Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/19/2010 13:42:34
Curious...with all of the news coverage over holiday travel and airport security, which would you choose if you were picked to go through the body scanner? Would you opt out of the nude pic of yourself and have them grope you or let them x-ray your entire being?
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By d4j
On 11/19/2010 14:00:37
Neither. I'm staying away from flying for a while. The thought of either just makes me cringe.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By hummingbird
On 11/19/2010 14:14:23
It doesn't bother me either way, there's always been a chance that you might get a body search when flying, now it's just a known quantity and the security staff are just doing their jobs.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/19/2010 14:22:17
It doesn't bother me either way, there's always been a chance that you might get a body search when flying, now it's just a known quantity and the security staff are just doing their jobs.
I have been randomly selected for a pat down before. It didn't traumatize me. I would definitely say that if I was traveling, I'd opt out of the naked image and go for the grope. If I'm going to be made uncomfortable, then at least one other human is going to have to be made uncomfortable too. So go ahead. Touch away...and don't be a stranger...call me. ;)
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By CarabosseK
On 11/19/2010 14:45:38
I personally don't care. I've never minded any of the security measures. I remember flying with my parents soon after 9-11 and my father refused to remove his shoes. I was so embarassed! I can see why some people think it's an invasion of their privacy, but I guess I'm just not a terribly private person. I'd much rather get any form of search over with quickly so that I can get to my destination sooner. I also hate being a burden to other people, so I would feel like I was holding up the line if I refused any sort of search. Now if they start requiring a full nude patdown and cavity search for every passenger, I might protest ;)
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/19/2010 14:46:58
Now if they start requiring a full nude patdown and cavity search for every passenger, I might protest ;)
I'm with you on this one. :D
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By tumblebug
On 11/19/2010 14:53:18
"Though the scanner images do not reveal what's beneath the skin's surface, the radiation they emit could potentially affect breast tissue, sex organs and eyes," said David Agard, an imaging expert at the University of California, San Francisco. Yea I would be more worried about THAT than the 'modesty' concern of the scanners.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/19/2010 15:01:18
However, the idea of getting felt up in public, or having someone I don't know touch my kids junk, is kind of pushing my tolerance. :/
I don't think that they will pat down little people. I have a hard time believing too many minors are going to get a pat down. When I got a pat down, being a female, it required a female to do it. They don't let men touch women. She was not rude or intrusive at all...of course, I didn't go into it with hostility. I was very chilled and I think people who may pose a real threat may not be so "whatever" about it. I think she probably could have been more intrusive if I went into it with a "Don't you dare touch me" glare. It was non-eventful.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By tumblebug
On 11/19/2010 15:01:38
^Oh I completely agree. I would do the scanner over the pat down. I was just pointing out that the modesty concern is rather silly when there are bigger concerns out there. Children are a hard one for me. Their sculls are thinner and allow more radiation to pass through. I guess my daughter just won't be flying and I don't plan on it either anyway so I guess it's not a personal issue for us.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By hummingbird
On 11/19/2010 15:41:01
Do you let your kids have Xrays? Either at the dentists or the doctors? The radiation on these scanners is of a much lower dose than from an Xray machine. If someone is mad enough to try to blow themselves up to take out a plane do you think they'll care about taking a child with them to complete that objective? No they won't, kids need to be checked as well or the new weapon of choice will become children. I agree with Theresa, I have nothing to hide, neither do my children so either the body scan or the pat down is fine by me.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By tinydncr820
On 11/19/2010 15:50:38
I don't know, for some reason the body scan really creeps me out. I saw it (and went through it) the first time when I flew the first weekend of October - Boston (where I flew out of) had it but San Francisco did not when I was flying home. Now I guess they're at more airports? Anyway, I just went through it because I'd never heard about it before and was kind of shocked at the new procedure but after thinking about it, I'm not sure I want to go through it again. I'd personally rather a pat down. I think the pat down images they've shown recently on TV are quite over-exaggerated as I've never had a pat down THAT invasive at an airport. Anyway, I'm flying out again in December so we'll see what's going on then! And I really don't think they put kids through either. Every time I've flown I've just seen kids go straight through the metal detectors. If someone straps bomb materials to a child, they've got serious issues.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Triskit
On 11/19/2010 15:57:45
