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re: Gender pay gap. What is your opinion of it?
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8688, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:45 AM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-10-16 00:54:45
^ well, it depends on how you define corporate?

This was a social media company that had public stocks, a CEO, managers, chain of command, headquarters and offices across the nation. They are currently in the East and West Coast.
Yes, when we started out they were doing promoting in bars, restaurants, clubs, concerts etc. Just like other social networking companies have a " booth". I started out as an ndependent contracter being a promotion girl, moved up into a salary position and helped to grow the company in my city branch. I also had to come up with accounting information to send over to the headquarters.
I do have a business degree after all. The combination of my education, brains and sex appeal put me in demand for this specific company. Without all of the above, I wouldn't have lasted long.
So maybe it isn't a traditional 5-9 office job, but I would like to think that sex appeal wasn't the only driving force to my success at this job.
I quit because they weren't paying me enough....now I am happy doing a job I love and I have a passion for. Teaching dance.

How would you define corporate America? Maybe we have different definitions?
re: Gender pay gap. What is your opinion of it?
By imadanseurPremium member Comments: 16604, member since Thu Dec 04, 2003
On Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:57 AM
I started as an independent contracted being a promotion girl, moved up into a salary position and helped to grow the company in my city branch. I also had to come up with accounting information to send over the headquarters.


In your salaried position, while you were growing the company and performing accounting duties...were you still in competition with other women that had to be a size 4 and were they all promotion girls that moved into salaried positions? Did you have benefits, was it a Fortune 500 company? I guess I'm completely confused because I had no idea you were working in such a prestigious position while going to school, running the dance studio, teaching etc.
re: Gender pay gap. What is your opinion of it?
By lux Comments: 1178, member since Mon Jun 02, 2008
On Wed Oct 16, 2013 01:25 AM
Honestly Lauren, sometimes it really seems that you're deliberately missing the point to stir things up.

You can't seriously believe that your work as a promo girl counted as "working in corporate America"? Just because you're working for a corporation doesn't mean you're working in a corporate role.
re: Gender pay gap. What is your opinion of it? (karma: 1)
By Louisemember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 17315, member since Thu Jun 06, 2002
On Wed Oct 16, 2013 06:34 AM
I've worked in the public sector and the private sector. In the public sector, particularly the NHS as it's funded by everyone, there are very strict pay bands (Google Agenda for Change if you're remotely interested). There has to be justification for advertising a new post at a certain pay band or moving someone up or down and pay band. I'm therefore not sure that a man would earn more simply for being a man. However at the hospital I worked at there were no female consultants whatsoever. Was this because the board consciously chose not to hire females? Was it because they were all orthopaedic surgeons (colloquially known as butchers) and women typically aren't drawn to that field of medicine? I don't know.

In the private sectors, big companies have similar sorts of paybands but in SMEs like mine, it's all down to what you negotiate. I just found out that an ex-colleague at the same level was on £3k per year more than me, but that's not because he was a he - it's because that's what he negotiated. It never even occurred to me to negotiate because I'm going for a promotion that would give me a payrise anyway, so I thought I'd leave it and concentrate on hitting my performance targets instead. Everything's negotiable in a smaller company and if a man doesn't push, he'll get less than a woman at the same level who does push. I'm certain of that.

My industry is actually very female-dominated. Our MD is female. PR and marketing is seen as a bit more fluffy - a man who wanted to write would be a journalist, people say. Then look at Tim's field - accountancy is fairly evenly split these days, but every department he's ever worked in has been overwhelmingly people of Indian and Pakistani descent. Then look at the police force and you get very few men of this background, and probably zero women. Female primary school teachers and nursery nurses outnumber their male counterparts.

I therefore think, where I am at least, that's there's less a gender pay gap, and more of a gap in which professions each gender chooses - and then within that, which professions would be attractive/acceptable to different cultures. Are men naturally attracted to higher-paying professions or is it just a societal expectation that they'll avoid fluffy professions?

