative...many of the areas to the east of the US Capitol and the Anacostia River are indeed pretty rough areas, but much of the graphic part is at best misleading. Some of the White areas which the scale would indicate are high crime areas are, in fact, federal preserves where few people have any access and fewer live. There is likely little or no reporting. Some of the areas, which locals know, include the former Walter Reed Hospital which is now closed and closed off while it is being repurposed. Catholic University and the adjacent Shrine of the Immaculate Conception and Howard University are in white as is the National Arboretum and St. Elizabeth's, a Mental Hospital. A major urban area, of course, is always likely to have more crime than the national average. There are vast areas of this country were few people even live. I certainly can't say that Washington DC is perfectly safe, it isn't. There are areas of it I haven't been in 25 years, nor do I have any reason to even go to those areas. I don't know anyone there, there is nothing to shop for, even when I was in government I didn't have meetings in these places. These are areas of urban blight and many social problems but they are not materially different from the problems of any other US urban area with the same problems. There is nothing provable or unprovable about the presence of guns or lack thereof in any of these areas. This is one of the reasons I am largely agnostic on the question of gun control. Instances of an armed citizen preventing a crime are actually quite rare though they tend to get a lot of publicity when and if they do occur. They get the ink and the YouTube videos. Before one starts quoting so-called statistics one must understand just what is being measured and who is doing the measuring and when.

Jon
re: Guns allowed in college
By Kekoamember has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 8949, member since Sat Jul 19, 2003
On Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:03 AM
No way. Even if I supported lax gun laws, I firmly believe that there should be gun-free zones. Those gun-free zones should consist of public buildings (schools, libraries, court houses, federal buildings, etc). I don't give two hoots what private buildings do, they can hand out guns and party hats at the door if they want.
re: Guns allowed in college
By teenydanseur Comments: 513, member since Mon Nov 23, 2009
On Tue Jan 22, 2013 06:04 PM
Edited by teenydanseur (218249) on 2013-01-22 18:07:51
Also to add on to Jon's comment, 80% of the crimes listed under the crime rates are property crimes. That would be theft from a parked vehicle, theft of a vehicle, vandalism, things of that nature. Crimes like that are generally higher within a larger city because it's easier for people to get around. I know that LA and New York have huge property crime rates.

With property crime being the main source of crime, that wouldn't really involve a gun in most scenarios, either in the actual crime or in stopping a crime. So it really isn't part of the gun scenario of no guns still but still having high crime. It's more a trend where large cities automatically have more soft targets for property crime.

Also the gun holder trying to shoot the robber and killing the store clerk, um YIKES. This is why people with guns need to understand that they are NOT heroes. Consistently get your butt to a shooting range and a defensive class where you can learn to gauge when a shooting is not going to result in hitting someone else. People say they go to the gun range, but being in a situation where your adrenaline is high and you are scared, and other people are moving around, and some have guns is NOT like going to the shooting range.

This is why police officers and military have such extensive training.
They are specifically trained in knowing how to quickly assess a situation, gauge the risk of firing in that situation, and engage or disengage in a safe manner. I don't think regular gun owners really prepare for training with the idea that most scenarios require you to disengage to ensure the safety of others. It's one thing to understand that abstractly and another thing to really TRAIN for that. (At least, I don't think they really train for that...? Gun owners feel free to speak up if you do!)
re: Guns allowed in college
By Tansey Comments: 2367, member since Fri Mar 27, 2009
On Tue Jan 22, 2013 07:05 PM
Edited by Tansey (209516) on 2013-01-22 19:10:03
Edited by Tansey (209516) on 2013-01-22 19:12:29
OP, the link you posted does not break out gun crime rates. Would you kindly share references that show that DC has one of the highest gun crime rates?
re: Guns allowed in college
By cthompson1474member has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 306, member since Sat May 19, 2012
On Tue Jan 22, 2013 08:11 PM
Edited by cthompson1474 (249884) on 2013-01-22 20:14:12
Edited by cthompson1474 (249884) on 2013-01-22 20:21:30
I am not the one that brought up Washington DC. Someone else did and I looked up statistics for it. I have no knowledge on Washington DC. Never lived there, visited, or paid much attention.

Someone asked for statistics so I looked them up. I was trying to be helpful but am now being questioned on a statistic I never brought up. :/. If you want to know more about Washington D.C. feel free to look them up as I did.

