While I agree with your post, that you can do that - soliciting students, calling them, etc.
I think it is ethically wrong.
I personally don't want to get my business that way.
Now, different story if students seek you out or if you do a direct mailing to a certain zip code, but to overtly seek them out knowing they go to another dance school - IMO - tacky!

I think many of you are misinterpreting the laws. My father is an atorney and the state in which we live a contract is a contract. If you sign one it holds up. They may throw out the amount or miles in the non-compete but big businesses do it all the time. So just because someone told you that they don't hold up it is not true what so ever. There are circumstances that can make them work.

I however, do not require one. Just a non-solicitation. i have a teacher who teaches for me and someone down the street and I have no issue with it. Non-solicitation means she/he can not contact my students directly by mail or phone by obtaining thier numbers, addresses, email addresses etc. Should they seek her out there is really nothing I can do. However, the new owner can do the right thing and turn them away. That is what I would do . I would never take a student from another teacher who I had taught for. It is wrong, and unethical.

Touche ! And well said, with a bit of humor I might add. Isn't capitalism and free-will wonderful, ya gotta love the law.

I am glad to be reading this thread right now because I am on the opposite side of the fence of this issue- I am planning to open a studio about 25 miles from where I teach now- there are students who will want to come to me and would travel the 10 miles to my studio. I have a few people who are willing to give me the informations I need to mail my flyers to some of my former students. I figured that this was wrong- but if they are giving it to me and I am not taking it from the studio myself- it is a fine line- I am in a unique situation becaue the studio I work for changed hands this year and the new oweres are literally running it into the ground- they have already lost 50 students due to their lack of professionalism.... I don't feel any loyalty to them since they are new employers to me this year- I am very conflicted about this whole situation- I should let you all know that my pln to open a studio has nothing to do with them- I just feel that it is time for me to do something for myself and my family to make a better living and be my own boss.

any advice?

It depends what state you're in. In WI, covenant not to compete clauses DO hold up in court and have already been tested and won. Reasonable as determined by the courts in our state "while working & for 3 years after for a 20 mile radius". Contact a lawyer & get the wording right. You also can put in a confidentiality agreement in there which states that they will not take curriculum home or take personal contact information of your students outside the studio. That way they can't call everyone up to say that they are opening a new place, or solicit your clients directly.

The studio I worked for always had us sign a contract that included a non-compete and non-solicitation clause. From what a few of my lawyer friends told me is that the terms have to reasonable. Even if you agree and sign it, the terms cannot be much more than 5 miles or so and a year or two. Again, it all depends on where you live and really it's ultimately the judge's decision if it is taken to court.

Our small studio was in a neighboring town and our artistic director was actually teaching at another studio too, in order to supplement her income. That larger studio had a new owner (non-dancer)and the parents and students were very unhappy. A group of parents approached us about opening a studio in this same city. That had been a long-term goal and plan but when 100 people come to you, asking you to do this, and them searching the area for a good space, one has to take the opportunity.

Additionally, several of our parents are attorneys and one of them is actually our landlord. He specifically asked if our director had signed a non-compete clause at her part-time employer. No, she had not, and it was a good thing. It is enforcible in our state.

Best to ask an attorney in your state before making any decisions. Spend a bit of money and let the knowledgable ones write up a binding contract for you if that's what you need.

And, yes, one really does reap what she sows. The not-nice studio owner appears to be struggling but she did it to herself. Prayerfully, we will not go the same route as she.

this is all great information - i really appreciate any feedback on this unique situation. i have been teaching for a studio for 2 recital years now and many of the parents, teachers, and myself have had enough... it's a one-woman show pretty much (our director/owner) - it's completly unorganized, there are no financial records for payments, parents feel cheated when they're asked to pay more for fees/costumes/etc because they usually have no idea what their money is going towards, we as instructors usually have to "bail out" our director in ordering costumes last minute and organizing and directing the recital ourselves (of which we aren't paid to be doing), we're often asked to inform parents of the extra fees which leads to very upset parents.... Other than that, there are SEVERAL other major issues that i have (and other people) with the way she seems to be running her own business into the ground - such as the fact that there is never anyone to answer questions, rehersal times are made up on the spot and passed by word of mouth in which some parents/teachers never know about and miss, ...etc... it's just bad business and it's getting worse each year. so, after the catastrophic recital this past week, two other instructors and myself (out of 5 instructors total) have decided to start planning our futures as teachers and studio owners. it's not because we want to undermine her business and "steal" her thunder, it's because we want to see the children we've begun to teach thrive and not be pulled out by their parents because someone can't keep up with due tuition & fees. the studio we've taught at is the only one in our small town, it's only got about 120 students tops. on top of that, last year after recital, she offered to sell her studio to who will now become my partner and flipped out when she wanted to discuss the contracts details. then, she offered it to me before christmas this year ('06), i did some reviewing myself and with some businessmen i know, so when contract day came around for us to sign, she backed out again. now that you have an idea of some of our dilema, at the beginning of last year (in august 2005) we all signed this "no compete clause" in our contracts that essentially stated that we were not to teach at any other studios or open another studio within a 30 mile radius of hers for at least 12 months after finishing our term... would that still hold up this year, even though the new instructors this year weren't made to sign it and since it was for the '05-'06 year? i believe that most of the students from this year are not going to return to her studio for next year and if myself and my partner do not open up our own studio within a certain distance they will all go somewhere else anyway. we have had several parents beg us to open for next year and they've even offered to help us; they trust that we will be fair, trustworthy, organized, respectful and worth thier time & money. i have faith that we will be able to cater to their needs better than their current situation, i just worry that the contracts we signed will make the situation stickier. and i still feel that out of respect, we may need to discuss our concerns with our previous director and try to come to an arrangement (if not an agreement.)

