Forum: Skating / Figure Skating

Now what do you think of the new judging system?
By Jumpmember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Sun Dec 11, 2005 04:12 AM

Hey all :)
After about half a year using the new points scoring system, what do you all think? There's a post about this earlier, but now that there have been quite a few competitions using the new scoring system I think we'd be able to judge better.
Personally I still have quite a long way to go until I understand the scoring system.
It definately has changed the way skaters have choreographed their programmes. I miss the long held spins in one positon. Nowadays most skaters hold each position for about 4 or 5 rounds and then quickly change to a different position or foot. Sadly alot of their spin combinations are similar - camel, (grab foot camel) bielmann (sp?), back camel, beilmann.
The spirals are all the 'michelle kwan' change-edge spirals too.

What do you all think?

15 Replies to Now what do you think of the new judging system?

re: Now what do you think of the new judging system?
By SunshinePointemember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Sun Dec 11, 2005 08:36 AM
I think that the CoP has pretty much "ruined" individuality and creativity in the skating world. On one hand, yes, choreographers do need to come up with inventive ways to set the skater apart from the rest of the field, but on the other like you said, if I see one more camel/layback/bielmann combo I'm gonna scream.

Seriously, I think the new scoring system makes it easier to judge but I feel like so much is lost with the way things are now :(
re: Now what do you think of the new judging system?
By nanersmom
On Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:03 PM
I am still trying to get used to this system. But I agree with you guys. The programs are starting to look cookie cutter to me. Where is the fun in the program? All I see " gotta get the bonus points ". I am aslo tired of hearing the commentators telling me that " that jump was after the halfway point, so that X amount of bonus for her/him/them ".
re: Now what do you think of the new judging system?
By Jazz_rosey19
On Sun Dec 11, 2005 09:22 PM
Ok I am going ot be the weird one here but I love the new system I believe that it works and it actually makes the skaters work, not to say the oold system didn't but I like how it makes the skaters focus on the artistic side I think
it makes the routines more interesting to watch. One thing I don't agree with is giving the quad more points because then it will be just like the old system were it's all about he quad and if you don't have it you won't win and if you notice most of the men that have tried it over the years have been injured look at Alexei Yagudin and Evegeni Plushenko both have been hurt because of that. But all in all I really like the new system and I think it will make this olympics a lot more fair and it gives the up and coming skaters a chance to get a medal instead of the "Favorites".
*Megan*
(A.K.A. Jazz_rosey19)
re: Now what do you think of the new judging system?
By SunshinePointemember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Mon Dec 12, 2005 07:59 AM
^ but that doesn't just apply to the quad, that's any element now. If the ladies don't have a triple triple combo they wont win against someone who does, or if they don't have a bielmann they won't win against someone who does. And therein lies the flaw with the new system. There isn't much room for creativity within programs because everyone is trying the same thing. I will agree that it makes it easier to determine a clear cut winner but I get tired of seeing the same programs again. And, as much as I love the Biellman, I'm tired of seeing Irina bent in half throughout her program.
re: Now what do you think of the new judging system?
By Jazz_rosey19
On Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:32 PM
Edited by Jazz_rosey19 (79083) on 2005-12-12 12:35:38
Back in the old days of the old system yes that was were the it was going for the ladies you had to do a triple triple but it's not like that anymore BECAUSE of the system Susie Wynn in fact I think even said that it has steered away from that because a lot of the girls were getting injured actually if you notice Irina is the only doing triple triple combos (I think) but I think with all the girls doing bielmans (sp?) I think it's just a fad thing like everyone is doing it just like with girls having the same music, it's whats popular this year not because it will you give you higher points it may but I don't think it will continue, there are some girls who don't do the bielman but they still get good marks from the system. So I don't think it's the system thats at fault. There are some good and bad points to the sysytem but all in all I think it works and it's fair.
*Megan*
(A.K.A. Jazz_rosey19)
re: Now what do you think of the new judging system?
By SunshinePointemember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Mon Dec 12, 2005 01:38 PM
Well, on this I do agree with you - I think that everyone is trying to adjust to the new system and see what works for them, and yes, Bielmanns are trendy but I don't see them going away, just used differently over the next coming years :)
re: Now what do you think of the new judging system?
By Jumpmember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Tue Dec 13, 2005 02:50 AM
Correct me if i'm wrong okay?
I thought the system was such that extra points were given for different positions in a spin combination - so thus the limited spin variations. Everyone wants those bonus points so when they do a camel - it goes in to a catch-foot camel and logically into a beilmann (3 positions) then into a back camel, back catch foot and back beilmann. Thats why beilmann's are all over the place nowdays.

