Forum: Arts / Debates

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re: Teenage Abortion (karma: 3)
By JoyNoellePremium member
On Wed Mar 01, 2006 07:41 AM
^ There are valid arguments for why parents should be notified, but I believe the arguments against it are much more compelling.

Please read (or re-read) my earlier post so this will make sense: I would've preferred DEATH over my parents finding out. That's how bad it would've been for me--and I know other girls have similar family dynamics. As I said before, you can't FORCE the type of parent/child relationship that will nonjudgmentally, supportively, and in an accepting manner handle news like this.

As a parent, I definitely would want to know if my daughter was having an abortion, and I know that I would've felt betrayed and very disappointed if she couldn't tell me--but I worked from DAY ONE of her life to make sure our relationship allowed such discussions. She knew that nothing was off limits--but *I* didn't have that luxury with my parents.

The way I see it, if parents want to know about things as important as pregnancy/abortion in their children, it's up to THEM to create an environment that allows open discussions. If, instead, they've created an oppressive, judgmental, threatening environment, THEY'RE at fault if their children keep secrets from them.
re: Teenage Abortion
By NadiaLadidamember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Wed Mar 01, 2006 08:03 AM
^

Absolutely.

And just because children who have supportive parents are the majority, this doesn't mean that we should turn our backs on the minority.

And that minority is a larger slice of the population than you even know. Most abuse goes unreported, and what *IS* reported is a large enough number for my taste. I was also the data entry coordinator for the above mentioned DV/SA organization, so I punched numbers and answered a Crisis Line for 4 years. You'd be shocked if you had seen and heard some of the things I have seen and heard.

Here's one example:

One family I worked with for about 2 years - Stepdaughter was sexually abused, son suffered neglect(like the mom actually gave him up at one point because boyfriend didn't want him) and physical abuse - both nelect and emotional abuse, actually... The situation was reported to CPS by us SEVERAL times and they never got involved until the mother (beaten by boyfriend), son, and daughter (beaten by mother) showed up at our shelter (again). I took them to the ER, called the police and FINALLY got a reaction from CPS. I had to sit there with those kids all night long while their injuries were photographed and then explain to them why they wouldn't be going home with mom.

And I've got plenty more where that came from.
re: Teenage Abortion
By emaire
On Wed Mar 01, 2006 08:35 AM
Edited by emaire (52930) on 2006-03-01 08:38:18
I understand what you are saying. Still, imagine a 13-year old girl who wants an abortion. Parents normally take care of any minor's health, education, life conditions, family environment until the age of 18 (at least in my country) - here they will not only have any say in it but they will never ever know. They probably have to sign wavers before any minor surgery or when she goes to a summer camp but they will not know that their 13-year old daughter was subject to a medical operation which may in some cases be harmful. She will have to make the desition alone and a young girl under an enormous stress, possibly ashamed or influenced by an equelly scared 14-year old father is not in my opinion able to make this decision responsibly - alone.

I think people should be responsible even at this age. When a grown up woman has sex she should be aware that she may get pregnant. When a girl starts sex life as a teenager she should be aware that she may get pregnant AND she'll have to face her parents about it. If she'd "rather die than tell them" she should not have sex yet. If she's mature enough to have sex she's mature enough to talk to her parents about the consequences of having sex and if we are talking about right what about parents' right to know that their potential grandchildren are being aborted?
re: Teenage Abortion (karma: 1)
By DanceAngel120Premium member
On Thu Mar 02, 2006 01:32 PM
^ But see, once again, you're assuming that the girl in question has a family situation that would allow her to talk to her parents about things like that. But you can't honestly say that you think a responsible young girl should not have sex simply because she can't be "responsible" enough to tell her abusive, crack-adict father that she's going to have an abortion, can you? That's absurd. That has nothing to do with maturity, the girl's situation simply wouldn't allow her to talk to her parents about it. You can't say that if someone can't talk to her parents about sex then they shouldn't be doing it. That doesn't have anything to do with maturity.
re: Teenage Abortion
By NadiaLadidamember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Thu Mar 02, 2006 01:47 PM
^

And just to say, upper-class, financially secure, church-going parents are abusive as well - abusive parents represent a cross-section of every social and economic class.
re: Teenage Abortion
By PinUpGirlmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Thu Mar 02, 2006 02:29 PM
Interesting fact-only 1 in 6 embryos ever make it to eight weeks. The other 5 are expelled in the form of what feels like a heavy period. While you're pondering that...

