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re: The need to breed, should people on gov. assistance continue to have kids? en>fr fr>en
By Kekoamember has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 8863, member since Sat Jul 19, 2003
On Sat Nov 23, 2013 09:57 PM
Nyssasistic wrote:

I typed out a long post about my personal experience with being pregnant and on medicaid, but couldn't bring myself to post it.

I think we need to realize a few things, though:

1. If you are on a significant amount of government assistance, you WILL have someone looking into your case quite often. It isn't really possible to cheat the system like everyone says- once you accept government assistance, you basically agree to have every area of your life privvy to the caseworkers that exist to make sure you don't STAY in the position where you need that government assistance in the long term.

2. That being said, you will also generally receive enough assistance to make sure you're living comfortably. People freak out over the fact that people on government assistance are usually provided with decent healthcare, a decent amount of food stamps, or a decent amount of housing assistance. it's okay for our government dollars to go to helping people live decently . I would never want my neighbor to live in abject poverty if they fell on hard times. I don't want those that I DON'T know living in poverty as a punishment for falling on hard times either.

3. "Breeding", as it's been so eloquently termed (because, you know, we as humans have as much dignity as any other animal and should be treated as such, right?), is a basic human right. SHOULD someone have a baby if they can't afford it? That isn't my right to determine. Should they have the RIGHT to have a child, regardless of their situation? Absolutely.

I don't bitch about how people that barely have money own god knows how many animals. I do take offense at the fact that those people seem to take every freaking opportunity available to whine about people having kids, though. I think the best solution would be to keep our noses out of other people's business because, frankly, no one has any right to tell someone else how to live their life.


I 100% agree with all of this. Childbearing is a short season of life. If a couple wants three children and they're on assistance temporarily (since it IS temporary for the overwhelming majority of recipients) while the third is born, I'm not concerned. Like KK said too, this is just a talking point. We are hemorrhaging money from other parts of the government budget. People who have such strong feelings about assistance can't be reasoned with. Awhile back, Florida did drug testing on welfare recipients and since only a tiny amount of recipients tested positive, the state lost a LOT of money on the cost of the tests. Doesn't matter, in the eyes of the anti-assistance. It isn't about saving money, it is about trying to punish and embarrass people.
re: The need to breed, should people on gov. assistance continue to have kids? (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By lux Comments: 1131, member since Mon Jun 02, 2008
On Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:17 PM
DancingEMT wrote:


Like I said, what if there wasn't any welfare? NO safety net. I highly doubt we'd see a bunch of kids stIf people knew they wouldn't be rewarded for being irresponsible, what would they do?


I really do not understand the assumption that those on assistance are less likely to become pregnant unintentionally than you (general you) or I.

When you bear in mind the correlation between education level and poverty, the suggestion that these people could simply choose not to fall pregnant seems even more ludicrous.

I wish I'd stop reading these threads. They make me so incredibly sad.
re: The need to breed, should people on gov. assistance continue to have kids? en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 7988, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:25 PM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-11-23 22:42:20
How can you even begin to compare tax fraud to welfare? With tax fraud people are keeping money they earn but with welfare fraud, they are taking other people's money.

I feel that people should received welfare IF they are working and they can't make ends meet. A dad working a minimum wage job and a mom having to stay home with the kids etc.

I feel that people receiving welfare should have mandatory work days once a month or once a week. The state can use maintenance, and if they are getting money from the state, they should have to give back to the state by cleaning the highways, working in food kitchens, working at at risk youth social programs. ( childcare will be provided on the premises, so single parents don't have excuses. Maybe educate a few welfare recipients and send them to CC for an early childhood education, and they can be in charge of childcare for those days)
If they already have a job, they are exempt from having to do the mandatory " work day".
The state basically becomes their "employer" a couple times a month.
My suggestions is only for healthy bodied people receiving welfare who doesn't work. It doesn't take into consideration disabled people or people already working 12 hour days and can't make ends meet.

I also feel that if you are receiving welfare, you need to go to school to get your education. Get a GED or maybe an AA from community college. I feel like sometimes people are stuck in a bad place because they lack the education to find a job.
re: The need to breed, should people on gov. assistance continue to have kids? en>fr fr>en
By imadanseurPremium member Comments: 16203, member since Thu Dec 04, 2003
On Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:26 PM
That being said, you will also generally receive enough assistance to make sure you're living comfortably. People freak out over the fact that people on government assistance are usually provided with decent healthcare, a decent amount of food stamps, or a decent amount of housing assistance. it's okay for our government dollars to go to helping people live decently . I would never want my neighbor to live in abject poverty if they fell on hard times. I don't want those that I DON'T know living in poverty as a punishment for falling on hard times either.


