I wanted to know how you all feel about there being no NBTA rule that says....if you win M. Majorette of your state that you cannot then compete for the same regional title?
I personally think it is very bad sportmanship to take another spot in advanced or try to win both titles ....then someone else does not get a spot at Nationals in the pageant.
I know at our Regionals this year we had at least one girl come and try to win pageant after she had already won the pageant in her state at M. Majorette.
I am interested in knowing how others feel about this issue and if they believe it should be a NBTA rule that once you win one (or are in the top 3 advanced) that you can not enter the pageant in the other/next (which ever comes first in your state, Reg. or M. Majorette)?

I do not think it is appropriate for a girl that has won her state contest to compete in the regional contest. Give another girl a chance to win the title. You can only do the pageant twice so does that count as the 2nd win?

The advanced royalty should be ok to compete since they did not win the title.

That is my opinion ~

I firmly believe that once a twirler wins one title (state maj. or regional), she should not be eligible to win the other. The goal is to qualify for the pageant at AYOP, right? Once a twirler qualifies, no matter state/regional, then that's it. Let another twirler have a shot at earning a spot at AYOP. IMO, royalty in all pageants should be able to compete as many times as they wish.

First, I will tell you that I believe you should not re-enter. However, I will now play devil's advocate:

If your goal is to win the ultimate title of Miss Majorette of America in your division, there are some who would say that it would be best to eliminate your competition. If you re-enter and win or even place top 3, you are eliminating other twirlers that would eventually go against you in July.

Good sportsmanship? I don't think so.

Mean spirited? I think so.

Good strategy- maybe if on Survivor and tons of money on the line.

Do people do it? Sure do!

This question poses an interesting aspect on the term "sportsmanship".
Ultimatley, is it not the goal of atheletes to compete? Although it may be considered "greedy" to compete again once you have already qualified, certainly strategic, but is it exhibiting poor sportmanship? I can see valid arguements for both sides of this controversy. I look forward to comments from those opposing this posting.

DivaMom1- I see your point about sportsmanship....it could be consider positive and/or negative depending on what your personal thoughts/belief is on the subject!

Hmmm very interesting that this is being posted...almost like you are reading my mind.

I have seen it happen more than I would like....It has happen to my students.
There are some who look at it like its another chance to prepare for AYOP(practice makes perfect) BUT
I think many more are just greedy and want to win another title.

I've had many converstations with other coaches and judges about this and it seems like a lot of people feel the same way I do. But Im sure there are others out there that don't...I'd love to hear from them.

Side Note....
I actually have a rule at my studio that says
#1 If you aren't going to AYOP you can't enter into Miss Maj or the Beg/Int pageants. We are not title hogs and there is no need to win the title if you arent' going to represent it at Nationals.
#2 If you win or place top 3 in Adv MM then you don't enter it again at Reg's...we let others qualify.
I have both of these rules b/c I want my kids to only enter MM and pageants if they are serious about going to AYOP and I also want all my kids to get the chance to qualify. AND I don't promote titles, titles, titles.....I am all for having fun and being friendly competitors.
IMO there is nothing friendly about racking up yet another title and not supporting the other twirlers from your area.

Now will NBTA make a rule about this...doubt it.

IMO there are several things that need to be updated and brought up to speed in NBTA but thats another post entirely.
Sorry to rant...but this is a great post!

I appreciate hearing both sides of this issue. My daughter won her pageant at Regionals and she won't be going to our M. Majorette.There are other girls in our state the deserve to have a chance at a spot for Nationals. I believe there are many life long lessons to learn through baton twirling other then just learning how to twirl a baton. It is the formost reason we continue to spend all of the time and money it takes to keep going. This has turned out to be a very expensive sport!

As far as doing it to be stratigic.I think it is better to have the great competition.... then win because the other girls weren't able to compete because you "knocked" them out of a spot. I feel it is much better to truely earn the win. When you have to "earn" a win it means much more.
That is one of the life lessons you learn..."nothing comes easy".....among others that come from winning when there is good competition.
I really want my daughter to focus on doing her personal best...and have some fun. Not focus on knocking out her competition so it makes it easier for her to win a title.
Just my 2 cents!!