Abortion is better legal. Teenagers should have access to abortions and I don't think they should be required to notify their parents. I would hope that if my daughter were in that situation, she'd tell me. I wouldn't prevent her from having the abortion, I'd just want to know so I could take care of her after the surgery.
re: Teenage Abortion (karma: 1)
By Heartmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Thu Mar 02, 2006 02:54 PM

The way I see it, if parents want to know about things as important as pregnancy/abortion in their children, it's up to THEM to create an environment that allows open discussions. If, instead, they've created an oppressive, judgmental, threatening environment, THEY'RE at fault if their children keep secrets from them.


I agree COMPLETELY. My parents are pretty good, I'm well off, whatever, but if I needed an abortion there is NO WAY I could go to them for help. They would abuse me. Period. They're borderline abusive anyway, and I know that if they heard something like that, - I just can't even imagine what they would do to me. I'd rather take the risks of getting an abortion illegally than of telling my parents.

If they would react like that, then they don't deserve to know. If they haven't included themselves in my life up till now, they don't deserve to know about anything I deem they shouldn't - including major surgery.
re: Teenage Abortion (karma: 1)
By DanceAngel120Premium member
On Thu Mar 02, 2006 05:05 PM
I'd rather take the risks of getting an abortion illegally than of telling my parents.


Which is exactly my point. Lots of women would rather take the risks of getting an illegal abortion than tell their parents, or carry the baby for 9 months. That, my friends, is called desperation. Desperation causes people to do crazy things. Illegalizing abortion, or forcing minors to have parental consent, would cause complete desperation for many women. You think the thousands of other women in such a desperate situation wouldn't take the risks of an illegal surgery? Well then I say you need to learn a thing or two about history before you start in on politics.
re: Teenage Abortion (karma: 1)
By tumblebugPremium member
On Thu Mar 02, 2006 08:31 PM
The way I see it, if parents want to know about things as important as pregnancy/abortion in their children, it's up to THEM to create an environment that allows open discussions. If, instead, they've created an oppressive, judgmental, threatening environment, THEY'RE at fault if their children keep secrets from them.


Um no. The parents are not at fault if their child keeps secrets from them in most cases. Lots of parents do try to establish a good relationship with their child but there just comes a point, usually around age 12/13, where lots of kids start to shy away from their parents. Its perfectly normal and happens in some of the most supportive, loving environments. Wait until you have your own daughter, then come back and try this debate again. An abortion is an invasive medical procedure and I expect Parental Consent to be involved as with all medical procedures.

Those abuse cases some of you are babbling about how the child wouldn't be able to get parental consent. Heck if their homelife really is that dangerous, most likely their pregnancy will end in an early miscarriage anyway. Maybe there should be some kind of medical intervention plan for those cases in particular, but for the rest of us out there-parental consent should be required.
re: Teenage Abortion
By JoyNoellePremium member
On Thu Mar 02, 2006 09:15 PM
The way I see it, if parents want to know about things as important as pregnancy/abortion in their children, it's up to THEM to create an environment that allows open discussions. If, instead, they've created an oppressive, judgmental, threatening environment, THEY'RE at fault if their children keep secrets from them.

Um no. The parents are not at fault if their child keeps secrets from them in most cases. Lots of parents do try to establish a good relationship with their child but there just comes a point, usually around age 12/13, where lots of kids start to shy away from their parents. Its perfectly normal and happens in some of the most supportive, loving environments. Wait until you have your own daughter, then come back and try this debate again. An abortion is an invasive medical procedure and I expect Parental Consent to be involved as with all medical procedures.
Geesh! Have you actually READ my posts?! First of all, I have an adult daughter; read my other posts to see what kind of relationship she and I have. Second, I grew up in the kind of family that made it impossible to speak about issues like sex/pregnancy/abortion; that, too, was explained in my other posts.
re: Teenage Abortion (karma: 2)
By balletstar05member has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Fri Mar 03, 2006 03:21 AM
The original post seems to have had a lot of negative "what if's"......There are positive "what if's" as well. What if the baby was loved? What if the baby brought the family closer together?

While I am pro-choice, I just think the original poster's reasons were not very well thought-out.

Also - I don't think there seems to be much debate in the world over TEENAGE abortion or um....older people abortions. The debate and controversy is just over abortion. Period.

