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re: Who do you think was the worst/overrated/ best leader in history??
By kruegsiemember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Tue Jun 03, 2003 08:53 AM
Someone already said this but Hitler was a very very good leader, yes his ideas and the way he went about getting what he wanted was not right and he personaly was not a good person, but he was a great leader and he was one of the most influencial people of the 20th century, think of all the technology that would not have been developed if it wasn't for WWII. Look at how many people he got to agree with him and think the same way he did...
And for those of you who have the luxury of bashing on our President, (i fear that it is more of a bandwagon thing than anything actually based on fact) please remember that you HAVE the RIGHT to say whatever you want about him and nothing will happen to you. That I think is saying something. Bush may not be a great leader, he may not ever be a Lincoln of a Washington, but what do you really know about those presidents? When did they ever have to deal with nuclear weapons, chemical weapons, or terrorist attacks. I think under the circumstances Bush as done a great job, even with everyone looking down their nose's (is that the right form?) at him because of the whole election crap.... blah, i am spent....
re: Who do you think was the worst/overrated/ best leader in history??
By Sylphiemember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jun 03, 2003 01:57 PM
What annoys me about Bush is his neglect for environmenal issues. And also the whole pot-smoking thing...yeah, the leader of our country is a former crackhead...that says SOOO much about the U.S. Yet I don't think he's over or under rated. He's just nothing special, and I don't think he deserves to be one of the (insert any adj.) ____ leaders in history.
re: Who do you think was the worst/overrated/ best leader in history?? (karma: 1)
By Gingercookie
On Tue Jun 03, 2003 06:53 PM
And also the whole pot-smoking thing...yeah, the leader of our country is a former crackhead...that says SOOO much about the U.S.

If that's how you wanna do it...*cough*CLINTON*cough*

'scuse me, I've got a bit of a cold. *cough*whichpresidentwasimpeachedpleaseremindme*cough*

Right. I'd say the best, no questions asked, would be Jesus...but if we're talking political leaders...I honestly don't know. There have been many great leaders, but no one sticks out in my mind as 'the best'. Clinton is most definitely the most overrated. All you have to do is look at this thread...it's crackin' me up man.
re: Who do you think was the worst/overrated/ best leader in history??
By Enum
On Tue Jun 03, 2003 08:00 PM
OOOO h, that whole Clinton thing was a load of shit.

I do not condone what he did, but let's look at several decades ago.

Presidents who have had multiple affairs that I can directly say in the last 100 years:

John F. Kennedy
Warren G. Harding
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Bill Clinton

But hell, even with that, practically everyone before the 1950s had affairs in the presidency, save Abe Lincoln.

Thomas Jefferson also had an estimated 300 illegitemate children.

It almost gets to the point where you start asking what presidents DIDN'T have affairs, but it isn't that bad. Some of these people were among the U.S.'s greatest leaders in history. Fact is, affairs in politics are not uncommon, they happen more than one would wish.

Clinton was just a target for his enemies to exploit his immoral conduct, and in an age where the the media is in every nook and crannie of the country, it was only bound that an incident like Bill Clinton was going to happen.

Politically Clinton did a lot, he furthered the world peace process, got many nations liking us, made the economy boom, and was not afraid to use military force either.

Bush on the other hand has exaggerated on various situations, and acted like a little child giving the rest of the world the middle finger while he swings his stick. This has caused disasterous effects on relations between the U.S. and the world.

If Clinton had asked for support in Iraq in Clinton's era, would so many people oppose him? Almost definitely not. The same can be said for our relations with people world wide. I am no democrat or liberal, I infact am a moderate authoritarian, as I have said, but this Clinton bashing is ridiculous.
re: Who do you think was the worst/overrated/ best leader in history??
By Enum
On Tue Jun 03, 2003 08:01 PM
OOOO h, that whole Clinton thing was a load of sh*t.

I do not condone what he did, but let's look at several decades ago.

Presidents who have had multiple affairs that I can directly say in the last 100 years:

John F. Kennedy
Warren G. Harding
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Bill Clinton

But hell, even with that, practically everyone before the 1950s had affairs in the presidency, save Abe Lincoln.

Thomas Jefferson also had an estimated 300 illegitemate children.

It almost gets to the point where you start asking what presidents DIDN'T have affairs, but it isn't that bad. Some of these people were among the U.S.'s greatest leaders in history. Fact is, affairs in politics are not uncommon, they happen more than one would wish.

