Forum: Arts / Religion

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re: Shocking announcement by Pope Benedict
By hummingbird Comments: 10419, member since Mon Apr 18, 2005
On Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:12 AM
teenydanseur wrote:



Lots of people are consciousness objectors to a draft, people go to jail and get killed to object what they believe in. Perhaps at the time, he did not have the maturity or foresight to object to it, but lots of people his age do.



It was a bit different in Nazi Germany, if you objected conscientiously or otherwise you ended up in one of their camps (not the holiday variety) people who objected to Nazi rule didn't do so for long. To try and compare what happened to young men in Nazi Germany to modern conscientious objectors in the free world is like comparing chalk and cheese.
re: Shocking announcement by Pope Benedict
By teenydanseur Comments: 513, member since Mon Nov 23, 2009
On Thu Feb 14, 2013 01:48 AM
hummingbird wrote:

teenydanseur wrote:



Lots of people are consciousness objectors to a draft, people go to jail and get killed to object what they believe in. Perhaps at the time, he did not have the maturity or foresight to object to it, but lots of people his age do.



It was a bit different in Nazi Germany, if you objected conscientiously or otherwise you ended up in one of their camps (not the holiday variety) people who objected to Nazi rule didn't do so for long. To try and compare what happened to young men in Nazi Germany to modern conscientious objectors in the free world is like comparing chalk and cheese.


I wasn't comparing to the free world, I was referring to Germany:

Of course, not all Germans approved of the barbaric tactics being employed by their own leaders. One story that clearly illustrates the struggle to heed one’s conscience in the midst of death and destruction can be found in a series entitled The German Wehrmacht. Heinz Drossel, a former Wehrmacht soldier who served from 1941-1945 on the Eastern Front, described his experience of witnessing a young 20 year-old Wehrmacht soldier (unknown) who turned in his weapons to his ordinance officer after three days of fighting on the Eastern Front (Pt. 4 @ 27 min.). He was immediately arrested, court-martialed, and sentenced to face the firing squad. Drossel claims he tried to talk the young soldier into just firing in the air, but the young 20 year-old Wehrmacht soldier would hear none of it. Drossel claims the young soldier told him that he had been “raised to respect humanity,” and to tell his mother why he did not change his mind. Drossel alleges the young Wehrmacht soldier was led out early in the morning to be executed by firing squad by his own men. He insisted on not wearing a blind fold.


Around 30,000 soldiers objected to the crimes of the Nazi party, 20,000 of those were put to death. Many more just disappeared, choosing to go into hiding or try to flee the country. No, I'm not saying you can expect normal people to do that, the will to survive is great. But people did choose not to fight and risked (and many lost) their lives making a choice greater than themselves. Not everyone would do it, but it does show an extraordinary amount of character.
re: Shocking announcement by Pope Benedict
By d4jmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 12490, member since Fri Aug 27, 2004
On Thu Feb 14, 2013 05:20 AM
So why would hold someone to it if it takes an extraordinary amount of anything? It's not like he knew he was going to be Pope in the future.
re: Shocking announcement by Pope Benedict
By teenydanseur Comments: 513, member since Mon Nov 23, 2009
On Thu Feb 14, 2013 08:50 AM
Edited by teenydanseur (218249) on 2013-02-14 08:51:33
d4j wrote:

So why would hold someone to it if it takes an extraordinary amount of anything? It's not like he knew he was going to be Pope in the future.


Hmm... actually that's a good question, and I've been trying to figure out myself why it bothers me. I think the thing for me was; the Pope is a figure that tells you to sacrifice and put the will of God before man. And it doesn't sit right with me when the person telling you that was in a situation where he put the will of himself before others, and then doesn't express any humility for that situation and just sort of says it is what it is. In my head these religious figures; Mother Theresa, Dalai Llama etc are extraordinary humans, and if they didn't live their entire lives that way, there is usually an expression of change since they live in the public eye, as an example for how others should live.

