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Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 01:42 PM
Moved to Debates by Sumayah (204191) on 2010-11-19 17:36:03 Other people besides teachers would like to join the conversation. :)
Locked by i_am_me (202298) on 2010-11-21 21:29:50 Thread has gone south. Never intended it to be on the debate board. Not sure why it was moved.
Unlocked by Odessa (22571) on 2010-11-21 21:33:05 this discussion is not done yet. You may not lock a post simply because you don't like the responses you are given.
Frozen by Odessa (22571) on 2010-11-21 21:33:33 frozen.

Curious...with all of the news coverage over holiday travel and airport security, which would you choose if you were picked to go through the body scanner?

Would you opt out of the nude pic of yourself and have them grope you or let them x-ray your entire being?

235 Replies to Full Body Scan or Pat Down?

re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By d4jmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 02:00 PM
Neither. I'm staying away from flying for a while. The thought of either just makes me cringe.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By hummingbird
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 02:14 PM
It doesn't bother me either way, there's always been a chance that you might get a body search when flying, now it's just a known quantity and the security staff are just doing their jobs.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down? (karma: 1)
By i_am_me
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 02:22 PM
hummingbird wrote:

It doesn't bother me either way, there's always been a chance that you might get a body search when flying, now it's just a known quantity and the security staff are just doing their jobs.


I have been randomly selected for a pat down before. It didn't traumatize me.

I would definitely say that if I was traveling, I'd opt out of the naked image and go for the grope.

If I'm going to be made uncomfortable, then at least one other human is going to have to be made uncomfortable too. So go ahead. Touch away...and don't be a stranger...call me. ;)
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down? (karma: 2)
By Theresamember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 02:33 PM
For myself, I'm not really sure. I find the idea of the scan less troubling than the pat down, so probably that. In the name of my four year old, definetly the scan - after working so hard to impart the idea that nobody is allowed to touch him on his penis, suddenly letting someone touch his penis just goes backward to all of that. (And he knows that exceptions are made for mommy, daddy and the doctor, but even still...)
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By CarabosseKPremium member
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 02:45 PM
I personally don't care. I've never minded any of the security measures. I remember flying with my parents soon after 9-11 and my father refused to remove his shoes. I was so embarassed! I can see why some people think it's an invasion of their privacy, but I guess I'm just not a terribly private person. I'd much rather get any form of search over with quickly so that I can get to my destination sooner. I also hate being a burden to other people, so I would feel like I was holding up the line if I refused any sort of search.

Now if they start requiring a full nude patdown and cavity search for every passenger, I might protest ;)
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 02:46 PM
CarabosseK wrote:

Now if they start requiring a full nude patdown and cavity search for every passenger, I might protest ;)


I'm with you on this one. :D
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By tumblebugPremium member
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 02:53 PM
"Though the scanner images do not reveal what's beneath the skin's surface, the radiation they emit could potentially affect breast tissue, sex organs and eyes," said David Agard, an imaging expert at the University of California, San Francisco.

Yea I would be more worried about THAT than the 'modesty' concern of the scanners.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Theresamember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 02:54 PM
I guess I kind of look at it like people that have nothing to hide, hide nothing. I'm not doing anything wrong, so you do what you gotta do, and I'll do what I gotta do.

However, the idea of getting felt up in public, or having someone I don't know touch my kids junk, is kind of pushing my tolerance. :/
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 03:01 PM
Edited by i_am_me (202298) on 2010-11-19 15:04:25
Theresa wrote:

However, the idea of getting felt up in public, or having someone I don't know touch my kids junk, is kind of pushing my tolerance. :/


I don't think that they will pat down little people. I have a hard time believing too many minors are going to get a pat down.

When I got a pat down, being a female, it required a female to do it. They don't let men touch women. She was not rude or intrusive at all...of course, I didn't go into it with hostility. I was very chilled and I think people who may pose a real threat may not be so "whatever" about it. I think she probably could have been more intrusive if I went into it with a "Don't you dare touch me" glare.

It was non-eventful.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By tumblebugPremium member
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 03:01 PM
^Oh I completely agree. I would do the scanner over the pat down. I was just pointing out that the modesty concern is rather silly when there are bigger concerns out there.
Children are a hard one for me. Their sculls are thinner and allow more radiation to pass through. I guess my daughter just won't be flying and I don't plan on it either anyway so I guess it's not a personal issue for us.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down? (karma: 1)
By hummingbird
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 03:41 PM
Do you let your kids have Xrays? Either at the dentists or the doctors?

The radiation on these scanners is of a much lower dose than from an Xray machine.

If someone is mad enough to try to blow themselves up to take out a plane do you think they'll care about taking a child with them to complete that objective? No they won't, kids need to be checked as well or the new weapon of choice will become children.