Clinton was just a target for his enemies to exploit his immoral conduct, and in an age where the the media is in every nook and crannie of the country, it was only bound that an incident like Bill Clinton was going to happen.

Politically Clinton did a lot, he furthered the world peace process, got many nations liking us, made the economy boom, and was not afraid to use military force either.

Bush on the other hand has exaggerated on various situations, and acted like a little child giving the rest of the world the middle finger while he swings his stick. This has caused disasterous effects on relations between the U.S. and the world.

If Clinton had asked for support in Iraq in Clinton's era, would so many people oppose him? Almost definitely not. The same can be said for our relations with people world wide. I am no democrat or liberal, I infact am a moderate authoritarian, as I have said, but this Clinton bashing is ridiculous.
re: Who do you think was the worst/overrated/ best leader in history??
By kruegsiemember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Wed Jun 04, 2003 10:58 AM
I'm sorry but I don't remember any of the former Presidents that you mentioned every flat out lying (i never spell that word right) to the american people and a court of the united states over something so stupid.... and how do you go from pot smoker to crackhead.... and why did none of you answer any of my questions.... where do you get that he is being smug from, Bush is doing what he has to, to protect his country.... I think that just sounds smart. And please don't tell me about what you have heard in the news about Iraq, because unless you are down there right now, or have contact with someone who was or is, you know almost nothing about what is really going on, trust me....
re: Who do you think was the worst/overrated/ best leader in history??
By Enum
On Wed Jun 04, 2003 12:09 PM
"I'm sorry but I don't remember any of the former Presidents that you mentioned every flat out lying (i never spell that word right) to the american people and a court of the united states over something so stupid.... "

Government figures lie to the people all the time.

It's just part of daily life. Vietnam, Nixon, Gulf War. EVERY president in history has lied to the American people at some point or another. Besides that, he only lied because if he didn't, today's modern media would ride him like a horse all the way to impeachment anyways. I honestly can't blame him for lieing when facing up against today's media. It seem even you have a problem with it.

"and how do you go from pot smoker to crackhead.... "

www.bushisms.com . . .

Read through it

"where do you get that he is being smug from, Bush is doing what he has to, to protect his country.... "

Because obviously getting the rest of the world pissed at us is the best way to preserve national security!
re: Who do you think was the worst/overrated/ best leader in history??
By kruegsiemember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Wed Jun 04, 2003 04:03 PM
you can forgive him okay whatever, but my point was he was in COURT, you know where you swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God.... funny how you seem to over look that.... actually everyone is not pissed at the u.s., we have several countries helping us and just because they didn't want to fight in the war doesn't mean anything, German soldiers currently gaurd the gates at almost every post here in germany, the U.S. military asked them to help and they said yes, everytime i drive onto a post i am saluted, why out of respect and i am not even a member of the military.... does it sound like they don't like us.... (and yes i realize that is just one example but it is the only one i have personal knowledge of) I don't know how you feel but there are times when i do NOT feel safe being an american in a different country, I had threatening notes left on my car while at a german mall, i have had my car vandlized, i have to go everywhere in groups because of force protection, my husband is currently in Iraq and I would give anything to have him home safe with me, however i know that he is doing his job to protect me and people like you who speak out against everything he is working so hard for, i am sorry but you can not support the troops and bash the war at the same time, you are making the families all those people who died FOR YOUR feel like their loved one died in vain! Don't say that you never asked for this to happen so they are not fighting for you, because they are and will contiune to so that you can have your right to say whatever you want whenever you please, i am not saying Bush is a good leader, but I am saying that i do feel a little bit safer now that Saddam is out of power.... but then again we all felt safe on September 10th 2001 didn't we....
re: Who do you think was the worst/overrated/ best leader in history??
By Enum
On Thu Jun 05, 2003 05:34 AM
I consider what Clinton did in court to be no worse than lieing to the people as a position of authority, save for reasons of National Security.

