Forum: Arts / Religion

Are These Animals Going to Hell?
By dust2dustmember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:19 PM
Locked by dust2dust (147104) on 2009-06-10 21:25:36 Off track
Unlocked by Odessa (22571) on 2009-06-10 22:38:48 this is actually quite an interesting discussion, so I am going to re-open it. I'd like to contribute :D
Frozen by Odessa (22571) on 2009-06-10 22:39:12 frozen

en.wikipedia.org . . .

In religions where homosexuality is considered unnatural and bad, ect, would these animals being going to hell? Just curious. I've never heard the whole "gay love is a sin!!!" type argument being used against any other species except our own, and i didn't know if it still applied.

24 Replies to Are These Animals Going to Hell?

re: Are These Animals Going to Hell?
By Believemember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:27 PM
Actually, I think the church teaches animals have no soul, therefore go to neither heaven nor hell. When they die, they do just that. Die. There is no after-life for them.
re: Are These Animals Going to Hell?
By d4jmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:36 PM
^Well, there are horses in heaven (Rev 19:14). But I don't know if those are earthly horses that went to heaven or if they are like horse angels or something... :)
re: Are These Animals Going to Hell? (karma: 1)
By majeremember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:46 PM
dust2dust wrote:

en.wikipedia.org . . .

In religions where homosexuality is considered unnatural and bad, ect, would these animals being going to hell? Just curious. I've never heard the whole "gay love is a sin!!!" type argument being used against any other species except our own, and i didn't know if it still applied.


I assume by "religions" you mean Christianity.
re: Are These Animals Going to Hell? (karma: 3)
By Kekoamember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:56 PM
If my animals (and animals in general) don't go to heaven, I most certainly don't want to spend eternity there.
re: Are These Animals Going to Hell? (karma: 2)
By moara
On Tue Jun 09, 2009 06:03 AM
Animals also quite regularly eat their own children.
Applying human morality to animals usually doesn't work. And vice versa.
re: Are These Animals Going to Hell?
By dust2dustmember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Tue Jun 09, 2009 07:57 AM
I assume by "religions" you mean Christianity.


And you assume wrongly. I don't know Hindu stance on the matter, nor do i know how wiccans or buddhists feel about such things. Get off your high horse.

Animals also quite regularly eat their own children


When is the last time you saw a horse eat its foal? What about gorillas? Dogs? Elephants?

The only animals i know of that will do this are fish, insects, rodents and Tasmanian Devils.
re: Are These Animals Going to Hell?
By glitterfairyPremium member
On Tue Jun 09, 2009 08:18 AM
I don't really believe animals go to "hell" per se, but I do believe they go to the same spiritual place (interim place?) that humans do :)
re: Are These Animals Going to Hell? (karma: 2)
By kandykanePremium member
On Tue Jun 09, 2009 08:49 AM
All dogs don't go to heaven? What?? ;)

kk~
re: Are These Animals Going to Hell?
By irishdaydreamermember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:01 PM
When is the last time you saw a horse eat its foal? What about gorillas? Dogs? Elephants?

The only animals i know of that will do this are fish, insects, rodents and Tasmanian Devils.


Actually, that's incorrect. Rabbits, guinea pigs, whales, lions, primates, dogs, elephants and cats all eat their young sometimes.

en.allexperts.com . . .
www-personal.umich.edu . . .
animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu . . .
www.dnp.go.th . . .(full)/1.9.pdf

Sorry. Just had to correct that point. :)

Now, on the subject of animals going to Hell. I really don't know. It's one of the subjects I'm not too sure of. I don't believe that animals have a soul, or at least, not in the same sense as humans do. I think animals have personalities, but I don't think they have hopes and dreams, and I don't think they have the same range of emotions as humans.

So, do they go to heaven? I don't know. That's for God to know, and for me to find out later.
re: Are These Animals Going to Hell?
By dust2dustmember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:24 PM
^ Seems like the sites you provided show mostly what i previously stated, in that it mostly happens with rodents and the like. Didn't know about the primates though, that's very interesting! But elephants? They don't have the gastrointestinal capacity to do so; they're herbivores. In fact, elephants show startlingly human characteristics; like visibly grieving for their dead, even going so far as to have grieving activities (journeying to the bones of a loved one every so often to gently touch the bones and caress them.)

In any case, we humans kill our young sometimes, too. Just had to point that out :P

As far as them having souls, by the christian definition, is suppose they wouldn't, but by my own definition they most certainly do. Kind of makes you wonder....

Anyhoo, my whole question about this was that some anti-gay-love arguments site that it's 'unnatural' and all that jazz. So, in theory, if these animals knew they weren't 'supposed' to do such things (said things being unnatural and not in normal behavior) then it would mean they have an understanding of god, giving them a soul , and sending them to hell.
re: Are These Animals Going to Hell?
By irishdaydreamermember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:28 PM
Edited by irishdaydreamer (182413) on 2009-06-09 12:30:25
^ OH! Woops! You're right. I was incorrect on the elephant thing, I read it wrong. It's just infantcide, not actually eating their young.