What a great topic! I think if an athlete has already qualified for AYOP at State, then she should let someone else represent Region. If she's using region as a "warm-up" for AYOP, then go for score-sheet only. It may not be such a problem for Beg/Int. because any win would count toward advancement, but advanced can win all they want. I saw a bio for a twirler once that touted her as MM of her state for 12 years (one would assume advanced but you never know) and MM of her region for another huge number of years. I understand that you have to compete to qualify, but think of all those years when nobody else got to have either title. On the other hand, if someone else would have been better, they could have won.

Our state and regional contests are one week apart, so the deadline for region has already past before you know if you qualified at state or not. Then you end up entering both just in case. I don't know if you could get a refund if you withdrew from the regional, that might make a difference.

As far as NBTA updating the rules, writing the rules and enforcing the rules are very different things. Just look at the MM titles post that's getting a lot of buzz, not all of the contest directors aren't enforcing that rule.

I know from experience that you usually will not get a refund of an entry after the deadline has past. I can understand why this is as well, so no problem there. However, as far as being able to compete in the next one I think that really depends on your area that you twirl in. Is one pageant easier to qualify in? If your easier to qualify is first I think you should be able to do the harder one. If the harder to qualify is first and then you go on for the easy title - then I think that is wrong. I mean obviously everyone is trying to qualify. At the same time I am sure that you need to travel for 1 if not both of the contests and how often do you get to see what the others are really doing. So I can see both sides of the story here so I think you have to look at each case individually. I know we had several people do both this year and I don't think that any of the winners from the 1st requalified in the 2nd so that can happen!

My daughter is in this situation now. Before our State miss Maj. her two coaches and I decided she needs to do both Miss Maj. for experience. She did qualify as royality in our state Our region is extreamly tough and I would be surprised if she took one of the top spots. She is the bottom of the age division, She only has competed in one nbta Miss maj contest (any level) She has had only 2 interviews ever.
I have been watching this debate closely because it effects her. After read many opinions. I think it is ok for Royalty to recompete. It makes for a better competition and that is why we do this. I have been to regionals where it is easy (2 or 3 in each group)to qualify because everyone already has done so and didn't enter. Way back only 1st from State and regionals were allowed to compete in Miss Maj. of America. It was a real honor to be able to enter. So many feel they should have an easy road now days. On the other hand I think if you do win your state miss maj. it could be considered greedy especially if you are a top contender at AYOP.
When you think about other sports athletes don't say I won't enter someone else can win.

No you should not compete twice.

This has always been instilled in us that you never take away the possibility of another girl winning a title if you have already won one. My daughter did win the title for the first competition that was scheduled and we had in fact paid for the other pageant and we did not receive a refund, that's okay it was our insurance and we realized that it was a possibility. However, some places will credit that money towards next years events. I think this is a good idea. However, she would never have even thought to compete in that pageant after winning one title. Do parents let their children do this? We did however do the Regional events since this had no bearing on the Miss Majorette outcome and we went to cheer on the other competitors in her division, they are still all of her friends and she still wanted to see how it turned out. In the end, there will always be better twirlers on any given day on any given contest, as long as you do your best at AYOP it's all in the hands of the judges anyway, and even then there are times when it is questionable as in any subjective sport. These are all of life's lessons, and hopefully we have the strongest daughters out there to tackle life, that is what is most important!!!!!

I agree with atwirler. Here's how I view it.

Not everyone has a goal of going to Nationals, but why should they feel they are not welcome to compete at a state or regional level? There might be reasons we don't know about preventing them from attending a week-long event that could be far away from their home. It's unfair to judge someone (negatively) of 'taking away' a spot from someone else unless you actually hear THEM say that they are purposely entering to win and take the spot away from someone else. (I bet that's a rare case when you've personally heard someone state it.)

Since the beginner and intermediate pageants allow the next person in line to enter as the representative, the spot is not 'lost.' And, couldn't you say that the 2nd place winner has a more realistic idea of how much she has to work to do well at the national level, if she was not the 1st place winner locally? If she didn't have the 1st place contestant to compete against, she might think she's in good shape. Just a thought. Also, for the beginner and intermediate, it seems that the 2 win max rule probably made the biggest impact as someone is unlikely to try to win twice in one year since they can only be the rep at nationals the one time.