I fly a lot, nearly once/month and honestly I'm always prepared for the pat down when I walk through the security screening, it happens to me probably every 3rd time I fly. It's really not a big deal, I've never been touched in a way that made me feel uncomfortable and the person doing it has never been rude or aggressive. I'm a type 1 diabetic and wear an insulin pump sometimes it triggers the the alarm, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes they just see a bulge in my pocket and ask me what's in there, I tell them and offer to show it to them and they either decline or swipe it with one of those special bomb detector swabs and run it through the machine, then I continue on my way. It never holds up the line because I just go with the flow and they security people are pretty quick at what they do. Every airport is a little different, some have everyone take off their shoes, some only certain kinds of shoes. I just came through Heathrow airport in London and they only had people wearing boots or thick soled shoes take them off. Ballet flats and most mens shoes were ok. At JFK a few weeks prior everyone had their shoes off, flips flops, boots, whatever it didn't matter. I'd opt for the pat down, yes we are exposed to radiation all the time but the more you can limit exposure the the better I would suppose.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Heart
On 11/19/2010 16:41:03
have them grope you
It's not groping. It's not like they grab your boobs or a guys' junk. A pat-down is only to feel objects under clothing. A frisk feels down the length of your leg to see if you have any weapons secured there, including your ankles, which is where a leg holster would be. The officer never goes near your genital area. They swipe their hands over your torso, never going near your boobs, to see if you have a gun stashed there. They might check your waistline too, because that's another common place where guns are kept. They'll feel down the length of your arms. That's it. It's pretty damn non-invasive. Here are some videos of correct pat-downs: [youtube]iNizwJ57Ub0[/youtube] [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNizwJ57Ub0]TSA[/url] [youtube]Hou1-XBY3L0&NR[/youtube] [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hou1-XBY3L0&NR]Police demonstration[/url] [youtube]WNvqSFf2Fiw[/youtube] [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNvqSFf2Fiw]Explanation of how to do a pat-down[/url] As for the body scans - I've had x-rays of my teeth, my neck, my back, and I've had an MRI of my head and neck. You get radiation from your computer, cell phone, TV, and microwave - just to name a few. Electronic signals are passing through your body every second of every day. Walking through a little scan for two seconds at the airport isn't going to kill you. Oh, and as for the images? Granted, that's from the millimeter wave, not a backscatter machine. I haven't been able to find a source stating how many backscatter machines the TSA has. Radiation risks? [q]The National Council on Radiation Protection and Measurement (NCRP) has reported that a traveler would need to experience 100 backscatter scans per year to reach what they classify as a Negligible Individual Dose. The American College of Radiology (ACR) agrees with this conclusion. By these measurements, a traveler would require more than 1,000 such scans in a year to reach the effective dose equal to one standard chest x-ray. [url=http://www.acr.org/SecondaryMainMenuCategories/NewsPublications/FeaturedCategories/CurrentACRNews/archive/StatementonAirportFullbodyScanners.aspx]Source[/url][/q] We'll all be fine.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/19/2010 16:51:19
Well personally if I were traveling in the US I would not fly. There have been more than enough warnings out as to how dangerous this full body scan can be and I would never go with that. I could care less what shows up on the scanner. I am highly against the methods of pat down also. I understand a standard pat down and have had it done on many separate occasions which I am not opposed to but to have someone touching under your breasts and your crotch is not appropriate. This bothers me more than anything though in two ways. First no one though through that there are more then girl boy relationships in this country. Secondly and my huge objection to this is the kids. We teach kids to tell us when something is wrong or if someone touches you in a bad place and now we are standing there watching as our child is (in their mind) violated. That is upsetting to me.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Triskit
On 11/19/2010 17:03:47
^ I've never seen this type of pat down happen in the airport and I've never had it happen to me. Yes I would not want that type of pat down but that's not what they do. It's like the video posted above..a quick and gentle swipe over your arms and legs, maybe waistline and ribs. I've never had my breasts, genitals or buttocks touch during a pat down at the airport.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By ndn_dance
On 11/19/2010 17:07:33
Ok I haven't really been paying attention to the new airport security measures...not sure if its the same in Canada as the states....but I am flying to the states on Monday. So does everyone have to do the pat down/body scan thing now or just those "selected"? Since I am pregnant I would have to do the pat down (I assume). But is it really a naked picture that the security sees? That does seem creepy...although someone groping me isn't appealing either!
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/19/2010 17:09:04
have them grope you
It's not groping. It's not like they grab your boobs or a guys' junk.
