Forum: Arts / Religion

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re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By MrsFinnigan
On Thu Jul 02, 2009 02:18 PM
You're assuming that I even consider the drug addict or the homeless person (who for all I know, may actually have made an effort to look and act their best for what is supposed to be a special occasion) in the same league with someone who deliberately chose to dress in a manner even he could have figured was inappropriate.

You are also assuming that the guy had never been to Mass before, came on his own rather than with a whole family, and therefore had no way of knowing any better.

As for stumbling blocks, I cited children as the obvious example. I do not consider exposure to pornography a teachable moment, but considering its addictive qualities and the way images can be seared even into an adult's mind and especially the more impressionable mind of a child, I think it's more like introducing kids to cocaine. I could tell them it's wrong, inappropriate, and that I hope this person will be inspired to show greater respect for worship, his neighbors, the gift of sexuality, et cetera, but it might not change the effect the image itself has. I was also thinking about people who may be recovering from sex or porn addiction who would prefer their worship not be disrupted by undue temptation, abuse survivors who might find such images traumatic, married couples who don't want to be tempted by images of people other than their spouses, chaste or outright celibate men and women who don't want to be tempted by such images, et cetera.,.

And yes, consideration for others is something believers need to learn- love for neighbor being one of the two greatest commandments, after all. If it always happened automatically when one found Jesus, there would be no sinners remaining in any Christian denomination. Repentance never happens automatically. It requires making a series of decisions every day. Even in the Bible, congregations were reminded to behave (and even dress) in a manner that would not cause scandal or disrupt others- something entirely unnecessary if behaving in a considerate manner happened automatically.

Finally, it's worth repeating that worship is a special occasion, and should be generally treated as such. As I attend Mass in a parish that includes a wide variety of age and ethnic groups, as well as a large population of poor, agricultural, and migrant workers, I am quite accustomed to seeing people's ideas of their most appropriate attire ranging from filthy (usually during spring planting or the harvest), to baggy jeans, baseball caps, chains, and very colorful tee shirts (often depicting Jesus or Our Lady of Guadalupe), to girls in the best dresses they can afford, which happen to be formals bought at a thrift store or made by friends. I am not accustomed to seeing pornographic depictions of women at church. Nor do I think most people are.

I can be glad someone is at Mass while wishing I didn't have such an image right in front of me at the same time.
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By popergerm
On Sat Jul 04, 2009 01:11 AM
YOu might not see stuff at mass, but you go to the churches of rome and some of the baroque romanesque churches there, well the paintings are quite sensous, not just the pain of sacrafice but the way figures are painted, great artwork or not, many are mostly naked, though not all the way compromised, anyway I agree with you Mrs. finnigan.

its for God to know but I can tell you there is a certain guideline about what is ok and what is not and showing tons of flesh is not ok, and a little common sence goes a long way.

signed Jeremy popergerm
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By kandykanePremium member
On Sat Jul 04, 2009 09:46 AM
Once again, someone's character is judged by appearances. I always thought it was what was on the inside that counted. :? But then, I know too many people who go to church just for appearances.

kk~
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By MrsFinnigan
On Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:31 PM
kandykane wrote:

Once again, someone's character is judged by appearances. I always thought it was what was on the inside that counted. :? But then, I know too many people who go to church just for appearances.


And I thought people often use how they dress as a means of self expression.
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By kandykanePremium member
On Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:10 PM
Edited by kandykane (157761) on 2009-07-06 23:15:24
Um... poverty? Some people do not own a nice wardrobe. You can buy tacky t-shirts at a garage sale for 25 cents.

In contrast, one of my favorite lines in Gone With The Wind is when Mammy tells Scarlett that she and Rhett are "mules in horse's harness". Meaning, you can dress up something (or someone) but they are what they are underneath. Telling.

So.. dress, good or bad, does not always imply character, good or bad. Some people just missed Dress for Success 101. I know a couple who are two of the finest people I have ever met and I have never seen him wear anything other than overalls and biker t-shirts. What he wears is not who he is. But, you have to look beneath the surface to see that. On the outside, he looks like a mean, tough, bouncer-type guy. On the inside, he is a light hearted, thoughtful, funny sweetheart. A perfect example of not judging a book by it's cover.

I would really have to see the image to say, but I think we can all agree the shirt in question was out of place, at best. But, kids are going to see shirts like that, unless they live in a box. They are exposed to worse at the mall. You have to explain things to kids no matter where they see it.

