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re: Burger King To Sell Beer
By shmcdona
On Sun Jan 31, 2010 06:50 PM
I know. That was my point.
re: Burger King To Sell Beer
By kandykanePremium member
On Sun Jan 31, 2010 08:17 PM
So... what's wrong with something in the middle?

kk~
re: Burger King To Sell Beer
By ConUnaSonrisamember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Sun Jan 31, 2010 08:25 PM
What would you consider "in the middle" kk?
re: Burger King To Sell Beer
By kandykanePremium member
On Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:13 PM
For one thing, keeping alcohol out of kids playgrounds. I don't know why that is such a hard concept to grasp. :? In my state, alcohol is illegal at most public parks, if not all.

If BK wants to sell beer, they should discontinue the playgrounds.

kk~
re: Burger King To Sell Beer (karma: 1)
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:21 PM
The BK stores that sell alcohol will be rebranded as "BK Bar". And they won't have playgrounds.
re: Burger King To Sell Beer
By kandykanePremium member
On Mon Feb 01, 2010 01:25 AM
Edited by kandykane (157761) on 2010-02-01 01:26:23
^ I got that. All I'm saying is I don't want beer coming to the KID FRIENDLY BKs.
And I've given my reasons why.

kk~
re: Burger King To Sell Beer
By ConUnaSonrisamember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:16 AM
There's no need to be rude. Just because your opinion is in the minority doesn't give you a right to be snappy. Alcoholism NOT at the Burger Kings with playgrounds, so it's a moot point. I don't know why that's such a hard concept to grasp :D
re: Burger King To Sell Beer
By kandykanePremium member
On Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:26 AM
Edited by kandykane (157761) on 2010-02-01 11:27:59
Edited by kandykane (157761) on 2010-02-01 11:30:30
Edited by kandykane (157761) on 2010-02-01 11:58:42 last edit
I am not being rude. Sorry if you think so. :? I am just frustrated that some don't seem understand the separation of alcohol amid the presence of children is a good practice.

At the present time, BK plans to sell beer at the "concept" stores. I get that. Really. My concern is that the company practice of selling beer at these "concept" restaurants opens the door for the selling of beer at the regular neighborhood BK restaurants. I feel some have failed to understand that. If I have failed to communicate that clearly, I apologize.

Corporate BK may say, 'hey look at all the money we're making. let's sell beer at ALL the BKs'. And I think that is a bad, bad idea. I realize not everyone thinks so. I never said it was a popular opinion. Right and popular are not the same. An opinion does not have to be popular to be valid.

It is disturbing to me to see so many people think alcohol in the presence of children is a fine thing. It's not. I've seen the downside too many times to agree with that thinking. It's a slippery slope.

kk~
re: Burger King To Sell Beer (karma: 1)
By webstArmember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:07 PM
^I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to believe that some people out there think that alcohol in the presence of children isn't the epitome of all evil.

I've always been around alcohol. At family dinners/functions the adults (and a lot of times, the children in very small amounts) had wine, beer, spirits, whatever. I've always witnessed the adults in my life consume alcohol responsibly. To me, it instilled in me that alcohol isn't something taboo that you need to keep out of your life, and that it's entirely possible to consume it responsibly. Am I missing where there's something wrong with that?

KK, it's clear that you have some very personal reasons that are giving you this opinion, but it's important to realize that your personal experience doesn't (and shouldn't) dictate the rest of society.

I stand by my original opinion that if you're ok with alcohol being served in a Red Robin restaurant, where they host a TON of birthday parties and definitely cater to younger children, a BK Bar is no different.

And let's be really honest here - I'm WAY more concerned by how many kids' mouths are being shoved with burgers, french fries and pop than kids being around adults drinking responsibly.
re: Burger King To Sell Beer
By kandykanePremium member
On Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:25 PM
Edited by kandykane (157761) on 2010-02-01 12:26:57
I've always been around alcohol. At family dinners/functions the adults (and a lot of times, the children in very small amounts) had wine, beer, spirits, whatever. I've always witnessed the adults in my life consume alcohol responsibly. To me, it instilled in me that alcohol isn't something taboo that you need to keep out of your life, and that it's entirely possible to consume it responsibly. Am I missing where there's something wrong with that?


