This is a follow up to the "Unkind Comments" thread.

A few of us threw out our lay mans opinion on children who are constantly comparing themselves to others or those who always complain about "being last", etc.

Of course, today I teach class and that kind of behavior is all over the place. One child stands in the back line for her preschool dance and was angry that she wasn't in the front, so she crossed her hands and pouted the whole dance. I told her mother that she refused to dance and she said "well I think she's upset because she's in the back line." ummmm....yes she is. This is one of the reasons why.

Anywho, there is a grandparent of a child who is in the same class who is a psychotherapist. She is quite credentialed. She used to counsel at the Betty Ford Clinic. Suffice it to say, she's seen her share of messy adults and children.

She and I have had extensive conversations on Personality Disorders, sociopathic behavior,etc. because I LOOOVVVEESSS me some psychology.

She made a comment once that she could identify the kids that would be problematic adults by observing their behavioral patterns in my class.

I decided to ask her today "what makes a person develop victim consciousness?" I wondered if she thought it was nature or nurture.

Her response was that it is primarily environmental. If children are raised in homes where love is not healthy and consistent or they have tons of chaos around them, they develop the "I'm bad...woe is me....I suck" perspective.

My next question..."When is this 'fixed/non-mutable'? Can it be changed?" Her reply - "By six years old, the basic personality is in place. It may be somewhat changeable until the age of 15. If they are still enduring the chaos, the chances are very slim of changing at all. After 15, if you try to help them or point out their shortcomings it will turn into "Look, you're doing it to me too!"

Interesting to come to terms with the fact that while we make some impact on our students, what they endure at home on a more consistent basis is what primarily creates their personality. It can't be changed.

"Molly-my-skirt-is-the-most-sparkly", "Valerie-validate-me-again" and "Wanda-why-am-I-always-last?" will always and forever be thus.

Good to know.

Oy, what a scary concept!! Maybe we should just adopt all of those kids and save them!! UGH!

Makes me want to hug my babies and tell them I love them more than I already do...

I have a couple of kids who are already in that mindset, that is scary!

I think the best that we can do is what we DO do. We provide stability for the 5 minutes they are with us. We also continue to remind them that despite what they believe, the universe does not revolve around them. "We appreciate your sparkly skirt, but I'd rather see you learn to be kind."

It also interesting to know that we probably make the most impact on the 3 to 6 year old age group. This has always been my favorite age group to work with. If I would have ever chosen to work in the school system, I would have taught kinders.

As far as scooping them all up and saving them...not for me. I'll adopt the Serenity Prayer's perspective on that one -

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

I'd rather do that kind of work with children and parents who are open to it, like malnourished African babies or cancer babies. More gratifying to me.

Amen!

Well, thank you for that insight from the psychotherapist. It is very educational and unsettling at the same time. I agree that doing what we do gives some consistent stability for a short time every week so that's a positive thing. I'll tell you though there are nights when you could spend the whole dang lesson waking them up to the reality that the world doesn't revolve around them. It's three weeks until Spring Show for me and I am beginning to feel the weariness of trying to be patient 100% of the time. Tonight when I was explaining how to do a particular step the right way then asked "Are there any questions?" I could already feel the tension creeping up my neck into my clenched jaw as one little one raised her hand and the question was... "Did you see my new barrettes?!?" It took every ounce of determination not to slowly and menacingly hiss " I mean about the step I just took to time to show you how to do correctly" Sorry little ladies until the Show the world revolves around me and what I want... Just kidding!

I had created a rule for classes with such kids. Only three questions were allowed. Once they asked three, they could ask no more, so do not waste questions. I told them, "If you need to go to the bathroom and you already asked three questions (not with age 5 or under, though), you will not be able to ask."

It took a couple of weeks for them to get the point but it worked.

Ugh, what gets me are the smart children. The ones who you know their parents are screwing up because they don't see that their 4 year old is smarter than them. We'll call her Gayle. Gayle screams and cries and throws a tantrum *every* time she's asked to do something.

