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re: Should a childless employee trade off with someone for Christmas?
By Josianemember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 1643, member since Sun Nov 06, 2005
On Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:21 AM
Yes, I'd feel very sad if I didn't get to spend Christmas with my family for the next 45 years. Maybe what they need to change is how they schedule the whole thing. Does everyone has to be there on Christmas? Probably not. Maybe they could take turns. Or maybe they can choose between Thanksgiving or Christmas. I have more sympathy with people who work retail because it's not an essential service. I do not have to shop for a TV on Thanksgiving and I can buy my food in advance. However, my heart cannot wait for proper care if I have a heart attack. My house cannot wait if it's on fire. A murderer cannot run free even if it's Christmas.
re: Should a childless employee trade off with someone for Christmas?
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8688, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:30 AM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-11-22 10:33:34
Josiane, that is what I think too. They should officially change the scheduling system. The problem is, you can't just go changing the system. That's like people signing up in retails and being forced to work Holidays at the last minute, when it wasn't part of the deal.
The cops put in their time until 45ish, and now, you switch it up, right when they were about to get the fruits of their labor. They put in their time to the system, so changing it wouldn't be fair.
So the cops 45-60 years of age, officially didn't have Christmas before. Now because of the new rule, they have to share Christmas due to rule changes.
You can't change the system without screwing over the 45-60 age group.

The funny thing is, the people all do it at an informal level too. Everyone works together to make sure everyone gets the 3rd Christmas off for example. They also try to informally schedule it so if someone works Christmas Eve, they get Christmas Day off. The majority of people work together to make sure that the system is " fair" even if the official system is crap.
re: Should a childless employee trade off with someone for Christmas?
By Meganmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 12956, member since Wed Mar 17, 2004
On Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:32 AM
But Lauren, in your example with someone not getting Christmas off for 20 years wouldn't happen in a fair rotation. Everyone would work some and get some off, sharing the burden equally. And that's how it should be.

Even when I was bartending, our system allowed for this. You were guaranteed one of Christmas Eve, Boxing Day, New Years Eve, or New Years Day off (your choice) but had to be available for the other days. It gave a bit of flexibility and a fair chance for everyone.

I also have to agree that we as a society haven't made an agreement to provide all kids with a "magical Christmas." I don't owe it to my neighbours to put up lights or my coworkers to make sure they are home on a certain day. Everyone celebrates or doesn't in their own way and other people's actions shouldn't affect your celebration.

My birthday is Christmas Eve, but my family had to find a way to make it special despite the fact that it got ignored by everyone else in favour of Christmas. Did their friends and extended family owe me a magical birthday? Nope. So they did what they could in the given parameters. Much like people on shift work have too. It's still Christmas if you open gifts on another day or see your family later in the week.
re: Should a childless employee trade off with someone for Christmas?
By Josianemember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 1643, member since Sun Nov 06, 2005
On Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:39 AM
^Exactly. I celebrate Christmas on 8 different days (yay for divorced parents on both sides) and every one of them feels like Christmas even if it's not December 25th. I have always opened my presents on December 24th in the morning with my parents because we had so much to do on the 25th. I thought it was normal and it truly felt magical. My parents told me that we were scheduled early on Santa's itinerary because, HOW is he gonna be able to see every child if he only has one day. It made sense. I also always celebrate my birthday weeks later because everyone is on vacation in August. You can find a way to make it work. Especially if it's once every 2-3 years.
re: Should a childless employee trade off with someone for Christmas?
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8688, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:44 AM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-11-22 10:53:25
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-11-22 10:59:05
^ I agree with that Megan. I do feel that rotation would be the fairest way.
My point is, not all places operate on a rotation basis.

So knowing that most people between 21-45 years of age don't get Christmas Eve or Christmas Day off, should people trade with them once in a while so they get to spend it with their kids some years?

This is just my personal opinion and I am not saying people are bad for doing this. Most people just stay with the department for 30-40 years.

So young people should be given the day off to spend with the kids. Once their children are grown, they can pay it forward by giving the new younger generation the days off too. It is just a cycle. So Jim gets the years of 30-40 off for Christmas....so when he becomes 50, he volunteers his shift so that Jimmy JR also gets his time off between 30-40.

It isn't fair that the new people can't even get vacation time around the Holidays. Forget about taking your kids to grandpa and grandma for the Holidays. Unless someone switched with them, the children would NEVER be able to visit family outside if the state during Christmas.

