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CA Transgender Rights Law K-12 Schools. Boys showering with Girls en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8686, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:22 PM

In Jan 2014 a new law is taking effect that all students between K-12 will be allowed to self identify their gender. Which means that there are "issues" with locker rooms, bathrooms and sleeping arrangements on school trips.

www.nbclosangeles.com . . .

Here are some of the concerns from parents in the school district.

"At this time in their lives, these kids are young, innocent and are just learning about themselves and their bodies, and they don't need to worry about boys coming in the locker room and looking at them, or vice versa,"


As students are able to self identify gender, and from what I understand, change their gender numerous times...technically 18 year old male can be showering with 13 year old girls.( and vice versa)

On the radio, I know this was a concern of a father of one of the students. He mentioned that he would be uncomfortable if a self identified "females" of legal age 18( Who was biologically a male) came into the shower and saw his 14 year old daughter naked. On his behalf, he said he would be a bit hesitant, but fine, if these self identified transgendered people were "really" transgendered. He was just worried that some people would take advantage of this new law even if they weren't transgendered, in order to go into the opposite sex bathrooms, locker rooms, and sleeping areas.

How would you enforce issues like shower rooms? Should they only allow each person to chose "one" gender during the time they are in high school? What is to prevent the opposite sex from showering and sleeping with the opposite sex if they are able to change their gender identity numerous times?
If two people are dating, all it would take would be for the girlfriend to "identify" that she is a male, and she can sleep in the same area as her boyfriend or shower with him. She can "change" her gender back the next day.

Would it be discrimination to only allow them to chose their gender certain amount of times through their high school career?

As this law it pretty new, there is a lot of misunderstanding, hysteria, and a lot of discussion on the radio about this. They hasn't been a clear cut answer on what kind of "proof" is needed to self identify ( at the time, there is none), or how many times people can change their gender.

Opinions, thoughts?

21 Replies to CA Transgender Rights Law K-12 Schools. Boys showering with Girls

re: CA Transgender Rights Law K-12 Schools. Boys showering with Girls en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8686, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:42 PM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-12-30 22:44:02
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-12-30 22:57:35
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-12-30 23:20:27
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-12-30 23:44:42 Typos, Major typos
Full disclosure is that I haven't read the bill myself, and I am just getting my sources off the TV news and articles. I may have missed some key points, but I wanted to get a discussion going for the sake of our state being the first state to do this. Forgive me if I put out misinformation out there by accident and please feel free to correct me. I am pretty new to this topic.

This is my personal opinion of this.

I feel that it is great that this opens up communication for families who have transgendered students. I can't even begin to imagine how hard it was for them to be told they had to go to a specific bathroom or locker room, when they didn't identify with that gender.

BUT

Here is my problem with it.
When I was in high school, I was bullied by the boys in my class. They would take tampons out of the girls backpacks and sneak into our locker rooms to steal our underwear at times. People also went into the opposite sex locker rooms to make out, but they were caught by teachers and got in trouble.

I was also very insecure about my body when I was 14 and I hated that girls saw me naked. Add boys into that mix and I would have been utterly MORTIFIED having to take a shower at school after PE. Also, having boys go into the bathroom would have been terrible for me as a 14 year old.

My brother is currently in high school, and there is a lot of talk about this issue. From what he says, some guys are super excitied that they get to sneak in and see boobies every single day, and there is NOTHING that the teachers can do to stop them. They say it is like real life porn, but it is legal and they can't wait for 2014! Obviously, I don't think they are serious about this, but even joking about this bill gives me the creeps.

Now, as a woman, I probably would not have much problems with seeing men in the locker rooms. But, you have to remember that this law deals with teenagers, who tend to still be shy about their changing bodies.

I would like to think that teenagers and preteens won't abuse this new law, but I have a feeling that some will try to take advantage of this. So, for the sake of this debate, how would you deal with the misconduct of someone "lying" about their gender in order to access the opposite sex bathrooms/locker rooms for ulterior motives?