"Gayle, stand on orange."
"NO I HATE ORANGE!!! MMMuuummmph!" *folds her arms and yanks her body away and begins to sob*
"Gayle, you have two choices - you either stop crying and stand on orange or I take you to sit in time out."
"NOOOO !"
"Pick one, time out or the orange spot. If you don't pick by the time I count to three, I'll choose for you."
"1"
"2"
"3... time out it is."
*Gayle throws her body down on the floor kicking and crying and hitting as she gets hauled to time out*
The door opens and Gayle's mom says "I'll take her to calm down" and before the words "No, she'll be fine." can leave your mouth Gayle is sitting in her mom's lap getting her hair stroked. She comes back in calm. Talk to the mom after class, "Gayle was upset because she wouldn't stand on orange and I gave her two choices time out or stand in her spot, and she ended up in time out. When you took her out of the classroom environment, she loses respect for me as a teacher and authority figure." "Oh, I'm sorry, I won't do that again."

Next week...

"Okay Gayle and Suzie, it's your turn!"
"I don't want to go with Suzie, I want to go with Jane."
"Oh, I'm sorry Gayle, it's your turn and Suzie's turn, it's not Jane's turn yet."
*bursts into tears*
"I WANT TO GO WITH JANE!!! I HATE SUZIE!"
"Oh, no thank you. Gayle you will apologize to Suzie right now because you will not treat my friends that way."
"NO! MMMMummmmph!" *folds her arms and turns away*
"Okay, then it's time for time out."
*pick up Gayle and place her in time out where she screams and cries and throws a tantrum*
"Gayle, you will sit in timeout for 2 minutes after you have control and stop crying, then you may join us."
*Gayle continues to pitch a fit thru the rest of everyone's turn*
"Okay class come get a ribbon and let's freeze dance!"
*everyone runs to get a ribbon and Gayle immediately stops crying*
*Freeze dance starts*
"But I want to freeze dance!"
"Oh, good your not crying! Let's start your two minutes of time out and then you can join us!"
*song ends - funny how that song is exactly two minutes long...*
"Oh I'm sorry Gayle, maybe next time if you follow directions, you'll be able to freeze dance with us. Okay, it's tap shoe time!"
"NOOOO !!!!! I WON'T PUT ON MY TAP SHOES!!!!!!!"
*door opens* "Gayle come here now, we need to talk."

/headdesk

Thanks mom. Thanks. Obviously this four year old is smarter than you because she knows if she throws a fit you're going to rescue her. She knows that if she doesn't get her way, you'll make her all better. Way to screw up your child. Someday I see the world being ruled by a hateful and evil dictator named Gayle. This child is going into Kindergarten in September? Heaven help her teacher. Life is going to be very tough for Gayle because her mom won't let her learn the consequences of her actions. I've no doubt that she gets everything she wants because if she doesn't, all she has to do is scream and throw a fit and mom will get it for her. I hate bad parents...

terpsidance wrote:

Well, thank you for that insight from the psychotherapist. It is very educational and unsettling at the same time.

You're welcome. She has answered a lot of my questions. Once she sat in on observation day and said "I couldn't do what you do. I can already tell what kind of adults they will be and I have no patience for it."

She did work early in her career with young children who had already committed heinous crimes and were put away. We had such a long conversation about criminal behavior, borderline personality disorder, anti-social personality disorder, etc. It was so interesting. I love learning about human behavior.

terpsidance wrote:

"Did you see my new barrettes?!?" It took every ounce of determination not to slowly and menacingly hiss " I mean about the step I just took to time to show you how to do correctly"

This is why I asked on the other thread for the rainbow/butterfly response. I just want to lash out. I did a little today with the one child who pouted. She just irks the hell out of me.

Sumayah wrote:

Ugh, what gets me are the smart children. The ones who you know their parents are screwing up because they don't see that their 4 year old is smarter than them. Obviously this four year old is smarter than you because she knows if she throws a fit you're going to rescue her. She knows that if she doesn't get her way, you'll make her all better. Way to screw up your child.

Manipulators come in all forms. I have seen the "obvious" pouty crying manipulator. I have also seen the ones that pretend to be nice while they are privately anything but. They also have their parents wrapped. Pathetic.

