What are the rules for being a judge and still competeing with the different organizations (DMA, NBTA, and TU)?

Can you be a judge in one organization and still compete with another organization (for example being a USTA judge and competeing with DMA)?

I was just wondering because I'd like to start working on becoming a certified judge, but I didn't know what the rules were, and I can't find any information in the rule books. I only compete with DMA, TU, and NBTA, so those are the organizations I am wondering about.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

Good luck to everyone competeing in any Nationals this month!

--Abby

Don't know about across organization but I know of at least one person in USTA who is a USTA certified level 3 judge and still competes....

*edited to add that just because you get your judges certification does not mean you necessarily HAVE to judge contests. You could do it a learning or personal enrichment for yourself and never judge a contest until you feel like it*

NBTA Rules:

G. Part-time twirling teachers are permitted to compete except when serving in an official capacity (clerking, starting, competing
against own students, etc.)
H. Judges and commercial teachers (teachers who devote full time to teaching baton twirling and/or own and operate a twirling
studio and advertise commercially) are not permitted to compete.

I know for sure that theres a NBTA judge that compets in USTA and at Twirl Mania

ChampionsBaton, is that just an NBTA judge cannot compete in NBTA competitions, or is that for all judges?

I can only speak for TU - once you've been a registered judge for one year you can no longer compete. I'm pretty sure that applies regardless of who you're registerd with, since TU pulls judges from many different organizations, but I can verify that for you.

I'm not sure. I was just quoting what the NBTA rules state. It did not have any further explaination.

USTA you can be a judge and compete. You cannot compete in any portion of a contest you are judging I.E. if you enter one national event, you cannot judge any portion of nationals, state etc. This makes sense. You could theoretically judge your own competition in other events. That would be a nightmare.

Is there any rules about judging a division that your child also competes in? This has happened to us on a number of different occasions with different judges. Obviously there child was not at the contest, so there weren't any issues with the judge having to judge her own daughter. However, the judge is judging girls who her daughter will be against at Nationals.

On that note, I also know that teachers can not judge their own students. But, what defines a teacher...if you have a spot lesson with a judge, is she now your teacher...if the judge teaches at your studios camp for a week, is she now your teacher? This is another situation that we have come across over the years and I am not sure where the line is and when it becomes unethical from the judges perspective.

batonmom99 wrote:

Is there any rules about judging a division that your child also competes in? ...Obviously there child was not at the contest, so there weren't any issues with the judge having to judge her own daughter. However, the judge is judging girls who her daughter will be against at Nationals.

I've never heard of any rule in NBTA regarding this. It could hinder getting some good judges if this were a rule.

batonmom99 wrote:

I also know that teachers can not judge their own students. But, what defines a teacher...if you have a spot lesson with a judge, is she now your teacher...if the judge teaches at your studios camp for a week, is she now your teacher?

Teaching at a camp (in-studio or not), to my knowledge, does not constitute a student-teacher relationship. A camp would have classes where new material is taught, but not integrated into a competition routine. However, if it is a "camp" for nationals training where one-on-one lessons are repeatedly given, then it is a different situation, or at least it gets into a gray area.

NBTA rules (or tradition?) say a student is a student for 6 months after leaving for another instructor, or, for as long as the routine(s) remain the same, whichever comes first (i.e. if a whole new routine is given 1 month after leaving the first teacher, then the first teacher can now judge the twirler in competition, otherwise, it is 6 months later). This suggests that it is about the construction of the routine and/or the time drilling the routine, that constitutes a true teacher, so, a spot lesson might not qualify. However, in recent years, at Nationals, team judges have had to sign forms indicating that they have not worked with any team (or any individual team member too I think) in the last 2 years. This is more restrictive than the rules (maybe there was an issue at one time?).

In the end, it is a bit gray (for NBTA), so any particular issue probably needs to be brought to the attention of contest director(s), the coach your child works with, and/or, a question sent to NBTA. To promote twirling and harmony in the community, further action should ONLY be taken if the conflict is so obvious that many people observe it (on their own, not after being told it is a problem).

chacha this is true but the person I am thinking of that is a level 3 judge and still competes actually judged a State contest this year (not her own State of course) and is currently competing at USTA Nationals.

Technically speaking, I don't think anyone she would have judged in that State is in her category but still - I think it opens up a gray area that maybe needs to be defined a little bit better.

I personally believe this person would make an outstanding permanent judge and I would LOVE for my daughter to get in front of her at a competition because I would feel very very secure that the score given by this person was just about as accurate as it was going to get just based on her own personal skill level.