Gosh, if you were in a larger town, I'd think you were my neighbor. Very similar situation at our director's former studio and it was worse this year.

I would recommend a consult with an attorney. Usually, a first consult is free so you can lay the facts on the line and see where you stand.

Good luck!

FosseDad is right a non compete varies state to state. In Colorado a non compete contract is null and void. Why? Unless you are management, have over $5000 in paid training paid by your employer or own a part of the business, making an employee sign this agreement is considered intimidation. In fact your employee can actually sue you for making you sign it. This is what the law states not me. I am an owner and have been employed by many studios in several states. So I have been on both sides and clearly understand why you need to protect yourself. If you can't give me full time hours (meaning 20-25 hours a week) to make an honest living then you can't tell me where to teach. As for my staff...I allow them to teach eslewhere if I cannot fill their schedule. However, I do make it clear they cannot choreograph and teach our Company Dancers along with another studio's company dancers anywhere. That is a conflict of interest if they were to compete against eacheother. I would trust they would not do it. That is something hard to hide.

It is sad for teachers to solicit to previous studios they have worked for. I have been on both sides of the fence and have NEVER solicited to previous students of mine. I kept my future plans and where I would be teaching next extremely quiet. This is out of respect to the owner. However, I have worked for owners who do not treat their employees with respect and dignity. But I also feel a parent and student will go where they see is fit for them. Students will come and go but every studio has it's loyal cliental. Even the studio I read earlier who went from 600 to 160...kind of like you know who your friends are in the end.

Enough said about non compete contracts. I had to say my 2 cents as I have run in to this situation before and had to get a lawyer to find out the law in our state.

I am just playing devil's advocate here, don't really have an opinion one way or another. But I am wondering, if a deli or grocery store required their cashiers to sign a non compete or something similiar, who would work for them? Who would take a job knowing that for a certain amount or time or in a certain proximity, they could not work for another grocery store?
I don't think it would hold up and I doubt anyone would sign it. When you hire a new teacher, they dont know if they will like you, or you will like them , or if the work relationship would work out so why would they sign something on day one that would limit their future employment rights?

You also have to consider if you are in a "right to work" state. I'm in Texas, and non-compete contracts aren't worth the paper they are written on. Sure you can have one and sign one, but if they/you don't want to adhere to it, they/you don't have to. You can take them to court, but all you will succeed in doing is costing yourself and possibly them money. It is considered a civil matter, and usually done in small claims court, which doesn't require a lawyer.

Now a non-solicitation agreement is a bit different. Sure they can open 2 blocks from you (which is a really stupid thing to do because they are cutting off their nose to spite their face, as then they are then going to be fishing for clients in the same pool as you, thus fewer fish for all. Definitely smarter to find an untapped pool to fish from) BUT, they cannot directly solicit verbally or written to your clients. They can solicit to the general public of your area via TV, Newspaper or direct mail coupons/postcards with them reading "to the occupent of..." or "Current Resident". But if they steal your client mailing list, and send an ad or invitation to your client directly then you have a case against them that you more than likely will win if you can prove monetary damages (ie: loss of clientel due to the direct solicitation)

starbital wrote:

, at the beginning of last year (in august 2005) we all signed this "no compete clause" in our contracts that essentially stated that we were not to teach at any other studios or open another studio within a 30 mile radius of hers for at least 12 months after finishing our term... would that still hold up this year, even though the new instructors this year weren't made to sign it and since it was for the '05-'06 year?

If you didn't sign a new contract for 06-07 did your previous contract have an end date for the contract? Some states require that each contract have a beginning and end date to be valid. Some states consider a contract open ended if no end date is implied other than the date you leave employment. Also, were you contract labor (you paid your own taxes) or were you and actual employee with fed/state/soc.sec. taken out? If you were contract labor generally the contract must have a set start and end date, with a clause that states either party can end the contract with ample written notice (usually 30 days).

