^ I never said that having an abortion was irresponsible, nor did I say that all teenagers were irresponsible. I said that I don't expect a teenager who IS irresponsible to give birth to and subsquently raise a child for 18 years. I don't live under a rock; I know that teens have sex, and I know that teens have safe and responsible sex. I also know that there are teens who don't have responsible sex, which can lead to teen pregnancies. I'm pro-choice, and that's one of the reasons why.

I also know that there are teens who don't have responsible sex, which can lead to teen pregnancies.

Yes, but responsible sex can lead to pregnancy too! Bugs the heck out of me that nearly everyone here thinks you only get pregnant if you're having stupid, irresponsible sex. You can be on birth control - and it can fail. Even the best hormonal birth control methods have a failure rate. I don't think we should view getting pregnant as a sign that one is stupid.


Also, back to abortions - I've said it before and now I'll say it again. I think that all pro-lifers (especially in South Dakota!) should be forced to adopt before having their own kids. That way they can help raise all of the babies put up for adoption that otherwise would have been aborted!

Yes, but responsible sex can lead to pregnancy too! Bugs the heck out of me that nearly everyone here thinks you only get pregnant if you're having stupid, irresponsible sex. You can be on birth control - and it can fail. Even the best hormonal birth control methods have a failure rate. I don't think we should view getting pregnant as a sign that one is stupid.

I certainly don't. I've met several people who are opposed to abortion and whose beliefs are based on the fact that "babies shouldn't suffer because a person was irresponsible." Sometimes babies are born even when people were extremely irresponsible. I'm still pro-choice even if you aren't an unfit mother.

I'm pro-choice for the killing of children aged 0-5.
Why?

- A toddler/baby/preschooler is a huge strain on the supporters- food, diapers, education, time, money. The family may not be able to support the child, and so the poor thing may live in terrible home conditions. The child may be neglected,blamed for its own poor condition, or abused...it would totally be better off dead.

-The mother's school/job/career/life could be totally ruined by the child in her life. Not to mention the lasting bite marks and bad back from hauling car seats everywhere. It's her life, she should be able to do what she wants with it. Why should she have to give up all her time and her beauty sleep and her bodily comfort? This is a very personal decision.
Honestly, has history taught us nothing? If a woman truly does not want a child, she will do whatever she can to get rid of it, even if it means doing something illegal and extremley dangerous. I'm 100% pro choice. It's MY life, not the government's. I don't believe anyone has the right to tell me what I should be doing with my body or life. Killing a child is an enormous decision for anyone to have to make, and I believe it is every woman's right to make that descision on their own. Wether or not you believe it's the right descision doesn't matter. Stop trying to force your own personal beliefs on everyone else.


- We don't even know if little kids are human yet. I do not think small children are people but *potential* people. Some can't talk, they don't know how to eat by themselves, they'd die without the mother's care, they're tiny and hairless and strange-looking, they can't communicate with fellow children, at first they can't stand or even support their own necks. They could potentially turn into responsible, caring and productive citizens, but at this point they are not. So they're not even human yet!

- If we don't provide clinics for the killing of children aged 0-5, desperate mothers will have to go to extreme and dangerous measures (visiting non-certified axe-murderers, for example) to carry out the required task. Government money should go into making these clinics easy to access! And any teenager wishing to dispose of an unwanted child... they could be in a terrible home situation that abuses her and her child. Life would be so much better for her after a short and painless trip to the clinic!

- We set mousetraps, kill mosquitos, slaughter cattle, and perform euthanasia on puppies all the time. If we can do that to animals, we can do it to humans. Besides, kids are barely even humans.

-If you don't want to kill your child, don't. It's totally up to you. You may think that other people are killing "innocent lives", but it still happens, its what some people believe is right. If you dont like it, don't do it. And for crying out loud, let the people who are alright with it do it... If its legal and their not hurting you, leave it be. No one's going to notice a toddler who never existed. I mean, they haven't made anything of themselves yet. No one will ever miss the little bugger!

I'm pro-choice for the killing of children aged 0-5.