I don't know.
re: Gender pay gap. What is your opinion of it?
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8688, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Wed Oct 16, 2013 07:57 AM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-10-16 08:01:30
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-10-16 08:08:08
Nope, once I stopped becoming a promo girl, I wasn't in direct competition anymore. I moved up based on merit and the fact that I was in business school, not based on looks at that point. I say, use my looks to get in, and then wow them with my brain.
Yes, Renae, I did a bit of everything in college. I easily had 16 hour days certain weeks.It took a huge toll on me, but it was worth learning the ropes. No,it was not a Fortune 500 company, and I got some benefits like sick days but I did not received health insurance. It was not full time employment, but I was offered a full time position after graduation but I would have had to move to headquarters.
I was basically the " manager" of the promotion girls. I contacted venues, booked promo girls, did their timesheet, scouted for new promo girls. I also gave weekly reports, powerpoint presentations,met with sponsors and investors, attended business meetings to discuss which way to take our branch etc. I was involved in a huge capacity, but it was not a 9-5 job behind a desk. They were pretty flexible due to my school schedule and dance job.
Plus, at that point the majority of people communicated with me on the phone, so it didn't matter if I had makeup on or not or what I looked like. I was even able to use some second language to introduce investors to the higher ups.

Lux, it seriously seems like you are missing the point that I actually did have a role that used my *gasp* brains . I was the top of my class in Business school and I graduated earlier then the Business school plan said I would. Don't belittle me into assuming I don't know the difference between working as a promo girl and working in a different capacity in a corporation. Ever dealt with a woman with beauty and brains? Just because she throws out the word "model" doesn't automatically throw out the fact she had a " real" job along with modeling part time. I think that is a stereotype that so many beauty pageant girls and models deal with every single single day. Just because they use their looks to further a certain career doesn't automatically make them empty in the head.
re: Gender pay gap. What is your opinion of it? (karma: 1)
By slice Comments: 1247, member since Fri Oct 15, 2004
On Wed Oct 16, 2013 08:16 AM
In one recent study, more than 100 university psychologists were asked to rate the CVs of Dr. Karen Miller or Dr. Brian Miller, fictitious applicants for an academic tenure-track job. The CVs were identical, apart from the name. Yet strangely, the male Dr. Miller was perceived (by both male and female reviewers) to have better research, teaching, and service experience than the luckless female Dr. Miller. Overall, about three-quarters of the psychologists thought that Dr. Brian was hirable, while only just under half had the same confidence in Dr. Karen. The same researchers also sent out applications for the position of tenured professor, again identical but for the male and female name at the top. This time, the application was so strong that most of the raters thought that tenure was deserved, regardless of sex. However, the endorsement of Karen�s application was four times more likely to be accompanied by cautionary caveats scrawled in the margins of the questionnaire: such as, �I would need to see evidence that she had gotten these grants and publications on her own� and �We would have to see her job talk.�


(Delusions of Gender: How Our Minds, Society, and Neurosexism Create Difference)

The number of women in academia has more than doubled in the past 20 years, and women are fast approaching parity with men on college faculties. But in the top ranks, men still far outnumber women. Sixty-one percent of male professors have tenure, compared with 43 percent of female faculty, according to a 2009-10 AAUP survey.

...

"There's not a good model for having your children and becoming an academic at 45," said Tovah Klein, director of the Center for Toddler Development at Barnard. She wrote the paper with colleague Danielle Auriemma.

...

Working fathers, in theory, ought to suffer the same setbacks as mothers in their quest for tenure. But research shows that parenthood has an opposite, positive effect on men's abilities "to move ahead in academic careers," said John Curtis, director of research and public policy at AAUP. Fathers bear fewer parenting burdens than mothers, and faculty fathers who do sacrifice work for parenting tend to be admired and rewarded, while the mother who makes the same choice is "seen as neglecting her job," Curtis said.


(For working mothers in academia, tenure track is often a tough balancing act)

Just to add some scholarly and journalistic muscle to what imadanseur and I were mentioning earlier.

Again, if this kind of thing is prevalent in academia, it's really not so crazy to imagine similar phenomena in corporate America. Not being perceived as a worthwhile longterm investment, less opportunities for advancement, less opportunities of higher pay... seems all these things would certainly contribute to a wage gap.
re: Gender pay gap. What is your opinion of it?
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8688, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Wed Oct 16, 2013 08:23 AM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-10-16 08:26:17
Slice, I wonder if having childcare at Universities and companies would partially do the trick?
For example, my good friend works for google and they have childcare, nap rooms for adults, free food etc. It makes it very easy for her to juggle children and also a career. My university also had childcare for the professors, and I saw many of them lugging around small children before class.
It is unfortunate that people don't have access to childcare everywhere at work. A woman shouldn't have to chose between having a family OR a job.

Even if they had shuttle services picking up children from school and taking them to the company's childcare everyday, I think that would be a huge help to working mothers.
re: Gender pay gap. What is your opinion of it?
By Meganmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 12956, member since Wed Mar 17, 2004
On Wed Oct 16, 2013 08:27 AM
Edited by Megan (87282) on 2013-10-16 08:29:23
Lauren, I have to agree that it feels like you're deliberately misinterpreting everyone else's pretty logical stances to further your own issue.