:)
re: Guns allowed in college
By cthompson1474member has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 306, member since Sat May 19, 2012
On Tue Jan 22, 2013 08:51 PM
Edited by cthompson1474 (249884) on 2013-01-22 21:06:24
teenydanseur wrote:

Also to add on to Jon's comment, 80% of the crimes listed under the crime rates are property crimes. That would be theft from a parked vehicle, theft of a vehicle, vandalism, things of that nature. Crimes like that are generally higher within a larger city because it's easier for people to get around. I know that LA and New York have huge property crime rates.

With property crime being the main source of crime, that wouldn't really involve a gun in most scenarios, either in the actual crime or in stopping a crime. So it really isn't part of the gun scenario of no guns still but still having high crime. It's more a trend where large cities automatically have more soft targets for property crime.

Also the gun holder trying to shoot the robber and killing the store clerk, um YIKES. This is why people with guns need to understand that they are NOT heroes. Consistently get your butt to a shooting range and a defensive class where you can learn to gauge when a shooting is not going to result in hitting someone else. People say they go to the gun range, but being in a situation where your adrenaline is high and you are scared, and other people are moving around, and some have guns is NOT like going to the shooting range.

This is why police officers and military have such extensive training.
They are specifically trained in knowing how to quickly assess a situation, gauge the risk of firing in that situation, and engage or disengage in a safe manner. I don't think regular gun owners really prepare for training with the idea that most scenarios require you to disengage to ensure the safety of others. It's one thing to understand that abstractly and another thing to really TRAIN for that. (At least, I don't think they really train for that...? Gun owners feel free to speak up if you do!)


This is a great point. Currently I do not think there are any requirements on how often a CHL holder must practice shooting, much less at a moving target. I am in favor of requiring extensive training more often. Personally I go to the range twice a month.

My comment about the military did a poor job of communicating what I was trying to communicate, and for that I apologize. I do not believe maturity should be a factor. Currently the gun laws on age are what they are. I have met MANY adults that are immature. There is no way to measure maturity levels, so it really shouldn't be a factor. I never compared a CHL holders training to that of the military, I was making a comment on their maturity levels. I have met members of the military who have felt the need to show off their guns and act irresponsibly, even though their training is superior.

Like I have said before there is NO fool proof method to keep everyone safe. I do believe in the right to be able to protect myself and I am nervous where I am in a situation where I don't have that right.

At most large colleges there is plenty of off campus housing. These students are free to have guns with them. There is nothing stopping these students from getting drunk and walking into a dorm with the gun in their pants. I do not think passing SB 182 will increase the amount of students who go out and buy a gun and get their CHL. Think of the people walking down the street, very few are concealed handgun license holders. I don't believe the law will pass and tons of students will flock to the gun store to get a gun, then to apply for a CHL, and finally show off their gun potentially losing the ability to carry that license and getting arrested.

I tried to look up the statistics of CHL holders stopping violence and found no concrete statistics. I did find several individual stories. Feel free to look them up. I was under the impression that the media did not report incidents of CHL holders stopping violence (many without even firing their weapons). All I ever hear is people getting shot. In Texas, I have heard of several stories in the news of one or two people getting shot, and when you actually look up the story in depth you will find they were actually stopped by a CHL holder. Most of the time the media leaves that out altogether.



I also wanted to give my reasons for being pro-gun. I realize that we are all individuals and have many different opinions on politics, among other things. Some of you have mentioned that other countries do fine without guns, and while that's true, that makes the citizens completely dependent on the government.

First example, protection of self or property. Someone breaks into your house with the intention of robbing or raping you. Guns are banned. This criminal has a metal pipe/ baseball bat/ knife with them. You, being 4'11 100 lbs are caught off guard in a room with nothing but a remote, pillows, and large furniture, and a phone. Call the police. This person will more then likely get what they want before the police arrive.

Second example, you are a nature person going on a hike in a secluded area. Some wild animal (bear maybe) comes out of nowhere. Without a gun what are your options. Yes you have a CHANCE of surviving... but the chance would be greater with the right type of fire arm.

Third example. Protection from government. That might mean two police officers who have gone off their rocker, a local police force, military (one or a group), or an attack from an outside country.
These situations may not be likely (I HOPE) but they could happen.