And the part that gets me nuts is when I fell on hard times I could get no assistance AT ALL! I made too much money, but not enough to pay rent, eat, pay my car payment (which got repossessed) and when I had cervical cancer I couldn't get access and $30,000 of medical bills fell upon me and that was after striking a deal with the doctors, hospital and going to county which was 40 miles from my house. To see someone living comfortably because they have a kid and get health care and food when I'm busting my ass and trying every trick to sneak food at various happy hours, crashing networking events, and even stealing food...well it is really really really is annoying.
re: The need to breed, should people on gov. assistance continue to have kids? (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By ChristinePremium member Comments: 6118, member since Wed Feb 04, 2009
On Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:47 PM
re: The need to breed, should people on gov. assistance continue to have kids? en>fr fr>en
By LoriCook Comments: 1465, member since Mon Aug 17, 2009
On Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:37 AM
The very title of this makes me disappointed. The need to breed? Seriously? What a terrible thing to say.

If my parents would have waited until they could afford children they would be childless as well as broke.

Should poverty stricken people continue to have children? Of course not. But the thing about humans is that we frequently do things we shouldn't and are judged harshly by our fellow man. What are we to do about it? Forcibly sterilize poor women?

There are always people who abuse systems set up by society. Some are rich, some are poor. That is the way it is. Government should help the majority, try to prevent abuse of the system and help educate people who are getting assistance. Very, very few people want to be on welfare without meaningful, productive jobs.

"Go get a job" is a cruel thing to say to someone who is undereducated and has children to care for. The job market isn't exactly begging for workers. By the time you pay for childcare so you can work your minimum wage job you are breaking even.

I had a child when I couldn't afford it. I had to go on welfare and WIC for awhile. I thought it was very humiliating but am glad I had to experience this so I am not so judgmental of others who find themselves in this situation.
re: The need to breed, should people on gov. assistance continue to have kids? en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 7988, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:52 AM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-11-24 01:03:23
As for the title, I think it is a great debate title although it would be offensive in any other area of DDN. It peaked people's interest and got them passionate about a topic, which makes for a very interesting debate.

I think welfare system does need an overhaul though, as Imadanseur said, people who need the aid sometimes doesn't get it. For example Fasfa which is aid for college tuition and expenses. It takes your parents income into consideration if you are under 24, even if they aren't contributing AT ALL to college.
I also know young females who live with their BF's and getting aid because they can afford to have her not working. He is rich enough to pay for her, so she can collect aid . As soon as they get married, it becomes household income, so they won't get married to their BF's.
At the same time, you have 2 young adults who are married and both working minimum wage jobs. They make a TINY bit too much over the limit so they are basically stuck in poverty.

It may be 1% of cheating, but what's the percentage of people living in poverty because of the messed up system and unable to get aid.


I personally feel like there should be a cap on getting more money because of children. For example, you get extra benefits for up to 4 kids, but after that, you get the same amount of income whether you have 4 kids or 12 kids. Having kids is a luxury in my mind, so I do think there should be a cap on income.

That being said,we need to make it easier to get abortions and the process of adoptions easier. It is almost impossible for gays to adopt kids and adoptions cost a lot of money.
It is stupid to be like " no, we don't approve for you to get an abortion, your child is a child in Gods eyes"... And then 9 months later " We don't support you for having a child and bleeding the system!"

If you don't have these women popping out children, you should give them options to make it easier for them NOT to keep that child,
re: The need to breed, should people on gov. assistance continue to have kids? en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 7988, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Sun Nov 24, 2013 01:13 AM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-11-24 01:19:00
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-11-24 01:23:15
Does anyone else find it ironic that prolife are against abortion and want that fetus to live. Once the fetus pops out of the womb, suddenly the baby is seen as a drain on welfare and the majority if prolife people don't want to provide support for that baby that was once a fetus that they were fighting for?

If prolife people are pressuring women to not get abortions they need to be willing to provide support for that child after birth. Prolife shouldn't mean letting a baby live for 9th month in the womb, then leaving it to a life of poverty.