That message could very well have gone the other way. And may have to some of your siblings or cousins. Do you see that? The message that consuming alcohol is something you HAVE to have in your life. When, you really don't. Someday, when YOUR kid(s) ask hard questions about drinking and what is appropriate, you may find your opinion changes about what's good for kids.

I stand by my original opinion that if you're ok with alcohol being served in a Red Robin restaurant, where they host a TON of birthday parties and definitely cater to younger children, a BK Bar is no different.


And I stand by my opinion that I don't like it in those places, either. It sets a bad prescedent.

And, as I said previously, the nutrition, or lack thereof at BK keeps me away, too. But this debate isn't about fast food nutrition, it's about alcohol.

kk~
re: Burger King To Sell Beer
By shmcdona
On Mon Feb 01, 2010 01:38 PM
KK, do you think alcohol should only be available in bars? Or other places where there are only people of age? Would you ban alcohol from homes with children?

Just because you think kids seeing adults drink tells them that they MUST have alcohol, doesn't mean it is so. There are plenty of well-adjusted people who saw their parents drink and aren't alcoholics. i'm sure you are also going to point out that there are those that are alcoholics and that you attribute that to them seeing adults drink. I think you will find the first more likely than latter.

In the UK there are pubs that have gardens outside. Families will often go to these pubs, the kids will run around (sometimes there is even a small play area), the family will have a nice lunch and the parents will have a beer or glass of wine or not. Its just like a restaurant, but you see this as wrong. I see families (often many generations) having a nice meal, some interaction together and often times going for a walk in the park after. Nothing seedy, dirty or wrong in my opinion.
re: Burger King To Sell Beer
By Brittanymember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Mon Feb 01, 2010 01:49 PM
KK, just wondering, but do you think it's wrong to drink a glass of wine around children at a holiday meal?
re: Burger King To Sell Beer
By kandykanePremium member
On Mon Feb 01, 2010 02:13 PM
Laws aside, granted, it's all about making good choices. And conveying that example to our kids of all ages. We, as parents, have to be examples of making good choices to our kids. If the meal with an alcoholic drink involves driving afterwards, then NO, I don't think an adult should have an alcoholic drink at ANY meal (or without a meal) with kids around. (Or without, for that matter.) And that includes if you have GUESTS who would be driving after drinking. I have teen drivers. This is such an important message to convey to them! If you drove TO the restaurant, you have to drive AWAY from the restaurant. Or the home you are visiting.

I never want my kids to say, "well mom, you did, why is it wrong for us?"

See, the kind of thinking that one drink is okay gets blurred by the size of drinks. One drink, to some, can be a four ounce glass of wine or a spritzer, it could also mean a triple tequila sunrise. One beer is not always eight ounces. It is often 20 ounces or more. One drink does not always equal one "serving" of alcohol.

I also think it is a bad example for kids to see a parent drinking daily, even at home. It sends a message that it is a regular activity, instead of for special occasions.

Evil? I never said evil. I suppose that is an extreme description. Dangerous and risky is more what I think.

kk~
re: Burger King To Sell Beer
By shmcdona
On Mon Feb 01, 2010 02:24 PM
I never drink and drive. We have many friends in the neighbourhood and we have them over for dinner and they have us over. No driving involved. So how is it wrong for us to have a bottle of wine at our meal? I like the taste of wine. I drink it because I like it. I don't like pop or most juices for that matter. I can consume alcohol without it being a problem.

AS for Bk's selling booze, personally I could care less. Regulate it like any other establishment that serves alcohol and be done with it. After all its just a restaurant.
re: Burger King To Sell Beer (karma: 1)
By Shortgirl75member has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Mon Feb 01, 2010 02:28 PM
KK- here's another side of the coin that I have experianced. People who make alcohol SO hush-hush and away from children and teens can have it backfire. Since they never see anyone enjoying a drink (in moderation) at all, they seem to be more prone to indulging/ abusing it in secret. I had friends in high school who's parents were non-drinkers (religious reasons) and they were the first ones in line at the keg and seemed to spend more weekends throwing up and passing out on themselves then me- who grew up seeing her parents enjoy drinks. I never saw my parents drunk, but I did see them with wine and beer at dinner, watching a game, etc.