Yeah I agree about the quad, triple-triple combination jumps. If you can't jump big and do a quad or triple-triple, the odds are against you if there is another competitior who can do them. Irina isnt the only one doing triple-triples right? I've seen them off Mao Asada, Czisny, Kimmi Meissner and Arakawa (i think). + with Miki Ando's quad salchow attempt and various triple axel atempts, I think that's the way the jumps are gonna go.
re: Now what do you think of the new judging system?
By RodneysGlory
On Wed Dec 14, 2005 09:47 PM
I don't like the cookie cutter programs either. I think that once everyone gets used to the new system there will be more inventive programs. At least.. I hope. Hopefully we'll all get used to it and things will be fine soon.
re: Now what do you think of the new judging system?
By ballerina84member has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:06 PM
Edited by ballerina84 (97786) on 2005-12-14 22:13:53
I just get tired of hearing the commentators saying how many points each element earned instead of actually critiquing them. It's a shame that the points are the main focus of the commentating now. Hopefully that will wear off soon as the new system is used more.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but just because you don't have a triple-triple doesn't mean you're not going to win over someone who does. You can get a lot of extra points from other elements. If you have a lot of fast, inventive spins you can get a lot of points for them. And I don't know the exact point values, but I'm pretty sure a triple-double-double combo can earn close the same amount of points as for a triple-triple or quad.
re: Now what do you think of the new judging system?
By Jumpmember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Fri Dec 16, 2005 01:46 AM
^^
Probably, but like I said, I don't really know how the point scoring works when it comes to spins vs jumps and non-technical elements.
I only get to watch videos of the competitions so I don't get the commentators nagging. ;)
re: Now what do you think of the new judging system? (karma: 1)
By Irishqueen
On Sat Dec 31, 2005 04:13 PM
Edited by Irishqueen (96799) on 2005-12-31 16:14:46
I HATE IT!!!!
I especially hate the fact that the judges now have instant replay...seriously...this is not football. The whole point was that it was a subjective sport...next their going to start adding instant replay at dance competitions ( can you imagine ballet or tap or irish dance with IR?)
One of the most important lessons was the importance of a smile and the ability to act like nothing had happened if you fell, put a hand down etc. If the judges didnt see it, and you just kept going, then they didnt deduct,
I'm not saying that I liked the fact that Tara Lipinski won with a cheated lutz, or that little kids could win on the "cute factor" alone. However, it was a sacrifice worth making in order to keep the total artistry alive. Now, judges are too busy looking at their computer screens trying to decide if the jump was PERFECTLY on the right edge to notice any of the amazing artistry that skating is...or at least, was, until it became a competition for how many positions you could hit in one spin...instead of how WELL you could do the positions you did.
Plus, with the new system, you can't ever reach "perfection", that is, a 6.0...Now there is no way for a judge to say "I really couldnt have made that better...good job"
We remember Torvill and Dean, even those who are too young to have seen them skate, because for one performance...they were perfect and recieved the 6.0s to prove it. Its sad that no skater will ever have that again.
Anyway, sorry for the rant...it would be much more coherent if I didnt have to run...
re: Now what do you think of the new judging system?
By Jazz_rosey19
On Sat Dec 31, 2005 04:52 PM
Edited by Jazz_rosey19 (79083) on 2005-12-31 16:58:23