Just saying.
re: The need to breed, should people on gov. assistance continue to have kids? (karma: 7)  en>fr fr>en
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 11509, member since Thu Dec 16, 2004
On Sun Nov 24, 2013 02:14 AM
This is a mind-numbing thread. First of all, every society throughout history has included a class of destitute people. Poverty is a fact of life that we are nowhere near eradicating. Should someone have children when they can't afford them? What kind of stupid question is that? Of course not. But poor people exist. They have always existed. Disapproving of them will not make them disappear and it will not prevent them from having babies.

In any case, what should we do when poor people get pregnant? Take their babies away? Force them to have abortions? Sterilize them against their will? Cut off their assistance so their whole family starves? The whole question we're asking here is completely reprehensible.

If you want to prevent people from having babies, WE ALREADY KNOW HOW TO DO THAT!

1)Provide contraception. Why should you pay for someone else's birth control? Because it's WAY cheaper than paying for their baby. duh.

And 2) Educate the girls. When girls receive more education, they have fewer births, and they have them later in life. We have known this FOR DECADES! The most effective way to raise a community out of poverty is to educate the women - NOT to shame them.

We need to stop having these discussions about how individual poor people should behave. That's like discussing individual raindrops in the middle of a hurricane. Plus, these aren't raindrops. They're people. And using terms like "need to breed" is horribly offensive and degrading. They're not livestock.
re: The need to breed, should people on gov. assistance continue to have kids? en>fr fr>en
By Odessamember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 11218, member since Tue Feb 26, 2002
On Sun Nov 24, 2013 03:35 AM
panic wrote:

Educate the girls. When girls receive more education, they have fewer births, and they have them later in life. We have known this FOR DECADES! The most effective way to raise a community out of poverty is to educate the women - NOT to shame them.


QUOTED FOR TRUTH.

This is the best thing anyone has ever said in the history of DDN.

Erin.
::righteous babe::
re: The need to breed, should people on gov. assistance continue to have kids? en>fr fr>en
By aerial Comments: 1146, member since Sun Sep 02, 2001
On Sun Nov 24, 2013 06:45 AM
I'm sorry if the title offended you. I was really just shooting for a catchy title that would get people to look. Plus I thought it was kind of funny. Like "baby rabies" I should have been more PC and said the desire to reproduce no wait that is too icky sounding too the desire to bring new beautiful life into this world via childbirth.

I guess maybe my experiences are only mine. I don't know anyone in my life that is hurting or embarrassed to be on welfare. I only know people who are ungrateful for the assistance and expect the assistance. To me family planning (yes planning out a family not accidently getting pregnant) should not include looking into what benifits you can get to have a kid and plotting out how you can revolve your life around welfare you can receive.

I know women who have purposly put off getting a job, getting married, living with the father etc. to be able to have the upper hand in getting assistance. I knew a woman who got pregnant on purpose because she needed dental work and wanted her tonsils removed and Medicaid would pay for that while she was pregnant.

And yes again these are MY experiences. Maybe that is why my mind is so narrow. And again I am not asking for women to get abortions, or be sterilized, or punished or starve out her other kids. I am simply curious if they had education programs you had to attend while on assistance where you were told they would not pay for another birth and you would not receive any additional benifits if it happened again (of course I am not talking years down the line, after you get a great job and lose it, if you become disabled, you lose your spouse etc.) how many women would ACTIVELY try to get pregnant again to have another baby because it is fun, they are cute and free or cheap.
re: The need to breed, should people on gov. assistance continue to have kids? en>fr fr>en
By Dancing_EMTmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 3339, member since Wed Dec 08, 2004
On Sun Nov 24, 2013 07:38 AM
t isn't about saving money, it is about trying to punish and embarrass people.


If you can't support your family you SHOULD be embarrassed. It used to be looked at as embarrassing to have the govt supporting you, now it's something to be proud of. The government is not your baby's daddy. So play house on your own dime.

Also, FL only drug tested applicants for TANF. If we tested for EVERY type of assistance (food stamps, section 8, etc.) we'd probably see different results.