I feel that it is great that the state is recognizing that transgender needs have to be met. I also feel like there needs to be some "rules" put in place, so people can't change their gender for ulterior motivies. I am just not quite sure how to have a child "prove" their gender. I feel if we started to do that, it would be discrimination.

Slippery slope for sure.

Here are my solutions.
1. I think they should offer private showers in the locker rooms. Ours was a huge room with 10 shower heads with no curtains. I feel that schools should offer the "privacy" of individual showers and also a curtain for changing clothes if needed.

2. As for bathroom, I think they should offer a co'ed bathrooms but also keep a couple bathrooms for biological genders( or legally changed genders: Students that the parents verify is transgendered). That way, if people don't mind using the bathroom with the opposite sex, they can have those. If people are shy about sharing the bathroom, they still have the "retreat" away.

3. I don't think that they should let the students self identify genders for locker room usage or overnight trips without parential permission. If they are self identifying their gender and using the opposite sex, everyone already knows what they identify with. It won't be a "secret" like "being in the closet" away from parents knowledge.

4 . For families who have problems with this issue, they should offer mediation talks with the transgendered families. I feel that open communication might help in this situation.

I don't think that a lot of people have a real issue with a transgender person benefiting from this. They are just worried about the misusage of this law. Plus, what is to prevent a boyfriend/girlfriend from showering together. Everyone would know that they aren't transgendered, but teachers won't be in power to "stop it".

*****SO FOR THE DEBATE....HERE ARE MY QUESTION :) ******

1. No one should pretend to be transgendered, BUT if it comes to light that students are taking advantage of the system, what type of measures should be put into place to make sure this new law runs as smoothly and problem free for the schools.
2. Should students be able to self indentify their gender more then once in their school career?
3. Do you believe this law benefits the transgendered community?
4. Should it be mandatory for PRIVATE schools to also take place? ( Currently it is just public school)
re: CA Transgender Rights Law K-12 Schools. Boys showering with Girls en>fr fr>en
By RifleBuddy Comments: 306, member since Tue Aug 26, 2003
On Tue Dec 31, 2013 08:45 AM
Here's a possible solution, at least for the bullying. Let it be known to everyone that should there be any sort of shenanigans with locker rooms, it's sexual harassment (it would be for the schools I work for) and appropriate consequences will follow. And should there be a second transgression...well, if you're saying you've identifying as a female, you'll be switched to the team's/clubs/etc of the appropriate gender for the rest the school year or beginning of the next. It will also be noted in the students file for consideration for scholarships. If the student is transgendered, great, the school is being accommodating. If the student is just screwing around, those are some pretty heavy penalties.

Also, I think a teacher of the appropriate gender should be in the locker room during changing times to supervise. In one of the high schools I worked at, the female gym teacher's office was in the locker room.
re: CA Transgender Rights Law K-12 Schools. Boys showering with Girls (karma: 6)  en>fr fr>en
By Louisemember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 17315, member since Thu Jun 06, 2002
On Tue Dec 31, 2013 09:03 AM
I guess I can't see why a teenage boy would claim to be transgendered when he wasn't, and put up with all the inevitable bullying surrounding that, just to get a glimpse of some boobies in the showers. Or vice versa of course. Would it really be worth it? These people are often bullied to the point of suicide - who in their right mind would lie about it just to catch a peek at something they can find within two seconds of being on the internet?
re: CA Transgender Rights Law K-12 Schools. Boys showering with Girls en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8686, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Tue Dec 31, 2013 09:10 AM
^ I think that is a good way to solve some of the abuses that take place.

In high school, the guys would dare each other to go into the girls locker rooms. Before, if they were caught, they got detention and it a lot of trouble.
Now, if they are caught, due to the law being so iffy, they would just say " I identify with the female gender today" and there is nothing the teacher can do even if everyone knows it is BS. I hoping the original bill covers something like this, but based on radio shows and TV news, this seems to be what we know so far. People can self declare their gender and there isn't a limit on how many times a student can self identify.
I feel this is kind of like Obamacare. At first, it needed to be passed, so the general public didn't quite know what was going on. Still, even to this day, the president is having to go back on things he promised while it sorts itself out. I hope that overtime, the public in CA with be more knowledgable about this, but I feel like we are currently in the dark about the exact implications of this.