Every time I read this thread, I picture that Sunday school teacher who shook her finger at me and told me not to come to church without my tights on. Now... why this memory disturbs me is because she was telling me that my dress was too short. I was humiliated. Little did she know it was my only dress. And I did not own tights, nor could my mother buy them for me. I did not even own a coat that year.

EDIT: That one, as well as several other cruel memories that happened at church come to mind.

kk~
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By MrsFinnigan
On Tue Jul 07, 2009 01:38 PM
I already addressed the poverty issue. If you're going to accuse me of classism and judging people's character by the shabbiness of their clothes (something I in fact never do), you might do well to read my posts on the subject. I was not judging a person for his appearance. I was judging the appropriateness (or rather lack thereof) of a shirt with a pornographic message.

And then I added that nearly irrelevant bit about self-expression. I find it funny that in other cases when certain kinds of dress are expected, people use "self-expression" as an excuse to flout the standards in place. But when people express themselves inappropriately through their dress, suddenly we can't judge them based on appearances- on the way they choose to express themselves.
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By kandykanePremium member
On Tue Jul 07, 2009 03:48 PM
I suppose it could be seen as a double standard. I see it as a coin that has two different sides. Re: the Scarlett and Rhett quote. Dressed up or dressed down does not really change the matter.

I agreed the shirt was out of place. I did not agree with the assumption of the person's character.

I could go on but it all comes down to not judging a book by it's cover. If certain behavior and dress is expected of me in church, then it is fair to expect that I (or others) not be judged by the church folks if I make a faux pas.

kk~
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By majeremember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jul 07, 2009 04:13 PM
Interesting.

Honestly I don't care what people are wearing to church as long as it doesn't distract - meaning too short, too small clothing etc. Now that I've said that you will attack me saying what if that's all they have. I don't mean clothes that look a little too small I mean coming in looking like a night-walker (maybe not that severe, but you get the idea). But if someone does, I'm not going to say anything.
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By MrsFinnigan
On Thu Jul 09, 2009 03:11 PM
kandykane wrote:

I agreed the shirt was out of place. I did not agree with the assumption of the person's character.
kk~


And yet you made an assumption of my character which was not born out by anything I'd posted. I only said the shirt was offensive and that the choice to wear it was inconsiderate. I did not make an assumption of the wearer's character as you seem to think I did.

Now if he really were a male chauvinist perv who only thinks of himself (and I never ventured as far as to say he was) and he happened to choose a different shirt without any male chauvinist pervy message, he still may be a selfish male chauvinist perv in a better shirt. But at least he won't be dressed in a manner that is disruptive to other people's worship.
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By smileywomanmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Thu Jul 09, 2009 08:14 PM
1.Don't Text. I sat behind a teenage boy who just texted the entire time. You are in the house of God show some respect and don't text.

The acolyte sits up front during the service and was texting the ENTIRE service. I wanted to reach over and smack him!

2.Don't bring ten different toys for your child to play with. It's annoying. If you can't keep your kid under wraps with out toys something is wrong.


A couple of toys are ok, BUT it's imperative that they are quiet toys (i.e. plush, soft, non-wood). When the toy is wood and they bang it on the wooden pew? *head desk*

3.Don't leave your phone on. Turn it off people or don't bring it. You will live with out your phone for an hour.
Agreed. It's quite embarrassing.

4.Don't cut in line for communion. This is more for the Catholics but I saw three people who where sitting in the very back walk up past the ushers and got in line. Rude.


Seriously??? I've NEVER heard of anyone cutting in for communion before? Wow, unbelievable...

5.Don't leave right after communion. Once again more for the Catholics and once again very rude. After communion two rows of people who were in front of me were gone.


That reminds me of the rows of people that leave after there kid performs at church. They are only there to see their kid...not attend the service. OR they leave BEFORE the offering (so they don't have to contribute).

7.Don't show up late and walk all the way to the front few rows. It's very distracting.


That's funny.

8.Remember you are always seen. I was an alter server for about 10 years I could see everyone. If you fall asleep some one will see you.


And God is watching YOU too! :)
re: What NOT to do at Mass or ANY church service
By kandykanePremium member
On Fri Jul 10, 2009 09:55 AM
Truce, Mrs. F.

I did not mean you, specifically, rather SOME people. You were referring to a specific happening, I thought this was hypothetical. However...

Judging people is commonplace and subtle. It happens so often, some people don't realize they are doing it and when called on it are offended that they have been called judgemental. It happens to me, too. Really. Apparently, now.

kk~
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