Your second last post is getting pretty "catty" yourself, too. The sarcasm isn't necessary, not is the implication that no one else contributing to this thread has "beauty and brains." It's kind of off-putting to have you keep repeating how beautiful everyone considers you but how smart you are too. You're certainly a pretty girl and I in no way want to judge your appearance, but I think you need to be very careful with your tone here and the attitude that you are projecting is veering into dangerous territory.

Like I said, I bartended for years and I know what being valued for your boobs feels like. I have also been a "promo girl" for a large marketing company and I know that world too. However, I only rarely took the liquor promos exactly because of stuff like this. Getting forced into skimpy outfits and told to flirt did not make me happy. It's not an environment I enjoy. If you don't enjoy it either, maybe you shouldn't be doing it. Why work in such toxic situations?
re: Gender pay gap. What is your opinion of it?
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8688, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Wed Oct 16, 2013 08:34 AM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-10-16 08:39:09
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-10-16 08:47:16
Megan, I wasn't talking to anyone except Lux here. Everyone else has been polite but Lux on the other hand , in my opinion, has her nose held high and it seemed like she was taking down on me based on what she said in her second post. She was talking to me like a child who didn't understand promo girls VS corporate culture. Did she really have to emphasis " seriously" in her sentence?

Of course people have beauty and brains. Look at people on DDN! You guys are pretty, nice and smart. I would uptalk you to anyone saying how awesome you guys are.
If you look around DDN, people say things like " I will never be 5'9 , I am a size 14 but I am still gorgeous". They get cheers and compliments. How is that type of confidence any different from the fact that I am confident about myself just like these people are? People get praised for confidence, but when I say it, it becomes catty?

My point is just that Lux say I was a promo girls, I clarified that I was involved in the company in another capacity, yet she seemed to have " promo" girl stuck in her brain, without considering the fact that I clarified that it was in a different capacity.

My post was in direct communication for the belittling that lux did. I am not a moron, don't speak to me as if I am.

For all I know, Lux could be a Victoria Secret model or Miss America. I wasn't implying that anyone on this thread didn't have beauty and brains. I was just saying, based on her response, I felt like she was fixated on the fact that I was a promo girl, so I didn't have the capacity to do another type of job. I hear this type of crap all the time from people who are shocked that models do have an education just like everyone else.
re: Gender pay gap. What is your opinion of it? (karma: 1)
By Meganmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 12956, member since Wed Mar 17, 2004
On Wed Oct 16, 2013 08:46 AM
I didn't call you a "moron" nor imply it. I just said you need to be careful with your tone as it's not reading respectfully at the moment. You aren't a stupid girl, but I think this particular debate could benefit from a bit more thinking before posting (not just for you.) I know you can get a bit heated about debates so I thought I should let you know how things are coming across before it gets any more intense.

I know it's personal for everyone here, with all commenting being women. I'm trying to step back from my feelings and look at the facts.

To return to the question of kids, it's the pause in the career and loss of momentum just with the birth and time off afterward that really kills women in the workplace more than the juggling afterward, I think. Losing even six months is a long time to he away from your company.
re: Gender pay gap. What is your opinion of it?
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8688, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Wed Oct 16, 2013 08:48 AM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-10-16 08:51:00
^ Megan, I didn't say you called me a moron :) I said because lux highlighted the word " seriously" it felt like she was talking to me if I was a moron. Wanted to clarify that.
If she would have asked nicely like Renae did, I probably wouldn't have had the reaction I did.

Thanks for the heads up btw, I DO get heated, so it's good you let me know I was being carried away. I appreciate that.
re: Gender pay gap. What is your opinion of it?
By Meganmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 12956, member since Wed Mar 17, 2004
On Wed Oct 16, 2013 09:25 AM
Then I'm happy to continue!

I did read a study recently that supported my momentum idea, that it's the pause (or multiple pauses) that even a short mat leave causes that hinder women. If you're not there for a few months, you can miss big events and fall behind. It's not the only issue, of course, but I think it's probably the one affecting the most women...because most people do have kids at some point and dads stay home more rarely (and don't have to deal with possible health issues before and after the birth necessitating more time off, as I understand a lot of pregnant women have difficulty working for various reasons especially in the last trimester.)
re: Gender pay gap. What is your opinion of it?
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8688, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Wed Oct 16, 2013 09:31 AM
^ I wonder if they will allow women to work from home? I know some companies require you to be in the office, but in our technological age I feel like women should be allowed to do telecommuting.

