So, I was just reading another post and it sparked another blogging opportunity...

I've found at most competitions, that our pieces do not do so well, because we are more artistic. All of the dances that are turns, fuettes, etc. in mass unison...seem to do better ALL THE TIME. I get bored watching robot after robot dance come on and do the same things. But more importantly...our kids get SO deflated...they are excellent dancers but continue to get looked over on many occassions because we're not a "canned" competition dance company.

What is everyone elses opinion on this? Should we change just to win? I don't think so...

Don't change what you are doing! I think it is horrible to teach kids to just do tricks to win a competition. I have taken kids to comps before, and it is not always about winning. They got some high schores and high awards, and the number they took to nationals that made it to the dance off had NO PIROUETTES!! It was a very well done character piece. I did not choreograph it, but I really think it had no pirouettes, just a couple of 3-step turns, but they were together, in character and the steps they did, were done well with good technique and A LOT of energy. They really committed to the story they were telling and that is why they did so well - because they were artists.

I tell my girls the differences between artistry, creativity, expression and technique versus copying, tricks and cheap chosen material.
They all agree with me about my choices when in the studio.
When they see other dances at competitions, they come to me telling me how bad the technique is and how they wouldn't wanted to be in that team.
When they see who wins, they say: "If we have to move like that to win, we prefer not to win".

I will be taking students to competition for the first time this year so I don't have an answer for you, just a question. What comments are on your judging critiques? Are their different comps you could go to that would appreciate your artistic vision and your students talents?

No!! Never change what you know in your heart is right for you and your dancers. I am sure part of the experience of seeing them on the stage is enjoying the choreography you created and the inspiration behind it. My favorite ballet choreography that I put together won maybe one award and it is still the one closest to my heart over the few I did with all the bells, whistles, tricks and flash that won me multiple awards. My students liked performing my favorite over all the others by the way. Chin up and keep the faith!

Maybe you should reconsider the comps you attend. They are all so different. Look around for different comp companies. And just as atthebarre mentioned, make sure that you are paying attention to your critiques. Make sure that it's not because of something else technical. Where are you losing points?

We are the very same way. I do teach my students how to do fouettes and special leaps etc, but we DO NOT load our dances with them. The girls that are fairly younger always ask me "Why do they get to do stuff like that in their dances?" It's so hard for me because I just want to go off about how the way they are taught will never get them any professional jobs and learning how to actually "dance" will take you much much farther, but I have to remember that I'm supposed to stay cool so I don't. But Uhhh I understand your frustration!

My dancers are starting to understand better now, but it still drives me crazy!

Ahusk89 wrote:

It's so hard for me because I just want to go off about how the way they are taught will never get them any professional jobs and learning how to actually "dance" will take you much much farther

This is where the big comp schools that have a choreo checklist, fail their students. Industry insiders will warn students repeatedly about the perils of cookie cutter training. Sooo many of these kids have such a shock when they are taken out of the comp bubble. It's sad that comps can become such a racket.

There are plenty of teachers who stay true to the art and create BEAUTIFUL work at comps. They usually do exceptionally well. We used to go to NYCDA in Boston and the top tier studios were AMAZING and fuette -free!!!!

All of your comments are good to hear. Most of the judges comments for us are little things...and I agree, maybe we need to check out some other competitions. Sometimes I wonder if they are even looking at technique and its so frustrating!!!

Mostly tap, because its close to my heart, I am disheartened when my student, who has a clean, well performed, routine with variety, rhythm changes but maybe not a lot of tricks is beat by someone with just a ton of pickups and such.

I'm not going to change the way I teach, I just wish the kids would get judged on a different level.

I had the same problem as you. I take a very artistic approach to my choreography. I want my kids to have emotional attachment to every step they take on the stage...fifteen a la seconde turns are hard to make meaningful in my opinion.

As I was saying, I "had" the same problem till I attended Tremaine. Amazing! First time we were credited for our artistry...check them out. Its a must!!!!

Check into some different competitions. If your doing the same comps year after year knowing that they only score the routines with 3000 pirouettes in them well, then maybe its time to try something new. Yes, there are competitions who only give platinums to the robots, and those continue to run because the studios winning those awards will keep giving them their money to give them platinum awards. Just make sure that your instilling hard work into your students and that they know winning isn't everything. If you consider the real purpose of competing as more than just a pretty trophy, you are rewarded much more in the end when your hard work really does pay off.

Does anyone else know much about Tremaine...or have any opinions on Tremaine?