If your 05-06 contract did infact have an end date and you didn't sign one for 06-07 then you aren't bound to the non-compete. But even if you think this person is a irresponsible flake it is still unethical for you to directly solicit her clients. And if she plans to stay open you would be hurting yourself by opening too close to her. Your best bet would be to go at least 12-15 miles in a direction that has no other studios in that 12 to 15 mile radius. Send advertising using a direct mail coupon company (such as Valpak) to send ads to the zip codes that the studio you worked for and the zip code your new studio (if different) is in. If your former students want to come to you they will. You aren't so far away that they won't come and you didn't directly solicit them, they came of their own free will.

basically, we were paid under the table. she promised us she'd give us 1099's for us to claim, but didn't bring it back up until like april 10th... most of us had already figured she wasn't going to get us the forms again and went ahead with our taxes. we've found a wonderful brand new building within our budget and about 15 miles away in an area that is far enough away to attract new clients and close enough for those that still want to take with us. honestly it's a pretty nice arrangement for both of our studios. we're referring all clogging clients to her, because we're not offering that- so it's not like we're trying to take her clients. it's just time for us to start something for ourselves. since my last post, we've had a meeting with her and we all seem to be on better terms. thanks for the advice. there's still no telling with this situation wht will happen when classes start back.

Starbital, It sounds as if you are planning on telling your current students that you are opening your own studio. That could backfire & bite you in the booty if you do so.

I still advise for you to do blanket advertising, rather than directly solicit your current students. If they aren't happy there they will seek dance training elsewhere. If you have your advertising available in the area they will find you and come to you. Then your former SO cannot accuse you of directly soliciting her clients.

Okay, I have read every single one of these posts on this thread to hear all sides...and I am going to open my own studio here soon and here is my deal and you can tell me whats right and wrong in my situation.

First, I used to teach at 4 studios at once for 2 years, and then settled on one who gave me the most hours and now I run most of the company teams. Several students from the other 3 studios saught me out and have remained with me at this studio (lets just say like atleast 15 students.) Now since then, I have been with this studio for 7 1/2 years and so I know I have the rights to the students who followed me. I would never steal any numbers or contact info to steal this SO's students but I know word of mouth will get out and the students who would "quit if i left anyways" will look for my studio and go.

In one persons postings , they suggested that if the dancer/parent saught a person out, they should turn them away??? Is that something I should feel obligated to do and why?

Now I am opening mine 10-15 miles away and there is actually another dance studio right down the street from where I am going to open it and so that is way more of a competitor than my soon to be previous SO but we live in a huge town with about 50 dance studios, depends on the area but some are within blocks of each other....but my point is, I feel students and parents are going to go where they are happy. And if they have been with me at my So's place for 8 years and I leave, Do I have the right to tell them I am leaving to open my own studio? At the end of this year, I am going to tell everyone I am not coming back next year (keep in mind here I teach almost 20 classes a week, I am the main teacher out of 7 teachers and I run 3 of the company teams) I am a BIG part of this studio, if I leave to open my own and there are alot of upset parents and dancers, do I have any right to say that I am opening my own place, or what do I say when I leave? Do i have the right ot give them MY phone number and telling them to call me if they want lessons or anything like that? I do not want to hurt my SO and I know she will be fine when I leave, we have a huge city so there are enough dancers for everyone and I know I am going to build my own clientel based on the area I am doing it in is growing rapidly and also my reputation is very strong. I dont and will not contact anyone or tell people to follow me, with the exceptions of the ones who followed me to this studio, but as for the other kids I have taught for 8 years? Whats right and wrong? And also, what to i tell people when I am leaving, whats right and wrong there?

I am kind hearted person and I dont want to do the wrong thing here. I am not looking out for just me. I dont want to ruin friendships or have people or my SO hate me but I dont want to leave behind someone who is going to quit if i leave anyways. I am sure many of us teachers have heard "We are so sick of this or that and the ONLY reason we stay here is because of you" So what do you do with "these" people? AAny advice would help as I know eevryones situation is different but I am on the other side of this and need to know how to handle it professional and personally.

And P.S. I didnt sign a "non compete contract" EVER

Corporations use non-compete contracts for their higher level employees. My father was in management and had one. They don't usually do them for office staff and other loewr level employees. A manager could potentially take clients if they left the business to start their own; lower staff probably wouldn't. A teacher is like management, they have constant contact with your clients and relationships with them. A non-compete contract is not a bad idea as long as it is reasonable. But you don't need to have assistants sign one.