Just one example.

Some people can't drink. And I totally understand when alcoholism runs in families, people NEED to be more up front and honest with their kids.

I don't mind my daughter seeing adults enjoying spirits. We have plenty of social intercourse (hehehe) where we camp, or watch a race or hockey game, or celebrate the 4th where we drink. Do I want her seeing me slurring and trying to open patio doors with my bare arse? No.

I don't know if you hear me clucking or not- I guess I'm trying to say that it is such a crap shoot in a lot of ways, but open communication is probably the best bet within families.
re: Burger King To Sell Beer (karma: 1)
By kandykanePremium member
On Mon Feb 01, 2010 02:49 PM
Believe me, I am open with my kids about the risks of alcohol! It is by no means hush-hush. They know exactly my stance and they know why. They know they are at risk of becoming alcoholics because alcoholism does run in families. They don't want that for themselves. They have much they want to accomplish in their lives and they know that alcohol abuse can be a roadblock to their goals. From their own mouths, I have heard this. So, I feel I am doing a good job there.

I didn't say I never, ever drink in front of my kids. It's very definitely a rare occasion and either at home or spending the night somewhere with no driving after. At a hotel we are staying at or a home we are visiting, for example. At Christmas, all the car keys go in a basket. No one in my house is allowed to drive after drinking, even guests.

Neighbors walking over or taking a cab or a bus CAN be okay. As long as they are not swaying and putting themselves or others at risk. But that's still a grey area. You could still be given a public intoxication charge (if a cop happens by). It's still a risk.

A funny story...

I had to have a colonoscopy a few years ago and I had anesthesia for it. Coming out of it, I was woozy and slurring and just so out of it. My daughter thought it was funny because she had never seen me drunk. She refers to this event often.

They see their dad drunk often. And she made the comparison that that she had seen him totally out of it, but never me. I took pride in that. I felt I WAS being a good example for her, especially since my actions MUST counter balance what she sees in her dad. She refuses to take his phone calls, since she has had too many "slurring" calls from him. It is very upsetting to her.

I have to take a hard line on this. And my line is if you drink, you stay put after. Period. And it is safer if someone who has not been drinking is with you. For your protection and the safety of others.

The restaurants we visit most often don't serve alcohol.

kk~
re: Burger King To Sell Beer
By Cienmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Mon Feb 01, 2010 03:11 PM
Count me in as another one who's been around responsible alcohol use all her life. I was even allowed to try a sip of my dad's beer when I was like...7 (I hated it, and still am not a beer fan). I also have an alcoholic uncle, who's been that way for as long as I can remember. In my opinion, teaching moderation from the start is MUCH more effective than giving the example that alcohol is always always always a bad thing. I think hiding alcohol entirely in the presence of kids also sends the message that you expect them never to drink until they're allowed (not saying this is what you think, kk, but this is what that action says to me), which is completely unrealistic.
re: Burger King To Sell Beer
By kandykanePremium member
On Mon Feb 01, 2010 03:21 PM
I have to go out now, but I will happily return to clear up any points I have been unclear on.

Yes, I am a clucking mother hen. Lol. :P But raising my kids to be healthy, safe, well adjusted young adults is the most important thing in my life, regardless of who disagrees with my views.

later, kk~
re: Burger King To Sell Beer
By Heartmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Mon Feb 01, 2010 03:39 PM
I'm with Shortgirl. Alcohol was SO taboo in my family that the second I had access to it outside of home, I went all for it. I'd never so much as had a sip of beer, so the second I heard that there was a party going on, I got in. To the keg, the ever-mysterious jungle juice, shots, jello shots, ice luge, mixed drinks, girly drinks, bottled drinks, I tried everything. And you know what, I very rarely got drunk. I never threw up. I didn't do anything risky. I just got my buzz on and had a good time. Right now, at 21 years old, I have a six-pack hidden in my closet because I like the taste of a cold one after work, but my parents won't have alcohol in their house. Even if they would not be the ones drinking it. And yes, I mean singular, one cold beer. If I go to any of my friend's houses (or, for that matter, any other member of my family's houses) I am actually offered a drink with dinner. I present to you, exhibit A, way too uptight, my parents. ALCOHOL IS OKAY. (Oh, and before we freak about disobeyingmyparentsomg, I haven't actually had a chance to even pop open one, they're just collecting dust because I'm too lazy to move them to my friend's.)