That is what I meant by the " magical" Christmas. I don't mean christmas light or some type of consumerism product. I mean being able to travel to visit grandma and grandpa, spend time with parents. I childhood without EVER being able to do that is a very sad one in my opinion, at, my bfs department , unless you have kids in your 40's, your children officially will never be able to travel during the Holidays to visit family.

I guess I am arguing for a specific case with my Bf, but the majority of the work force doesn't work this way. So carry on with the debate, in the original argument Disregard my examples because it doesn't work that way for most individuals.

I totally took my own thread on a hijack with my own personal examples, and I am sorry for that.

For most people, I think people should have the choice of having either Thanksgiving, Christmas or Christmas Eve off. That way parents can see which Holiday is the most important for their children, and childless people can also figuring out which days to spend with their families. I think this would be the fairest way.

Back to the original point.

re: Should a childless employee trade off with someone for Christmas?
By UberGoobermember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 6414, member since Sat May 15, 2004
On Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:58 AM
Edited by UberGoober (93585) on 2013-11-22 11:00:19
Still doesn't work. Where do people like to go on Christmas? Their parents' home who are now grandparents. But now the parents have the day off but grandparents of the child will never according to your plan.

EDIT: leaving the above but really misread your post.

I'm in healthcare and most places tend to have a rotational holiday schedule, which I believe is most fair. Knowing the career I am pursuing, I know that I am guaranteed to work at least some holidays and my children will be raised with the idea that even though mommy loves them and wishes she could play with them Christmas morning sometimes she has has to take care of mommies and babies who are sick. Or we will just choose to celebrate on Christmas Eve or the 26th and we will make it just as special as a family.
re: Should a childless employee trade off with someone for Christmas?
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8688, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:07 AM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-11-22 11:11:23
Speaking of rotation schedule, who gets first pick at certain holidays or vacations in general? Should it be due to time working in the company? If so, you would never move up the ladder to ever get your first pick until that person leaves the company.
What if it is a retail position and new people come in each year...and there isn't really a " who's been here the longest".

Lets say that EVERYONE wants Christmas off and everyone is willing to work Thanksgiving.

What do you think is the fairest way of letting people pick vacation times and day off?
re: Should a childless employee trade off with someone for Christmas? (karma: 1)
By ChristinePremium member Comments: 6817, member since Wed Feb 04, 2009
On Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:20 AM
I'm late to this discussion so please forgive me if I missed something on the last two pages.

I think that just because someone doesn't have their own children doesn't mean that their physical presence isn't just as important to anyone else at this time of year. Everyone is someone's child or grandchild or niece or nephew to a childless adult. I dare say, even as a mother of seven and a grandmother of five, childless children have just as many familial obligations to the heartstrings of their families as those of us with children.

If you are able to give someone else a day off, by all means be generous. But don't discount your own value in your extended family.

Keep On Dancing*
re: Should a childless employee trade off with someone for Christmas?
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8688, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:31 AM
Thanksgiving, Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, Easter, New Years.

Lets say that 5 people work in a group, and they need 4/5 people to run the operation, so they decide to do a rotation where everyone gets 1 Holiday off. They are on a 3 year contract, so they can't rotate all 5 times fairly. They all want the same exact Holiday off.

Let's say company policy has nothing to do with this scenario and they leave it up to the individuals. For the sake of debate, how would you make this the most fair?
re: Should a childless employee trade off with someone for Christmas?
By LlamaLlamaDuckmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 7765, member since Sun Nov 21, 2004
On Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:35 AM
The doctors office I worked in was open 364 days a year. At the beginning of each year we had to pick 3 holidays to work on each year. One was expected to be around Christmas.
re: Should a childless employee trade off with someone for Christmas?
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8688, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:16 PM
Josaine, I don't have any more sympathy for people who work non essential services. I feel like it doesn't matter if the job title is essential or not. People in essential careers also have families, regardless of essential or not.

For me, I feel sympathetic towards ANYONE working in a Holiday. The retail clerk or the emergency room doctor. It sucks for everyone involved.
re: Should a childless employee trade off with someone for Christmas?
By pharmadancermember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 3459, member since Tue Mar 16, 2004
On Fri Nov 22, 2013 01:02 PM
I worked at a 24/7 call centre for a bank, where the holidays were handled quite fairly. They would cut back the required staff, since the volume of calls were reduced on the holidays, and ask for volunteers (who would get paid double time). If enough people volunteered, then they didn't have to worry. If not enough people volunteered, they would have to request each team get one or two people to work (either by a lottery system or by looking at who worked the last holiday). The work was spread out fairly, and usually they never had to go to the draft.

