Forum: Ballet / Ballet Photos - Misc

Ballet Photos - Misc
Copyrighted pictures
By imadanseurPremium member Comments: 16604, member since Thu Dec 04, 2003
On Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:35 PM
Made sticky by imadanseur (79325) on 2005-08-15 22:35:38
Edited by linh (3) on 2005-08-27 03:32:08 Changed text to clarify the rules, hope you don't mind, imadanseur. The original was "You may not post copyrighted pictures, or pictures with watermarks from other websites. It is illegal, and your post will be removed. Please respect the photographer's and artist's rights."

You may post copyrighted photographs if you properly attribute the source/photographer and properly discuss the dancer or subject in a constructive and educational way. We ask you don't post photos with a watermark or website address embedded since that detracts from properly viewing a photo.
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In US copyright law, a copyrighted work may be reproduced for the non-commercial purposes of reporting, criticism, review, etc. This is known as "fair use."
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With this said, it is still better (though not strictly required) to get permission before posting a photo. But dance.net will generally honor any photographer's wishes regarding the use of her/his photographs.
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(The above was written by Linh to clarify the rules, hope you don't mind Imadanseur)

23 Replies to Copyrighted pictures

re: Copyrighted pictures
By quelle_nightmaremember has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 1412, member since Mon Sep 06, 2004
On Tue Aug 16, 2005 07:41 PM
thanks for this. just to add, if you DO know the name of the photographer (and one should make every effort to find out) please please PLEASE post it. As a photographer, I can't stress how insulting it is to not have your work credited.
re: Copyrighted pictures
By SpiralBallet Comments: 1306, member since Fri May 07, 2004
On Wed Aug 17, 2005 01:24 AM
Thanks for informing us! I think it is the right thing to do!
re: Copyrighted pictures
By Kathymember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 10713, member since Wed Mar 05, 2003
On Wed Aug 17, 2005 05:20 AM
Oh yes, it´s very depressing to see selftaken pictures and no one says it was you who made it. It makes me very sad to see my pics like that somewhere floating around.
I´m just trying to find out the names of the photographers of all balletpics I have collected during several years, not easy, because usually NO ONE tells you who made it. :(

Kathy
re: Copyrighted pictures
By imadanseurPremium member Comments: 16604, member since Thu Dec 04, 2003
On Wed Aug 17, 2005 07:48 AM
If the photographer's name is on the picture that is a form of copyrighting as well. It may just be on the side of the picture, but we consider that a kind of watermark.
re: Copyrighted pictures (karma: 1)
By WelshGuy Comments: 157, member since Mon Jun 27, 2005
On Wed Aug 17, 2005 03:16 PM
But is anybody on ddn making any money from posting these images? That's what a photographer should be worried about. And whilst THEY are not getting paid for their photos appearing here they are however receiving FREE publicity for their work. I suppose it's swings and roundabouts. They get their work promoted and we get an awful lot of pleasure from it. Some websites disable the "right click" function so perhaps if anybody is really concerned that their work is being used without their knowledge then perhaps they might consider making it impossible for people to download the photos in the first place.

Just my thoughts,
Jake.
re: Copyrighted pictures
By imadanseurPremium member Comments: 16604, member since Thu Dec 04, 2003
On Wed Aug 17, 2005 03:21 PM
Well if people can download the pictures, enlarge them and not have to buy them, then they are screwing the photographer!

It doesn't make it right to post copyrighted pictures here. We are protecting the website from any legal action from photographers and other websites as much as we can.
re: Copyrighted pictures
By Elle02Premium member Comments: 150, member since Mon Sep 13, 2004
On Wed Aug 17, 2005 03:23 PM
Edited by LauraEA (106247) on 2005-08-17 15:26:13
I agree with Jake. While I respect the photographers work and how upseting it is not to be credited. I think that if you don't want your pictures to be downloaded then you should make it impossible for them to be taken off your webpage or put a watermark on it. I'm not condoning people who do not credit photographers, because you should if you know who it is and I would never do that. But if I don't know who took the picture, I'm not going to research for hours to find out. Maybe that's why I don't post pictures on here. Well that and I'm not smart enough to figure it out.

P.S. imadanseur got in before me. I understand what you are trying to do. I would do the same thing if I were you. I was just stating my opinion for those that get upset that their pictures aren't credited.
re: Copyrighted pictures
By imadanseurPremium member Comments: 16604, member since Thu Dec 04, 2003
On Wed Aug 17, 2005 03:31 PM
If the photographer isn't posted that isn't a terms of service violation and the post won't be deleted because of it...we just need to keep copyrighted pictures off here. If we find pictures that are copyrighted we'll delete them. I know nobody is doing it on purpose and sometimes you don't realize the picture is copyrighted, sometimes we get a mod report from someone that actually owns the picture etc.