We don't even know if little kids are human yet.

they're tiny and hairless and strange-looking, they can't communicate with fellow children, at first they can't stand or even support their own necks. They could potentially turn into responsible, caring and productive citizens, but at this point they are not. So they're not even human yet!

- If we don't provide clinics for the killing of children aged 0-5, desperate mothers will have to go to extreme and dangerous measures (visiting non-certified axe-murderers, for example) to carry out the required task.

they haven't made anything of themselves yet. No one will ever miss the little bugger!

I just highlighted the lines I found particularly frightening. Though overall I would say I found the whole thing scary.

Okay. I am totally pro-choice... but this goes way, way, way beyond anything I support. Quite frankly it scares me. A kid is definitely human. I support a woman's decision to have an abortion, but if she has the child, why on earth should she kill it? If you are going to go through with having a baby, then give it up for adoption.

I'm thinking of the 5 year olds I teach dance. They certainly seem human to me.

I'm pro-choice for the killing of children aged 0-5.
Why?

Okay, when I started reading this post I thought it was either a joke or an attempt by an anti-choicer to mock pro-choice arguments. Then I realized it was neither. At least I don't THINK it's either of those. Assuming it was actually intended as it came out...I'm just appalled. And I'm definitely pro-choice. I can't even respond to some of it right now...

- We don't even know if little kids are human yet. I do not think small children are people but *potential* people.

Are you kidding? This is some of the most twisted logic I've ever seen. Of course they're people--SMALL people, but human nevertheless. They have the potential to grow and develop and achieve things, but they're already people.

Some can't talk, they don't know how to eat by themselves, they'd die without the mother's care

Yep, that's how the animal kingdom generally works...

I am pro-choice and I hate even debating this because it's been done a million times. You will never change my mind and I will never change yours if you are pro-life.

Let me get several things straight:
I am pro-life; I don't support the killing of children, unborn or otherwise. This post was an irony, but not completely a joke.
You said that you found it "scary". Exactly. What I feel when I hear about abortion is probably what you felt when you read that post. It is quite simply the cold-blooded killing of humans.
The scary part for me is that you failed to recognize that almost every bit of my "argument" was taken from this very thread. Go back through the above post and replace "child" with "fetus" and you have the general spiel given by pro-choice people.
You may say that I twist those arguments; no. I don't. I advance the age of the "object" in question 6 months. 4 months. 2 months. 24 hours.
24 hours is the difference for you between a human and a less-than-human disposable object!
¡§Of course they're people--SMALL people, but human nevertheless. They have the potential to grow and develop and achieve things, but they're already people.¡¨
^ That is exactly right. Except I extend that description to children of ALL ages, not just the ones I choose to give rights to because it¡¦s easier for me not to deal with the other ones.
A fetus has its own genetic code, is a separate entity from the mother „³ it is of the human species. How can you not agree with that? If it is not human, what is it? Mammal, bird, or reptile? And I suppose one would argue that the baby is ¡§part¡¨ of the mom, just a growth or appendage. This is fundamentally and scientifically incorrect; you really cannot twist biology to fit your own purposes.

^ Okay then: Thanks for presenting one of the most inane "pro-life" posts I've ever seen. All it accomplishes is to reinforce just how lacking logic is on the anti-choice side. Even attempting to draw parallels between a 5-year-old child and a 5-day-old zygote is ludicrous. By the way, you don't need to teach ME anything about biology.

And if you want to discuss the general topic of abortion--as opposed to this thread's topic--you should be doing it in a different thread, instead of hijacking this one.

Joy^... if I could give you all my Karma for the day, I would. Thank you, you said it for me PERFECLY!

I am pro-life; I don't support the killing of children, unborn or otherwise. This post was an irony

Wow, I'm usually quite good at catching sarcasm, but that post was just outrageous. I completely agree with Joy. You are trying to draw comparisons of things that aren't the same.

Looks to me like someone is in need of lessons on how to write effective satire.