If she is a professor, maybe she can teach online classes instead of being on campus. Maybe they should make paternity leave more of a " common" thing in the world. Maybe if men weren't afraid to take it for the fear of falling behind, it would make it easier for women to leave for a couple of months.

Or, we can just be like the country that has a 2 month vacation each year or maybe maternity leave can be up to a year. I guess with even " official" maternity leave, it can cause some feelings of falling behind and it is hard to stay current with the company.

I saw, maybe make more of a push to allow telecommuting.
re: Gender pay gap. What is your opinion of it?
By CaffeinePremium member Comments: 3194, member since Wed Aug 08, 2007
On Wed Oct 16, 2013 05:54 PM
Edited by Caffeine (183827) on 2013-10-16 17:58:02
I work in academia, and it's not the availability of childcare that's the issue, it's the physical absence from the workplace that is a career-killer. Telecommuting is fine in theory, until you have pre- or post-natal complications, a crying baby hanging off you and you're running on uncountable days without sleep. I'm sure some people can manage it, but I don't know how unless they have an army of nannies.

I'm back from taking a year off maternity leave, and even though I was in (sporadic because I never got time to get to my computer) email communication while I was at home it's incredibly difficult returning to the workforce. When you're away, you're out of sight, out of mind, and your career progression is put on hold. When you're back, you're behind the people who were on the same level as you, and have automatically missed out on chance of promotion simply because you're not there. Most people I know coming back from maternity leave return part-time, so they can still spend some time with their children. Most mothers are expected to return part-time and have flexi hours so they can do the school pickups. Most mothers are the ones expected to drop everything when their kids are sick. Very few fathers are expected to take time off their careers, whether it be a few hours, a day or a year, to look after their families.

And that's just one of many thin wedges causing a pay divide between men and women. Between peers.

Corporate culture is another. Many CEOs are men, because it's always been that way. Many senior politicians are men, (often from the wealthy upper-middle class from the right schools) because it's always been that way, and women who dare to break into the "boys club" face a tremendously difficult task.
re: Gender pay gap. What is your opinion of it?
By Chaconnemember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 6359, member since Thu Jul 12, 2007
On Wed Oct 16, 2013 09:00 PM
I saw the sea change in the government and knew personally the woman who was the catalyst for change. When I started in government in 1964, most women were secretaries or clerks. We were just starting to get major hiring of college graduate women. The pay was skewed downward by the shear number of women in these lower paying fields and their relative absence in the managerial arena. There were exceptions even then we had three women, all competent, who marched in lock-step from GS-2 clerks (in cryptography) during WW II to the 2nd highest rung of the Civil Service at the time. But they were the only three. One of them was my first "big boss" about four steps up the food chain from where I was at the time. She and the other two each had about 2000 people working for them. One was eventually promoted to the top Civil Service rank (and eventually became the Deputy Director of my agency, our highest civilian position. The Director is always a General or Admiral.) The other two retired immediately. As the first real batch of women, hired with me, moved up in rank, we had a famous case wherein a talented woman analyst was in line to be promoted from GS-11 to GS-12, a normal progression for a college graduate with about 6 to 8 years of experience. A man, without a college degree got the promotion, and she challenged the decision maker for that promotion who told her "well he has four kids at home." She went ballistic and sued the Director of the Agency (actually a very nice guy and quite progressive, and totally unwitting to the situation in this instance.) At great personal financial and emotional expense (she was divorced during this time, largely because of her crusade) she got the case to Federal Court who ruled in her favor, ordered the promotion, back pay and all legal expenses, and ordered the agency to establish promotion boards with female and minority representation and all promotions to be reviewed by the judge. We by then had adequate numbers of women in position of skill, achievement, and training that they were poised to go into higher grade positions. (This was, BTW in the mid-1970s.) No longer could a supervisor give a promotion to his buddies. By the time I retired in 1999 over half of the supervisory people were female, minorities were in higher positions commensurate with their numbers in the population. And the glass ceiling was largely broken except in some of the engineering fields where women were always underrepresented. (This is changing.) The relative pay for women in the agency went up dramatically in good part because the non-professional jobs such as secretaries (almost exclusively female up to that point) were eliminated as every employee had a word processing computer on his or her desk and was told to type their own stuff, and if they didn't know how to type, learn how pronto. We had computer based self study for that. [I loved it, I could type faster than most secretaries and didn't have to write my drafts by hand, have them typed, proof them and have final copy made.] So we had female professionals in greater percentages relative to the total female population, and with pay and grade equivalents to their male compatriots and pretty close to 50-50 representation in managerial and senior technical positions.