I stand corrected :P

After breeding Rabbits and guinea pigs for... 8 odd years, and a cousin who owns tons of dogs and cats, I have firsthand experience with animals eating their young. It's really sad :(
re: Are These Animals Going to Hell? (karma: 1)
By majeremember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jun 09, 2009 04:39 PM
dust2dust wrote:



And you assume wrongly. I don't know Hindu stance on the matter, nor do i know how wiccans or buddhists feel about such things. Get off your high horse.



I just assume from the use of the word "hell".

I don't appreciate the insult.
re: Are These Animals Going to Hell? (karma: 1)
By flower_facePremium member
On Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:17 AM
I'm not sure how mentioning that hell isn't a universal concept equals anyone being on a high horse, or a short pony for that matter. It's a simple statement of fact.

As mentioned, not all belief systems have a concept of "hell" , or of something resembling the Christian ideas of such place or state of being. Wiccan beliefs on the afterlife can vary, however, the concepts of karma and reincarnation don't appear to be uncommon in various traditions. ( Concepts of afterlife in other Neopagan religions would have to be looked at individually. ) Buddhism and Hinduism also have beliefs concerning karma and reincarnation . Buddhism has what could be termed "hell" states/realms but to my understanding it isn't eternal damnation, karma determines length of time in that state. It also doesn't seem anyone is sent there by a god or gods who have passed judgement , but instead ,again, brought about through karma. It is not an equivalent to the Christian conception of hell.

If a belief system has no hell, then it's positive or negative views on homosexuality in humans, animals , plants , or "whatevers" , wouldn't result in being sent to "hell". You cannot be sent to a place that doesn't exist in that religious or philosophical belief system. The question of who or what is going to hell, and/ or for what reasons, doesn't effectively apply to religions not containing a belief in hell.

* the terms karma and reincarnation are being used broadly and with western terminology merely to make my life easier by not getting into technicalities/ variances. Libraries have far more interesting and scholarly information on these concepts than I ever could offer here.
re: Are These Animals Going to Hell?
By LoveBallet2008
On Wed Jun 10, 2009 04:47 PM
Edited by LoveBallet2008 (186474) on 2009-06-10 16:51:01 Must be tired, someone already said what I said.
Oh sorry, someone already stated what I just wrote.
re: Are These Animals Going to Hell?
By dust2dustmember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Wed Jun 10, 2009 09:25 PM
Flower_Face; Thank you for that completely irrelevant information. As far as high-horse, i was referring to her seemingly condescending tone. I suppose i'm going to have to look up the terminology for every known religion before i make a thread.....one reason why i'm just starting to hate organized religion all together....

Anyway, everyone seems to be picking apart that statement more than answering the question itself. Thread closed.
re: Are These Animals Going to Hell? (karma: 1)
By Odessamember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:03 PM
Moderator Note
I've unlocked this thread because I think it is actually a very interesting topic.

There is to be no more discussion on whether or not dust2dust was referring specifically to Christianity when she mentioned "hell" in her original post.

Many different relgions oppose homosexuality for various reasons, and many have their own versions of hell. I do not believe that dust2dust was referring to Christianity exclusively. Perhaps it was remiss of her to call it "hell" specifically, so for the purposes of this discussion, let's assume she said "would these animals recieve punishment for participating in the sin of homosexuality?".

It's a matter of semantics, but if it means we can continue this discussion, then so be it.

Any further discussion on this subject will be removed, as it is off-topic.
End Moderator Note

I have a hard time believing that animals don't have souls. I have two cats, and as I watch them I become more and more convinced they have souls.
They love each other - they groom one another, and snuggle in to sleep together.
They have their own desires and needs - like getting fresh food and a warm spot near the heater, and climbing on board for some cuddles in the morning.
They are very independent, and have their own agenda - if I am giving one of them cuddles against his or her will, they will claw at me and struggle to get away, in order to continue doing what they were doing before I picked them up.
My cats may not have hopes and dreams like people do, but they have their needs, and wants, and their own ideas of how they want things to be.
I consider them to be two of the purest souls I will ever know. They don't know skin colour, or gender, or sexuality, or race, or socio-economic status, and will never discriminate because of these things. They will never hate someone for being black, or gay, or Jewish. They will never be exposed to the acts of violence humans carry out against each other every day. They just eat, sleep, cuddle, fight and groom each other, and, I assume, from their twitchy sleep, have pretty awesome dreams as well.

I don't think homosexual animals will face any punishment after they die, especially if there are religions who don't consider animals to have souls.
I guess to figure out if a homosexual animal will face punishment after they die, you'd have to figure out if the animal is part of a religion which forbids homosexuality as a sin. Which leads to the question, can animals even be religious? (Red Dwarf fans, Cloisterism doesn't count!!) Has anyone ever met a Catholic dog? A Buddhist Iguana? A Jewish Tiger?