It's just a reminder. :)
re: Copyrighted pictures
By WelshGuy Comments: 157, member since Mon Jun 27, 2005
On Wed Aug 17, 2005 03:48 PM
Here's another thought. Aren't all photos copyrighted? Do they HAVE to carry the copyright message? In the UK if you write a story you own all the rights to it. You don't have to register the piece of work. It's automatically your copyright. In effect this message is copyright ME and not ddn. Now I don't want to sound awkward but the only way to protect photographers is to close the ballet photos-misc forum. As I said, the rights to ALL photos will be owned by someone therefore aren't we all guilty of copyright infringement?

It's a really tricky one. Perhaps the advice of a Solicitor who specializes in this type of thing should be sought. Remember, this comment is owned by me (LOL), only joking.

Jake.
re: Copyrighted pictures
By imadanseurPremium member Comments: 16604, member since Thu Dec 04, 2003
On Wed Aug 17, 2005 03:58 PM
No, not all pictures are copyrighted. I am sure there are some that are copyrighted and just don't have a watermark or the copyright showing on the picture. Not our problem...we cannot leave copyrighted pictures on here or we are open for legal action from other places.

Is this really a huge debate? Are we taking away your rights?
re: Copyrighted pictures
By gymnast_Premium member Comments: 3333, member since Sun Aug 29, 2004
On Wed Aug 17, 2005 08:58 PM
Edited by gymnast_ (104857) on 2005-08-17 21:10:21
Edited by gymnast_ (104857) on 2005-08-17 21:13:23
If there is no watermark or copyright logo (C) on the picture itself - the copyright law cannot be enforced.
re: Copyrighted pictures
By quelle_nightmaremember has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 1412, member since Mon Sep 06, 2004
On Thu Aug 18, 2005 09:44 AM
But it's not always as simple as that. Many photographers, myself included, don't want to watermark their images because they gunk up the pictures. And what you said about free publicity - ok, that's true, nothing would please me more than someone posting my work and saying 'hey, I like these' but it would piss me off a lot if they didn't say WHO had taken them or linked back to my page, and it would piss me off even more if they tried to pass them off as their own (which always, always happens).
And as for the whole disabling the save-as function - again, not that simple. You can always do a screencap of it and then save it. And like imadanseur said, " Well if people can download the pictures, enlarge them and not have to buy them, then they are screwing the photographer!" Isn't there a thread about downloading and printing pictures off the internet on the first page? I admit, that IS a good idea and I've done it myself, however I think it's best, if you can, to ask the photographer first if they wouldn't mind.

The thing about art and the internet is that it's a double edged sword: It's public domain so everyone gets to see it and you get a lot of publicity for your work; on top of that it means that EVERYONE, even some kid living in on a farm in the middle of a field gets to learn about modern art. But it opens up so much room for plagarism. Who's to say that the photographs I have posted on my site (Plug! Plug! Plug!) are, in fact, mine, and not stolen from some random livejournal user?
Well, I am, but that's beside the point.

Point is, we HAVE no way of knowing or securing anything, but just for posterity's sake, let's say we do and make at least a base effort to respect rights.
re: Copyrighted pictures
By gymnast_Premium member Comments: 3333, member since Sun Aug 29, 2004
On Thu Aug 18, 2005 08:19 PM
Edited by gymnast_ (104857) on 2005-08-18 20:24:16
quelle_nightmare,

I see your point and I sympathize with the plight of photographers. You might not want to watermark your picture since it might spoil the impression of the picture that you are trying to protect. In this case, you might want to to put © symbol at the bottom right corner. Yes, that can be cut off and erased, but there are fewer chances of this happening, because one would also have to cut off ballerina's feet along with the logo, as an example.

There is no feasible way to prevent people from posting and using unmarked picture, since there is no way for them to know if they are copyrighted at the first place. After all pictures tend to travel from site to site. Besides, that would be a violation of their rights.

Internet is a public domain and public has rights. For instance, no one prevents you from quoting from some famous novel. You don't always ask authers' permission, do you? I believe that fair compromise between the rights of the public and the rights of a photographer is to mark the photo that s/he cares to protect.