/end hijack

Hijack: I walked past a Planned Parenthood today, on the way to he supermarket. The SECOND they see me, they start yelling "You still have options! Do you have a beating heart? That's what you're killing!" And then I yelled at them to stop lying. I love being an outspoken prochoicer...

You're lucky you have a Planned Parenthood that you can walk to. I dont know where the closest one is... probably 30-40 miles away in salt lake city. You wont understand half of what I'm saying because you dont see it. One of my best friends is mormon. There are two parents, and 5 kids. The dad only works one job, and went 6 months without a job. But yet they still go out and buy so much stuff they dont need. You know how they do it? They are on a welfare plan, and they get their food from a bishops warehouse store. They get all that for free, so they money they get from they fathers one and only job, they spend on ridiculous things- makeup, junkfood, paint to redo an room(when it is not needed), ect...- The mother just sleeps while her kids do the house work. All of it, including cooking. The oldest daughter- my best friend- takes care of her siblings better then the mother. The LDS religion, if I am correct, doesnt believe in birth control. I do not want it to come down to this. I dont want all you pro-lifers to take away abortion, cause eventually you will take away birth control. And the story above is the result of not taking birth control. Its not hurting you! If I have an abortion its my choice. It doesnt effect you what-so-ever, so I dont see why you should care so much as to what I do. Live your life, not mine, and dont make mine any harder to live with your beliefs. Life by your beliefs, and dont force others to live by them, too. If you dont like it, dont have an abortion. Maybe one day you'll understand what I'm saying, or see the effects of not having birth control or abortion.

*Kristie*

I am definately pro choice. I believe that only the pro choice movement has a truely positive outlook. It protects a womens right to make her own decisions about her own body, while supporting the fact that abortion is not carefree- it is serious and should never be undertaken lightly. Of course i, and other pro choice people do not believe that abortion is another form of birth control. Birth control should always be used if a women does not want to get pregnant, but unfortunately there are still unplanned pregnancys. Birth control does fail, 13 years olds do have sex without being informed about how to use birth control (i had my first sex ed lesson when i was 15- most of my school year had already had sex by then anyway) and women do get raped.

Making abortion illegal will not make all of this go away. Teens will still have sex, and still get pregnant. For some teens family circumstances means that they are unable to talk to their mum about what to do, and are unable to afford to look after a baby if they decided to keep it. But if abortion was illegal instead of having a relatively safe abortion, their only option would be to have an illegal, unsafe one, which could end up with the death of the mother. And believe me, people would take this risk, because this is what was going on before abortion was legal.

I believe South Dakota has recently passed a ban on abortion. So a 12 year old girl who gets knocked up by her own father will still be obliged to have that baby. Surely even the most unmovable pro lifer out there will understand that in circumstances like these an abortion is the best idea? Pro lifers claim that they have the childs best intrests in mind- imagine how horrible a child like that will feel when he or she finds out they are only alive because their mother was raped by their grandfather.

In my opinion the name 'pro life' could not be less apt. The anti abortion movement is fired up with loathing and anger. When i look into the eyes of those campagning outside of abortion clinics i do not see love of tiny unborn babies. I see hatred.

One final thought- i think we should all enjoy the irony that many a pro lifer supports the death penelty, and the fact that bush is bombing children in the middle east.

teenage abortion is not ok! Its a baby! You wouldn't like it if your mom took you out of her before you were even born! It's murder! If you girls go and get pregnant with their boyfriends then thats their fault, they decicded to have sex! If they didn't want a baby, they shouldn't have had sex. That's my opinion i mean even though you use condoms, they're not that reliable all the time thats my opinion. if you get pregnant, you need to deal with it and go through the birth.

^ Looks like it's time to drag out that dead horse...again...

Someone, please answer me this question. How is deciding to get an abortion not considered 'dealing with it'.

Please, ive been dieing to know the answer to this question.

Oh and "prfctdncr" (by the way, eloquent spelling.) You win the noob award. Please read the ENTIRE debate before posting that dribble.