I agree with Theresa, I have nothing to hide, neither do my children so either the body scan or the pat down is fine by me.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By tinydncr820
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 03:50 PM
I don't know, for some reason the body scan really creeps me out. I saw it (and went through it) the first time when I flew the first weekend of October - Boston (where I flew out of) had it but San Francisco did not when I was flying home. Now I guess they're at more airports? Anyway, I just went through it because I'd never heard about it before and was kind of shocked at the new procedure but after thinking about it, I'm not sure I want to go through it again. I'd personally rather a pat down. I think the pat down images they've shown recently on TV are quite over-exaggerated as I've never had a pat down THAT invasive at an airport. Anyway, I'm flying out again in December so we'll see what's going on then!

And I really don't think they put kids through either. Every time I've flown I've just seen kids go straight through the metal detectors. If someone straps bomb materials to a child, they've got serious issues.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By BrashDancer
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 03:52 PM
Theresa wrote:

I guess I kind of look at it like people that have nothing to hide, hide nothing. I'm not doing anything wrong, so you do what you gotta do, and I'll do what I gotta do.
:/



^ Agreed. If its for our safety I am okay with it. I have nothing to hide, so Im okay if someone with a computer sees a little peak. Thinking of how many people travel on a daily basis, seems like it be the same old same old...one body after another. Like the gyno- Seen one, you've seen them all.

I do think I wouldnt allow my child to have a pat down. I think, as someone stated above, that if someone wanted to blow themeselves up- they very well would use a kid as well. Thats why I think its good that there is more than one way.


Either way...I want to feel that every meausre is going towards my ultimate safety while Im flying, not just my comfort level.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Triskitmember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 03:57 PM
I fly a lot, nearly once/month and honestly I'm always prepared for the pat down when I walk through the security screening, it happens to me probably every 3rd time I fly. It's really not a big deal, I've never been touched in a way that made me feel uncomfortable and the person doing it has never been rude or aggressive.

I'm a type 1 diabetic and wear an insulin pump sometimes it triggers the the alarm, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes they just see a bulge in my pocket and ask me what's in there, I tell them and offer to show it to them and they either decline or swipe it with one of those special bomb detector swabs and run it through the machine, then I continue on my way. It never holds up the line because I just go with the flow and they security people are pretty quick at what they do.

Every airport is a little different, some have everyone take off their shoes, some only certain kinds of shoes. I just came through Heathrow airport in London and they only had people wearing boots or thick soled shoes take them off. Ballet flats and most mens shoes were ok. At JFK a few weeks prior everyone had their shoes off, flips flops, boots, whatever it didn't matter.

I'd opt for the pat down, yes we are exposed to radiation all the time but the more you can limit exposure the the better I would suppose.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Heartmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 04:41 PM
have them grope you

It's not groping. It's not like they grab your boobs or a guys' junk. A pat-down is only to feel objects under clothing. A frisk feels down the length of your leg to see if you have any weapons secured there, including your ankles, which is where a leg holster would be. The officer never goes near your genital area. They swipe their hands over your torso, never going near your boobs, to see if you have a gun stashed there. They might check your waistline too, because that's another common place where guns are kept. They'll feel down the length of your arms. That's it. It's pretty damn non-invasive.

Here are some videos of correct pat-downs:

TSA


Police demonstration


Explanation of how to do a pat-down



As for the body scans - I've had x-rays of my teeth, my neck, my back, and I've had an MRI of my head and neck. You get radiation from your computer, cell phone, TV, and microwave - just to name a few. Electronic signals are passing through your body every second of every day. Walking through a little scan for two seconds at the airport isn't going to kill you.

Oh, and as for the images?

Image hotlink - 'http://cache-03.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/4/2010/11/usmarshal_0082_layer_18_fixed.jpg'
Granted, that's from the millimeter wave, not a backscatter machine. I haven't been able to find a source stating how many backscatter machines the TSA has.

Radiation risks?
The National Council on Radiation Protection and Measurement (NCRP) has reported that a traveler would need to experience 100 backscatter scans per year to reach what they classify as a Negligible Individual Dose. The American College of Radiology (ACR) agrees with this conclusion. By these measurements, a traveler would require more than 1,000 such scans in a year to reach the effective dose equal to one standard chest x-ray. Source


We'll all be fine.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 04:51 PM
Well personally if I were traveling in the US I would not fly.

There have been more than enough warnings out as to how dangerous this full body scan can be and I would never go with that. I could care less what shows up on the scanner.