I have seen a thief that everyone around believes is the bees knees. If you told their family and friends of the crimes they've committed, they'd say "NOT so and so! They'd NEVER do that!!!" ummmm...ya...anybody actually paying attention to the way they operate??? Guess not.

I have no tolerance for the manipulators....the obvious ones OR the masked ones.

I'm not keen on the idea that adults can't change, because of the circumstances of their childhood. While it's undeniable that the way our parents raise has a great deal with the adults we become, I do believe that adults who WANT to change can and will. I suppose that's why there are so many psychological theories out there.

LMAO over the world-power dictator named Gayle...

I have one who's parents are going through a messy divorce. Half the time I want to hug her and the other time I want to pull my hair out.

Seriously. Who the hell DROPS THEIR 5-year-old off at the door? Never comes in, puts all the responsability on the little girl. They didn't come to parent's night, then came the week after and the mom spend the entire time texting. I felt like ripping the phone out of her hands and slapping her with it.

Meanwhile, this little girl is either clinging to me, OR she is making herself cry, hiding in the bathroom, mumbling stuff at me under her breath, you name it.

Thank you for reminding me that there are just things that are out of my control and there's nothing I can do about it. I have been in this business for 20 years and I still make mistakes all the time with students and parents because of their wacked out personalities. Not everybody will love me, mainly because they can't love themselves. Yesterday was a case in point and I was up half the night beating myself up about it, and this helps me feel like I'm not that bad after all. Thanks!

DaDancingPsych wrote:

I'm not keen on the idea that adults can't change, because of the circumstances of their childhood. While it's undeniable that the way our parents raise has a great deal with the adults we become, I do believe that adults who WANT to change can and will. I suppose that's why there are so many psychological theories out there.

She wasn't implying that adults do not have the capacity to evolve and change. But it requires a fair amount of consciousness and will to separate your psyche from what it has been taught. We were discussing the children.

Since she's a psychotherapist, she must believe in the capacity to change or she wouldn't have chosen her profession. Working at the Betty Ford Center must have put her close to tons of addicts in need of rehab. She's probably also seen how many people do not successfully change regardless of the rehab.

My question to her was specifically about "victim consciousness". If one subscribes to that consciousness, changing is highly unlikely. The "nothing ever works out for me" personality does not fare well in general.

Also, her comment was regarding those of us who TEACH the students. WE cannot change their personalities. We can provide structure and reliable discipline, but we are not going to change the "comparers".

In regards to how it relates to me specifically as an educator, I have to understand that these children are currently undergoing the situations at home that will form the adults that they become. Their personalities are in the developmental stage. If they get 23 hours of a home life that shapes them and 1 hour with me redirecting, it's not going to shape their psyche.

My question on the other thread was how to get the comparers or the woe is me kids to stop. Answer....you don't. Or maybe you do for the HOUR, but that's it. Then off they go, back to the scenario that has created this. The over attentive mom. The chaotic home environment. You name it.

The wisdom in her words is in that WE cannot change anyone who is not open/receptive/ready for change. Even as an adult, the only people who ever change are ones that WANT to change. No therapist, teacher, friend, family member, etc can force a person to change.

I had a mother at our school like that. It was like dealing with a 3 year old child sometimes. Her daughter did not start out like that, but eventually, she did, to the point where they would both try to undermine others to make themselves be the top, and sadly, at the beginning of her senior year, she caused a stupid fight with the ballet teacher, in front of 40 other kids in the ballet company class, and I had to ask them to leave. I put up with it for too long and learned a hard lesson from that.

pamzie wrote:

Not everybody will love me, mainly because they can't love themselves.

Because I am a giving person of relative sound mind (hehe) and I am stable and fair in my policies and discipline, I have long past the point of thinking "it's me".

Now, when I come across the angry parents and nutty kids, I realize they don't like themselves very much and their vitriol is an outward expression of what ails them at home.

The wisdom in her words is in that WE cannot change anyone who is not open/receptive/ready for change. Even as an adult, the only people who ever change are ones that WANT to change. No therapist, teacher, friend, family member, etc can force a person to change.

So true!!!