Forum: Arts / Religion

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re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By KayEllePremium member
On Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:24 PM
MrsFinnigan wrote:


Aaaand I suppose you also never go to plays, movies, concerts, recitals, or classes- all places that require the same courtesies. The only difference is that, instead of interrupting people's communal entertainment or education, at church, the same things that disrupt people watching movies, plays, et cetera disrupt people's communal worship time too. It's rude all the same.


Oh, I wasn't talking about the OP, I was talking about all of the back and forth judgement and "this is how I worship" and "well that's all wrong because we do this communally" and "yeah well y'all have it easy, try having to spend time in MY religion."
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By kandykanePremium member
On Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:34 PM
Edited by kandykane (157761) on 2009-06-01 12:44:05
Aaaand I suppose you also never go to plays, movies, concerts, recitals, or classes- all places that require the same courtesies. The only difference is that, instead of interrupting people's communal entertainment or education, at church, the same things that disrupt people watching movies, plays, et cetera disrupt people's communal worship time too. It's rude all the same.


So is judging others.


And no thanks KayElle, I'll pass. I find church politics tiresome and unchristian.

It appears this topic is more about sociology than religion. :?

kk~
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By webstArmember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Mon Jun 01, 2009 01:12 PM
As a website that's devoted to many forms of dance and other performing arts, I'm pretty shocked at how many people can completely excuse all of this behavior. Religion, God, forgiveness, judgement, and everything that has been mentioned aside - it's basic common courtesy.

If you're texting away on your cell phone, letting your children run amuck, or butting in front of other people in line, you're being disrespectful to everyone else around you. The only one I'll excuse is leaving early - because that's what these people that I just mentioned should do. Extenuating circumstances or not, if you can't spend one hour a week being courteous to the people around you, you need to remove yourself from that setting.

I spent several years performing shows for people who have absolutely no idea how to behave at a live performance, and it's extremely disheartening. While I'm not religious, I think it all still applies.

Oh, I wasn't talking about the OP, I was talking about all of the back and forth judgement and "this is how I worship" and "well that's all wrong because we do this communally" and "yeah well y'all have it easy, try having to spend time in MY religion."


Quoted for truth.
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service (karma: 3)
By d4jmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Mon Jun 01, 2009 01:46 PM
Edited by d4j (104724) on 2009-06-01 13:55:19 added a bit...
Edited by d4j (104724) on 2009-06-01 13:55:47 clarification...
Edited by d4j (104724) on 2009-06-01 13:57:14 more clarification...
Edited by d4j (104724) on 2009-06-01 14:03:37 will the fixes ever end???
I guess I just have a live and let live attitude. All the annoying things that people do, whether at church or at the movies, etc., really you have to learn to let it roll off your back. Let's use the noisy child scenario: It is what it is. You can respond all sorts of ways: judging, excusing, forgiving or ignoring, or choose to lend a hand and help the harried parent out, pray for them, get up and move or leave, or say something, etc. The thing is, you get to choose your reaction or non-reaction. You are not as subjected to the situation (as in being a victim) as you think you are. So to me it is sort of pointless to point out what the rules are, be they religious ones or public behavior ones - because we all know the rules, even those who are breaking them. And there will ALWAYS be those who break them so I think it is better to decide how you are going to handle it. If you decide that the best way for you (general you) to handle it is to judge and condemn then at least acknowledge that you are CHOOSING to put energy into something that probably isn't worth your time - in the grand scheme of things it is not really that important.

Of course now that I've stated all this tolerant-sounding stuff, let me say that I am not perfect in this area and probably have my share of vent posts through the years here. :)
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By kandykanePremium member
On Mon Jun 01, 2009 01:54 PM
Edited by kandykane (157761) on 2009-06-01 14:10:49
^ Agreed, Webstar. It is about basic common courtesty. As I stated earlier, socially accepted respectful behavior. Aka - sociology.

So, I fail to see why this is on the religion board. It's not a topic exclusive to religion, because when it is placed there, it does come across as judgemental.

However, in any setting there may still be extenuating circumstances that the person may not feel like sharing with the group. So, it's basic common courtesy to assume that person has their reasons and is not being rude just to be rude. Of course, there are times when it may seem obvious, but still. Each circumstance is different and blanket statements rarely work.

EDIT: Very good point d4j. I'm with you. There are so many other things to get worked up over.

kk~
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By majeremember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jun 02, 2009 03:43 PM
kandykane wrote:

^ Agreed, Webstar. It is about basic common courtesty. As I stated earlier, socially accepted respectful behavior. Aka - sociology.

So, I fail to see why this is on the religion board. It's not a topic exclusive to religion, because when it is placed there, it does come across as judgemental.

kk~


Where do you think it should have been placed, if anywhere at all?
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By kandykanePremium member
On Tue Jun 02, 2009 03:57 PM
Edited by kandykane (157761) on 2009-06-02 16:31:03 h!!
It seems to me, I have seen this type of post in General, Recitals and Performing and even Movies and TV. As we don't have a Psychology/Sociology board, any of those would do.