I am highly against the methods of pat down also. I understand a standard pat down and have had it done on many separate occasions which I am not opposed to but to have someone touching under your breasts and your crotch is not appropriate. This bothers me more than anything though in two ways. First no one though through that there are more then girl boy relationships in this country. Secondly and my huge objection to this is the kids. We teach kids to tell us when something is wrong or if someone touches you in a bad place and now we are standing there watching as our child is (in their mind) violated. That is upsetting to me.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Triskitmember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 05:03 PM
^ I've never seen this type of pat down happen in the airport and I've never had it happen to me. Yes I would not want that type of pat down but that's not what they do. It's like the video posted above..a quick and gentle swipe over your arms and legs, maybe waistline and ribs. I've never had my breasts, genitals or buttocks touch during a pat down at the airport.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By ndn_dance
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 05:07 PM
Ok I haven't really been paying attention to the new airport security measures...not sure if its the same in Canada as the states....but I am flying to the states on Monday. So does everyone have to do the pat down/body scan thing now or just those "selected"?
Since I am pregnant I would have to do the pat down (I assume). But is it really a naked picture that the security sees? That does seem creepy...although someone groping me isn't appealing either!
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 05:09 PM
Heart wrote:

have them grope you

It's not groping. It's not like they grab your boobs or a guys' junk.


The videos that you had posted are not the new TSA body pat downs that they use in the airports. They are a standard pat down used by police and before this was instituted about a week ago, however, they do in fact feel around your breasts and a man's groin area as well. I doubt you will find a video of the current scans but I will try.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down? (karma: 1)
By Sumayah
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 05:20 PM
Edited by Sumayah (204191) on 2010-11-19 17:32:48 stuff
Ugh. It's just so hypocritical. I wouldn't do either. The government can't regulate what we see on TV and tell us that seeing breasts and genitals is bad and censor our words and then say it's perfectly fine to essentially be groped and seen naked by a total stranger. I don't care how many naked bodies they've seen, I don't care that it's blob on the screen... it's my body and they haven't seen my body naked and it's my blob on the screen. I also refuse to try on garments in stores that have dressing room surveillance - I don't care that it's being monitored by same sex individuals, I feel it's an invasion of my privacy. So I won't be flying. Not until the government can make up it's mind. Either nudity is fine or it's not; I'd be less concerned if the government hadn't made such a big stink over that whole Janet Jackson Superbowl fiasco. It doesn't get to be both. We can't be censored within an inch of our moral platitudes and then told we have to submit to a invasive pat down or screening or else. Sorry government. And yes one has directly nothing to do with the other except that I find it extremely hypocritical that they want us to swallow and accept that it's bad to be seen naked in public but in the same breath it's perfectly fine to be scanned naked at the airport. It pisses me off.

*edit
From what I've been reading, the pat down is much more invasive using palms and fingers, not the backs of hands.

www.msnbc.msn.com . . .
www.tampabay.com . . .
consumerist.com . . .
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Triskitmember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 05:24 PM
I'm really curious now, what is going on. Perhaps I'm lucky because I haven't experienced this yet, but I just started searching online to see what all the debate was about... some very interesting and shocking stuff out there.

Like I said before I fly often and have not personally experienced this as of yet. I have had pat downs but they did not involve the touching of any sensitive areas, just arms/legs and waist, the waive a metal detector wand over your breast area because the under-wire in your bra can set off the metal detectors sometimes.

I think it's over the top to scan naked pictures of people and grope them like it's a drug bust. I do see you can purchase options for getting through security faster and in a less invasive manner...who gets the money from this? Interesting!
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 05:32 PM
Edited by OkinawaDancing (223602) on 2010-11-19 17:34:26
Triskit -

You probably have never experienced it because it's new. I think it was implemented last week. . . I could be a bit off here.


I am with Sumaya though on this too though. It's ok when they say it's ok and it's not when they say it's not. The government likes to make rules up as they go along and what it is doing is literally making the citizens unsettled.

re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By d4jmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 05:35 PM
According to NPR (don't have time to find the link) the pat-downers are allowed to use the front of the hand (not just the back like before) and also fingers. They are allowed to take a single finger and swipe it from the front of your crotch all the way through to the back. They can also take that single finger and swipe under each breast.

I'm not against security measures, so my keeping away from both the scan and the pat isn't a political statement or stance, I just do not want to be touched and I don't want my body image looked at (yea, I know it's in another room) and I don't want it saved on a server. That's just me.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 05:45 PM
d4j wrote:

According to NPR (don't have time to find the link) the pat-downers are allowed to use the front of the hand (not just the back like before) and also fingers. They are allowed to take a single finger and swipe it from the front of your crotch all the way through to the back. They can also take that single finger and swipe under each breast.

I'm not against security measures, so my keeping away from both the scan and the pat isn't a political statement or stance, I just do not want to be touched and I don't want my body image looked at (yea, I know it's in another room) and I don't want it saved on a server. That's just me.


I am right there with you. There are so many other ways to travel I would not put myself in a position where I know that someone who could be anyone is making me uncomfortable. I don't think it has much to do with politics for a lot of the people who are upset about this it's about being intrusive and invasive.
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