Maybe the law should say that a student needs to pick a gender at the beginning of the year and if there is a change in status the parents/student needs to meet with the principle to get it changed. If a male choses "female", he can't play on the boys sport teams, need to always use the girls facilities etc.

I teach middle school and high school dance classes. A LOT of the parents are saying that their children are most likely to move to private schools the year after, because of this new law. The girls that I teach are SUPER uncomfortable with that idea that the opposite sex MAY be able to walk in. I teach in a rich area so they can afford to move based on issues like that.

I think a good compromise would be to make EVERY school have private showers/areas in the locker room.

I am not quite sure how to solve the sports team thing though. A lot of people are scouted for sports scholorships in high school, and if a biological male is playing on the female basketball team...would he get a womans basketball scolorship or a males basketball scholorship for college?
re: CA Transgender Rights Law K-12 Schools. Boys showering with Girls en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8686, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Tue Dec 31, 2013 09:16 AM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-12-31 09:21:00
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-12-31 09:25:35
Edited by Sumayah (204191) on 2013-12-31 09:37:00 profanity removed
^ Louise...The thing is, they wouldn't have to "pretend" to be transgendered. Everyone at school would know they weren't, but the teachers wouldn't be in a position of power to punish them if they went in on a dare and justified it as " Well, the law says you can't discriminate me, I identify with a female".That's the kind of stuff that was at my high school, and I think that if my high school was like that, there has to be some high schools like that too.
If boys went into the locker rooms to grab our underwear and tampons, this law would benefit them because they can't get in trouble anymore for going in there. They would just quote the law, and their rich families can try to sue the school.
( There has been many parental lawsuit threatened in the past...I went to a private school with very many rich families)

Of course, a non transgendered male probably wouldn't chose "female" if they had to stick to one gender. But what is preventing him from saying " I am female" to BS the teachers, and just changing back his gender after the dare?

People aren't worrying about the person who says that they are a certain gender from the start of the year. Those are people who truly need this law, and those issues don't seem to be causing most of the outrage ( Except with conservative political groups).
People are worried about the possible flip flopping of gender daily to avoid the punishments from teachers. If you don't think that teenage boys or girls won't try to oversmart the teachers and push limits, I sadly think you are mistaken.

Right now, people don't really need to "live" as a certain gender to qualify for this law. All they need to do is "self identify" and say it. Nothing in the law, that I am aware of, mentions that the student needs to chose to a gender at the start of the year, and then stick to it.

*I think a way to solve this is that a student has to "live" as a certain gender 3 months before being able to chosing it. So if a male says that he has lived as a female all his life, is thinking about sex surgery and has always identified as a female...they would be considered a female for the school year. *

It is kind of like people with emotional service animals. Because you can't ask what kind of handicap they have, people abuse the law and bring in their pets and just call them a "service animal".

EDIT

I am basically talking about the boy that everyone knows isn't transgendered, has a girlfriend, and plays on male sport teams and lives as a male. If he went into the girls locker room and claimed he was transgendered....he wouldn't get bullied by other kids or commit suicide. He would probably get a high five for sneaking in there and BS the teachers. THAT is the type of thing that I was talking about. Not the male who pretends to be a transgendered all year long, just to sneak a look at the boobs. THAT kind of person would probably face bullying for identifying as a transgender...but the star football player who decides he is a "female" temporary...probably won't get bullied.
re: CA Transgender Rights Law K-12 Schools. Boys showering with Girls en>fr fr>en
By slice Comments: 1247, member since Fri Oct 15, 2004
On Tue Dec 31, 2013 09:35 AM
Louise wrote:

I guess I can't see why a teenage boy would claim to be transgendered when he wasn't, and put up with all the inevitable bullying surrounding that, just to get a glimpse of some boobies in the showers. Or vice versa of course. Would it really be worth it? These people are often bullied to the point of suicide - who in their right mind would lie about it just to catch a peek at something they can find within two seconds of being on the internet?