I have my own life to pay for, I shouldn't have to pay for someone's voluntary choices.
re: The need to breed, should people on gov. assistance continue to have kids? (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By kandykanePremium member Comments: 16116, member since Mon May 01, 2006
On Sun Nov 24, 2013 07:55 AM
I'd much rather pay for someone's baby than pay for someone's war.

kk~
re: The need to breed, should people on gov. assistance continue to have kids? en>fr fr>en
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 11509, member since Thu Dec 16, 2004
On Sun Nov 24, 2013 08:10 AM
I know women who have purposly put off getting a job,
That's completely irrelevant since we have an unemployment rate of over 7%. If that woman takes a minimum-wage job, she's only going to put someone else out of a minimum-wage job.
re: The need to breed, should people on gov. assistance continue to have kids? en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 7988, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Sun Nov 24, 2013 08:48 AM
Panic, how would to provide contraception to everyone? I think it is a great idea but I am not sure how it would work? Mail it to everyone who is on welfare, or provide coupons for condoms to people on food stamps?

My university had free condoms AND birth control but women still got pregnant despite birth control being right in front of them and FREE.

I also like the idea of educating girls, but how do you deal with women who DON'T want to be educated? I know several girls who dropped out of college because it wasn't " their thing"....and they had parents paying fully for them. I'm sure there are people on DDN who also dropped out of college or never went to college. What if they have babies, who's going to take care of the babies while they are studying?

Do you mean educate them in the term " sex education"? Like send out pamphlets to women or sex education in all middle schools or high schools?

I think your points are great panic. For the sake of the debate, how would the logistics work out in your perfect world?
re: The need to breed, should people on gov. assistance continue to have kids? en>fr fr>en
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 11509, member since Thu Dec 16, 2004
On Sun Nov 24, 2013 09:04 AM
Let's turn this question around. How would the logistics work out in YOUR perfect world?
In any case, what should we do when poor people get pregnant? Take their babies away? Force them to have abortions? Sterilize them against their will? Cut off their assistance so their whole family starves?

So y'all don't like it when women on welfare have children. Tough tit. How do you intend to prevent it? Or does everyone just want to complain about it and feel superior?

And no, I'm not talking about sex education. I'm talking about finishing high school for a start. Education is inversely proportional to number of children. This is true across all societies in all parts of the world.
re: The need to breed, should people on gov. assistance continue to have kids? en>fr fr>en
By d4jmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 12253, member since Fri Aug 27, 2004
On Sun Nov 24, 2013 09:09 AM
OP, you have listed so many people who are scamming the system in various creative ways that I'm starting to think the entire 1% of cheaters is in your neighborhood! You make it sound like it is simply endemic and yet others have pointed out that it is not so easy, especially long-term, to have a welfare lifestyle. Why not turn these people in? It doesn't sound like you'd be taking food out of the mouth of babes if everyone is as well off as you say. And I have to say that it can't be as easy as you say to just get a house given to you? There must be more to it than that? Is this is the U.S.?
re: The need to breed, should people on gov. assistance continue to have kids? en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 7988, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Sun Nov 24, 2013 09:17 AM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-11-24 09:20:29
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-11-24 09:25:16
In my perfect world....

1.I feel that conservative groups against abortions should either make it easier for women to get abortions ( if they chose). I know several girls who KNEW they couldn't afford babies, didn't want to keep them, but was guilted into keeping a child they didn't want or afford. If they feel so strongly about a life for a fetus, they shouldn't just abandon a baby after he is out of the womb.

2. People on welfare( who aren't disabled and not including people who already work AND is on welfare) should volunteer their time to give back to the community. Soup kitchens need more people, streets need to be cleaned, children need mentoring after school systems etc. I feel if the people of the community are paying taxes that support them, they should give back once a month. In general, regardless of welfare or not, I feel strongly about people supporting their communities. Not just working in the Soup Kitchens on Thanksgiving to feel good, but working in them once a month to sustain them etc. I think all people in a community should work together to better it. I feel very strongly about volunteering with after school programs to teach dance to students etc. ( which is why I do it)

3. I would say for the educating part, allow a bigger portion of a University budget to offer online classes. I know a lot of schools offer a bare minimum of online classes, and I feel that if mothers are able to take online classes, it would be easier. Also, don't make it some outrageous price or from some weird school like the University of Underwater Basket Weaving, I think officially recognized brand name schools should offer online classes to help mothers.

4. They should have a daycare run by volunteers so that moms on welfare can go to school and actually have time to study. A lot of campuses have Daycare, but it is super expensive and sometimes it is only for University Staff. People who used the daycare can get a few classes in childhood education and once their children are grown, they can volunteer once a month or something.

5. Make it easier for people to get their GED. Have childcare in the premises, so single moms don't have to worry about paying huge amounts for childcare when they take it.