As for the rest of that, I am not really going to argue it because you have a loved one in Iraq, and I don't want to get into a debate over a topic that sensitive. I <b>do</b> have a deep and utter respect for all soldiers in all armies. Thus, I have a respect for him. All I can say is my condolences that he had to be away from you for this long, and I hope he returns soon.
re: Who do you think was the worst/overrated/ best leader in history??
By kruegsiemember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Fri Jun 06, 2003 03:00 PM
why do people do that, do you think i am going to have a mental break down and go nuts if you say something that i don't agree with just because my husband is in Iraq. I thought this was a debate fourm, I can seprate a debate from real life. If you have a differnt opinion that is fine and i respect that, don't back down because you feel bad for me. Really I can take it I am a big girl.

oh and thank you I know you are just trying to be nice, but everyone has been doing that to me lately....
re: Who do you think was the worst/overrated/ best leader in history??
By DancingAngel17
On Sat Jun 07, 2003 01:52 AM
Edited by DancingAngel17 (49481) on 2003-06-07 01:53:31
The best leader would be Jesus Christ. The worst would be Hitler, Stalin, Sadam Hussien and all those mass murderers.
I really like having Bush as our president. I support just about everything he does. He's a good president.
Clinton on the other hand is a moron. Im sorry but i have no respect for that man. He lied in court, he had an affair (yes i realize lots of people do, but cmon he was a role model for like the entire country, control yourself!) And many other reasons. I just really dont like him. Gosh and dont even get me started on his wife...
~Smile Always, Dance Forever~
~Lissie~
re: Who do you think was the worst/overrated/ best leader in history?? (karma: 2)
By orunmember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Sat Jun 07, 2003 11:05 AM
Edited by orun (34983) on 2003-06-07 11:07:26
You can always tell when someone has a poor grasp of history when Bush is emphasized as the worst leader.

Seriously, I can understand the most ardent liberals calling Bush overrated, but the WORST leader?

If you think Bush it _the_ worst leader, I have news for you, and I don't care if this gets me banned:

You are a shallow-minded IDIOT. You are a MORON and you need to read a HISTORY book.

And I don't use "shallow-minded" because its a common insult. You're mind is truly shallow and incapable of producing something intelligent.

But I know none of you fall into this category. You are simply anal over Bush's unprecedented success --- even Rush Limbaugh didn't expect Bush to do this well! The liberals are scared to death of Bush's approval ratings and our amazing victory in Iraq. Never before has the world seen such a successful military operation. And I can't wait til Bush gets voted in again because he has proven himself a REAL leader that the American people can trust and relate to.

He probably did try cocaine in college or something, but that doesn't qualify him for "crackhead" status. Think about it, 90% of people who get addicted to crack cannot get off of it. As stupid as all of you think Bush is, do you really think he would be in that 10% minority? Do you think he would have ever become president? Anyway, as poor a record as many of you have with sex, I don't believe you have too much room to talk about who is a loser. :D
re: Who do you think was the worst/overrated/ best leader in history??
By kruegsiemember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Sat Jun 07, 2003 01:28 PM
^ i think I may have a crush.... don't tell my husband.... :)
re: Who do you think was the worst/overrated/ best leader in history??
By DancingAngel17
On Sat Jun 07, 2003 02:31 PM
::: Stands up and applaudes::: Well put orun! You really know how to speak your mind and you arent some narrow minded liberalist. And Kruegsie, i agree! ;) I too, now have a crush.
~Smile Always, Dance Forever~
~Lissie~
re: Who do you think was the worst/overrated/ best leader in history??
By orunmember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Mon Jun 09, 2003 03:55 PM
Oh, don't worry, you two aren't the first :)

btw, is there a way to lose karma? Because yesterday I had 55 and today I have 52. (Not that I really track this stuff...)
re: Who do you think was the worst/overrated/ best leader in history??
By DancinEmsmember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Mon Jun 09, 2003 07:52 PM
I agree 100%!!
And my karma's been doing that too, but I dunno.
re: Who do you think was the worst/overrated/ best leader in history??
By bessiboo
On Mon Jun 09, 2003 08:31 PM
wow, i totally agree.. karma rate up for that!
re: Who do you think was the worst/overrated/ best leader in history??
By Odessamember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Mon Jun 09, 2003 08:52 PM
Anyway, as poor a record as many of you have with sex, I don't believe you have too much room to talk about who is a loser.

Orun, you are so RUDE. What does sex have to do with a debate about world leaders? Comments like that are uncalled for and completely irrelevant to a debate like this.
Also a great show of a lack of intelligence. I've always thought you were very smart, but I think my opinion may have been changed.

Erin.
::righteous babe::
re: Who do you think was the worst/overrated/ best leader in history??
By ldiva5678
On Mon Jun 09, 2003 10:24 PM
I'm sorry, but is a "poor record in sex" one that is lacking? Because if so, Orun, you are the one with the poor record, unless you've recently been married, because I know your stance on evil premarital sex! Just joking with ya, now...