As far as the advanced division, with 3 reps and no ability to pass the spots down after 3rd place....think of the old rule that only allowed one rep for advanced. Haven't we already addressed the problem of one person winning twice by the fact that up to 3 can go from each state and up to 3 from each region (plus, the regions are smaller than they were -- there are more of them -- so again, more spots are available across the country).

I think the idea of wanting more competition experience is valid today more than ever. In many areas of the country it seems as though there just aren't very many contests. If you find one a month that is within driving distance, that's a lot. It used to be that you could find AT LEAST ONE EVERY WEEKEND that was within driving distance, from maybe October through May. It also seems like a lot of state and regional contests have limited open events so to not enter an event means maybe going 2 months without a contest.

Instead of feeling this negativity towards other people, teach lessons to your own children/students. Not lessons about how others are robbing people of spots, but about how not twirling at the 2nd contest can be a plus for another twirler. The other lesson is that while we try to protect our children and give them the best experiences possible, it is an unrealistic view of the world to let them think that everyone gets a chance to win once. If they want to be a representative at nationals, then they need to put in hard work over time to achieve that goal. Isn't that the take-away?

For those of you who believe a twirler should only qualify at one event in a year....who ALSO believe that baton twirling is a sport, please read the following sports story:
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Say all you want about the Giants' pass rush and the miraculous connection between Eli Manning and David Tyree. We say the key to the Giants' Super Bowl upset of the previously perfect Patriots was the Giants' approach to their regular season finale against New England.

With playoff positions set, the Giants had little to gain by going all out against the Patriots in week 17. Tempted to rest players and protect them from injury, instead the Giants Honored the Game, gave their best effort and thrilled the nation by pushing the Patriots to their limits.

The Giants' decision to Honor the Game let players on both teams know that the Giants planned to meet the Patriots in the Super Bowl. The confidence and commitment entailed in Honoring the Game fueled the Giants' unlikely playoff run and eventual Super Bowl championship.

end
----

Granted this is professional sports, however, it might be even more telling that the Giants put forth their best effort when it didn't matter, in spite of risking injury (and lots of money) for the game that really did matter. By asking our twirlers to step aside and let someone else win, who are you really doing a favor to? Not anyone. If a twirler wins 1st in an event that didn't have ALL the competitors present, is that really rewarding? Maybe for 0-6 and 7-9, but once they are older, they know what's really going on and will likely recognize that they won but not against the best their area has to offer.

This post is not asking twirlers to display good sportsmanship, but rather asking them to essentially throw the game! Isn't that illegal...what about that Black Sox b-ball team? or the recent debate about the 1918 Cubs throwing the World Series?

So let's be a real sport and Honor the Game of Baton Twirling.

For those who don't enter the 2nd Pageant/Miss Majorette, or who have policies for their students -- do you also not enter the second advanced solo qualifier? If you qualify top 8 at the first event (state or regional), do you not enter for the following one because you've already qualified? For the teacher, do you have a similar policy that if someone isn't going to nationals, then your students aren't allowed to enter the state/regional advanced solo? Granted there are more spots available, but in some areas of the country, there are more than 8 in a division.

I'm just curious.

And if you've won one queen "title" event in a year, do you stop entering queens for the rest of the year because you already won a title and don't need another? -although this sounds like a joke, it doesn't sound very different from the similar arguments for Miss Maj/Pageant. You could say the same about any event...strut, solo, 2-baton....if it's not about accumulating wins (once you're in advanced that is), then why bother enter?? The reason competitive twirlers keep entering these events is because that's what competition is about. Challenging yourself to become better...pushing to get the next move, sequence, whatever. Putting yourself up against someone else to see how you compare. Because otherwise, the twirlers would stick to performances like parades, pep rallies and halftimes and not enter competition.

I will take a stab at this....

I am a teacher who doesn't let my students enter Miss Maj or Beg/Int pageant if they aren't going to AYOP. There is no need to win it if you aren't going to represent it.

I also encourage my students to not enter again if they win the first time(adv that is) Beg/Int students don't do it simply b/c there is nothing to gain for entering it again if they already qualified that year.

I don't restrict my students for entering any other events. My advanced soloists pretty much for the most part enter both State and Regional Solo in the same year. Now with that said I do have some cases where some kids don't or can't enter our State(which is in March) so they only enter in our Regionals(in June) or vise versa.