If you are in a small town with 2 or 3 studios you NEED a non-compete contract of some kind. In a larger city it is harder, especially if you cannot keep a teacher busy. It would not be unreasonalbe to give a radius in which they may not teach, say 15 miles from you. That would still give them options of other places for employment. Or say that they must have approval, then you can sa no if they want to go to work for your biggest competitor.

You should ALWAYS consult a lawyer if you are considering having employees sign a contract. I have taken business law, legal liabilities, and a few other law classes and I know enough to know when I need a lawyer. Taking a business law class or a contracts class helps you understand your needs as a business but does not qualify you to do your own legal work. If their are states that don't hold up the non-compete clauses you need a lawyer who will tell you what you can do instead. There will always be an option.

Corporations use non-compete contracts for their higher level employees. My father was in management and had one. They don't usually do them for office staff and other loewr level employees. A manager could potentially take clients if they left the business to start their own; lower staff probably wouldn't. A teacher is like management, they have constant contact with your clients and relationships with them. A non-compete contract is not a bad idea as long as it is reasonable. But you don't need to have assistants sign one.

If you are in a small town with 2 or 3 studios you NEED a non-compete contract of some kind. In a larger city it is harder, especially if you cannot keep a teacher busy. It would not be unreasonalbe to give a radius in which they may not teach, say 15 miles from you. That would still give them options of other places for employment. Or say that they must have approval, then you can sa no if they want to go to work for your biggest competitor.

You should ALWAYS consult a lawyer if you are considering having employees sign a contract. I have taken business law, legal liabilities, and a few other law classes and I know enough to know when I need a lawyer. Taking a business law class or a contracts class helps you understand your needs as a business but does not qualify you to do your own legal work. If their are states that don't hold up the non-compete clauses you need a lawyer who will tell you what you can do instead. There will always be an option.

I have a teacher that just went into buisness with her friend and is opening a studio. There is nothing you can do to avoid them taking your students. Lucky for me, she opened up about 1/2 hour from my studio, so I did not have to worry. But, she was a very liked teacher and I am sure students would of followed her. I have no hard feelings and wish all new studio owners success. If we could only work together, but this is not how it works. If your studio and teachers on staff are good, people won't leave. It is that simple. If we keep our customers happy, than no one should be a threat.
I did help her out and offer my advise to her when she asked.
I was very worried that she would take some of my advanced students and if that happend, I am sure it would have been a HUGE problem, but everyone came back to me this year and we are all happy! (For now) She still teaches for me 1 day a week and is a loved teacher and employee. It will always be in the back of my mind and I think there is a little bit of a trust issue now. I don't feel as comfortable talking about the students and buisness with her now. But, when it comes to right and wrong, it is just WRONG to take students. We all know this, but it will happen. This is my first time having to deal with this and I am thinking about a contract for all new hires.

Yes, the non-compete agreement really only holds water if you can prove that you are able to offer the employee full-time work (meaning 40-hours or more a week) And I really don't know of a dance teacher who would work 40 hours per week without going postal at some point. You'd burn out the employee with that class load.

Non-compete is really a good faith moral obligation and ethical choice, not so much a legality.

Sad, but true! The other side of the coin is to build your school around great teachers (notics that's plural!) not just all of your eggs in one basket with 1 great teacher. This will decrease temptation for students to leave if one teacher walks.

We just went through an ordeal dealing with this exact subject. My Hip Hop Teacher of three years (a dear friend of mine) just decided one day to quit and follow her own dream of opening a studio. Before she let on to this she took our whole client information database with her as well as the format of our dance studio. I was shocked and appalled to find she started her own studio that happened to have the same layout of schedule, same class names, and same basic ideas as my studio had, plus she opened it right down the street! Granted she does not have enough professional dance experience to make a whole studio run, but she advertised to and took over half of my students. I went straight to a lawyer which let me know that i could sue even without a non compete clause because she took the studios client list without permission. So my advise would be talk to a lawyer ASAP. to avoid this nightmare.

KDancer-Same thing happened to me last season. I decided that "I" am going to change my format somewhat as well as the names of classes, etc even though it took at least 15 years to eveything worded exactly right. Oh well, She is a copy cat and always has been.

FOR WHAT it is worth...you will continue to have ideas and flourish. Good luck !

^Of course the ideas will keep coming and my studio will flourish as it has already rebounded nicely in numbers. I am very proud of that. I simply think that if a person opens a business it should be done in a professional and ethical manner. At least Burger King doesn't call their whopper sandwich a big mac!! At least come up with your own titles for classes, events, etc.

I got my standard form from the Rhee Gold conference. I was able to get a sense of what to have on the form, and added to it. I had a really bad experience 5 years ago, an instructor took some of my students (thank goodness not as many as she planned) to a new studio that made her Asst. Director. This past year this same person took students to form her own studio!! Make sure you have your instructors sign this! You might not be as lucky as I was!