Teehee - Now I am imagining a Tiger celebrating his Bar Mitzvah :D

Anyway, as Kekoa said, if there are no animals in heaven, then I am not so sure I want to spend eternity there either!

Erin.
::righteous babe::
re: Are These Animals Going to Hell?
By KayEllePremium member
On Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:15 PM
Well what religion dust2dust is referring to IS actually relevant, because not all religions consider homosexuality a sin or bad or whatever in the first place.
re: Are These Animals Going to Hell? (karma: 1)
By GypsieFreemember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:23 PM
this may get removed im not sure. so warning warning warning.

personally i feel that animals being homosexual proves that homosexuality shouldn't be considered a sin. Animals are hardly "choosing" to be homosexual.
re: Are These Animals Going to Hell?
By Liritmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:59 PM
KayElle wrote:

Well what religion dust2dust is referring to IS actually relevant, because not all religions consider homosexuality a sin or bad or whatever in the first place.


True, not all religions consider homosexuality a sin. But Christianity is not the only one that does. So rather than mincing words, take the broader view or move on to another thread.
re: Are These Animals Going to Hell?
By d4jmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:02 AM
Edited by d4j (104724) on 2009-06-11 00:05:38 clarification...
I read the wiki article and I'm fascinated - but I couldn't really tell if some animals form exclusive homosexual bonds? It sounded kind of like the penguins did. I mean, are some animals born homosexual and stay that way throughout life? The black swan examples, for instance, were they never mated to a female ever? Or those gay giraffes? Not expecting answers, just wondering aloud.

Some religions say that animals can't have souls no matter how intelligent or sensitive they are because they believe that what gives you a soul is your having been created in the image of God - and they believe that only applies to man. So in those religions animals can't be punished because they have no soul to begin with.
re: Are These Animals Going to Hell?
By Sumayah
On Thu Jun 11, 2009 12:19 AM
I have a very theocratic cat. He always lays on my open Bible when given the opportunity; I personally think he's reading it thru osmosis.

It is an interesting subject in that a lot is subjective, both conceptually of morally right/wrong, afterlife/reincarnation, definition of a soul... But really what makes me wonder is, is homosexuality merely a physical attraction/action for the same sex or is based on love? I'd assume a human, regardless of gender, is searching for love - the person who completes them. I've yet to meet a person who's never progressed past the point of booty calls and never wants a relationship of some kind. I feel that love plays a big part in the human aspect of homosexuality.

I'm not certain it does in animals. How much is establishing dominance? How much is affection? Is any affection or is it blind instinct? Is it the smell and size of the animal - a smaller female attracted to a larger female or a larger male attracted to a smaller male? Sure animals show affection, I'll tell you straight away my cat and my dog love me, but again how much is love in human terms verses pack leadership or provider roles? So though animals show homosexual tendencies, is it really homosexuality if there isn't the human sentiment of love? I dunno, I might be going off an unrelated tangent - if I am, feel free to mod this but that's where my brain went on the subject.
re: Are These Animals Going to Hell?
By MJeanette
On Thu Jun 11, 2009 10:10 AM
Kekoa wrote:

If my animals (and animals in general) don't go to heaven, I most certainly don't want to spend eternity there.


I know what you mean. Personally, I believe that at least some animals, such as loved pets, go to heaven, because I don't understand why they wouldn't. I mean, God made them too and God loves them too, and he's certainly powerful enough to give salvation to the animals as well as the people. But the bible never actually says that our pets are in heaven, I've looked, and it isn't very specific.

Anyway, I don't think that homosexuality, in animals or in people, keeps anyone out of heaven. I do believe it's a sin, but it's a sin that God can forgive just like he can forgive people who do other wrong things.
re: Are These Animals Going to Hell? (karma: 1)
By flower_facePremium member
On Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:13 PM
dust2dust: Your question specifically mentions "hell" and I answered based on a concept of hell and place of punishment. Whether or not other religions contain such a concept is absolutely relevant to the question as you phrased it. I directly and specifically pointed out some aspects of the afterlife beliefs of 3 religions you asked about, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Wicca. You seemed very defensive in your response, but as I said, I answered what was asked to the best of my ability as clearly as possible. If you found it rude, or irrelevant, that is your business, but it wasn't my intent.

No one said you should be an expert on world religions and philosophies, or the various terminology of each. However, usually when people have questions there is more information available in books, libraries, specialist websites etc, that would help answer those questions with more depth than a short response allows. Pointing anyone to those resources is not intended as insult, it is an intent to direct a person to where they can find more complete information and a better understanding of other belief systems.
re: Are These Animals Going to Hell? (karma: 1)
By Kekoamember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Sat Jun 13, 2009 10:49 PM
I believe that if there is an afterlife, it's just one of eternal peace...no heaven, no hell. So of course ALL souls go there. And I believe wholeheartedly that my animals DO have souls, as do all animals. I look at them, with their distinct wants, personalities, the pure love they give...I think they have far purer souls than any human could hope for.

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