Sadly, the lady who started all this, although she did advance to a much higher position, didn't live to see this greater degree of equality for she died of cancer about 15 years later. She is ensconced in my agency's "Hall of Fame" as one of the most influential persons in the history of US Cryptology.

Jon
re: Gender pay gap. What is your opinion of it?
By Heartmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 15032, member since Thu Feb 14, 2002
On Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:42 PM
The gender pay gap is very, very, small, if it even exists anymore. It is nearly infinitesimal.

When controls are in place for choices such as education, career choice, and so on, the "discriminatory" wage gape shrinks to around 5-7%. This difference can be explained by simple career choices - women choose to go into lower-paying careers than men, and if men in those careers are being paid the same, there is no gap to speak of. The gap is actually close enough that we can't test accurately enough to be sure it even exists at all.

Again: the wage gap is not .77 cents on the dollar. When properly controlled, it is much smaller than that.

This isn't random unsourced crap -- the government is well aware that "the gap" is smaller. In my opinion, it's quite intentionally left around as a talking point.

It's way past my bedtime and I need to turn it in, so I don't have time to source this correctly, but from what I can see the Wiki article on this is pretty good. This is a popular piece on it, and this has as much eloquence as a battleaxe, but gets the job done.

My personal favorite zinger (from Wiki):

Economist June O'Neill, former director of the Congressional Budget Office, found an unexplained pay gap of 8% after controlling for experience, education, and number of years on the job. Furthermore, O'Neil found that among young people who have never had a child, women's earnings approach 98 percent of men's.


Boo yah, childfree lifestyle.


TL;DR Controlling is not that hard, statistics used are purposely misleading, and "unexplained" does NOT equal discrimination.
re: Gender pay gap. What is your opinion of it?
By slice Comments: 1247, member since Fri Oct 15, 2004
On Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:05 AM
Edited by slice (109495) on 2013-10-17 00:19:19 added some more
^Which is why these conversations need an intersectional approach that takes into account more than just gender. The gender split is really on useful if we're talking about white men and white women. Otherwise, taking all men and all women as a whole completely erases other wage discrepancies that are exacerbated but not solely caused by gender.

Edit: I also think some of these controls are the very figures we should be questioning. Namely, why is it that women are more likely to go into lower paying fields and careers? Is it because we like making less money? Heh, somehow I don't think so. Why is it that they're as a whole working less hours? Is it because we're lazy and don't like to work as much? Again, not so sure about that one. Just the fact that being a childless woman makes a notable difference (whereas, can the same be said between men with and without children?) highlights that a nearly or in fact nonexistent wage gap doesn't mean the conversation is closed. Albeit, perhaps the rhetoric around the conversation needs to be changed (however "wage gap" and "pay gap" are prevalent enough as to signal pretty quickly what discussions like these are about, a plus for journalists and forum posters alike ;) ).
re: Gender pay gap. What is your opinion of it?
By lux Comments: 1178, member since Mon Jun 02, 2008
On Thu Oct 17, 2013 05:38 AM
YumYumDoughnut wrote:

My post was in direct communication for the belittling that lux did. I am not a moron, don't speak to me as if I am.


Lauren, I'm sorry that you felt my post was a swipe at your intelligence. I realise I'm well behind the times with my response to this thread (blame the time difference), but I do hope you come back and read this.

Undermining your intelligence was the last thing I was trying to do. I'm very aware of what a smart young woman you are. I've seen many intelligent contributions you've made within this community, and I'm aware of your business school success. From my limited knowledge of business degrees, success for those studying them requires an ability to think flexibly and laterally, along with a great deal of reasoning and logic.

That's why it baffles me that you so often miss the (often very eloquently stated) point that people are trying to make in this thread and others- not because I don't think you're highly intelligent, but because I do. I wasn't calling you stupid- I guess I just wonder whether someone so smart could truly be missing such clear points, unless they were doing so intentionally.

YumYumDoughnut wrote:

Ever dealt with a woman with beauty and brains?


I've been thinking long and hard about how to respond to this. My initial response was incredibly sarcastic, my second response was a (DDN-censored) summary of my thoughts on reading this sentence, and your other comments along the same lines.