I have had kids with conflicts at Regionals with Graduations and recitals(have 4 this year with conflicts) so some of them can't enter Regionals to do solo b/c it falls on their conflict day.

For our State Adv soloists this year the most there were in any of the divisions was 6 so everyone qualified. But at our Regionals there could be up to 15 in one or more of the divisions. I fully expect everyone who won at our state to also enter the Regional solo. Do I have a problem with this? No...and the reason why is this. Because there are 8 spots to be earned. Not 1 as in Beg/Int Pagnt or 3 in Adv Miss Maj.

I feel like the pageant is harder to place in and I really don't have anyone who has won Adv who has said they are going to enter it again at Regionals. As a matter of fact I have NEVER had anyone except for 1 student and she isn't my student anymore(and some of the reasons she is not is b/c we didn't see eye to eye on things)

Maybe we are odd...but once we qualify we are all set with doing it again. I feel that they can practice their solo, strut and modeling events by entering open events and they don't need to enter the pageant again.

Call me crazy but thats what we do here.

I really don't care what other studios do or don't do...I really could care less if someone wins the title for 12 years in a row...I care about what my kids are doing, how they are representing our state/region and how they do in their events.

I think that this is a great discussion....Im not here to bash anyone to preach to anyone or to judge anyone.

A girl's mother once asked us if we would like her daughter to drop state solo (15 or so were entered) so that I would have a better chance of qualifying--I hadn't qualified at regionals. My mom said "your daughter can twirl. If my daughter qualifies it will be on her own merits." I ended up qualifying AND placing ahead of the girl who offered to drop. These were good people offering to drop, but it was more important for my self-worth that no one backed out for me. My mom and coach taught me an important lesson from this experience: No one has to do any less for you to do well, and if your best falls short, keep working.

Are we doing a service or disservice to the athletes by having them step aside an event for someone else or should all athletes actually try to work hard and win. I agree with CrazyTwirler. As a competitor, I dont want anyone standing aside for me to enter or potentially win/qualifly. I'm going to win and/or qualify on MY OWN MERITS, not have it handed to me. I see too many athletes/parents whinning because so and so didn't place/win becuase so and so was their. Here's a novel thought, how about putting the work in and actually try to defeat that person. Stop making excuses, and go practice. Twirling is sport, not a recreation activity, not a social function, a sport. Because of such, there are winners and losers. There can be only one winner, and several people who place. If you dont like how you place, work harder, practice, get better material, better routine construction, stop whinning. Not everyone wins, not everyone gets trophy, thats the chances you take entering a competition. Losing should feel bad if you are a true competitor. Go fix it and beat the one that beat you, then you feel accomplished. The helicopter parents need to stop convaluting the sport and stop making excuses. They didn't have it that day, it happens, deal with it.

Twirlsuperstar and Crazytwirler...I don't think you understand what we are trying to get feedback on in this thread....NO ONE is saying that a twirler shouldn't work hard or step aside for some one else. The issue is....should you be allowed to compete for 2 titles or let someone else have a chance if you have already won one of them?If you are Beg. or Int. and you qualified (won first place in reg. or M. Majorette) .....should you (possibly) take both spots by entering both contests....or let someone else have a chance?
My thought is.... let someone else have a chance. It isn't about my daughter stepping aside for someone else because it is or isn't a sport ....it is about the fact there are only 2 spots and I don't want her to think that having "titles" is the most important aspect of twirling...among other life lessons. I think it is great that someone else from our state will be able to participate at Nationals.

momof7 wrote:

If you are Beg. or Int. and you qualified (won first place in reg. or M. Majorette) .....should you (possibly) take both spots by entering both contests....or let someone else have a chance?
My thought is.... let someone else have a chance. It isn't about my daughter stepping aside for someone else because it is or isn't a sport ....it is about the fact there are only 2 spots and I don't want her to think that having "titles" is the most important aspect of twirling...among other life lessons. I think it is great that someone else from our state will be able to participate at Nationals.

Good news! Someone else does have the ability of representing the state/region. Here is the relevant section of the nbta rules --
"4. Elegibility
E. First-place Beginner or Intermediate contestants qualify for National Beginner/Intermediate pageants. Should a Beginner or Intermediate contestant enter both State and Regional pageants during the same competitive year and win first in both pageants, eligibility for National pageant is determined by first win OR A WIN AT THE HIGHER STATUS LEVEL. If both wins are in the same status level, runner-up in the second pageant becomes eligible. A double winner does not relinquish titles or awards but merely yields National eligibility in second pageant. Eligibility cannot be passed beyond fifth place."

