Forum: Arts / Religion

Change nobody's religion
By schuhplattlerPremium member
On Mon Mar 12, 2018 08:47 PM

"Change no man's religion, change no man's politics, interrupt the sovereignty of no nation. Instead, teach Man to use what he has and what he knows to the factual creation, within any political reference, of a civilization on Earth for the first time." LRH

10 Replies to Change nobody's religion

re: Change nobody's religion (karma: 1)
By Theresamember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:42 AM
Where's Shelly?
re: Change nobody's religion
By schuhplattlerPremium member
On Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:53 PM
I would not be surprised if Shelly said something similar, but please furnish the quote.
re: Change nobody's religion
By Theresamember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Mar 13, 2018 09:07 PM
Uh, OK. "Where's Shelly?" - every non-Scientologist ever. How was that.

Come on, you're a Scientologist. You know exactly what I mean. Where's Shelly?
re: Change nobody's religion
By Theresamember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Wed Mar 14, 2018 01:26 PM
I can cite articles too!

tonyortega.org . . .

You might also find the Disconnection counter on the bottom of that page interesting reading. Oh...wait. You guys don't do that though. That's right...
re: Change nobody's religion
By schuhplattlerPremium member
On Mon Mar 19, 2018 07:29 AM
Theresa, I'll be happy to address the whereabouts of Shelley on another post - in a forum designed for such discussions, but I won't be the one to start such a thread.

Now, inasmuch as this is the sixth day since your first non-sequitur post on this thread, and inasmuch as nobody has rallied to your hijack, will you please do your moderator's duty, as I have requested on proper lines (i.e. via the MOD button), and remove your non-sequitur posts from my thread - or get another MOD to do it?
re: Change nobody's religion (karma: 1)
By Sumayah
On Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:24 AM
Mod here.

Given you're quoting Scientologist propaganda from a book that, and I quote, says "As your associates, their homes, their children, their possessions and all their future lie ending in a radioactive street. [...] The copies of this book you did not distribute will lie there too."

So, since you're out here proselytizing, I don't take issue with asking questions regarding the lore and background of major members of Scientology. No more than I'd take issue with someone asking about disfellowshipings and Jehovah's Witnesses and the hypocrisy of listening to a bunch of disassociated octogenarian white dudes living in their ivory tower interpreting the bible and setting forth decrees about god and telling their "flock" to be no part of the world while forcing them into a patriarchy where women basically have no power and abuse is hushed up and you have no say in the world around you and you're brainwashed into a cult. SO TRY AGAIN.

Also, no really. Where +is+ Shelly?

/popcorn
re: Change nobody's religion (karma: 3)
By ChristinePremium member
On Thu Mar 22, 2018 03:07 PM
Edited by Christine (207347) on 2018-03-22 15:40:05 typo... putting Trump in the past tense was wishful thinking, I suppose
Edited by Christine (207347) on 2018-03-22 15:40:59 ~
~
It saddens me to see the level of hostility exhibited here. If I am not mistaken, this forum is, "Religion", and as such, it is odd to see such hostile posts as the only replies to a seemingly benign conversation starter. (Was it the "LRH" attribution that sparked the reaction?)

Upon further thought, I suppose it shouldn't surprise me too much. Throughout history, far too much blood has been shed in the name of "Religion" and even here on DDN, a community I have long held near and dear to my heart, many of the most contentious threads over the years have been on the "Religion" boards. I admit, I am NOT well versed in the tenets of this particular religion. I am also aware that often, one man's religion is another man's cult. I used to live within striking distance of a large estate that served as headquarters for, "The Unification Church". The members called them selves "Missionaries", the locals called them Cult Members, or victims. The shorthand, "Moonies", seemed no more abrasive than "Quakers" or "Mormons" to most of us, however this was a label which members of the Reverend Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church found demeaning and offensive.... who knew? Just as my exposure to the Moonies was a bit closer than the evening news, I also worked in an office where "Watchtower Farms" were good customers of the company I worked for. Again, it was a greater exposure than most "outsiders" experience when people knock on their doors offering copies of, "The Watchtower". On an intellectual level, I had grave differences with both the Moonies and the Jehoah's Witnesses, as I know many others have with The Vatican; but on a human level, I felt compassion for the needy adults drawn to the Sun Myung Moon and Kingdom Hall, although my heart ached for the children of these adults. Again, perhaps the same can be said for many of Catholics or Southern Baptists. Religion, by it's very definition, is a matter of belief, not facts, and as such discussions tend to be difficult when beliefs clash.