I don't think it's fair that childless people get penalized - just like the majority of the commenters on this thread. Most workplaces have systems in place to ensure that the holidays get spread out fairly equally, and people have the ability to trade off if they'd like to give those with children an added bonus.
re: Should a childless employee trade off with someone for Christmas?
By Josianemember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 1643, member since Sun Nov 06, 2005
On Fri Nov 22, 2013 01:41 PM
YYD, I think you totally misunderstood what I was trying to say. Of course, I am sympathetic with everyone who has to work on a holiday. I said numerous times that it really sucks to work on Christmas. It's just that in my opinion, retail workers should not even work on holidays because it's a holiday. Basically, if a job is non essential, you don't work. That's how it works in my country. Nothing is opened on Christmas Day (and other national holidays like St-Jean-Baptiste and New Years Day for example). Even essential services work with very little staff or close earlier than usual. (drugstores and walk in clinic close around 4-5). That's why I do have more sympathy for retail workers who have to work on a holiday because nobody is gonna die if they can't shop on Christmas. However, I do also feel bad for police officers, doctors, nurses, etc who have to do it. Who wouldn't?? But until the fire decides to take a day off or viruses decide they'll leave us alone for that day, these people are gonna have to work.
re: Should a childless employee trade off with someone for Christmas?
By Kekoamember has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 8949, member since Sat Jul 19, 2003
On Fri Nov 22, 2013 01:44 PM
This whole thread makes me happy I've chosen a career in academia. Not only does everything shut down for actual holidays, we operate on reduced hours the whole month of winter break.

My dad was gone one Christmas for work (deployed). It sucked, but my mom worked to make it special nonetheless. The unfortunate reality is that not everything can shut down on holidays. Medical workers, police, firemen, military etc. can't just shut down for a day. People know that going into it. If someone decides to skip out on their own family for Christmas and take a younger person's shift, that is great! Wonderful karma points! But everyone deserves the same crack at holidays off.
re: Should a childless employee trade off with someone for Christmas?
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8688, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Fri Nov 22, 2013 01:50 PM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-11-22 14:01:44
Josaine,I totally did misunderstand what you were saying! I know some people don't feel sorry for those professions because " they chose it" so they don't deserve sympathy. Thanks for clarifying.

Keoka, that's exactly what I am trying to say. I feel that it does deserve karma points. I am not talking about making it mandatory business policy. I was just wondering if people thought it was more morally nice if people chose to volunteer the time. You said " it's great, they deserve karma points". I happen to think so too.
Some people apparently don't think it is a great thing and other people's kids aren't there problem and there is no benefit. I was just curious to how other people felt about this.

I think it's beneficial, but I totally respect that people don't think it is valuable.

I am NOT talking about people don't switch, but I am noticing a growing trendy in " hating" on children. People in real life I know constantly complain about kids, how people should be sterile, and how it isn't their problem if people chose to have kids, how children are basically the spawn of the devil. People like these people obviously don't see a benefit for children's happiness. You personally don't need to switch, but do you guys have sympathy and karma points for people who volunteer to switch? Do you see it as a good thing?

Some people like Amy feel that people are " suckers" for volunteering to switch to help children. I don't think they are suckers, but they are committing an honorable act, the opposite of being a " sucker".
re: Should a childless employee trade off with someone for Christmas?
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8688, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Fri Nov 22, 2013 02:13 PM
I guess in a nutshell here is my beliefs, and if you don't agree with them, that's fine.

I feel that anyone volunteering to work a Holiday should be admired and they should get rewarded with Holiday pay, double pay, overtime pay etc etc. I do think it is beneficial to be thankful to people who volunteer to switch.
As I said on a previous debate about Black Friday, I do feel that people should get benefits for volunteering to work a Holiday.

Other people say " they chose to go into a career, deal with it or switch your goddamn job". I happen to give my sympathy to people who have to work Holidays and I think they should get rewarded.

I just find it so unkind that some people are just like " Your kids ain't my problem, you shouldn't have popped them out, you are a sucker if you chose to trade with someone".