But from the little I know about you, I do feel that your heart is in the right place, and I don't think you actually realise how incredibly catty, arrogant, stuck-up and flat out unkind these types of comments come across.

I'm not saying any of this to be an asshole, but purely to point out that, as a stranger on the internet who genuinely has very little idea of what you look like, I am not judging you on your appearance. I'm judging you by your words, and that kind of attitude- "I'm beautiful, I'm thin, I'm clever, who the hell are you?" (and no, Lauren, I'm not saying you typed these words, but to me, this is how your posts towards me in this thread come across) -just makes you seem mean. I don't think you are.

You need to be so, SO careful of this kind of attitude. I'm no-one to you, but if you carry on in your day-to-day life like this, one day you're going to deeply upset a friend, get a coworker off side or lose the respect of an employer. It's very easy for us to see cattiness in others, and assume it's intentional. It's a lot harder to recognize it, unintended, in ourselves.
re: Gender pay gap. What is your opinion of it?
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8688, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Thu Oct 17, 2013 07:11 AM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-10-17 07:20:09
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-10-17 07:34:18
^ Lux. I can see where you are coming from. Although I am catty at times, I want to be honest. In the past, you have been making snipes about my lifestyle and intelligence. Even if you didn't mean to make those comments now, I guess I was projecting from the past when you have insulted me. You were extremely sarcastic to me in the past, and I haven't forgotten that. I forgive but ALWAYS remember things people say to me, I guess I have a photographic memory but with words.

I never compared my work as a promo girl as being in corporate America, yet you seemed to imply that I said I was. I'm not that stupid, so I was insulted that you thought I would come up with something so stupid in the first place.

So if you felt insulted, that's probably why. Glad you clarified though. I think maybe we should both start up on a different foot and I personally need to make an effort to let to of the past.
Sorry for snapping at you.

And to clarify the whole " beauty and brains" thing. I have no idea what kind of degree you have and you could be Miss America for all I know. You COULD be beauty and brains too, I did not mean it like " who do you think I am". If I said it in real life, it wouldn't have sounded catty, because my tone wouldn't have been catty.
Although all my friends know they are gorgeous, smart, kind and they have confidence to the moons. So if any one of us said something like that, we would probably just laugh. The line between arrogance and confidence is a fine line, but you need a little of both to " make it" in the entertainment industry. Not always, but at least in my experience,the humble girl never got a gig over me.

Which in turn, probably makes me a egotistical asshole, but people already know that ;)
re: Gender pay gap. What is your opinion of it?
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8688, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Thu Oct 17, 2013 07:51 AM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-10-17 07:54:34 Double post
Double post
re: Gender pay gap. What is your opinion of it?
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8688, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Thu Oct 17, 2013 07:53 AM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-10-17 08:07:38
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-10-17 08:35:32 Something added after edit
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-10-17 08:46:52 Link doesnt work , try again
Moving right along....

I was taught as a child that confrontation was bad, I should be " nice" and womanlike. Being loud and confrontational was a manly characteristic. I can't be the only one who was brought up with the idea that being confrontational and stirring the calm water wasn't a good trait for women to have. Plus, having an asian mother who valued the role of a wife in the household. Feminism didn't hit asian when my mom was growing up.
I was taught in business school that you should even apply to jobs if you aren't qualified. You should go to as many interviews as you can, even outside your field. You should negotiate a salary and never settle for a number you aren't happy with. What's the worst they can say? " NO".
You should be hustling like there is no tomorrow and treat men like your own peers. So many people ( men and women) are risk averse and they patiently waiting to get noticed. You gotta talk yourself up to the big bosses. No one keeps score of your accomplishments except yourself. Don't be a doormat for anyone, you take credit for your work.

I asked why someone would interview for a job they didn't want, because it would take away from people who really wanted it. My professors told me " who the hell cares, why are you worrying about others. It isn't your problem, other people aren't paying you paycheck. The world is unfair, they can go cry on their pillow at night"

It is a possibility that the gender gap will become smaller as our generation hits the work force, at the very least, the next generation of women. Being confrontational and assertive doesn't seem to have the negative stigma for women that it used to have when I was growing up.

As someone even said on this thread, men tend to over inflate their resumes, and someone's husband was given a raise even though they didnt have as much experience as others. Maybe if women took that attitude that the men have, we would have more women in higher powered positions.