I think we are running off the subject with this. You can only wear one banner at the national pageant so give somebody else a chance to wear one also. It is the greedy ones that ruin the sport. If you want the chance to have both titles then go for the other one the next year.
There are other individual events to do at the regional or state level so try for those titles.
So far we have not had that in our area and I do hope if somebody does that in the beg or int level where there are many others, I hope they get frowned upon.

twirlermom2 wrote:

If you want the chance to have both titles then go for the other one the next year.
There are other individual events to do at the regional or state level so try for those titles.
So far we have not had that in our area and I do hope if somebody does that in the beg or int level where there are many others, I hope they get frowned upon.

So your going to punish an athlete because they pushed themselves out of their comfort level, challenged up, and god forbid, did well? We should be encouraging the advancement of the athlete, not letting those who sandbag stay at a lower level for an easy win. In regards to those who say the titles dont matter, they actually do if you want to twirl in high school and especially college. In particularly, the advanced titles. What college is going to take Miss Novice or Miss Beginner on their line or feature. So whether one likes it or not, titles do matter or did you forget the thread over the controversy of Pagent banners?? One cannot have it both ways to suit their individual needs. Everyone already knew if you won at a higher level, congratulations for challenging up but now your here at the new level. Why regress and its better to progress. The thing that gets me though is seeing a beginner do a 5-spin in the beginning category. Lets move up sweetheart and stop holding back.

Earlier I was addressing a question posed by JJ, not the original poster. Everyone should compete in Grand National qualifiers. Pageant is different from other contests, although I don't personally agree with the mentality of stepping aside so others can win titles/place higher. I think it makes more sense in the advanced division, but I also don't see pageant as the be-all or end-all of twirling. I never qualified or tried to--advanced solo, novice strut, and novice model don't a pageant twirler make. I do try, and I will make it to advanced strut. If pageant could be based on strut, I think it would be better, but that's as far-fetched as NBTA adding an elite division.

It depends on motivation when a twirler does more than one pageant. Title greed and gaining experience are reasons cited for doing both pageants after winning one. It's not wrong, but is it proper pageant etiquette? According to many of the above posts, it's not good etiquette to compete in both, so avoid it if you believe it's poor etiquette (but please don't ask people if they want you to withdraw on their accord--withdraw or don't enter without making a production of it).

I believe twirling is a sport. To do your best in sports, you must train.
If your State pageant is held prior to your Regional pageant, I feel a twirler should be able to compete in the Regional pageant. If she wins, the State 1st runner-up then qualifies for the National pageant. If the Regional pageant is held prior to the State pageant, the twirler should be able to compete, at a reduced entry fee, so she can gain experience, get scores and comments from the judges, and to know where she ranks in the group. If she happens to be the best that day, she does not get the awards and title, but all competitors know where they rank and the State winner still gets to compete at the National level.
I feel the same should go for the advanced solo- if a twirler qualifies at both competitions, then the next twirler in line at the State level should be included in the National solo.
Twirlers need to get the opportunity to twirl, strut, and model (and interview) for 2 judges per event to get that much needed experience.
All twirlers(athletes) should get the same opportunities.
If twirlers and coaches want the non-twirling world to recognize twirling as a sport, they need to act like athletes and coaches of athletes.
Competition is not for everyone. Some people are much better suited to performing. Talent gets recognized by applause, but there are no champions singled out.
On a topic related note, good sportmanship can be exhibited by displaying the titles correctly, according to NBTA rules, not necessarily how your award banner you receive at the competition is written. The "Miss Majorette" title is only to be displayed by Advanced winners. It does not make it ok to add "Novice", "Beginner", and/or "Intermediate" on banners/sashes, shirts, jackets, bags, newspaper articles, etc....
Take it or leave it...that's just my opinion as a former twirler, coach, and judge.

Dancing_t, you may be onto something. If someone wins the title at the first competition (either State or Regional) and they have already paid for the next competition, what if they were able to still compete in the pageant event but for scoresheet only. That way they would not lose their money and they still are working their routines and competing with their peers. This could work.