^Transwomen especially are by far at the greatest risk for domestic abuse, peer bullying, violence (by peers and others), sexual abuse, and suicide than anybody else in the LGBTQIA community. TWOC are even more at risk of these things.

It's pretty telling that the framing for conversations such as this involving transwomen's rights tends to be "But what about cis girls?" Very few people tend to venture to think about the transwomen who are being forced to use unsafe gendered spaces. While ciswoman are certainly capable of being abusive to transwomen, a lot of the above that Louise and myself mentioned comes from misgendering transwomen by virtue of forcing them into these spaces.

Over the past year I've tried to become a lot more educated on trans issues since it's something I was (and still am, and to an extent always will be) very ignorant about. A misconception that I think is very prominent is that it's super easy for transwomen to "pass" as men by virtue of having a penis (not all transwoman have penises, however). Obviously every woman has a different experience, but a lot of transwomen talk about the experience of how obviously they didn't pass with family, friends, in school even prior to fully realizing their transness. The bullying and violence doesn't just apply to people who are "out" as trans, but people who are closeted or for the most part unaware of their own identity.

Basically, reading these experiences its clear that this isn't a frivolous thing that we should tell people to "deal with" until they turn 18 (except given that rights protecting trans people are few and far between, this isn't something that stops after high school).

Btw, if a transwoman uses a shower marked for girls its not a boy showering with a girls... it's a girl showering with other girls.
re: CA Transgender Rights Law K-12 Schools. Boys showering with Girls en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8686, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Tue Dec 31, 2013 09:45 AM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-12-31 09:48:14
Btw, if a transwoman uses a shower marked for girls its not a boy showering with a girls... it's a girl showering with other girls.


I agree, which is why this isn't a debate of whether this law is good, or if "true" transgendered people should be allowed. I feel that the only people against this law are conservative groups that are now currently gathering signatures to have it overturned.

But if it is a non transwoman who is pretending to be one, it IS a boy showering with girls.

People have an issue with the way it is written and the abuses and lack of teacher power it can bring based on the wording.
If someone truly self identified as a gender, then yes, it is a woman showering with a woman.

My brothers high school is already making "jokes" about how the teachers are even more stupid to do anything. The girls I teach are worried about their male classmates coming into the bathroom with them. It isn't the transgendered issue that people are worrying about, it is the lack of rules set in place to avoid the abuses.

*****So, I ask again...how do you prevent that the all male football star from claiming he identifies as a female once a month to use the locker room with his girlfriend?
If they are asked to pick their gender once a year, would it be discrimination?

Obviously, I don't think it is going to be a widespread abuse, but some laws should be put into place to punish the people who "lie" about their gender. But then...how would you "prove" someone was lying.

It isn't the law that is the issue, it is the wording and implications of it.
Just to clarify, I don't have an issue with this law. I think it is a great thing that schools are starting to accomidate. It is just that having a high school aged brother and teaching students who are in high school, I worry about some of the worries that they are having.

I think having several individual coed bathrooms and private showerooms in the locker rooms would be a start for people who are worried about their privacy.
re: CA Transgender Rights Law K-12 Schools. Boys showering with Girls en>fr fr>en
By slice Comments: 1247, member since Fri Oct 15, 2004
On Tue Dec 31, 2013 09:47 AM
^I guess my question is why is the possibility of a football player using the law to get some hankypanky with his girlfriend more important than the health and safety of transwomen?
re: CA Transgender Rights Law K-12 Schools. Boys showering with Girls en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8686, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Tue Dec 31, 2013 09:51 AM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-12-31 09:54:24
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-12-31 09:59:03
^ I am not saying that it is not as important. By why should the transgendered person be more important then the privacy of other students who are worried?

I feel like BOTH are of equal importances, so for the sake of this debate, we should talk about the solutions and compromises that protect BOTH their rights. The transgendered person and also the other students who may be victimized by the abuses of this law.