Having said that, I believe we should take trouble to give credit to a photographer in one way or another when posting a picture.
re: Copyrighted pictures
By AmberBallerina Comments: 800, member since Mon Apr 04, 2005
On Tue Aug 23, 2005 06:55 AM
Edited by AmberBallerina (127511) on 2005-08-23 07:19:30
I have always wondered if it is ok to put a photo from the Internet in your Avatar? Is that ok? Not ones that have water-marks etc, but just one that isn't yours.
I have had a number of different Avatars from photos that weren't my own, but thought it may not be allowed so I now have one that I took of my own legs because it feels safer! Hope this isn't a stupid queston...it probably is!
Love Amber x
Copyright law (karma: 2)
By ryoung Comments: 65, member since Sun Mar 27, 2005
On Sat Aug 27, 2005 02:28 AM
Edited by ryoung (126735) on 2005-08-27 03:18:25 To correct minor typo...
An interesting subject that deserves further debate as it's extremely important and greatly misunderstood by many, as can be seen so far from earlier posts. I'm an artist and hence have needed to do some research into this for my work. Although I'm certainly no expert, my understanding regarding European copyright law is very briefly such that:
1. It is not necessary for the photographer or copright owner to put a watermark on a photo to copyright it. It's automatic.
2. The photographer owns copyright unless he was paid or employed to take the photograph.
3. There is no copyright for photographs taken before 1946 and subsequently expires 70 years after the photograph was first taken or published, whichever is later.
4. It is virtually impossible to prevent anyone from downloading the electronic file from a website. Simply take a look in the Documents and Settings sub folders via Explorer.
5. Although the copyright owner has exclusive permission for internet transmission, copyright is NOT infringed by non commercial transient or incidental transmittal and for criticism and review (i.e. - it's purpose is not solely to transmit the photo. So Dance.net is OK, which is a discussion and educational forum) However, credit of the copyright owner should be given when known.
6. This also applies to video stills, avitars and manipulations of photographs.
7. For great further reading, I suggest to visit www.artquest.org.uk . . . and the links to other pages down the left side. I have some other excellent references if anyone wishes.
Best wishes
Richard
www.ryoung-art.com
re: Copyrighted pictures (karma: 1)
By linhPremium member Comments: 2688, member since Sun Mar 07, 1999
On Sat Aug 27, 2005 03:18 AM
A new work is automatically copyrighted. You don't actually need to place a copyright notice or a watermark for it to be so (though registering a copyright with the country's copyright office will give you greater legal standing and the ability to exact statutory penalties). However, with that said, Ryoung is correct with his descriptions above especially with:
5. Although the copyright owner has exclusive permission for internet transmission, copyright is NOT infringed by non commercial transient or incidental transmittal and for criticism and review (i.e. - it's purpose is not solely to transmit the photo. So Dance.net is OK, which is a discussion and educational forum) However, credit of the copyright owner should be given when known.

In US Copyright Law, this is known as "fair use" where you may reproduce another copyrighted work for purposes of non-commercial criticism or review. Copyright is not absolute. It is a time-limited protection given by the government to protect an artist's means of income, but fair use allows the greater good of education to trump those rights especially in a non-commercial setting. (In other words, the posters aren't trying to make money off the artists' work by posting them here.) These postings on dance.net bring attention to these works and serve a higher educational purpose.

The important thing is for posters to acknowledge the source and to properly review or critique the photo and/or the subject. Meaningless comments like "that's pretty" or "cool photo" don't add much to discussions and are simply star farming. So really discuss and critique photos, technique, and the dancer subjects.

Linh
re: Copyrighted pictures
By imadanseurPremium member Comments: 16604, member since Thu Dec 04, 2003
On Sat Aug 27, 2005 08:15 AM
Thanks for clarifying Linh!! :D
re: Copyrighted pictures
By gymnast_Premium member Comments: 3333, member since Sun Aug 29, 2004
On Mon Aug 29, 2005 12:08 PM

Meaningless comments like "that's pretty" or "cool photo" don't add much to discussions and are simply star farming. So really discuss and critique photos, technique, and the dancer subjects

Excellent point, Linh! :)
re: Copyrighted pictures
By BethsButt Comments: 20, member since Sun Sep 11, 2005
On Mon Sep 19, 2005 02:36 PM
Well that clears up a lot of questions i had....thanks
re: Copyrighted pictures
By MystikMinxmember has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 620, member since Mon Mar 07, 2005
On Sun Oct 16, 2005 08:35 PM
Um, so does this mean we can post a picture with a copyright or watermark or whatever on it, as long as we also include in the post who the photographer was and where we got it?

Sorry I'm a bit slow and tired tonight. If someone could either reply here or PM me that would be great.

Thanks,
Kiki :D
re: Copyrighted pictures
By gymnast_Premium member Comments: 3333, member since Sun Aug 29, 2004
On Mon Oct 24, 2005 07:12 PM
Edited by gymnast_ (104857) on 2005-10-24 20:32:46
I know what you mean, MystikMinx! It‘s awfully confusing!

I believe it's not required to mention a photographer name since a pic is already watermarked. And you don't have to ask for a photographer's permission when a picture is being used for educational and/or transient purposes, i.e. non-commercial. But it is a good net-etiquette to either ask for it or at least to mention a photographer's name. It's only fair, isn't it?
:)
copyright
By spargs Comments: 24, member since Mon Aug 29, 2005
On Tue Nov 01, 2005 08:45 AM
Thanks for the info. I hope to publish a whole stack of dance pics soon so I guess recognition is fair.
re: Copyrighted pictures
By blochballerina22 Comments: 44, member since Sat Jun 30, 2007
On Sun Nov 04, 2007 07:38 AM
good to no thanx!

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