I don't agree with that this whole system is supposed to be about artistry and RUDUCE the the possibility of judges cheating like what happend in Salt Lake City, the fact that you think that the skaters can never reach PERFECTION without the 6.0 is dumb there is no perfect skater and there never will be and normaly for like the men lets say back then all the men had to have a quad to win and of they didn't then they lost no matter what, now with the newer system it gives the skaters who have the artistry and maybe not the quad a chance to shine I mean look at Johnny Weir he doesn't have the quad and yet he has had an incredible year and a number of other male skaters who don't do the quad. And now with the ladies I honestly believe that with everyone who is doing the beilmen I think it's like a fad kinda thing it's what is popular and with everyone coming up and doing different moves and different spins I think it makes it better it adds varitey and hey if I can be blunt it tells skaters like Michelle and other veterans that they need to up the ante and actually work to get on the podium instead of reling on reputation because that seems to me that is what has been going on more and more skaters are reling more on there reps and past performances and they say "oh well my skating is good enough I don't need to keep up with the others I can keep right on doing what I am doing and that is fine, and I'm not following the fads" well not any more skaters need to actually work to get on the podium, I'm not saying every skater needs the beilmen but they do need to up there skating as a whole artistry, and there jumps. Ok I am done for my rant.
*Megan*
(A.K.A. Jazz_rosey19)
re: Now what do you think of the new judging system?
By Irishqueen
On Sat Dec 31, 2005 06:35 PM
Edited by Irishqueen (96799) on 2005-12-31 18:36:35
^^ There is such a thing as relative perfection, that's what the former system was based on, who came the closest to that "relative perfect" mark. Considering the limits of human capabilities, I would say that, for any given skating era, there is such a thing as perfection...the way that the sport evolved is by the continual changing of the definition of the aformentioned perfection. The new system simply does not alow for this.
I agree that Michelle has great work to do. However, I don't believe that she can be accused of running on reputation. She was (and is) an amazing skater and artist. When she was running undefeated, she was at the top of the athletics as well as at the top of artistry. She was completing all of the top jumps and spins. She was slipping in rankings before the judging change. The sport had evolved and Michelle, who was juggling college, and advertising career and skating, failed to evolve along with it. Again, this occured long before the judging change. Blaming it on the new system, as so many commentators are fond of doing...is an attempt to cover up her inability to evolve with the sport and is an insult to her intelligence(though she is not above saying it herself occasionally). She is more than capable of figuring out the new system.
Though I disagree with much of the arguments for the new system, your opinion is certainly valid and I respect it. Though I can't say I appreciate having my opinion refered to as "dumb".
re: Now what do you think of the new judging system?
By Jazz_rosey19
On Sat Dec 31, 2005 09:23 PM
I apoligize for the comment and I also respect what you half to say, I think in a way a skater in there own minds have ther eown idea of what perfection means to them and I don't think it's the same for every skater and like yourself if your a skater you may have different goals and thoughts about what you need to acheive perfection in your skating. But I also think that this new system is a lot more fair to the up and comming skaters because it seems like with the older system we saw the same skaters over and over again on the podium and there wasn't really a change and I think with this new system it changes all of that it gives people like Johnny, Alyssa, all of the up and commers from Japan all of them a chance at the medals and I think with this new system it has made skating better were as with the older system it had A LOT of flaws. But I do want to apoligize for saying your comment was dumb it (no pun intended) wasa dumb thing to say, I always get really into the conversations about the judging and skating in general hehehehe.
*Megan*
(A.K.A. Jazz_rosey19)
re: Now what do you think of the new judging system?
By Irishqueen
On Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:21 PM
^^Hey not a problem :) I'd rather have a good debate with some contention then no debate at all...yet another way that the sport evolves.

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