Without guns, or a comparable weapon, you are at the complete mercy of your government to take care of you. With the way they have dealt with education (no child left behind), and the holes in the Obamacare policy, I do not trust the government to take care of me. I really don't want to get into a debate on Obamacare. There are pro's and con's to the policy but I don't believe it is anywhere near perfect.
re: Guns allowed in college
By Kekoamember has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 8949, member since Sat Jul 19, 2003
On Wed Jan 23, 2013 05:15 AM
Yeah, because some pistols are going to protect against a corrupt government who for some reason wants to kill every last citizen and has the capability of using unmanned drones ;)
re: Guns allowed in college
By cthompson1474member has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 306, member since Sat May 19, 2012
On Wed Jan 23, 2013 05:25 AM
Kekoa wrote:

Yeah, because some pistols are going to protect against a corrupt government who for some reason wants to kill every last citizen and has the capability of using unmanned drones ;)


Really? I thought this was a place to have a discussion and welcome other viewpoints...


A corrupt government can be anything from a single police officer using his powers in the wrong way to a small army of government officials using their power in the wrong way. I do believe people can protect themselves from this, at the very least until additional help arrives.

And where did you get pistol? That's where the assault rifles come in handy. :)
re: Guns allowed in college
By Kekoamember has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 8949, member since Sat Jul 19, 2003
On Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:26 PM
Edited by Kekoa (69553) on 2013-01-22 23:30:58
To be honest, it doesn't matter if someone has a pair of bazookas. If the government wants to kill someone, it'd be like a human squashing a bug. Also, anyone who shoots a police officer for any reason other than their own imminent and certain death or severe injury, they deserve to be punished to the full extent of the law. I'm not delusional, I know that corrupt cops abound, but if people start shooting cops because they believe the cop is handling things wrongly, we have a problem.

Also, I just wanted to say that the above has nothing to do with my opposition to guns. I can empathize with many of the reasons people choose to have guns. But the idea that they will protect you from a totalitarian government or a foreign government is a laugh. Go with the other, much more convincing reasons.
re: Guns allowed in college
By cthompson1474member has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 306, member since Sat May 19, 2012
On Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:36 PM
Kekoa wrote:

Also, anyone who shoots a police officer for any reason other than their own imminent and certain death or severe injury, they deserve to be punished to the full extent of the law. I'm not delusional, I know that corrupt cops abound, but if people start shooting cops because they believe the cop is handling things wrongly, we have a problem..


Yeah agreed. I was never suggesting we go around shooting cops for doing a bad job at their job. I meant when they use their power to rape, murder, kidnap ect.

You may laugh at my reasons as you put it but while your doing this I am laughing at the idea that making somewhere a gun free zone will somehow make people stop trying to kill others.
re: Guns allowed in college
By teenydanseur Comments: 513, member since Mon Nov 23, 2009
On Wed Jan 23, 2013 01:43 PM
I am so confused that people think their assault rifles are going to stop government take over. In the unlikely scenario that a government take over happened, we would be powerless against it, that's just the nature of modern warfare. The government has tanks, a high trained army, navy, air force, marines. But they wouldn't need many people to co-operate in that regardless. They have planes, ships, missiles, drones. If the government wanted to take over the country you'd get two steps out of your door with your assault rifle. What about the government having control of the flow of money? And imports into the country? How would you eat? Have electricity? Drink water? It is just absurd to think a government take over could be solved with a couple of assault rifles. This isn't 1862. We all live in established neighborhoods, none of us grows enough food to sustain ourselves for a long period of time. That argument that it's protection from an oppressive government is insane to me. You are talking about oppression from one person acting alone(a single corrupt police officer) but at the same time the law does NOT side with people shooting police officers for good reason. Corrupt or not you're still probably going to jail.

If you really genuinely wanted to protect yourself from this looming government takeover that gun owners always reference you should learn to live off the land, grow your own food, go off the grid, live near a border, but I guess that is more involved than just getting a gun license/going to the shooting range a few times a month.
re: Guns allowed in college
By cthompson1474member has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 306, member since Sat May 19, 2012
On Wed Jan 23, 2013 06:57 AM
Edited by cthompson1474 (249884) on 2013-01-23 07:13:55
Edited by cthompson1474 (249884) on 2013-01-23 07:18:51
Please go back and re-read my post. Nowhere did I say assault rifles will protect us from a government take over. They can protect us from a small number of government workers abusing their power. Is there a chance your butt will wind up in jail? Of course. Many believe jail is better then being killed at the hands of a lunatic.

When I was referring to an outside country I was thinking the same about one or a few government officials abusing their power. I was thinking of border states. I am not crazy enough to believe that we can protect ourselves from a bombing by shooting at planes.

The point is I do not want to be dependent on the government to save me in the event something happens, no matter how small. There are too many people in the country for the government to protect us all. And back to the original point, too many classrooms and colleges for an armed police officer to watch over every student.
Page:
Page 1 of 21 2

ReplySendWatch