As I said, I am not remotely well versed in the Church of Scientology yet I do understand that those who have had childhood experiences in this church or others like Jehovah's Witnesses, many Mormon sects, many Evangelical Christian churches, and even the Amish, have strong feelings based on their own experiences which they are legitimately entitled to. I know several people raised as Southern Baptists or Roman Catholics who also have these strong feelings and although for me, being raised Catholic was simply as much a part of my family inheritance as my blue eyes, I do understand and respect their right to their own ever evolving point of view. It is only through open communication and empathy any of us can hope to further understanding and affect change, if necessary.

All this said....I do understand that many do feel a responsibility to 'guard the gate". We do not have to dig too deeply to see the profound danger of the mystical power of religion...any religion....to impact society. Here in America, we have the freedom to practice any religion of our choice but more importantly, we also have freedom FROM religion, which is the foundation of our Constitution's provision for a separation of church and state. Anyone who has read Margaret Atwood's, "The Handmaid's Tale", can not help but be struck with the chilling similarities to this fictional futuristic society and the current political strength of the so called "Christian" Right. Thus....all the more reason to summon our very best manners, our warmest hearts, our deepest empathy, and our most open minded abilities to listen and understand what drive those with whom we disagree.

In their most broad interpretations, many of the major religions of the world are remarkably similar in their most basic beliefs. "Love one another." ....for example. Hard to argue with the basics.

To return to the original post on this thread, for those inclined to engage in a search for common ground, perhaps, ""Change no man's religion,..." is a much needed reminder to all of us, although ....the very next part of that sentence, "...change no man's politics", is not a phrase that gives me any sort of hope for our future. And so.... I do understand the intense emotions of this discussion. All this said, I wish the discussion could have resulted in an exchange of insights as I do believe we all could benefit from a meeting of minds.

Right now, our country is more divided, more angry, more inclined to fight and cite lies and BS as facts, than any time in my entire life...and I am OLD. Personal disclaimer....most of my life, simply because of where I was "planted", through no choice of my own, I have had one foot on both sides of many issues. My father's family settled the mountains of North Carolina in 1700. Confederates, Baptists, proud military veterans. My mother's family emigrated from Ireland the day the Civil War started and when they came down the gang plank in New York there were riots in the street over the enlistment of the Irish by the Union. My uncle was a graduate of Annapolis, two of my cousins were drafted and fought in Viet Nam. I was a young teenager in a very liberal suburb where EVERYONE, especially my teachers, protested the war. The only way to peace was through an open heart, an open mind, and good manners.

IMHO, right now we DESPERATELY need to understand what drives those with whom we strongly disagree. Another disclaimer... I HATE DONALD TRUMP and all he has done to divide our country and hurt our image internationally. As such, since I am aware the OP was a Trump supporter in the election, I could be inclined to dismiss his opinions and thoughts and consider him an enemy. However, I also know he is a long time member here on DDN, was a generous contributor to a DDN fundraiser years ago (put his $$ where his mouth is, so to speak), has withstood much criticism and sustained many personal attacks and still views us as "good people". Perhaps, none of us are one or even two dimensional and worthy of the benefit of the doubt when attempting communication with the rest of us.

I miss the good old days of DDN. Perhaps in these days of limited participation, we might find a way to encourage more participation by demonstrating a willingness to accept all members with an open heart.

Hugs to all....

Keep On Dancing*
re: Change nobody's religion
By schuhplattlerPremium member
On Thu Mar 22, 2018 09:17 PM
Once again Christine comes through. Thank you very, very much.

Indeed, many of the religions of the world ARE remarkably similar. Our own creed can be written on a single page, reads like a statement of human rights, and I doubt that any part of it conflicts with any major religion. It does not, in any way, mandate that one changes religions. www.scientology.org . . .
re: Change nobody's religion
By Theresamember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:25 AM
If you want to make this about my personal defects - and you do, apparently - that's fine. I'm not bothered. However, if someone chooses to quote Scientology to me, I'm well within my rights - Free Speech, ya dig - to question it.

Christine wrote:

~
It saddens me to see the level of hostility exhibited here. If I am not mistaken, this forum is, "Religion", and as such, it is odd to see such hostile posts as the only replies to a seemingly benign conversation starter. (Was it the "LRH" attribution that sparked the reaction?)