Also remember, you are interviewing a company just as much as they are interviewing you for a position. If you don't like the salary of benefits, you should speak up before papers are signed. Interviews aren't a one way street, it is your chance to sell yourself and shine. Talk about how you grew your company before, people hiring care about the bottom line and numbers. ( in business, probably different for nurses, teachers, cops etc)

Edit\
www.dailymail.co.uk . . .

According to this article, they mentioned that "ugly" women who were afraid they couldn't find husbands went into careers. Obviously it is flawed logic and it is biased, but it got me thinking about something.

Society doesn't frown on woman not working, and staying in the home raising children. Maybe the lack of high paid jobs can be explained with the fact that woman don't NEED those jobs if they are going to have double income due to marriage and their husband makes a good living.You don't need a high paying executive job, if your husband is making a good salary.Even if you both have crappy paying jobs, you guys will have double income in a marriage VS one crappy job.
For people not wanting to get married, feel like they can't find a spouse, or people who can't get married due to laws against gay marriage....it automatically puts them in a one income household.
Men aren't displayed in a positive light if they say that they want to stay home with the kids and live off their wives income.

Is it possible that woman are using marriage as a way to "fall back" if their high paying career somehow doesn't work out? If they have a partner, neither one needs to be making huge amounts of money because double the income allows them to live comfortably, but if you didn't have a partner, you couldn't make it on one income.

Men are socially expected to be the bread winners, so they feel like they need a good salary to attract a woman and raise a family with her. Women usually value security and want a man who can provide for his family. You can aruge all you want, but if there were 2 men who had the same exact personality and looks, one was broke and the other lived comfortably, who would you want to have children with?
For me, I would want the guy with a job, so he and I can work to give our children a good future and pay for their college.
re: Gender pay gap. What is your opinion of it?
By imadanseurPremium member Comments: 16604, member since Thu Dec 04, 2003
On Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:37 AM
Edited by imadanseur (79325) on 2013-10-17 11:40:41 ..
Being loud and confrontational was a manly characteristic. I can't be the only one who was brought up with the idea that being confrontational and stirring the calm water wasn't a good trait for women to have.


But you are like this on ddn a lot, so are you saying you ignored how you were raised, or you think you aren't confrontational?

I asked why someone would interview for a job they didn't want, because it would take away from people who really wanted it. My professors told me " who the hell cares, why are you worrying about others. It isn't your problem, other people aren't paying you paycheck. The world is unfair, they can go cry on their pillow at night"


If you apply for a job you don't want, get it, and turn it down it looks VERY bad and since companies talk and a few people get word that you do this, it will be committing professional suicide in my opinion.

Maybe the lack of high paid jobs can be explained with the fact that woman don't NEED those jobs if they are going to have double income due to marriage and their husband makes a good living.You don't need a high paying executive job, if your husband is making a good salary.


It is really crappy that women have to settle for relying on their husband and they have to pick having a family over a career and men don't have to do that. Rarely can women have both.

but if there were 2 men who had the same exact personality and looks, one was broke and the other lived comfortably, who would you want to have children with?


Why does it boil down to who you want to have children with? I don't have kids and when I was 31 and looking for a guy to marry I wasn't going out with someone who didn't have a job or an education. I wanted a guy that was going to be a good partner financially as well as having other characteristics because that makes life a little easier especially when we want to retire.

The gender pay gap is very, very, small, if it even exists anymore. It is nearly infinitesimal.


No they just disguise it better. My husband works in a male dominated field. Do women equal to him get asked to go out on company golf outings? Are they offered box seats to sporting events or do they get tickets to concerts at the rate my husband does? NOPE! When a headhunter is looking for another person to fill a sales job did they even look for a woman? No, they were only looking for males but they would never admit that. They have their token women and one of them out sells the men and wins every cruise or sales prize and she is still treated like a red-headed step child. So I'm thinking that maybe someone that isn't actually working in corporate America and has spent most of their time in school has a completely different view and can tell all the rest of us how silly we are being for talking about pay gaps.

In the architecture firm I worked for, the one female was brilliant, and yet she 75% of jobs than the males. They placed people with the job they thought would fit best. (Meaning if a client had all male staff and the contractors etc didn't want to work with a woman she wasn't up for the job.) She got the same pay...but not the same amount of work that DID affect her pay. Seriously we are not equal in the work force.
re: Gender pay gap. What is your opinion of it?
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8688, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:29 PM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-10-17 12:36:17
^ I ignored how I was raised after about 13/14. I became to value debate, having my opinion heard and being confrontational in a polite way to get what I wanted. I didn't want to fit in a pretty little box the way I was raised.