Another comp that values choreography & artistry over tons of trix is Cathy Roe's Ultimate Dance Challenge. I'm of the same mind as most of you who have replied here......my studio values artistry over tricks, and we do use tricks although sparingly, so they mean something, but we focus much more on style & acting skills & movement quality, in addition to the basics of good technique. We attended Cathy Roe last year, both regionals & nationals, & she really does put her awards where she says she will! The judges at nationals were even seated in the front row of the balcony, where they could see the formations & really admire the choreography. The studios with the awesome choreography on top of the good technique won, and that was refreshing to see. There weren't even a whole lot of half-naked booty shakers or 10 million fouette-ers there, probably because they wouldn't have done well anyway.

As for picking & choosing which comps to attend, I've really started to do that over the last couple of years. THere are some that I just won't attend despite certain aspects that I really like, simply because they don't share my vision, so my kids don't do well. Either they like the half-naked look, which we never do, or they don't like our story-based dances (we do lots of pieces that have a storyline and aren't just displays of technique), or they're awed by the 10 million a la 2nds of other studios, etc. I've weeded them out of our schedule, & now we pretty much go where we know we'll be appreciated. I don't want to set my kids up for defeat, even when they've had the performance of their lives!

That is what I was going to say.. Find the right competition for your choreography style.

I don't think that the flashy competition dances are bad per say... they are just a different style. They are dances to win a competition not to show the artistry of dance. I think there is a fine line when competing int he dance world and some competitions are much like cheer competitions and are treating dance like a sport. There is nothing wrong with that if that is the type of studio or choreographer you are. It takes talent either way to pull off some of the things that these kids pull off. I will say that my studio is a mix of many styles becasue all of my teachers have their own background and style. Non or us focus on trick after trick, but I do have some flashy jazz pieces that are definitely competition pieces.

DancerTonite wrote:

All of your comments are good to hear. Most of the judges comments for us are little things...and I agree, maybe we need to check out some other competitions. Sometimes I wonder if they are even looking at technique and its so frustrating!!!

Mostly tap, because its close to my heart, I am disheartened when my student, who has a clean, well performed, routine with variety, rhythm changes but maybe not a lot of tricks is beat by someone with just a ton of pickups and such.

I'm not going to change the way I teach, I just wish the kids would get judged on a different level.

Oh I feel you on this one. It's not just a you thing... it's a tap thing. I'm not sure where you're from but I'm from Canada and there are many competitions I want to avoid because not one of the judges have any tap experience. I know a lot of the "regulars" when it comes to judges and if they've taken tap, it was a few years in highschool. It's really sad too because when we go to competitions with "tappers" or even people that have some experience in tap, we clean up. But at the other competitions it's the flashy, swingy numbers with tons of arms that win.

In terms of my students, they get it. Especially the older ones and they don't take it to heart. Instead when they do well, get a special award, or just get a critique from a judge who knows their stuff, they appreciate it that much more. Unfortunately this is the competition world, and competitions are looking for judges who are well rounded but usually they can be missing a discipline here or there. That's life, that's their opinion, but don't change what you're doing, because you're actually giving your dancers an EDUCATION, not just a routine.

About the tap issue:

It IS really frustrating. As of last year, the only thing we EVER took to competition was tap (we have an enormous tap progra). We do not do flash steps just to win - it is all based on their syllabus and creative choreo. Well, one year, the kids were doing slurps and the judge was yelling into the microphone to not flap with your heel (slurp = third). Yelling. Because he didn't know enough about tap. And we never place well - we usually end up competing against ourselves, as no one taps at these things anyway!

makingart wrote:

About the tap issue:
Well, one year, the kids were doing slurps and the judge was yelling into the microphone to not flap with your heel (slurp = third). Yelling. Because he didn't know enough about tap. And we never place well - we usually end up competing against ourselves, as no one taps at these things anyway!

I'm sorry...I had to giggle at the judges comment. Are there no comps that have judges that have a tap background or more specifically a rhythm tap background in your area? NYCDA has their master teachers judge the comp. There is always at least one exceptional tapper on the panel. They's know the difference between slurps and flaps.

I agree, try different competitions. You might also consider registering in different styles. I learned this the hard way. I entered a number in ballet, but the judges made a comment that they would have prefered if it was competed under character.

Tremaine is a wonderful place to complete. They do give points for creativity, but also are hard on those peices that are only tricks. During a class one of judges discussed the use of acro during peices- he marks down on acro if the dancers move into the movements like athletes and not dancers.

I also found a few other competitions give out awards for the most creative choreography and even creative costuming. Remember, everything your students bring to the stage is part of the peice.

I saw on the internet a dance compeitions group that does not like groups that only complete tricks and will mark down as it does not show the creativity. I think it was call "I Love Dance".