Not sure if anyone gets what I am saying, but I do feel that people are " better" people if they admire or at least have sympathy for parents who need to work on the Holidays instead of blaming them for having their kids/careers.
re: Should a childless employee trade off with someone for Christmas? (karma: 3)
By Louisemember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 17315, member since Thu Jun 06, 2002
On Fri Nov 22, 2013 02:18 PM
Nobody disagrees that volunteering is a nice thing to do (so long as they aren't doing it just to sneer at others who aren't as "good" as they are). People just don't think there should be an expectation - an unwritten rule - that says people should volunteer if they really don't want to. Volunteering can be optional, but there are still going to be people who try to make others feel guilty for not offering to take the shift and that's fundamentally not fair because (you might not like this phrase but its true) people chose to combine these types of careers with parenthood. You can't say "I don't think it should be mandatory to switch shifts" and then simultaneously say that people are horribly selfish for not volunteering. It becomes hollow. Volunteering is like a gift and its ALWAYS optional.
re: Should a childless employee trade off with someone for Christmas?
By majeremember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 5889, member since Sat Sep 29, 2007
On Fri Nov 22, 2013 02:24 PM
YumYumDoughnut wrote:



People have different priorities, and for me, children having a special time with their parents is a lot more important then Mass, Adult Christmas, etc. It's ok that we all feel differently about it.


I've read the whole thread and this is the only thing I have a problem with. Children having "special time" with parents is more important than being able to attend Mass on a Holy Day of Obligation, if they people in question are religious? I have missed Mass on holy days of obligation before, because of work, but Christmas and Easter are different, I am sure that if you are a cop, firefighter or doctor/nurse etc. God will understand.

However, if someone who is Christian and has no children switches shifts and has to miss Christmas Eve or Christmas Day Mass (either one is fine, you don't have to do both)/ or whatever the service is called for their denomination. So that a person who has children but is not religious and doesn't attend church or doesn't celebrated Christmas for what it is, that is messed up. And I am going to stop there, because I probably already said too much.

In my work situation I will never have to work on a federal holiday.
re: Should a childless employee trade off with someone for Christmas?
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8688, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Fri Nov 22, 2013 02:27 PM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-11-22 14:30:05
Louise actually some people DO agree that volunteering isn't good. Hence, the start of this thread, they see no need for it and is a waste of time. Let me remind you, Amy called someone a " sucker" if they chose to volunteer to switch. Also may I point out the thread that people argued that retail workers should work Thanksgiving and NOT get paid extra because it is " their job". So no, not everyone sees volunteering to switch as a positive thing. That's my whole freaking point in the past few hours. I think switching your shift is an admirable thing and others think it is stupid and useless.

I don't think people should feel the need to volunteer, but I do think people are selfish if they " poo poo" the idea of switching and they think people NEED to work all Holidays because they chose the career.

majere, I would absolutely switch with someone who told me they have religious thins to do. As an Atheist, I don't need to attend Mass. But of course, someone would probably think I am a sucker and stupid for switching.
re: Should a childless employee trade off with someone for Christmas?
By slice Comments: 1247, member since Fri Oct 15, 2004
On Fri Nov 22, 2013 02:28 PM
Edited by slice (109495) on 2013-11-22 14:30:39 typos, typos everywhere!
I don't see them as suckers, I see it as a nice, charitable thing to do. I'm not sure if I can say I have sympathy for them since that sort of defeats the affective point of doing a good deed. Sort of akin to Louise's point about volunteering being a freely given gift. If the powers that be decide to bestow good karma on these folks, then that's awesome.

But I don't think just because someone has children that their holiday season takes precedence over anybody else's. There are many many reasons why certain individuals do not have children; and there are many many individuals who would love to have a child but are unable to do so. Imagine telling that person that they need to work no matter what so that actual parents can spend time with their children... yeah, I'm not about that.

YYD, I don't know if "child hating" is a trend so much as we're now at an age where having children and starting a family is a viable option for our peers, so you're more privy to discussions around children where people might be voicing less than favorable opinions. We're also in a time where many more couples are childless as a matter of choice, rather than happenstance. However, these couples still face stigma and may be constantly compelled to justify their choice to parties who won't listen. I can imagine that would get pretty draining. So a combination of both, I think, may make it seem like everybody just hates children nowadays.
re: Should a childless employee trade off with someone for Christmas?
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8688, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Fri Nov 22, 2013 02:32 PM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-11-22 14:33:38
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-11-22 14:38:46
Slice, no one is saying that anyone should tell childless people they should work because they don't have children. From the start I agree with that. It shouldn't even be a question that parents should be able to ask. I am appalled that people have the guts asking to switch, I am not in support of that at all.

Louise, which is also why I said it is a " gift". I agree with what you said 100%.