I think it's a personal decision, and everyone needs to decide what is best for themselves. People choose abortion for MANY different reasons, and they all have different situations that need to be evaluted on a case by case basis.
re: Teenage Abortion
By emaire
On Fri Mar 03, 2006 04:03 AM
Edited by emaire (52930) on 2006-03-03 04:05:22
True. I do believe it is woman's choice to give birth or to have an abortion, although I don't think this is a decision that can or should be taken lightly ("Oops, I'm pregnant! No prob, I'll have it aborted. Guess what, I'm pregnant again. Oh, abortion is nothing, I'll abort another. And maybe third one comes free? Cheaper than contraceptives!")

The question is, is it a child's choice too?

For me, there is something deeply unsettling in a situation when a 13-year old (heck, there are fertile 11-year olds now!) can go to the clinic completely unassisted and have one abortion after another without her parents or in fact anyone knowing anything.
re: Teenage Abortion (karma: 3)
By reelcanadiangirlPremium member
On Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:43 PM
Those abuse cases some of you are babbling about how the child wouldn't be able to get parental consent. Heck if their homelife really is that dangerous, most likely their pregnancy will end in an early miscarriage anyway


So let's just have a law stating you need parental permission for abortions and screw the kids stuck in abusive stituations- cause, heck, they're just gonna get abused some more and miscarry, right? I'm sorry, but I just can't shrug those cases off with such a carefree atttitude. There are so many families that would not support their child getting an abortion- you can't just forget about those girls because they are in the minority. I would hate to live in a world where all minorities were shrugged off like this- it would be a scary sight.
re: Teenage Abortion
By balletstar05member has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Fri Mar 03, 2006 06:09 PM
hmm, I don't know of many states where you can get an abortion under the age of 18 without parental consent. AND they cost money. Where would a 13 year old get $300-$600 from? AND they need someone to drive them to the abortion clinic. LOL.

I don't know, maybe there are states out there that don't require parental consent. I know Nebraska used to be like that, but they've since changed. I agree that it is not a decision to be made lightly.......I really wish EVERYONE would have to go for intense counseling and be made aware of all options....I don't think that is in place right now.
re: Teenage Abortion (karma: 7)
By NadiaLadidamember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Fri Mar 03, 2006 06:33 PM
Edited by NadiaLadida (116697) on 2006-03-03 18:36:27
Edited by NadiaLadida (116697) on 2006-03-03 18:37:11 blegh
Those abuse cases some of you are babbling about how the child wouldn't be able to get parental consent. Heck if their homelife really is that dangerous, most likely their pregnancy will end in an early miscarriage anyway.


Thanks for those kind sensitive words, tumblebug. It's nice to know that 4 years of paid experience working with victims of abuse and sexual assault have resulted in me 'babbling' about on a website. Your comment was crass and an insult to every client I have personally counselled.

On one hand, I'm really happy for you, that you are so far removed from having any concept of the complexities of child abuse, on the other hand, I pity you your lack of empathy.

Oh, and by the way, in addition to my employment as a service coordinator to victims of abuse, I AM a mother of a daughter.
re: Teenage Abortion
By Emmymember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Fri Mar 03, 2006 07:10 PM
your not saving a 'baby' your saving a little pink splotch that bears little resemblance to a baby


Thank you for making my day. Not that that was funny, though- the fetus, although not a fully developed baby, is a living human being.
re: Teenage Abortion
By tumblebugPremium member
On Fri Mar 03, 2006 09:35 PM
Interesting how you highlight only part of that paragraph and leave out this:

Maybe there should be some kind of medical intervention plan for those cases in particular


Hmm, but that would just make it too difficult to attack my words now wouldn't it?

My post was mainly directed towards some of the teenagers on this board who think they should have the freedom of an 18 year old because they are in the typical adolescent rebellion stage. Common sense would tell anyone that.

Thanks for those kind sensitive words, tumblebug. It's nice to know that 4 years of paid experience working with victims of abuse and sexual assault have resulted in me 'babbling' about on a website. Your comment was crass and an insult to every client I have personally counselled.


There ya go once again acting in a defensive manner like my entire post was directed towards you and every single one of your clients bla bla bla. Grow up already. You are smarter than that.

So let's just have a law stating you need parental permission for abortions and screw the kids stuck in abusive stituations- cause, heck, they're just gonna get abused some more and miscarry, right? I'm sorry, but I just can't shrug those cases off with such a carefree atttitude. There are so many families that would not support their child getting an abortion- you can't just forget about those girls because they are in the minority. I would hate to live in a world where all minorities were shrugged off like this- it would be a scary sight.


*sigh* Once again, you so conviently left this statement out
Maybe there should be some kind of medical intervention plan for those cases in particular
.
re: Teenage Abortion (karma: 5)
By Liritmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Sat Mar 04, 2006 01:57 AM
If she'd "rather die than tell them" she should not have sex yet.