I'm aware that that's my personal opinion, however, and a lot of people don't really feel the same way about the situation. But it did bother me personally.
re: Shocking announcement by Pope Benedict (karma: 4)
By d4jmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 12490, member since Fri Aug 27, 2004
On Sun Feb 17, 2013 05:08 PM
The Pope should not held up as higher or a more perfect example than other men/women. We should always test our leaders - but not to see whether they are perfect. The test we should give is: Who/what are they pointing to? If they point to themselves then they are not worthy of listening to, because ALL humans are flawed, and in that sense they are no more worthy than yourself. But if they point to that which is above them, that which IS perfect and holy and just then that is a mark of a good leader. Mother Theresa, the Dalai Lama, the Pope, they do not point to themselves as good or perfect or worthy of following. They point THE WAY. If you are looking for a leader who can pass a test, who has a perfect life with no sin, no mistakes, can pass judgment, you will never find one. And if a leader asks you to put the will of God before man, he/she is not saying do it because I do it, do it just like me, see, why can't you do it. Instead they are saying, at least in the case of Christianity, we on our own strength we cannot put the will of God first, so let us show you who DID sacrifice and put God's will first, let's all get our strength from HIM, let us follow HIM.
re: Shocking announcement by Pope Benedict
By Moonlitefairy06member has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 7177, member since Fri Apr 16, 2004
On Sun Feb 17, 2013 05:29 PM
D4J's post reminds me of an Op-Ed written by the Communications Director for the Conference of American Bishops (Cardinal Dolan is the President of this organization) on Ash Wednesday.

She wrote:
Ashes don’t say we’re holy. They say we’re sinners. They don’t say we’re perfect, only that we’re willing to try.


I think that can apply to all Catholics whether they practice 4 times a year or are the Pope. None of us are perfect, but we can acknowledge our wrongdoings and try to make things better.

Here is the full piece: www.washingtonpost.com . . .
re: Shocking announcement by Pope Benedict
By teenydanseur Comments: 513, member since Mon Nov 23, 2009
On Sun Feb 17, 2013 06:00 PM
d4j wrote:

The Pope should not held up as higher or a more perfect example than other men/women. We should always test our leaders - but not to see whether they are perfect. The test we should give is: Who/what are they pointing to? If they point to themselves then they are not worthy of listening to, because ALL humans are flawed, and in that sense they are no more worthy than yourself. But if they point to that which is above them, that which IS perfect and holy and just then that is a mark of a good leader. Mother Theresa, the Dalai Lama, the Pope, they do not point to themselves as good or perfect or worthy of following. They point THE WAY. If you are looking for a leader who can pass a test, who has a perfect life with no sin, no mistakes, can pass judgment, you will never find one. And if a leader asks you to put the will of God before man, he/she is not saying do it because I do it, do it just like me, see, why can't you do it. Instead they are saying, at least in the case of Christianity, we on our own strength we cannot put the will of God first, so let us show you who DID sacrifice and put God's will first, let's all get our strength from HIM, let us follow HIM.


You know I hadn't thought about it that way. I think I automatically condemn anything holocaust related that this just tied into that. Because when I think of other things (like if he had a drinking problem, or had gotten in trouble with the law at that age) that stuff wouldn't have bothered me. So maybe it's just the connection and immediate disqualification my mind goes to in that situation. I do agree we shouldn't judge the person if they learn from their mistakes.
re: Shocking announcement by Pope Benedict
By ChristinePremium member Comments: 6817, member since Wed Feb 04, 2009
On Fri Mar 01, 2013 06:36 PM
Here is an Op/Ed item from The New York Times

www.nytimes.com . . .

It is tempting to give this some serious thought. When "religion" cherry picks issues of faith/science, and continues to hold dubious positions on homosexuality and women's rights (just two examples) perhaps some of us may want to consider that we too are "tired".

Thoughts?

Keep On Dancing*
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