On the other side, I have people telling me that my Bf is a moron for not spending christmas with me, and obviously he doesn't truly love me. He is a moron for volunteering to switch so other kids can have Christmas with their family. They believe that children aren't worth much, and he should value Christmas more with me, then switching with his friends. I got crap about it from 2 of my peers. They said they would never chose to date someone for abandoning them on a Holiday he has off. I think it makes them selfish that they think like that, and they don't see it as a good thing that my BF switched.

So Louise, my point is that not everyone thinks that way you just said.

I just think volunteering to switch isn't this bad horrible thing, I think it's a nice things and it doesn't make anyone a sucker for doing so. You would think that's a given, but some people don't see it that way. Hence the debate.
re: Should a childless employee trade off with someone for Christmas?
By Louisemember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 17315, member since Thu Jun 06, 2002
On Fri Nov 22, 2013 02:34 PM
I don't tend to take anything EMT says about children or parents into consideration when reviewing the general consensus on threads pertaining to children and parents, to be honest. But regardless, I think yours reading too much into it. Just because people wouldn't volunteer themselves, doesn't mean they don't think it's a nice thing for others to do. If someone truly doesn't mind giving someone else a day off then fine - I see it like that crowd funding thread. I don't want to do it but if someone else wants to then that's their prerogative. So long as they then don't tell everyone how much awesome they are than other people. I don't go in for people making martyrs or themselves.
re: Should a childless employee trade off with someone for Christmas?
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8688, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Fri Nov 22, 2013 02:43 PM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-11-22 14:47:59
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-11-22 14:58:06
Louise, then we are in agreement. To be honest, I don't think EMT is in a minority with her views on children. A lot of people my age are VERY vocal against children on my FB feed. She represents a handful of people who dislike children.
Someone asked to switch seats with me because they hated kids and didnt want to sit next to one. I know some who openly dislike kids and they are cruel for no reason. Louise, didnt you have a story about how you got your hand stuck in a tie, and some adults was mean to you? I think may e with social media, people are just a lot more vocal about their dislike for children.

Hence why I brought up this debate. I am glad that some people still see it as a good thing that people are willing to switch so families can be with their children. I am not saying that people are selfish for not wanting to switch. I just think it is selfish that people think it is a NEGATIVE thing and call them " suckers".

Louise, you even said " I don't see why people should miss Holidays for children they never met". I thought when you said that ,you thought you didn't understand or care that people chose to switch. I thought you were saying that you didn't see the benefit for people doing that. People also keep saying " it isn't my job to make other children's christmas magical".
With you guys saying things like this, I thought you fell into the crowd of " I dislike kids, you shouldn't have been popping them out in the first place, go get your tubes tied ASAP!"

But now that I know that the majority of people feel that it is a good thing to switching there isn't much to debate anymore. I already said people should never feel pressured into it, nor should it be a policy...which people seem to ignore.
re: Should a childless employee trade off with someone for Christmas?
By slice Comments: 1247, member since Fri Oct 15, 2004
On Fri Nov 22, 2013 03:05 PM
Edited by slice (109495) on 2013-11-22 15:06:23
slice wrote:

I don't know if "child hating" is a trend so much as we're now at an age where having children and starting a family is a viable option for our peers, so you're more privy to discussions around children where people might be voicing less than favorable opinions. We're also in a time where many more couples are childless as a matter of choice, rather than happenstance. However, these couples still face stigma and may be constantly compelled to justify their choice to parties who won't listen. I can imagine that would get pretty draining. So a combination of both, I think, may make it seem like everybody just hates children nowadays.


Quoting myself, 'cause I think it got skipped over. The topic of social media is a good point as well. But just because people are able to be more vocal about their thoughts on children without penalty, doesn't mean we're now in the midst of a child hating culture. It's just more available for people to see.
re: Should a childless employee trade off with someone for Christmas?
By Louisemember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 17315, member since Thu Jun 06, 2002
On Fri Nov 22, 2013 03:21 PM
Perhaps I missed out the odd word then. "I don't see why people should feel like they have to miss Christmas to help out a kid they never met", or whatever (paraphrasing).

Also I can only reference what people have said on this thread - I can't reference what people have said to your bf (which by the way I think is incredibly rude of them). Like I said in one of my previous posts - I'm sure people whose loved ones are saving lives onChristmas are actually very proud of them for doing so, same as they're Proud of them for the other 364 days of the year. If you get negative comments then, if you choose to respond, that's all you have to say. I'm proud of his sacrifice.
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