What a person should do and what one does are often very different.

If she's mature enough to have sex she's mature enough to talk to her parents about the consequences of having sex

In a perfect world, sure. But with a Bush in the White House, it's safe to say this world is... well... not perfect. Being free and confident in talking to your parents isn't something that necessarily comes with maturity. There are plenty of adults who have tense relationships with Mom and Dad.

and if we are talking about right what about parents' right to know that their potential grandchildren are being aborted?

And what right is that? Since when do grandparents get a say? And why should they?
re: Teenage Abortion (karma: 3)
By NadiaLadidamember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Sat Mar 04, 2006 06:17 AM
Edited by NadiaLadida (116697) on 2006-03-04 06:36:45 oopsie
I'm going to ignore the excessive 'grow up' comments and other random insults, considering the source, and go ahead and address this, since it seems to hold some importance for the poster:

Maybe there should be some kind of medical intervention plan for those cases in particular, but for the rest of us out there-parental consent should be required.


And how are a medical staff supposed to decide who does and who does not fall into the category of 'those cases in particular' which qualifies for such 'medical intervention'? The courts? A counsellor? Law enforcement?

Do you have any clue as to how difficult to prove cases of abuse? How difficult it is to get a woman with a mauled face an emergency protective order? How hard it is to remove children form the care of dangerous parents?

If we allowed teenage abortion on a case-by-case basis according to a certain criteria, it would be a logistic nightmare. Which is why it's the responsibility of the law to legislate in the interests of all - majority and minority.

That said, I hate the idea of a child having to go through an abortion without parental consent or support. I hate the idea of a child (or woman) having to go through an abortion - period. If my daughter got pregnant as a teen, I'd fully expect for her to feel that she could come to me with her crisis so we can work through it together as a family. I plan on cultivating an open trusting home environment.

But this isn't about my feelings. It's looking at the big picture, and realizing the laws responsibility to protect everyone's right to a safe and legal abortion.
re: Teenage Abortion (karma: 2)
By JoyNoellePremium member
On Sat Mar 04, 2006 08:52 AM
When a girl starts sex life as a teenager she should be aware that she may get pregnant
When I was a teenager, I was perfectly aware of that. And so was my daughter when she started having sex as a teen.
AND she'll have to face her parents about it. If she'd "rather die than tell them" she should not have sex yet.
You're just not getting it. You've obviously never been in or seen a truly oppressive, shame-based environment like my family. You know, I said, jokingly, in another thread somewhere (on girls pg-13 maybe), that my mother STILL doesn't know I've had sex and that she thinks my adult daughter was an immaculate conception. That sounds very funny and everything...but it really reflects the "we don't talk about things like that" attitude in my family. I'm not going to bother trying to convince you further, because I believe my prior posts have done a good job of getting across how IMPOSSIBLE it would've been for me to share something like this with my parents.
If she's mature enough to have sex she's mature enough to talk to her parents about the consequences of having sex
What does maturity have to do with anything? A girl can be plenty mature enough to have sex, protect herself, and be aware that protection can fail, WITHOUT having the ability to talk candidly with her parents about it. Like me. I was very mature for my age, even my mother acknowledges that now, but that didn't change the fact that the topic of sex was unequivocally taboo in my household.
and if we are talking about right what about parents' right to know that their potential grandchildren are being aborted?
Unfortunately, the law gives grandparents very few rights even when it comes to their LIVING grandchildren, so it's a given that they should have no say in what happens to their UNBORN grandchildren. If you've read my other posts you'll know that I personally would've been devastated if my daughter [hypothetically] had an abortion rather than let us raise her child. But other parents could react very differently, whether that be forcing her to have an abortion or forcing her to have the child against her will; throwing her out; physically punishing her; etc. Again, you're just not getting that not ALL families are warm, nurturing places where kids are free to discuss all topics with their parents.

Nadine is raising her daughter the way I raised mine, and I'm sure they'll end up with the same type of open, honest relationship that my daughter and I have. But not ALL parents are like Nadine or me...and it's a pity you don't understand that.
re: Teenage Abortion (karma: 3)
By kristie_bugmember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Sat Mar 04, 2006 03:28 PM
I had a post in girls and boys pg-13... I explained that my mom threw a temper tantrum over me taking her straightener, and she threw my vase into the wall, and left the glass on the floor. What exactly do you think she would do if I was pregnant if she acted so irrationally to me taking a straightener without her permission? I'd be better off running away. No I'm not immature and I dont believe you can make that judgement based on wether I can talk to my mom or not. I had a miscarriage, and she still doesnt know, and she would hurt me if she found out. I'm not saying this so you can say "Well if your parents will get mad, dont do it." I'm just proving that I couldnt tell my mom, and I shouldnt have to make my decisions based on how she acts.