Upon further thought, I suppose it shouldn't surprise me too much. Throughout history, far too much blood has been shed in the name of "Religion" and even here on DDN, a community I have long held near and dear to my heart, many of the most contentious threads over the years have been on the "Religion" boards. I admit, I am NOT well versed in the tenets of this particular religion. I am also aware that often, one man's religion is another man's cult. I used to live within striking distance of a large estate that served as headquarters for, "The Unification Church". The members called them selves "Missionaries", the locals called them Cult Members, or victims. The shorthand, "Moonies", seemed no more abrasive than "Quakers" or "Mormons" to most of us, however this was a label which members of the Reverend Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church found demeaning and offensive.... who knew? Just as my exposure to the Moonies was a bit closer than the evening news, I also worked in an office where "Watchtower Farms" were good customers of the company I worked for. Again, it was a greater exposure than most "outsiders" experience when people knock on their doors offering copies of, "The Watchtower". On an intellectual level, I had grave differences with both the Moonies and the Jehoah's Witnesses, as I know many others have with The Vatican; but on a human level, I felt compassion for the needy adults drawn to the Sun Myung Moon and Kingdom Hall, although my heart ached for the children of these adults. Again, perhaps the same can be said for many of Catholics or Southern Baptists. Religion, by it's very definition, is a matter of belief, not facts, and as such discussions tend to be difficult when beliefs clash.

As I said, I am not remotely well versed in the Church of Scientology yet I do understand that those who have had childhood experiences in this church or others like Jehovah's Witnesses, many Mormon sects, many Evangelical Christian churches, and even the Amish, have strong feelings based on their own experiences which they are legitimately entitled to. I know several people raised as Southern Baptists or Roman Catholics who also have these strong feelings and although for me, being raised Catholic was simply as much a part of my family inheritance as my blue eyes, I do understand and respect their right to their own ever evolving point of view. It is only through open communication and empathy any of us can hope to further understanding and affect change, if necessary.

All this said....I do understand that many do feel a responsibility to 'guard the gate". We do not have to dig too deeply to see the profound danger of the mystical power of religion...any religion....to impact society. Here in America, we have the freedom to practice any religion of our choice but more importantly, we also have freedom FROM religion, which is the foundation of our Constitution's provision for a separation of church and state. Anyone who has read Margaret Atwood's, "The Handmaid's Tale", can not help but be struck with the chilling similarities to this fictional futuristic society and the current political strength of the so called "Christian" Right. Thus....all the more reason to summon our very best manners, our warmest hearts, our deepest empathy, and our most open minded abilities to listen and understand what drive those with whom we disagree.

In their most broad interpretations, many of the major religions of the world are remarkably similar in their most basic beliefs. "Love one another." ....for example. Hard to argue with the basics.

To return to the original post on this thread, for those inclined to engage in a search for common ground, perhaps, ""Change no man's religion,..." is a much needed reminder to all of us, although ....the very next part of that sentence, "...change no man's politics", is not a phrase that gives me any sort of hope for our future. And so.... I do understand the intense emotions of this discussion. All this said, I wish the discussion could have resulted in an exchange of insights as I do believe we all could benefit from a meeting of minds.

Right now, our country is more divided, more angry, more inclined to fight and cite lies and BS as facts, than any time in my entire life...and I am OLD. Personal disclaimer....most of my life, simply because of where I was "planted", through no choice of my own, I have had one foot on both sides of many issues. My father's family settled the mountains of North Carolina in 1700. Confederates, Baptists, proud military veterans. My mother's family emigrated from Ireland the day the Civil War started and when they came down the gang plank in New York there were riots in the street over the enlistment of the Irish by the Union. My uncle was a graduate of Annapolis, two of my cousins were drafted and fought in Viet Nam. I was a young teenager in a very liberal suburb where EVERYONE, especially my teachers, protested the war. The only way to peace was through an open heart, an open mind, and good manners.

IMHO, right now we DESPERATELY need to understand what drives those with whom we strongly disagree. Another disclaimer... I HATE DONALD TRUMP and all he has done to divide our country and hurt our image internationally. As such, since I am aware the OP was a Trump supporter in the election, I could be inclined to dismiss his opinions and thoughts and consider him an enemy. However, I also know he is a long time member here on DDN, was a generous contributor to a DDN fundraiser years ago (put his $$ where his mouth is, so to speak), has withstood much criticism and sustained many personal attacks and still views us as "good people". Perhaps, none of us are one or even two dimensional and worthy of the benefit of the doubt when attempting communication with the rest of us.

I miss the good old days of DDN. Perhaps in these days of limited participation, we might find a way to encourage more participation by demonstrating a willingness to accept all members with an open heart.

Hugs to all....