Look, Orun, I agree (!) that Bush is not the worst leader in history. No sh*t. There are thousands of people that would take that title before he would. I certainly don't think he's the BEST leader, no matter how you define the term. He has a large group of people who hate him (some without any reason, but most with at least some explanation), he hasn't accomplished anything significantly spectacular that would raise him above other leaders, and then as my own personal definition, he doesn't fight for the rights that I hold dear, and in fact fights against many of them. So, whether we are defining "best leader" by the number of people who support him, the things he has accomplished, or by personal taste, he isn't the best leader out there. By the same token, he wouldn't rate as the "worst leader" in my book either, on any of the charges... Although in terms of environmental issues ALONE, he might rank in the top 5 for me.

Anyway, i see why you would be upset, Orun, but there are ways of pointing out the flaws in someone's logic, or telling them they are overreacting, other than calling them names and making judgements on their character and intelligence. It doesn't make you right, and sure as hell doesn't make you look any smarter yourself.

And one more thing: Kruegsie, DancingAngel, and DancingEms, shame on you for applauding someone who is name-calling. If you agree with him, fine, but let's try some maturity here and argue our side of the debate through DEBATING, not put-downs.

As far as karma is concerned, they used to have a feature to give negative karma. If this has been enabled again, or if they took into account the negative karma you received before the feature was disabled, perhaps that is why your karma has been lowered.
re: Who do you think was the worst/overrated/ best leader in history??
By orunmember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Tue Jun 10, 2003 04:40 PM
Orun, you are so RUDE. What does sex have to do with a debate about world leaders? Comments like that are uncalled for and completely irrelevant to a debate like this.
Also a great show of a lack of intelligence. I've always thought you were very smart, but I think my opinion may have been changed.


No, it's completely true. If you have had sex, you have LOST your virginity. You are a loser. One day I will be a loser, too.

As for my karma, it jumped back up to normal almost immediately afterwards... so no big deal :P
re: Who do you think was the worst/overrated/ best leader in history??
By MadRussianmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jun 10, 2003 07:45 PM
Edited by Borntobeadancer (14394) on 2003-06-10 19:48:18 Can't spell.. im tired!!
Wow, ok this turn into a huge debate on Bushie.. so lets see where to start..

Israel (ha theres a place) ok a road map to peace... I agree with him that yes.. we need peace in the middle east (has a little twang to it don't ya think?) but we can't compromise the security of the jewish settlers by letting those animals over there run wild. If we do that, more Palestinians will die too. Its not gonna work right now.. so we need to take a deep breath and deal with the Hamas.

Now.. I'm extreamly pissed because of the situation in Chechnya (kind of like this little middle east peace accord I just talked about) so as the US starts screaming at Russia for giving nukes to Iraq... hmm why don't we listen to the Chechen when they threaten to terrorize the world and Russia?? geez couldn't it be those pigs giving the nukes out?? Naw.. it would be the non-terrorist-peace seeking-anti evil- Russian Government.. well Mr.Bushie you have impressed me now!!

Nothing bothers me more than walking around school and being harassed because my country support Iraq terrorist with nu-clear (as Bushie puts it) weponds. I think we should just proclaim that the chechen terrorists are all in the peace corps.. lets see how the world handles unorganized anarchy!!!

~Ruskii B!
re: Who do you think was the worst/overrated/ best leader in history??
By Incarnadinemember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jun 10, 2003 07:58 PM
I was going to respond- but Orun sdaid it all first. heh heh.

I don't care what they say Orun- i have always liked you!
You give me faith in our generation.
re: Who do you think was the worst/overrated/ best leader in history??
By orunmember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Tue Jun 10, 2003 10:33 PM
After I become a well-established scientist I may try to run for president.

I think a non-politician might attract the American public. Currently, the presidency does not attract America's best and brightest, only politicians with money backing them. Plus I believe I have many admirable attributes for the position, in my humble opinion.

We'll see what happens. :P
re: Who do you think was the worst/overrated/ best leader in history??
By Enum
On Tue Jun 10, 2003 10:34 PM
Edited by Enum (65672) on 2003-06-10 22:38:03
I dislike Bush for the following reasons:

One: The Economy.

He ended a period of unheard of prosperity economically wise. Clinton increased the Nasdaq value by over 650% and the Dow Jones by over 220% in his term. He did this steadily during his 8 years. When he left office, there was a 375 billion dollar surplus due to him recieving more than he was spending. On top of that, Unemployment rates were the lowest they were in history.

Now, Bush comes in...