Oh, and because I know nobody else wants to hop on the politically incorrect "no, duh!" train, I will step up. YES, you can have a drink with a full meal and be 100% fine and dandy to drive home. Legal limit is .08. Not 0. Repeat: .08, 0. .08, 0. There is a difference of .08. Uncle Sam and I say: knock it back, eat up, and drive!

Alcohol has been around since the beginning of time. It is obviously not about to cause the downfall of civilization. People really, really need to stop acting like it is. It is okay to drink alcohol. It is okay to drink alcohol in front of children. It is okay to drink a small amount of alcohol and operate a motor vehicle. IT'S OKAY.

Image hotlink - 'http://www.beerconspiracy.com/images/stories/Obama_Beer1.jpg'
re: Burger King To Sell Beer
By Brittanymember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Mon Feb 01, 2010 03:42 PM
I never want my kids to say, "well mom, you did, why is it wrong for us?"


But there are plenty of things that adults can do that kids cannot. That's part of life that cannot be hidden.

I also think it is a bad example for kids to see a parent drinking daily, even at home. It sends a message that it is a regular activity, instead of for special occasions


Why does it have to be a special occasion to drink? After class I like to have a beer...especially after the long late night classes. I honestly don't see anything wrong with regularly having a drink.
re: Burger King To Sell Beer
By Meganmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Mon Feb 01, 2010 04:10 PM
^Uh huh. I have a glass of wine with almost every dinner I eat because it complements the taste of the food that I cook, tastes great in any event, and is a relaxing way to enjoy a meal.

I have known many, many families for whom this is perfectly normal- my best friend's parents when I was small had an apertif, wine with dinner, and something after dinner as well at least three times a week and wine always, and we never once saw them behaving differently or anything like that.

For that matter, my father drinks a pretty substantial amount of beer with his buddies but and after work and whatever else and I have honestly never seen him make a fool of himself. Except one time when we were camping and he and his buddy were making the live lobsters we'd brought for dinner dance and staging a little lobster theatrical event. And that was funny, not embarrassing or dangerous or whatever.

As many of my friends have become parents, they have started bringing their children to birthday and holiday parties, and their kids have certainly seen Mommy and Daddy's friends drinking as they get older (and usually, either Mommy or Daddy will have a couple drinks too, although one spouse always stays sober, which is as it should be.) All they see is a bunch of people talking, eating, maybe dancing a little or playing games or whatever. No one is getting stupid, no one's behaviour is particularly different from the normal, and the little herd of kids in the kitchen playing with their toys is certainly not getting corrupted by alcohol.

Just sayin'. For every anecdotal "These kids turned out terribly because", there are a million times more "And everything turned out fine." Responsible use of alcohol is way more prevalent than alcohol abuse and I feel pretty confident saying that generally, alcohol abuse does NOT happen because a child watches people drinking. Some people are more likely to develop addictions, and those in families with alcohol abusers are more likely to develop problems, yes, so wouldn't it also make sense that children of people who enjoy drinking responsibly are more likely to, well, drink responsibly?
re: Burger King To Sell Beer
By kandykanePremium member
On Mon Feb 01, 2010 08:54 PM
Edited by kandykane (157761) on 2010-02-01 21:24:20 little fixes
Ok, here are just a few examples of why I feel as I do.

1. Brother's childhood friend. Drank to oblivion, stripped naked and jumped out of the back of a moving truck. He's dead.

2. Father. Drank himself into a rage, beat my mom and got arrested. No contact since I was 14 due to this and other abuses.

