Forum: Ballet / Ballet - Beginners

Tire Bouchon illustrations
By Storm_Trouper
On Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:58 AM

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10 Replies to Tire Bouchon illustrations

re: Tire Bouchon illustrations
By Sumayah
On Thu Sep 18, 2014 03:26 AM
Did you upload the correct pages? Because neither of those are a tire bouchon as I learned it.
re: Tire Bouchon illustrations
By hummingbird
On Thu Sep 18, 2014 07:51 AM
Edited by hummingbird (128773) on 2014-09-18 07:54:11
This is meant to be about the grande battement exercise Rose is talking about here


www.dance.net . . .

That is one fascinating book, but the exercise is just grande battement develope, it doesn't use any medial rotation. Once the leg is raised off the ground you just continue to take the leg out and back to retire continuing en croix.

Incidentally my mom was trained by Madame Legat.
re: Tire Bouchon illustrations
By Storm_Trouper
On Thu Sep 18, 2014 08:07 AM
Edited by Storm_Trouper (249942) on 2014-09-18 08:37:53
Edited by Storm_Trouper (249942) on 2014-09-18 08:38:44
Edited by Storm_Trouper (249942) on 2014-09-18 08:39:52
Edited by Storm_Trouper (249942) on 2014-09-18 08:40:34
Edited by Storm_Trouper (249942) on 2014-09-18 08:46:20
Edited by Storm_Trouper (249942) on 2014-09-18 08:47:24
Edited by Storm_Trouper (249942) on 2014-09-18 08:49:02
Edited by Storm_Trouper (249942) on 2014-09-18 08:49:40
Tire bouchon is mentioned right in the explanation, where the asterisk * is. One tiny little mention (refer to enlargement below).

Evidentally, Balanchine, Vaganova and Legat (with Grant paraphrasing Vaganova almost word for word) all subscribe to the same notion that tire bouchon refers to the working leg held momentarily in retire'. This can be in the context of, as mentioned, turns (pirouette and renverse' cited) and grand battement de'veloppe' as depicted in the illustrations. So it seems that the french expression for cork screw is used or applied by the Russian School as a qualifier or modifier, rather than being the name given to one specific move, with respect to 3 published, venerable, acknowledged technical 'authorities'. (There is no mention of the term in my books documenting Cecchetti or Paris Opera so Italian or French Schools, altho' Balanchine (who prefers passer la jambe) suggested that Cecchetti preferred retire'. I don't own a copy of Gretchen Warren's or the RAD's 'Red' bibles on hand to check if/how they use the term. The RAD however does refer to 'the pirouette position', meaning the working thigh is held high, with toe pointed towards and devant the knee of the supporting leg a la seconde. (The working leg can be held in any number of different ways during a spinning turn, retire' is just one such manner.)

Referring back to the in/out or figure of 8 battement de'veloppe' with thigh moving dedans (inwards or medially) and dehors (outwards or laterally), since the working leg is momentarily held retire' (withdrawn or drawn back or drawn out) it all kind of makes sense that tire bouchon as a qualifier springs to mind for some in this context or instance.

Clear as mud as they say.
re: Tire Bouchon illustrations
By Storm_Trouper
On Thu Sep 18, 2014 08:24 AM
Edited by Storm_Trouper (249942) on 2014-09-18 08:53:01
Illustration is from pages 84-85 of RAD's Step-By-Step Ballet Class. Figure 3 is pirouette position where working leg toe is devant the knee (whereas page 78 shows working leg in retire' but working toe is not devant but rather pointed at the (inner or medial) side of the supporting knee.)
re: Tire Bouchon illustrations
By Storm_Trouper
On Thu Sep 18, 2014 08:31 AM
hummingbird wrote:

This is meant to be about the grande battement exercise Rose is talking about here


www.dance.net . . .

the exercise is just grande battement develope, it doesn't use any medial rotation..

Incidentally my mom was trained by Madame Legat.


Yes, I posted this reference with respect to how the expression tire bouchon can be applied to different contexts (renverse', battement developpe', pirouette) that all have a retire' involved, just like the figure of 8 with medial rotation move does as well.

That is cool, your connection to Mme. Legat. She was of the French School, n'est pas?
re: Tire Bouchon illustrations
By hummingbird
On Thu Sep 18, 2014 08:53 AM
Lol, Madame Legat came from Russia with her husband Nikolai Legat, he was the teacher that took over from Johansson in teaching the master class at the Imperial Company.

Andros on ballet has a much better bio than I can give you, here's the link.

michaelminn.net . . .

So Madame Legat was Russian and taught her husbands method, the Legat method.
re: Tire Bouchon illustrations
By Storm_Trouper
On Thu Sep 18, 2014 08:59 AM
Edited by Storm_Trouper (249942) on 2014-09-18 09:01:49
Edited by Storm_Trouper (249942) on 2014-09-18 09:03:09
So while we haven't all definitively resolved the 'whatchamacallit' in/out figure of 8 move, we have at least been able to nail down Russian corkscrews. Don't Russians also have weird ways for using the expression 'screwdriver' too?!!! (And isn't Mr. Put-In a master of the big screw as well?!. Apologies if not politically correct enough for this forum. Mods can delete as appropriate!)
re: Tire Bouchon illustrations
By Storm_Trouper
On Thu Sep 18, 2014 09:29 AM
Edited by Storm_Trouper (249942) on 2014-09-18 09:33:15
Sumayah wrote:

Did you upload the correct pages? Because neither of those are a tire bouchon as I learned it.


re: Cambre en rond / tire bouchon
By Sumayah Comments: 6095, member since Wed Nov 12, 2008
On Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:44 AM
Edited by Sumayah (204191) on 2013-02-12 11:45:18

I learned tire-bouchon as described in Gail Grant's dictionary. The turn in, turn out was always nicknamed a figure 8.

I also have not heard of cambré en rond. That doesn't mean anything though, because as I like to tell my students, ballet is based on French, but isn't proper French. {huh?}

So since ballet terminology is based on verbs and adjectives with little context, the description one person uses may very well be valid even if it's not the "popular" term for the step. So what they describe might in fact be arguably a round, arched movement that also could be argued as a corkscrew. They're just using their modifiers in a different way than you're used to.
~~~~

But Grant did quote from the translated Vaganova source: renverse' en e'carte' DOES call to mind a spiral (corkscrew or helix)... "hence the name" tire-bouchon. Mme. Legat concurs but when it's applied to grande battement de'veloppe'.

The in-then-out knee leg flick doesn't resemble a corkscrew, but the part of the thigh in retire' apparently does to some Russian masters I guess, especially if the toe is devant or derriere the knee rather than off to the side.
re: Tire Bouchon illustrations
By SandraLAVixenmember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Sun Sep 21, 2014 01:06 AM
The feature of tire bouchon, according to Ward's book, is the petite attitude position (the one taken from coupe and moved front or back from the standing leg about 20-30 cm.

All the turns, notably the en dedan turns sometimes use that position before going into second and then passe.
re: Tire Bouchon illustrations
By Storm_Trouper
On Sun Sep 21, 2014 04:47 PM
SandraLAVixen wrote:

The feature of tire bouchon, according to Ward's book, is the petite attitude position (the one taken from coupe and moved front or back from the standing leg about 20-30 cm.

All the turns, notably the en dedan turns sometimes use that position before going into second and then passe.


Ward's book title?

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