The dow has grown by -15%, the Nasdaq by -35%, and the S&P -25%. The GNP as well as GDP have gone from an unheard of exponential growth (except for in cases like the Moderization of Japan, which was just insane.) to actually being lowered. The surplus that Clinton left with has been turned into a $225 billion deficit. On top of this, he just made a major... MAJOR tax cut designed mostly for the richest 1% of the country anyways. People making $10000 - $23000 get a 2% tax cut, where as $150,000 and up are getting a tax cut of 7%!

Two: Foreign Affairs.

Clinton was able to get a temporary cease fire between Pakistan and Israel. He avoided almost all Military conflict which costs billions of dollars and more importantly, loss of life on both sides, except for in minor instances, namely Kosovo. He had the "Serbian Hitler", Slobadon Milosevic, captured somewhat quickly, and had a swift military defeat over his opponent. On top of that, he was doing miracles in relations with other nations, helping various economies and making friends with many nations who carried a bad stigma towards the U.S.

Bush comes in and almost immediately makes an "Axis of Evil" speech, basically threatening almost all of our enemies and soem neutral countries which have chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons. He not only ruins the positive momentum which was our foreign policy and relations with other nations, he then goes and makes some more enemies too. This is very very smart, considering half of those nations could pose a serious threat to the U.S. solely because of their technology.

So on one side, he is supposidly looking for our best interest, trying to take out a nation which was supposedly a large threat to the U.S., yet at the same time, he completely contradicts this by threats to nations with biological and nuclear weapons? Is he really looking out for National Security? He needlessly threatened nations that would readily go to war with us. Some people argue this stops nations from doing the actions we don't want, however this clearly isn't the case, as North Korea continues to manufacture nuclear weapons, and other nations are not detered by his speech at all, but are infact just angered by it.

He launches a campaign against Iraq. But where as Milosevic ran with his pants around his waste from the U.S., Bin Laden is still in power, and continues to mock the U.S. with video tapes and continues to operate. On top of this, we still do not know if we will be able to find Sadamm Hussein either.

Now, on top of this, The War in Iraq. He throws diplomacy out the window, ignoring the will of the rest of the world, save a small "Coalition of the Willing", consisting of only one super power besides the U.S. Blair is practically Bush's bitch anyways. So yes, how about we act unilaterally almost, flipping off the rest of the world. What a great way to make and keep allies. It's clear that Bush is doing every smart thing to preserve National Security. It's also especially clear that the war in Iraq was done solely because of the threat to the U.S. and because of how bad he treats his people. It must be!

But wait? OH YES, that's right! There are over 20 nations which have worse conditions and worse dictators with worse tendancies. OH YEAH, there are also many nations which pose just as much, if not more of a threat to the U.S., and are in practically worse relations with us than Iraq. Some of these nations fit in both categories, yet we are taking practically no military action with these? On top of that, Bush acted on inferior intelligence, and has not found any Nuclear weapons in Iraq yet. Bush's only response to this is basically "nuh-uhhh, we'll find them, just you wait", which leads one to think, will Bush place the evidence where it's needed if his arguments are this poor? His dad openly lied to the public, hiring an actor to talk on television about how "babies were being thrown on the street". Not only was what she said completely untrue, but as I also said, the script was written by Schwartskov and his advisors, the same people who hired the actor. This all being endorsed by Bush.

Let's also not forget the horrible argument he gave at the U.N. Powell and Bush basically resorted to I'm right and you're not at one point, and I am dissapointed, considering Powell is the only person in the Bush administation I like.

So Bush has pissed off the rest of the world, done the all of his military operations less efficiently than Clinton's only major conflict, Kosovo, and has ruined the 8 years of diplomatic and economic prosperity that was enjoyed under Clinton. I believe this is more than enough of a reason to label Bush as one of the Worst, as he has acted compltely irresponsibly.

I would add more, especially about alcohol, drugs, and how he lied about each, along with running into a bar, screaming and cursing at a newspaper editor and his family at a restaraunt, along with hundreds of other funny tidbits, but suffice to say, I don't believe Bush is fit for the presidency.
[EDIT: Just for the count, I am a moderate authoritarian, not liberal, and true, I may have listed Bush as THE WORST slightly out of spite and due to the fact that he is a current menace as compared to an old one, but I retain my opinion that he is ONE of the worst]
re: Who do you think was the worst/overrated/ best leader in history??
By MadRussianmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Wed Jun 11, 2003 11:29 AM
Enum, welcome to dance.net by the way!!

your opinion was well stated and I agree with you 120%!!

Its nice to see another open minded person on this board :)

~Ruskii B!

~Long live the Russian Federation
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