3. Friend's son. Went to a party, drank, drove home and flipped his truck. He's dead.

4. My friend. Had a fender bender, got out of her car to see about the damage and was run down by a drunk driver. She is severly disabled for life.

5. Another friend's daughter. Drank and drove and had a head on collision with another drunk driver. The other driver died. My friend's daughter was left with massive injuries, including a head injury. She went from being a star student headed to a top university on a full scholarship to having the math skills of a sixth grader. The only reason she was not charged is because the other driver had been drinking as well.

6. Future son in law. Busted for DUI after having two beers. He's facing about 5 to 10K trying to settle this (non) drunk driving charge that Heart describes as legal.

7. And of course, estranged husband. Who has been embarrassingly and dangerously drunk on more occasions than I care to count. Drove on many of those occasions, several times with our kids in the car. Was suspended from his job for showing up at work, a security guard smelled alcohol on his breath and he blew a 4.0 on a breathalizer at 5 am after not having drunk for 8 hours. Legal perhaps, but not kosher at a zero tolerance high security site.

I could continue ad nauseam. I have many reasons for feeling as I do. My kids are doing fine in their choices about alcohol, which is my primary goal, although I have cautioned them that other drinkers can pose just as great a risk to them.

I had a much more casual attitude about alcohol when I was younger. But I have seen it ruin so many lives, I now have a different viewpoint. If any of you have been lucky enough not to be exposed to any of the negative consequences of alcohol it is because you are just that. Lucky. Whether you were the drinker or someone else was.

kk~
re: Burger King To Sell Beer
By Meganmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Mon Feb 01, 2010 09:04 PM
^Okay, fine, so you don't have to drink, and you can choose not to expose your children to any alcohol. But everyone else gets to make their own choices. That includes whether or not they choose to take THEIR kids to a restaurant or fast-food place that serves alcohol. Taking a kid to a place that has alcohol doesn't make someone a bad parent. If you feel like it makes YOU a bad parent, that's your prerogative, but it's not necessary to project it onto everyone else.
re: Burger King To Sell Beer
By kandykanePremium member
On Mon Feb 01, 2010 09:16 PM
^ Fair enough. Although other drinkers DO pose a risk to others.

My kids have chosen not to drink until they are older. I fully support that. I encourage them to make smart choices. I do not ban them from drinking entirely.

Final point - there are plenty of places to obtain alcohol. Why do we need more?

kk~
re: Burger King To Sell Beer
By Ampersandmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Mon Feb 01, 2010 09:41 PM
Edited by Ampersand (72713) on 2010-02-01 21:46:50 I'm tired and sick, which is making my grammar suck. :P
Edited by Ampersand (72713) on 2010-02-01 22:30:33 o dear, and I still missed bits.
^Because why not get a piece of the money being thrown around constantly on alcohol? Just to drop the kids argument for a minute and talk about this from a more business like point of view, I don't see how this can really be bad for BK or a lot of other places to start serving a minimal selection of alcoholic beverages at a very small selection of locations. Alcohol is very easy to get, but it is one of those things that doesn't really adhere to supply vs. demand in the same way other goods do. There never really seems to be an over saturation point in the market with alcohol. People keep buying it, and businesses that sell it have an easy way to make lots of money. For the amount of people who may stop eating at a fast food joint because they start serving alcohol, that fast food joint would probably start making more than enough money to cover that lost revenue, just with the sale of alcohol. So to me it seems like a smart business move. Especially since it is only a couple stores, it gets tested out in the key demographics of people who they want to cater to, and then it might be tweaked and expanded on. I know we probably won't ever get one here in PA, because we have some super strict liquor laws, but we also are not the same type of demographic as Miami, so what works there might not work here. I don't think that makes either one right or wrong, just a matter of business. I highly doubt they are going to start planning to put others all over the country any time soon.

Besides, pretty much the only time friends and I have been to fast food places are after a long night of drinking and trust me, we have never been the only intoxicated customers there. I think for all the shenanigans that most fast food places put up with because of people like that looking for cheap greasy food, serving a beer to someone during the day is the least of their worries.
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