Oh and "prfctdncr" (by the way, eloquent spelling.) You win the noob award. Please read the ENTIRE debate before posting that dribble.

Amen.

Nobody likes dead-horse beaters. Go read the debate, and for that matter all the others on this topic, because every single thing you said has been brought up and countered 50 billion times already.

Oh and "prfctdncr" (by the way, eloquent spelling.) You win the noob award. Please read the ENTIRE debate before posting that dribble.

Interesting, I was going to giver her the "most prolific use of exclamation points to prove an inane, repetitive point" award.

When I was 16, I started having (safe) sex. When my mother found out she flipped her wig-- did that stop me from having sex? No siree. If I had gotten pregnant? I would have had an abortion. Teenage girls, often times, do NOT have supportive parents, even when they're having responsible, monogamous, safe sex. And if a "good girl" messes up? What then? Suicide? Runaways? Backyard abortions? Take your moral high ground elsewhere, I'm more concerned for these teenagers than an ideal.

"You wouldn't like it if your mom took you out of her before you were even born! It's murder!"

Dude I was so going to give you karma for making me laugh so hard, but then I didnt want you to think you made a serious, valid point.

Wow it must be hard for you to get out of bed in the morning.

If you shouldn't have sex if you don't want a baby, then what happens if you're married but dead set against children? Heck, what if you're not married, but you know you never, ever want children? Since your argument is that you shouldn't have even safe sex unless you're ready to have a baby, since even condoms aren't that reliable, in your expert opinion. Should that person plan on dying a virgin? Should they become nuns and monks and take a vow of chastity? What a ridicculous argument. Honestly, if you're going to make an arguement for anything, you'd better make sure it's logical first.

P.S.- condoms are 98% effective, provided they are used correctly. So while they certainly aren't perfect, and no method of birth control is 100% effective other than abstinence, 98% is pretty darn close.

"teenage abortion is not ok!"- your opinion, not mine, dont make it sound like it is hard core fact.

"Its a baby!"- In your eyes, not everyone elses. Some might argue that if a baby can not live on its own. Right or wrong its no better then your arguement

"You wouldn't like it if your mom took you out of her before you were even born!"-Um... How would you know? Even if you believe in an afterlife I seriously doubt God will be sitting there at the pearly gates to tell you why you are there.

"It's murder!"- Once again, your opinion. Dont you dare make it sound like a fact or things might get ugly.

"If you girls go and get pregnant with their boyfriends then thats their fault, they decicded to have sex!"- Yeah... what about the rape victims?

"If they didn't want a baby, they shouldn't have had sex."- Yeah I'm sure those rapist are doing it all for the cute, warm, gassy babies.

"That's my opinion i mean even though you use condoms, they're not that reliable all the time thats my opinion."- You dont have to state "That's my opinion"... You're saying it, so obviously, unless otherwise specified, we know its your opinion. And you really dont need to say it twice in one sentence. Condoms are 98% effective if used properly, and can lose 12-14% effeciency if use improperly. Which is still better then nothing, but you make it sound a lot worse then that.

"if you get pregnant, you need to deal with it and go through the birth." As someone said, abortion is a way with dealing with it. Having sex is not like signing a contract saying that "I ____ will carry this child(or two, or three) for nine months, even if I die or if the baby is the product of rape."

If you're going to argue, back it up with something...

*Kristie*

hey

i think it depens on the individuals predicament .

Katy x

Um, dance_child?

On one hand you're berating her for making her opinions look like fact, and on the other you're berating her for telling us it's her opinion. Which is it? I know the post was inane but in my opinion it didn't even warrant a response - what I don't get is why you picked on her for everything, to the point of contradicting yourself.

I'm pro-choice but probably wouldn't have one myself. Mrs Van Persie in Holland wants to have an abortion? Doesn't affect me. 13 year old Miss Perez in Spain wants to have an abortion? Doesn't affect me. My sister wants to have an abortion? Still doesn't affect me. Everyone go about your business as you please. Excuse me for saying what everyone else has said but sometimes you just can't say it loud enough for the interfering minority.

Louise