But at the same time she also serves as an outstanding role model to younger twirlers and I would probably be sad to see her retire because I look forward to the routines she puts on the floor.

to touch on the other topic in this thread - I know at our local USTA contests a twirlers coach/judge will normally notify the contest director if there is a conflict of interest and either that judge will be replaced on that lane for that particular category or they will switch the event to another lane. NO ONE benefits when a judges integrity or ability to be objective is called into question....

In regards to judging an event and age division that your child competes in: there are usually enough judges at any given contest, that I believe it would be appropriate not to judge that dvision. It is not uncommon to have another judge replace a judge that may have a conflict of interest, so this circumstance should be no different.

In addition, my standard is that if I have given a private, one-on-one lesson, with a student, in any setting, with in the past year, then I do not judge that competitor/division.

jenniferwinslow: I understand your point. If I were a USTA judge and I am not, i would not Judge while still competing. Even though as a competitior at age 49 I am no threat to anyone legitimate. i just love to perform (and ocassionally win).
HA


I am starting another threat about USTA. Please respond if you are at Tuscon and on.
Thanks
Walter

Walter - I am too pregnant to travel but my daughter is in Tucson so I also have a very keen interest in what is going on out there!

I responded to your other thread about ways to get an idea of results until they are posted.

THANKS, good luck with the new baby. i will see you in Savannah next year.

If twirlguy is referring to Liane Aramaki you are mistaken. Liane does not hold a current NBTA judges license.

He may mean me. i twirl USTA and Twirltacular. But I do not have an NBTA license now, and have not had since I began twirling again in 2006, and if I ever sought an NBTA lic which is highly unlikely, I would not do so until I was through competing. I am 49, fixing to be 50 and want to be the first national champ that is a member of AARP. HAHAHA
walter

yes wavemom thats who I was thinking about , I went to a contest a couple years ago and I saw her judgeing a two baton group

From NBTA online rules:
G.Part-time twirling teachers are permitted to compete except when serving in an official capacity (clerking, starting, competing against own students, etc.)
H.Judges and commercial teachers (teachers who devote full time to teaching baton twirling and/or own and operate a twirling studio and advertise commercially) are not permitted to compete.


Although not explicit in the rules, I have never heard of a judge being able to revert back to competing (NBTA judge/NBTA competitor). Until maybe 5 years ago, one couldn't compete NBTA after 24 years old so once you were a judge, it would be unlikely that you would switch back before you aged out anyway. In NBTA, once you get your judging license, your renewal each year only depends on you sending in a renewal fee. There is no required continuing ed (although attendance at nat'l symposiums is strongly encouraged). So even if you don't mail the fee in one year, all it takes is sending it in and you are again a "current" NBTA judge. It does not seem appropriate that one could compete NBTA one month, then send in the renewal fee the next month and judge again. However, I would hope that any judge would remain impartial and fair under any circumstance.

not wanting to starts any trouble, I would LOVE to be judged say in local contests by, say a Liane Aramaki or a Jenny Hannah who still puts the baton in their handz on a daily basis. Not some people, who really havent twirled since the dawn of time. (or have never twirled at all, which really gripes my goat). My last response in this section.

I twirl every morning for two hours , its just a good work out and i hate to run. I just don't get into the compeateing thing anymore. I'm glad they still compete> I don't think I was slaming anyone sorry if it seemed that way.

chacha0349 wrote:

not wanting to starts any trouble, I would LOVE to be judged say in local contests by, say a Liane Aramaki or a Jenny Hannah who still puts the baton in their handz on a daily basis. Not some people, who really havent twirled since the dawn of time. (or have never twirled at all, which really gripes my goat). My last response in this section.

That is kind of what I was saying Walter. I know Jenny Hannah judged the NY State contest this year. I don't believe anyone in her age category competes in that state so no conflict that I can see. If she were to judge my daaughter I would feel really confident that the score she got was based on her TWIRLING and technique and not other things because Jenny herself is still in the game....

I dont really compete. I just perform and the chips fall where they may.

Kudos Walter! We always enjoy watching you compete (perform) at Twirltacular. My daughter's duet partner competed with you in 2-baton (or maybe it was hoop, can't remember) in the dreaded 16 and over group. Whenever my daughter comes back from a Twirltacular contest, she's always asked 2 questions.

1. How'd you do?
2. Was Walter there?

thank you rogbre. its nice to be noticed.