Good luck!

^ In response to the above, the SO of a studio I worked for a couple years ago went to I Love Dance because she knew her kids would score well there. I hated it. It was in a hotel on that awful "dance" floor they always bring out for wedding receptions and the space was tiny. The judges sat up at a table and after the dance went the woman judge would ding her water glass with a knife to alert all those watching that faux pas had been made according to their rules - and she dinged that glass a lot. I thought it was unprofessional and the level of dancing was ridiculously low - recital dances at best. I felt ashamed to be there and to be associated with a studio that would deem their dancers good enough to win easy as a morale boost. :/ Maybe it's only that way in my area but...

Tremaine is great. I always hear great critiques from them which is more my focus in going. It gives me as a teacher the chance to sit back and watch my dancers, for good or bad, and gives me a direction to take their technique (for instance we went thru a bad phase of great legs and iffy arms, sitting back and watching and hearing the corrections, I was able to focus more on the port de bras and epaulment in class which in turn helped them with their jazz and lyrical pieces). I also really like LADF since it has a convention attached to the competition. Amazing teachers for two days and then the competing becomes a bonus, not the focus.

I agree with the assessment of I Love Dance. Very rinky-dink, held in an ancient middle school w/a nasty stage & small space. The whole thing was just unprofessional in every way, & I'd never take my kids there now that I own a studio.

Another comp that tends to reward creativity & choreography & to not be taken in by the cookie-cutter, all-flash studios is Applause. They're all about the stuff that comes in between the tricks!

Mostly tap, because its close to my heart, I am disheartened when my student, who has a clean, well performed, routine with variety, rhythm changes but maybe not a lot of tricks is beat by someone with just a ton of pickups and such.

I feel for you and I could have written this statement myself. Do you know how discouraging it is to have a fabulous tap student do tap solos for a few years and they get passed up in the overalls because the lyrical dancers have 801 turns and is so flexible she can kick her leg hold it, wrap it around her head, and then suck on her toes? After a few years they have the mentality if you can't beat them...join them. So my wonderful tappers do a contemporary or lyrical piece and start taking firsts everywhere they go.

I had a student that got beat out by a girl that did hip hop in tap shoes. The hardest thing she did was a maxi ford and then did chaine's on the tips of her toes and some wings on her toes (that were done badly) and she beat my girl. INSANE!!!

Dupree used to have good judges for tap but that convention has taken a nose dive. I agree that Cathy Roe is a good competition, and DMA used to have good tap judges. There is a competition in Canada that is called Triple Threat that has a few decent tap judges I heard.

I'm wondering what was meant by "recital dances at best"...Do you mean by way of choreography or by way of cleaning? Either way, I don't feel like there should be a distinction. I wouldn't put a dance on stage for the public to see that wasn't good enough, and in the past I have taken recital dances to competition and done well with them.

faerydust00 wrote:

I'm wondering what was meant by "recital dances at best"...Do you mean by way of choreography or by way of cleaning? Either way, I don't feel like there should be a distinction. I wouldn't put a dance on stage for the public to see that wasn't good enough, and in the past I have taken recital dances to competition and done well with them.

What I meant by recital dances at best was more a hit to the presentation and execution. Imagine your sterotypical Dolly Dinkle class of mediocre 6-8 year old doing an easy tap dance where they weren't together and stared at each other waiting for someone to remember what came next and then did a few bad shuffle steps in the meantime while one girl spun around. I believe in my dancers knowing the choreography for themselves, recital or not, I only dance on the side stage with them for baby combo classes and combo classes wouldn't be competing. So considering that was the bulk of the dances I saw - poorly rehearesed, lacking creative choreography, and missing key technique - I lumped it into the Dolly Dinkle recital dance stereotype. But as I said, maybe that's just my locality with that competition.

I find that most CONVENTION COMPETITIONS are very fair in the scoring department as far as rewarding artistry. At these events, the master teachers/choreographers are the judges for the competition. I find that the critiques we receive from these competitions are also more valid. At my studio, I take my students to mostly convention competitions because I value spending part of the weekend taking classes and learnings while competing as well. If their parents are going to shovel out money for comps, I want the kids taking classes too. We attend Tremaine, Co Dance, Dancer's Inc, Dancer's Rock, and NYCDA. I'd recommend any of those for artistry! Good Luck!

^^^^ That's precisely what I said before.

When Dan Karaty speaks about the musicality in your hip-hop routine in the competition, it has validity and weight.

When Andy Blankenbueler teaches your kids a theatre dance routine at the convention, it makes a difference in the students education and perspective.

I also highly recommend the convention/competition route.