But you DID specify church service, so....


EDIT: I still agree with D4j. There are so many more important matters to get worked up over. You gotta learn to pick your fights...

kk~
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By tapingirl
On Tue Jun 02, 2009 07:06 PM
This originally started as how to behave in church. Someone else added to behave socially. This was posted in the correct place, it is not the OP fault if people added a spin on it! But yes, if you should behave that way in public places..you should certainly behave that way in Church!
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By MrsFinnigan
On Tue Jun 02, 2009 08:52 PM
So why is a post on the basics of acceptable public behavior judgmental when it's about how to behave in church?

It's not like doing so is judging anyone's soul. No one is being condemned to hell.
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By kandykanePremium member
On Tue Jun 02, 2009 09:08 PM
Oh, come now, Mrs. F. You should know that judging people can be much more subtle that actually condemning them to hell. That's a bit extreme. Unless....

Well, I won't say it. That would be judgemental. ;)

kk~
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By MrsFinnigan
On Wed Jun 03, 2009 08:25 AM
It's no more judgmental than reminding people to be quiet and silence cell phones in a class or the multiple posts I've seen complaining about babies in movie theaters.
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service (karma: 1)
By kandykanePremium member
On Wed Jun 03, 2009 09:39 AM
Edited by kandykane (157761) on 2009-06-03 09:42:36
I disagree. Because the message from the church is conflicting. They are saying - "come worship with us", with a smile. With the subtext, "oh, but don't do this and don't do that", with a frown. That is disapproval, aka judgemental. Not welcoming and accepting and forgiving.

EDIT: Jesus said it best. "DO this in remembrance of me."
Not "DON'T do this in remembrance of me."

kk~
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By miraclefrmheavnmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Thu Jun 04, 2009 05:33 PM
I will chime in my two cents since I'm normally the thread killer around here anyway...

Majere was just stating her 'opinions' of the situation she had witnessed herself. It's not like she was demanding that all of these be done immediately.

There is a phrase in the Bible that states, "Love thy neighbor as thy self."

Well how on earth can a congregation member love they neighbor when the brats next to them are screaming or knocking toys all over the place? You can't. Your neighbor is showing you and the rest of the congregation an extreme disrespect in that aspect because the parent is not taking the child into another room and perhaps listening over the loud speaker to the service from that other room (say nursery).

I am not opposed to opening my mouth in a church service and asking that parents please move their child elsewhere. However, I just more give a dirty look to said child and parent and they get the hint immediately.

We are taught in our church that children are always welcomed in the service, however, the parents need to be responsible and if the kid makes a fuss, you immediately get them out into another room. It's only out of respect. Again, that 'respect' issue.

In regards to the person that made the comment about one of our freedoms living in the USA, we have no freedoms here anymore in case you haven't already noticed. People from other countries are coming to America stealing other people's jobs causing the American people to be starving. The government spies on every aspect of our lives - follow us, wiretap our phones, etc... It's called the Patriot Act folks! We have no more freedoms here in the USA, as half of the USA is unemployed. I wonder why???? Too many people coming here.

/end hijack

Back to the church issue, Majere those were some very good observations you brought up. I agree with a lot of them.
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By kandykanePremium member
On Thu Jun 04, 2009 05:47 PM
Edited by kandykane (157761) on 2009-06-04 17:48:22
Another example of the unchristian attitude that soooo turns me off of organized religion.

No freedoms at all? Then we don't have the freedom to be so uncharitable towards children in church.

kk~
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By miraclefrmheavnmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Thu Jun 04, 2009 05:54 PM
That is not an unchristian attitude. It is out of love and courtesy to your fellow neighbors that you would want to keep your child quiet or they would get reprimanded. (Just like if you played loud music in your apartment the police would be called and you would get a ticket for noise ordinance disturbances). Same concept, child is loud, they go to a different room until the service is over with.

I really like the one person's idea of keeping their child back for another service until they learned how to sit still. That is really positive enforcement instead of physically disciplining.

I grew up on physical disciplining. I grew up getting spankings. That method of yours of keeping the child for another service is a really good one.