6. They should offer trade school training as an alternative to college. I know trade schools aren't huge in the US but I think a lot of people can benefit from them. Someone might not be " book smart" but they might make an awesome car mechanic.

7. As for condoms, they should be given out at every clinic or hospital for free. They should just have a bowl of condoms in the lobby that people can come in and take. No questions asked.
re: The need to breed, should people on gov. assistance continue to have kids? en>fr fr>en
By hummingbird Comments: 8370, member since Mon Apr 18, 2005
On Sun Nov 24, 2013 09:23 AM
And again I am not asking for women to get abortions, or be sterilized, or punished or starve out her other kids. I am simply curious if they had education programs you had to attend while on assistance where you were told they would not pay for another birth and you would not receive any additional benifits if it happened again (of course I am not talking years down the line, after you get a great job and lose it, if you become disabled, you lose your spouse etc.)


Ahh, that's very sweet of you, no starving of their existing children, only the ones they plan to have after a set point in time.

How in Gods name do you think that's going to work and why would you even call this an education program? That's not education, that's threatening with intent.
re: The need to breed, should people on gov. assistance continue to have kids? en>fr fr>en
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 11509, member since Thu Dec 16, 2004
On Sun Nov 24, 2013 09:25 AM
In a perfect world, no one would be on welfare, and no one would have babies if they couldn't afford to raise them. Let's talk about the ACTUAL world instead. Because you can't force a single mother with 15 kids and no car to volunteer at a soup kitchen. That's just not plausible.
re: The need to breed, should people on gov. assistance continue to have kids? en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 7988, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Sun Nov 24, 2013 09:34 AM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-11-24 09:35:14
^ well if they don't have a car and have 15 kids how would she get educated?

I feel that universities or trade schools should offer online courses at a bigger rate. I know being a single mother is one if the main reasons that my friends dropped out. I know you have taken those free online classes, but I feel that those should apply towards getting a degree instead of just a certificate. I honestly feel like online classes would really benefit people who can't leave the house to go to school.

Maybe they can have packets if power points and loan out textbooks and they can take a final once a semester at their local community college.

Although that brings up the question of how they can afford a computer and online access....I know not everyone lives close to libraries nor can they use them to study if they have 15 kids.

I am entirely in favor of education and providing some sort of birth control. I am just trying to think up best logistics because it is a debate.
re: The need to breed, should people on gov. assistance continue to have kids? en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 7988, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Sun Nov 24, 2013 09:49 AM
* new post because I don't want to change my previous one in an edit incase it gets missed*

I also feel that the public school system can use an overhaul. I feel that some elementary schools are so bad that once a child gets to high school, they fall behind and they get discouraged and just drop out. My bf was at work one day, and he stumbled upon a 14 year old who never learned how to read because he fell through the cracks. He went to a school in the ghetto, and never learned anything. He moved districts to a " better school" and there was no way he could keep up.

They should offer more benefits to teachers who work in undesirable schools. I know they offer student loan forgiveness, but they should offer them more incentive. I feel that educating women is a good idea, but it starts at the elementary school level.
re: The need to breed, should people on gov. assistance continue to have kids? en>fr fr>en
By Rosiemember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 4090, member since Wed Jun 30, 2004
On Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:24 AM
The first thing that I thought of when reading the beginning of this thread is exactly what Panic suggested.. contraception and education. I know that I, for one, was pretty much told in middle and high school health classes to not have sex. The end. And I grew up in a college town full of highly educated people, so I can't even imagine what it would have been like in a rural or less liberal area. The only birth control I would have been aware of as a teenager without researching anything on my own would be condoms. I think all options need to be hashed out to young people, not just those on welfare or those who live in communities of lower socioeconomic classes.

I know that birth control is available at my university for free or a very low cost (depending on specifics), but obviously not everyone is a university student! I personally think this option should be available to everyone, in some way shape or form--maybe on a sliding scale so that people pay what they can afford.

Educating young men and women in the first place rather than scolding them for getting pregnant when they cannot afford it. Providing people with a variety of options without putting a negative strain on them will at least help prevent unwanted pregnancies that cannot be financially or emotionally supported. At least, I'd hope. I look at the girls on 16 and pregnant-some of which come from families under financial strain and wonder what efforts their families and educators made to educate them about sex and ways to prevent unwanted pregnancy. It just makes me sad to think that people get themselves into this sort of situation because they really don't know their options well enough to avoid being careless.
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