I am not talking about the football player going in and getting sex with his girlfriend only. Boys would sneak into our locker room to steal our underwear, tampons, and even try to take photos on their phone of us showering when I was in high school. I feel like people in the showerooms should also have some sort of "protection", not just the transgendered person.
The boys who did this, got a 1 day suspension, but I was better off not "telling" on them because they would make my life miserable.

Which is why I suggested individual shower stalls and private changing areas. I notice that no one said anything about how to deal with sport scholorships for college...how would THAT work?

I also feel that maybe you are misunderstanding where i stand on this. I DO NOT support the conservative groups trying to overturn this and push it back to the Nov ballot. i am in FAVOR of this change taking place, but as a teacher, I am hearing the concerns of my students.
Obviously I don't work at a public school, so it wouldn't affect me personally. And as I said, as a woman, I don't mind coed shower spaces at a gym for myself, but remembered how I was bullied in high school, I can understand the hesitation that my students have.
re: CA Transgender Rights Law K-12 Schools. Boys showering with Girls en>fr fr>en
By DefyingGravityPremium member Comments: 5265, member since Sun Jan 19, 2003
On Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:21 AM
YumYumDoughnut wrote:

I am basically talking about the boy that everyone knows isn't transgendered, has a girlfriend, and plays on male sport teams and lives as a male. If he went into the girls locker room and claimed he was transgendered....he wouldn't get bullied by other kids or commit suicide.
And you really think that the school would put up with blatant sexual harassment by this football jock? Let alone the girls who are getting harassed? REALLY? This is California, the school and the victims' parents would be ALL over that blatant abuse and complete disregard for the law. There would be no tip-toeing around the fact that this kid is not a trans-woman.

The uproar (that I haven't heard, btw) is just that... talk. There aren't going to be boys sneaking into girls locker rooms and getting away with under the guise of this new law. The repercussions they would face would be huge. Boys can be dumb, but not that dumb.
re: CA Transgender Rights Law K-12 Schools. Boys showering with Girls (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By Moonlitefairy06member has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 7153, member since Fri Apr 16, 2004
On Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:22 AM
I'm surprised to hear about the shower situation at your school. At my high school we had maybe 5 minutes to change from our gym uniforms to regular uniforms (Catholic school). No one showered or got totally naked, no time for that. People who were self conscious could go in a bathroom stall or a shower stall (there was only one or two, never knew anyone to use the shower itself) but most people didn't bother. With the uniforms we had it was pretty easy to be discreet by doing things like putting your skirt on first and then taking off your shorts or sweatpants. If a boy ever went into a girls locker room or bathroom they would be expelled immediately and V.V. I know of a guy that got expelled for going in the guys locker room and putting rubber cement in someone's shoes. My HS was very no nonsense so what you experienced would never happen. But I do see how this new law could complicate things.

I think the only solution would be that if a student wants to change gender they have to meet with a school counselor, talk about it and have it in writing before they can use another restroom. Similar to how you have to get a lot of psychological evaluations to have transgender surgery, but not as intense as that obviously.
re: CA Transgender Rights Law K-12 Schools. Boys showering with Girls en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8686, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:33 AM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-12-31 10:36:11
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2013-12-31 10:39:04
And you really think that the school would put up with blatant sexual harassment by this football jock? Let alone the girls who are getting harassed? REALLY?


Have you SEEN the bullying that takes place in high schools or have been a victim of bullying? Schools have policies against bullying in general, but does that stop bullying? Schools have policies against cheating, but does that stop cheating?

Students are getting sexually harassed and also bullied by other students, but has that prevented bullying to stop? I am not sure about your school, but if you "snitched" on your classmates, you were bullied even MORE after.
I quickly learned that being quiet is a much better alternative then "snitching" out the bullies.

I am not sure if I am overly sensitive to this, but some days I just wanted my life to end when I was in high school. The amount of bullying was TREMENDOUS for me, and adults didn't take it seriously because " kids are just kids, they don't mean any harm".

Boys can be dumb, but not that dumb.