Renae, I only brought up the " child" thing because people mentioned that I was career suicide if they had children , and there wasn't as much of a gap if women decided not to have children.

As for interviewing with different companies, I'm sure that word can get around but to honest, there are thousand of companies in silicion valley and EVERY place needs a business manager whether it is a dance studio, walmart or an eingineering firm. Also, people change jobs frequently and I think I remember hearing that people change jobs every 4/5 years in this area, and it isn't looked down on. With so many businesses starting up and failing in this area, it isn't rare to see a bunch of jobs on a persons resume.
Of course if it is a stable company like Google, I don't see why anyone would want to leave and those people probably have loyalty.
Plus a bunch of people are leaving companies and starting their own business here, it is a melting pot of startups. I probably wouldn't recommend it outside of this area, but I did go to business school here and I was advised this is how it works in Silicon Valley and San Francisco by my professors who all worked for big firms.

I agree that it isn't fair that women can't chose to have both but men can, on the other hand, society is extremely rough to men who chose to not work. I'm not sure if it is like this in all society, but where I was raised, if a man dated a woman for his " security" he was seen as someone who couldn't be the breadwinner for the family. Men are forced to NEED careers if they want a shot with a woman like you Renae. As you said, you did consider the financial security in your husband and people you dated.
I'm sure you didn't have financial security that your husband did, but he still married you, which leads me to think that women value security way more then men do.
Heck I'm a dance teacher so I don't have financial security anymore, but thankfully my bf isn't look for a woman with financial security. I am hypocritical but I am thankful I am not being judged on my financial security, yet if my Bf wanted to date me he would have had to have a job. A double standard for sure.

Thank about it, if a man decided to leave his high paying executive job to follow his passion in a minimum wage job, many people will give him a sideways look. If a woman decided to leave to raise a child, start a flowers shop, or decided to be a stay at home wife no one would question her in the way they would a man.

I think this is why more men go into higher paying fields. They NEED to be in these higher paying fields to be accepted into society as a " real man" who can provide for his family.
re: Gender pay gap. What is your opinion of it?
By imadanseurPremium member Comments: 16604, member since Thu Dec 04, 2003
On Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:38 PM
My husband most certainly did look at what I had for debt, my education, the money I made etc. That was all very relevant, and when we got together my husband made 5 times what I did...and then he was laid off my a large corporation, and what I did and how I expanded my business helped get us through many many months. We couldn't live on either one of our salaries alone, but I guarantee my husband wasn't going to date someone that had no potential to make a good living at that point in his life.

I agree society places a lot of pressure on men...having a good job, providing for his household etc and if they do choose to be a dad and not move up the corporate ladder they aren't taken seriously. However, they still get more respect and have more opportunities than women especially minority women, and if people think that isn't true you are smoking crack.
re: Gender pay gap. What is your opinion of it?
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8688, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:41 PM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-10-17 12:44:43
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-10-17 12:48:29 Spelling mistakes. I am on my phone here ugh.
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-10-17 13:19:28 Edit
^ I agree.

I guess what I am saying is that society puts a lot of pressure in men to be the breadwinners, should his wife chose to stay home with kids and the family turns to a one income household. I brought this up, because someone mentioned that men go towards higher paid careers, vs women who stay in lower paying careers.
This is a possible explanation on men being conditioned to want those jobs if he wants a family.
How can a man working minimum wage support a stay at home mom on his McDonald's salary?
My neighborhood has plenty of women who chose to be stay at home moms, yet they are allowed that opportunity because they married men with stable careers with high enough of a pay to be a one income family.

If I was born a man, there would be no way I make enough money as a dance teacher to support a stay at home wife and children. I would have been FORCED to get more education and get a better paying job that had more hours. I am thankful to be a woman because that means I can work as a dance teacher and chose to be a stay at home mom in the future, without society making me feel like a failure.

www.nytimes.com . . .

Just a link providing that job hopping in Silicion Valley is what creates innovation and people hop around way more here, so you don't think I'm actually crazy ;)


Edit

As you said, your husband made 5 times more initially. Of course men do value woman who can make a living and provide for the family. Sure, can we live off my income for a while, yes. But we wouldn't have enough retirement saved up, have lots of children all with college funds etc.

My point is, it sucks that women aren't in more high paying careers,but on the other hand, society doesn't frown in women who chose NOT to have careers. They have more options in terms of deciding to stay at home or not without society labeling them as a failure.

As for women in the same career and still not getting paid the same, that really sucks. All I am talking about is male attraction toward higher paying careers that was brought up earlier.
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