*Kristie*
re: Teenage Abortion (karma: 4)
By imadanseurPremium member
On Sun Mar 05, 2006 09:38 PM
usually around age 12/13, where lots of kids start to shy away from their parents. Its perfectly normal and happens in some of the most supportive, loving environments. Wait until you have your own daughter, then come back and try this debate again.


Oh so only people that have teenage daughters can really debate this topic? Last I checked, your kids aren't teenagers. Let me tell you that parents establish boundaries of what is acceptable to talk about and what isn't LONG before the age of 12/13. My parents NEVER discussed sex or safe sex with me. It wasn't because I shyed away from them. They were supportive and loving, but had I gotten pregnant, it would have ruined my relationship with them forever. I would have had an abortion by any means necessary. There are many kids like this, and while it would be nice for kids to have supportive parents to go through this with, it is not the reality!!!

Those abuse cases some of you are babbling about how the child wouldn't be able to get parental consent. Heck if their homelife really is that dangerous, most likely their pregnancy will end in an early miscarriage anyway.


Hmmm well I would LOVE to know the statistics of this survey you have conducted because I can't find ANY information about the likelihood of victims of rape and incest having miscarriages.
re: Teenage Abortion (karma: 2)
By ShadowLunaCatPremium member
On Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:10 PM
Renae -- interesting that you should bring that up. And, according to my Women's Studies and History professor, records for that are hard to come by, because, as she put it, "women have only recently been comfortable about coming out and talking about these issues." And it was in the last 15-20 years that there was punishment for rape or sexual assault.

A friend of our family got pregnant in the 50's, and confided in a relative. This relative told her to say nothing at all about it, when she had the child, to send that child up for adoption. Her family only found out by going through the family records after this woman had died.

I was thinking about all these things, what are the statistics that can reinforce/back up the deaths from coat hanger abortions and the stats on miscarriages, rapes, abortions, etc. Maybe they're better kept now, due to computer automation. I'm sure, however, that many women didn't want their situations to be known and documented.

So, it's sort of a glass half full/glass half empty situation. And, you know, I'm kind of ambivalent about that whole thing.

Another factor that I'm sure has been brought up, but that we need to reconsider here, are women who are pregnant, and who take drugs. I couldn't get over an article I read about women who were pregnant, and who were on crack. And medical tests revealed that crack/along with other drugs/ can cross the placenta barrier.

I can't find the actual article, but this link speaks somewhat of the dangers...
www.girlhealth.org . . .

IN fact, the search that I did on this has quite a few other informative articles in it: www.google.com . . .


I have to reiterate, I'm not scared about the dangers of Roe vs. Wade for myself. I'm scared for the youth. I'm scared for children who have just begun to menstruate, who may find themselves pregnant, because their mothers either will not or cannot educate them about birth control. I was shocked by the number of teenage births when I was in my 20's. Now, I find, to my horror, that those pregnancies are by girls that are getting consistently younger and younger.

I would like for these CHILDREN to have and ENJOY their lives, before having to be saddled with the responsibility of being a mother when so young.

www.google.com . . .
-- The above link has a selection of good links on this issue.

The problem is that there are SO many studies out there, and apparently, there are multiple reasons: from absent fathers, "to unstable household arrangements..." www.womhealth.org.au . . .


This is a really potent social issue. I just wish there was more wiggle room for individual decision.



Shadow.
re: Teenage Abortion (karma: 1)
By SeniorLadyPremium member
On Mon Mar 06, 2006 08:39 AM
I'm pro-choice. I don't expect a 14-year-old who isn't even responsible enough to keep her legs shut in the first place to be able to carry a baby to term, give birth to it, and raise it for 18 years.
re: Teenage Abortion (karma: 1)
By Heartmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Mon Mar 06, 2006 04:05 PM
^ TEENAGERS CAN BE RESPONSIBLE AND HAVE SEX.

And yes, get pregnant. Condoms break, stuff happens.

GETTING PREGNANT DOES NOT MEAN A TEEN IS IRRESPONSIBLE.
HAVING AN ABORTION IS NOT IRRESPONSIBLE.

/disgusted.
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