Students have sex on high school property, so yes....some students ARE that dumb.

So maybe I am too close to this issue from bullying that took place at my high school, or I am still traumatized by boys stealing my tampons/underwear. But for me, the talk about people possibly being able to take advantage of this law really maked me uncomfortable and it makes me sick to my stomach to think about it being a possibility.

Katie, I will bet you a drink+dinner that within the next couple years of this law taking effect, there WILL be people abusing this law. You wait and watch the news, mark my words :P

I think the only solution would be that if a student wants to change gender they have to meet with a school counselor, talk about it and have it in writing before they can use another restroom. Similar to how you have to get a lot of psychological evaluations to have transgender surgery, but not as intense as that obviously.


I think this is a good idea and it will cut down on any possible abuse of this law.

re: CA Transgender Rights Law K-12 Schools. Boys showering with Girls en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8686, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Tue Dec 31, 2013 10:49 AM
So another HUGE part of this implication is that students can now choose sport teams that identify with their gender.

So, how does a transtudent get "scouted" for college sport teams or scholorships? If a biological male plays womens volleyball, basketball, baseball etc...how do colleges deal with an exceptional biological male player on a womans team?
Do they give the students a woman's scholorship or a males? Would they have to play on the male or female teams in college?

Should colleges be required to allow none biological born male or female to play on whichever sport teams they like? If high schools allow this sport change, wouldn't college level and beyond also have to take this into account?

Transgendered people in beauty pageants was a huge thing this year at my Miss CA pageant. The first ever transgendered person was competing, and they had to change the rules on a NATIONAL and Universial level because of it.
re: CA Transgender Rights Law K-12 Schools. Boys showering with Girls (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By Gavrilushka Comments: 872, member since Wed Jul 11, 2012
On Wed Jan 01, 2014 01:02 AM
So I'm getting that the problem here is a sexuality issue and not a sex identity issue? As in, worry that heterosexual females or males will abuse the law and wreck havoc?
Well let's put it this way, I'm sure you showered with a lesbian and I am sure a guy has showered with a gay guy. Has anyone been harassed over that? Probably, but this law which will include trans individuals to go to the bathroom of their respective sex identity will not make any difference to the current situation.

And I strongly doubt that the law will be abused. I'm sure there will be guidelines like perhaps girls should be taking T once they are of age to take it or boys to be taking estrogen once they are allowed and even an evaluation of legitimacy. Personally, I identify more with the gender roles/stereotypes of women, but I do not identify as a woman for example which can cause confusion with some people just as much as someone who does not identify with the gender roles and stereotypes yet does identify as that gender/sex. Professionals know about these difficulties and how everything lies in a grey area with gender and sex so evaluation is going to be implemented, I am almost 100% sure.
Honestly, no more 'issues' than had it been a gay man in the men's room or a lesbian in the women's room if it is abused. I mean, for that record since I am attracted to the same sex, should I be using the women's showers and bathroom?

And again had it been abused, I am certain that consequences will be in place like if I had been checking out the guys in the showers. The children/teens just need to know that rather than whine and complain about it, that if someone is harassing them they should say so. I think I am more worried about the potential that false accusations may be made against trans individuals in bathrooms which has happened to many homosexuals in these situations.

And I am sure they can't just say "I identify with X gender". If they were staring at penises or stealing girl's underwear, do you REALLY think that that would let them get it easy? I mean yeah, they can identify with them and continue showering with them, but I am so certain that they will potentially get suspended or other serious consequences. Otherwise the teachers are failing at their job.

As for your last questions, I can use an example of something else. As a homosexual my university offers a $15 000 scholarship to 3 homosexual students. In theory, a straight person could apply, but do they? No. Of course not. There are scholarships for people of Russian heritage, for Indigenous heritage and for mental illness - in theory a Ukrainian heritage person could claim Russian heritage since there is nothing to prove they aren't Russian and a straight person can claim homosexuality for the scholarship without actually being gay since you can't prove it. So I don't see how this would be any different. In other words, scholarships sometimes allow you to claim identity without having that identity. Just the way the world is.