I will have to share that with my friends that have children.
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By GingerPremium member
On Thu Jun 04, 2009 06:00 PM
^Positive reinforcement is rewarding good behaviour. Making your children stay for multiple services until they learn to sit through them silently, without moving, is NOT positive reinforcement.
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service (karma: 1)
By Saramember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Thu Jun 04, 2009 06:02 PM
I have to agree with KK, its the attitude of some church goers that puts me off. That, and theres always someone trying to tell you what to believe or someone being creepy because Jesus says its okay. Or something like that. People cant say one thing, then act another way, especially when it comes to a topic as sensitive as religion. Listen, people are people and they will have their flaws. If you have any issues with peoples flaws, then I suggest that you find a group of people who are oh so perfect like you and worship there. Heres a hint: You wont ever find a place like that- because no one is perfect. Its time to join the real world and either accept it or be a hermit.
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By miraclefrmheavnmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Thu Jun 04, 2009 06:54 PM
This place is absolutely futile to even discuss anything on. Absolutely futile cause you always get the smart remarks dissing people, karma being passed out like candy supporting those smart remarks, etc...

Case in point, love thy neighbor as you would love thy self.

Majere, great post and I liked your opinions.
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By kandykanePremium member
On Thu Jun 04, 2009 06:57 PM
People cant say one thing, then act another way, especially when it comes to a topic as sensitive as religion.


Ah, but they do. Far too often.

kk~
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service (karma: 1)
By MrsFinnigan
On Thu Jun 04, 2009 07:37 PM
kandykane wrote:

I disagree. Because the message from the church is conflicting. They are saying - "come worship with us", with a smile. With the subtext, "oh, but don't do this and don't do that", with a frown. That is disapproval, aka judgemental. Not welcoming and accepting and forgiving.

EDIT: Jesus said it best. "DO this in remembrance of me."
Not "DON'T do this in remembrance of me."

kk~


That's right. Churches say "Come and worship with us," not "Come and be rude and/or disruptive while the rest of us try to worship."

Jesus said, "This is my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. Do this in memory of me," not "send text messages to your buddies or feed happy meals to your kids while ignoring Me and taking way too much advantage of your neighbor's patience."

An invitation to worship is an invitation to worship, not an invitation to behave in an inconsiderate manner.

You can judge an action without casting judgment on a person. This is how we differentiate acceptable behavior from the unacceptable and we keep people from walking all over others.
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By Saramember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Thu Jun 04, 2009 07:57 PM
Yeah, but whoever said that everyone worships in the same way? Some people may be content with just being there, and minor distractions (sending/receiving a text takes all of 5 seconds) to themselves dont distract them from the whole message and the bigger picture. It shouldnt be anyone elses concern.
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By amarathPremium member
On Thu Jun 04, 2009 08:17 PM
Yeah, but whoever said that everyone worships in the same way? Some people may be content with just being there, and minor distractions (sending/receiving a text takes all of 5 seconds) to themselves dont distract them from the whole message and the bigger picture. It shouldnt be anyone elses concern.


Yeah, but since when is it hypocritical for a community of worship to want to communally worship? I do find texting during formal occasions to be inappropriate, and while I wouldn't say anything to anyone about it I, like other people, don't get to have our feelings negated just because it's easier that way. Obviously, there are occasions and there are OCCASIONS, just like there is texting and there is TEXTING, but I think the idea is the same.
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By irishdancer19
On Thu Jun 04, 2009 08:30 PM
reelirishgirl23 wrote:

I am Catholic,too.
About #1
How could someone be texting during Mass?
That is so disrespectful.


i agree!
i can't imagine texting during mass...
i'd feel REALLY guilty..lol..
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By Sumayah
On Thu Jun 04, 2009 08:35 PM
Isn't it something along the lines of remove the rafter from your own eye before you remove the splinter from your neighbor? If your eye causes you to sin, remove the eye... don't stumble others... Basically the Bible is telling us to look at ourselves and our faults and do our best to correct them so that our behavior and actions don't cause someone else to be distracted or fall away spiritually. It all goes back to respect - if I'm looking after myself so that I'm not being a distraction to others, and they're looking after themselves, then for the most part, there is no judgment because we are showing respect for others. No, no one is perfect. We all do things that irritate someone, whether we consciously know about it, but if we're taking care of ourselves and those who are in our family then it lessens the issue. But that's my 0.02c. :/
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By kandykanePremium member
On Thu Jun 04, 2009 08:58 PM
Edited by kandykane (157761) on 2009-06-04 20:59:35
Edited by kandykane (157761) on 2009-06-04 21:24:48 quotes
Edited by kandykane (157761) on 2009-06-04 21:26:29 question
Edited by kandykane (157761) on 2009-06-04 22:21:03 last one
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, no?

Yet, there are so many stone throwers. :O

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matthew 6:14 & 15

Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. Ephesians 4:32

Life to me appears too short to be nursing animosity or registering wrongs. -- Charlotte Bronte

They who forgive most shall be most forgiven. -- Josiah Bailey

We are all full of weakness and errors; let us mutually pardon each other our follies --Voltaire.

Forgiveness is of high value, yet it costs nothing. --Unknown

Live and let live!!

WHY waste so much energy and time in judging or disapproving of others??

HOW is it Christian, in any way, to do less than be forgiving??

kk~
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