Keep On Dancing*
re: Change nobody's religion
By ChristinePremium member
On Sun Mar 25, 2018 01:10 PM
Edited by Christine (207347) on 2018-03-25 13:26:54 fixed mark-ups....quotes have changed
Edited by Christine (207347) on 2018-03-25 13:35:52 this editing is more cumbersome than it looks...
Theresa wrote:

If you want to make this about my personal defects - and you do, apparently - that's fine. I'm not bothered. However, if someone chooses to quote Scientology to me, I'm well within my rights - Free Speech, ya dig - to question it.
~
My sincerest apologies if my remarks, the 6th comment following posts by 3 different members, were misunderstood. It was not my intention to harshly judge ANYONE nor did I intend to accuse anyone of having ANY personal defects. "and you do" ....NO, I don't, and YES, I agree that it is certainly well within the rights of all members to express their opinions, especially when a post on a discussion board is an invitation to express such opinions. This should apply to all. You, Sumayah, the OP, and myself. It seems to me, this entire thread was, from its initial inception, an invitation to discussion.

As such, the "conversation starter", posted by the OP did certainly invite comment. It is reasonable to assume the poster had an expectation that the comments that followed would be in the context of the "prompt". The arcane remark that followed may have seemed a reasonable volley to those with a knowledge of Scientology but for those who do not, "Where's Shelly", put us at a distinct disadvantage to participate in an adult discussion, however "lively". Had I started a post hoping to start a conversation about my own religion, and posted, "Love One Another", or "Whatsoever you do for the least of my brothers, so you do unto me.", and the response was, "How many altar boys have been molested since Vatican II?", it may have been received as hostile, don't you agree?

In defense of ALL who posted before I did, I think we can ALL also agree that there is certainly a blurred line on the edges of certain "religions" that tend to fall on the far ends of the spectrum, and when I wrote, "I am also aware that often, one man's religion is another man's cult", and went on to use a "Religion" not personally experienced by any of us commenting on the thread as an example(the Reverend Sun Myung Moon's Unification Church) I hoped my comments would be understood to be non-personal, heartfelt intellectual observations regarding the spiritual quests of the human condition, and NOT an attack on any other posters.

In fact, my whole point....and again I offer my sincerest apologies if I failed to communicate this effectively... was a plea for NON-PERSONAL attacks on others. As I also pointed out, "Upon further thought, I suppose it shouldn't surprise me too much. Throughout history, far too much blood has been shed in the name of "Religion" and even here on DDN, a community I have long held near and dear to my heart, many of the most contentious threads over the years have been on the 'Religion' boards. " It is not my intention here to engage in a snarky exchange with any or all of the posters. My response was, as I stated, "sadness", not anger, not judgement. It was a plea for a return to the kinder, gentler days of an exchange of ideas among adult members of a community who had something positive in common, with an eye to the example we were setting to the younger members among us. I tried to move my comments away from the particulars of the "religion" under attack, as the thread had already dissolved away from the original post. Additionally, on another thread, the pain of personal experiences of a similarly "Cult like" religion as experienced by a child, now adult, were real, valid, and likely to be misunderstood as argumentative. There are some DDN members who "lurk", do not comment, because their deeply held convictions to their Evangelical Christian churches seem to invite attack. I know dance educators, LDS members, who will not participate on DDN because they feel unwelcome. I did enumerate several other such "religions" in a further attempt to keep things non-personal. Sorry if my attempt to generalize failed.

I was raised with certain rules of polite society ...."Never discuss politics, religion, or money, in social situation." When I see the hostility and division facing society at the moment I understand this dictate much more than I did when I was 12 years old and my mother and grandmother whispered this advice to me at a ladies' afternoon tea when my comments veered toward forbidden territory. Unfortunately, the initial discussion here was posted under the heading of one of those forbidden territories, and the posted guidelines on these boards seemed to indicate, to me anyway, that regardless of the volatility of the topic, there were reasonable expectations of engagement.

Again, again, again..... I apologize if my comments were misunderstood. Of late, it seems, many of my comments here are received in a much different light than they were intended. My attempts to offer a way to peace have been twisted more than once to invite defensive retorts, and perceptions of criticism, completely the opposite of my intentions. When I attempt to help re-frame a perception to help bring peace, I have been scolded and misunderstood.

I can not help but wonder if this type of dynamic has contributed to the decline of DDN. For several years now, I have heard from other members privately, that drama, a rush to judgement, and over all snarky/mean girl replies to simple musings are reasons they no longer participate here. As you may be aware, for a long while I have attempted many initiatives to rekindle the glory days of sharing, support, humor, kindness, and acceptance of diversity, here among the community of dancers. Throughout the ages, Dance...all arts... have been a saving grace in the survival dynamics of human relations when politics, religion, and fighting, have failed. I will continue to believe in this ideal and hope things improve here as I would hate to see this community die forever.

Once more, I offer my my heartfelt apologies to all three posters if my remarks and intentions were misunderstood. I love you all and feel terrible that my attempt at peacemaking caused pain and the perception of attack, ironically, the exact opposite of what I set out to accomplish.

"Bless me Father, I have sinned...."

Keep On Dancing*

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