But I do believe that trans individuals should be allowed to be given the same opportunities as those who share the same identified sex as they do. The whole idea that biological men have unfair advantages over women is complete load of $&%@ considering not all men have the potential to be like Arnold Schwarzenegger just as much as not all women have the potential to be like Miranda Kerr.

When it comes to scholarships though, there may be a trans category just to shut some people up I feel. :\ But also because, like the homosexual scholarship, there is recognition of different struggles dealt between trans and non-trans people which results in a new scholarship category.

Personally, I wished we lived in a world where there were no competitive girls and boys categories and that sex categories didn't exist any way unless sex/gender played a big part, for example, in aesthetics (you simply can't compare female bodies with male bodies). But that's just me.
re: CA Transgender Rights Law K-12 Schools. Boys showering with Girls en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8686, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Wed Jan 01, 2014 08:37 AM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2014-01-01 08:41:08
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2014-01-01 08:44:11
^ I am not quite sure why there would be a special category for trans and homosexual scholorships due to sport teams??? I am not too familiar myself with the teams, but they usually "scout" students in Junior/Senior year of high schools and offer them scholorships to come to the school to play sports for them.

For example, there is academic and financial scholorships at Stanford, but they also recruit for sport teams.
So, if they were recruiting for a women basketball team...would they consider taking the transwoman and giving her a womens scholorship? Do university's allow people born of the opposite sex to compete in their gender sports? I am not quite sure, and someone who has more knowledge of this could maybe shed light on this.
Colleges try to take the cream of the crop for sports, so what happens if high schools let people of the opposite sex play? Would a 6'4 transwomen have an advantage over all the other women in basketball? Do professional women's basketball allow transgender? I have no idea, since I don't keep up in my sports.

That would really suck if transgender people are the cream of the crop in their classified gender sport in high school, but then they aren't given sport scholorships due to University/Professional sport rules.

It would be the equivalent of winning your local city/state/ national beauty pageant...and then not being able to compete on a world wide level because the world wide level doesn't allow anyone who wasn't a natural born female to compete. All that work and potential is for nothing if you aren't allowed to compete at the top level :(
re: CA Transgender Rights Law K-12 Schools. Boys showering with Girls en>fr fr>en
By Moonlitefairy06member has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 7153, member since Fri Apr 16, 2004
On Wed Jan 01, 2014 04:02 PM
When dealing with college sports you are dealing with the NCAA that is a national organization for sports with their own rules. It doesn't go by state and I would be very surprised if their eligibility guidelines didn't include gender regulations. The problem would be that even if a male basketball player identifies as female, he will be taller, stronger, faster etc than females and that would put other teams at a disadvantage, and could even put players on his/her own team at a disadvantage if they don't get to play because a male player on a female team is better than them. I know it would not be a solution for varsity athletic scholarships, but colleges do have co-ed club teams where they play against other teams at the school and sometimes other schools. On a co-ed team it wouldn't matter what gender a player identifies as. As for NCAA recruiting, I'm sure at some point in the process it would come out what gender the player is. You have to take medical tests, drug tests (where you have to pee in a cup with an anti-doping official watching), etc so they would know if they were dealing with a male or female, biologically speaking.
re: CA Transgender Rights Law K-12 Schools. Boys showering with Girls (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By DefyingGravityPremium member Comments: 5265, member since Sun Jan 19, 2003
On Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:32 AM
www.americanprogress.org . . .

My favorite quotes from the article:

"Nothing about this law changes school policies related to monitoring and responding to student behavior. Invasive or harmful acts such as voyeurism and assault will be just as illegal and punishable after this law is implemented as they were prior to its passage. In fact, the largest school district in California—the Los Angeles Unified School District—has already implemented these policies with “nothing but positive outcomes,” and the California Interscholastic Federation, the statewide athletic organization, passed similar policies earlier this year, indicating its support of transgender students."

"Forcing transgender students to utilize a different-gender, separate, or private restroom or attend a class that does not match their gender forces that person to out themselves on a daily basis and exposes them to an increased risk of violence and harassment. "

If the LA Unified School District hasn't had ANY problems thus far, I doubt any other school district is going to have a public outcry. The "concerned parents" are just yapping their traps to get a rise out of people.
re: CA Transgender Rights Law K-12 Schools. Boys showering with Girls (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8686, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Thu Jan 02, 2014 01:34 PM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2014-01-02 13:38:18
"Forcing transgender students to utilize a different-gender, separate, or private restroom or attend a class that does not match their gender forces that person to out themselves on a daily basis and exposes them to an increased risk of violence and harassment. "


Did you guys have different classes based on your gender in high school? We never had that type of segregation.

The only time we had seperated when we did gymnastics for PE for 3 months, The girls worked with ribbons, balls..while the guys did more power stunts. Everything else, including Living Skills and Autoshop was co'ed.

As for the private bathrooms, I am not sure why schools don't have private areas. I wasn't talking about private areas for transgendered people, but ANYONE who might feel uncomfortable. If there are kids who are uncomfortable with the opposite sex in their bathrooms, they can chose to utilize the private bathrooms since THEY are the ones with the issues. I don't think they should try to overthrow the laws and hold protests.

If what you quoted is true doesn't a transgender woman having a penis showering in the girls locker room "out" themselves? This is why I am in favor of the option of having private shower stalls for EVERYONE.
re: CA Transgender Rights Law K-12 Schools. Boys showering with Girls en>fr fr>en
By RifleBuddy Comments: 306, member since Tue Aug 26, 2003
On Thu Jan 02, 2014 03:06 PM
In my high school, we had separate health classes for males and females during the freshman year. Both covered birth control, putting on condoms, that sort of thing, but went into greater detail based on gender (birth control side effects for girls, for example. A specific example from the boys' class was steroid effects). It was also thought to be a more comfortable environment to ask questions.
re: CA Transgender Rights Law K-12 Schools. Boys showering with Girls en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 8686, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Thu Jan 02, 2014 03:15 PM
^ That's interesting. For our health classes we never split up. I can see that if schools DO split up for classes like that, how uncomfortable it can be for someone to be there that doesn't identify with the gender.

Our sports were the only thing split up but those were after school activities. We didn't have specific PE times for girls VS boys.
re: CA Transgender Rights Law K-12 Schools. Boys showering with Girls en>fr fr>en
By ChristinePremium member Comments: 6686, member since Wed Feb 04, 2009
On Thu Jan 02, 2014 07:24 PM
Once human sexuality programs were initiated in schools educators took a closer look at the statistics regarding gender and education.

In the beginning, it was a given that girls and boys would be separated for the comfort of all. With time they came around to the idea that the choices and decisions of either gender are usually made with a person of the other gender and therefore it made more sense to have discussions of this kind with everyone present. There were parents who objected to this decision for many reasons rooted in fear and not ANY reality... some of them felt it would make their little darlings forget that pre-marital sex was WRONG and we just shouldn't put ideas in their heads in mixed company. These are the same kinds of people that believe discussing homosexuality in health education classes will make their kids gay.

This whole "issue" reminds me of that time sucking time in my own children's school days.

I do think that DG was right in this observation
If the LA Unified School District hasn't had ANY problems thus far, I doubt any other school district is going to have a public outcry. The "concerned parents" are just yapping their traps to get a rise out of people.


The easiest solution to this non problem is this suggestion made my YYD
I am in favor of the option of having private shower stalls for EVERYONE.


Instead of focusing on the "rights" of a miniscule number of actual students and making it about this particular detail, the larger reality of the very large number of adolescents and teens who HATE their own bodies, feel too fat, too thin, too imperfect in some way that self conscious humans do and therefore avoid ALL situations involving various degrees of undress. (When I was little, the fat kids always had a doctors note to excuse them from tumbling because they were so ridiculed by the other kids...) Most swim clubs do no expect their members to change in a large open room. It seems like an easy fix to provide privacy for the more modest or painfully shy.


Keep On Dancing*

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