The videos that you had posted are not the new TSA body pat downs that they use in the airports. They are a standard pat down used by police and before this was instituted about a week ago, however, they do in fact feel around your breasts and a man's groin area as well. I doubt you will find a video of the current scans but I will try.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Sumayah
On 11/19/2010 17:20:02
Ugh. It's just so hypocritical. I wouldn't do either. The government can't regulate what we see on TV and tell us that seeing breasts and genitals is bad and censor our words and then say it's perfectly fine to essentially be groped and seen naked by a total stranger. I don't care how many naked bodies they've seen, I don't care that it's blob on the screen... it's my body and they haven't seen my body naked and it's my blob on the screen. I also refuse to try on garments in stores that have dressing room surveillance - I don't care that it's being monitored by same sex individuals, I feel it's an invasion of my privacy. So I won't be flying. Not until the government can make up it's mind. Either nudity is fine or it's not; I'd be less concerned if the government hadn't made such a big stink over that whole Janet Jackson Superbowl fiasco. It doesn't get to be both. We can't be censored within an inch of our moral platitudes and then told we have to submit to a invasive pat down or screening or else. Sorry government. And yes one has directly nothing to do with the other except that I find it extremely hypocritical that they want us to swallow and accept that it's bad to be seen naked in public but in the same breath it's perfectly fine to be scanned naked at the airport. It pisses me off. *edit From what I've been reading, the pat down is much more invasive using palms and fingers, not the backs of hands. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40257031/ns/travel-news http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/airlines/article1134716.ece http://consumerist.com/2010/08/tsas-enhanced-pat-down-procedure-lets-their-fingers-do-the-searching.html
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Triskit
On 11/19/2010 17:24:52
I'm really curious now, what is going on. Perhaps I'm lucky because I haven't experienced this yet, but I just started searching online to see what all the debate was about... some very interesting and shocking stuff out there. Like I said before I fly often and have not personally experienced this as of yet. I have had pat downs but they did not involve the touching of any sensitive areas, just arms/legs and waist, the waive a metal detector wand over your breast area because the under-wire in your bra can set off the metal detectors sometimes. I think it's over the top to scan naked pictures of people and grope them like it's a drug bust. I do see you can purchase options for getting through security faster and in a less invasive manner...who gets the money from this? Interesting!
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/19/2010 17:32:26
Triskit - You probably have never experienced it because it's new. I think it was implemented last week. . . I could be a bit off here. I am with Sumaya though on this too though. It's ok when they say it's ok and it's not when they say it's not. The government likes to make rules up as they go along and what it is doing is literally making the citizens unsettled.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By d4j
On 11/19/2010 17:35:41
According to NPR (don't have time to find the link) the pat-downers are allowed to use the front of the hand (not just the back like before) and also fingers. They are allowed to take a single finger and swipe it from the front of your crotch all the way through to the back. They can also take that single finger and swipe under each breast. I'm not against security measures, so my keeping away from both the scan and the pat isn't a political statement or stance, I just do not want to be touched and I don't want my body image looked at (yea, I know it's in another room) and I don't want it saved on a server. That's just me.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/19/2010 17:45:14
According to NPR (don't have time to find the link) the pat-downers are allowed to use the front of the hand (not just the back like before) and also fingers. They are allowed to take a single finger and swipe it from the front of your crotch all the way through to the back. They can also take that single finger and swipe under each breast. I'm not against security measures, so my keeping away from both the scan and the pat isn't a political statement or stance, I just do not want to be touched and I don't want my body image looked at (yea, I know it's in another room) and I don't want it saved on a server. That's just me.
I am right there with you. There are so many other ways to travel I would not put myself in a position where I know that someone who could be anyone is making me uncomfortable. I don't think it has much to do with politics for a lot of the people who are upset about this it's about being intrusive and invasive.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Triskit
On 11/19/2010 17:56:53
^ Exactly, it's a major invasion of privacy and done without probable cause.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By RattyPatty
On 11/19/2010 19:24:13
I quite prefer to not be blown up on an airplane, so I don't mind the extra minutes it takes for a scan. My airport has had these machines for a while now, so I've done them a few times. I've also been pat down numerous times, and I find that the 30 seconds of feeling uncomfortable is worth the sense of security. The pictures aren't very detailed and the workers look through thousands daily, so I'm pretty sure they don't care about your seemingly naked body. Have you ever been to a beach, or a swimming pool? Have you ever worn a swim suit or a leotard? I don't think it's too much different. In the end a human body is a human body. You may feel uncomfortable for a minute or two, but generally when travelling, you forget about this once you face the task of searching for your terminal and etc. I also don't understand why this is causing such dissension in terms of privacy. We're living in a world where people post their feelings and thoughts and many other personal things on the internet, yet get upset about the possibility of a smudgy x-ray picture.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Heart
On 11/19/2010 19:34:56
Exactly, it's a major invasion of privacy and done without probable cause.
Wrong on both counts. First of all, this is not an "invasion of privacy." When a Court is deliberating a case like these, they do what's called a "balancing test." First of all, the "right to privacy" is not an enumerated right (listed in the Constitution); it can be a fundamental right in some cases. The court considers whether the law in question can be rationally related to a legitimate and compelling government interest. If the interest of the government outweighs the importance of the right in question, the law in question is upheld. First of all, 78% of Americans agree with these new policies; at least, with the full-body scanners. [url=http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2010-01-11-security-poll_n.htm?imw=Y]Gallup Polls[/url] Second. The government has a compelling interest in not having their airplanes, civilians, and federal buildings blown up. It far, far outweighs citizen's rights to walk through some detectors and have their baggage searched. Third. In Michigan v. Sitz, the US Supreme Court held that checkpoints, random stops, etc. are perfectly legal. In New Jersey v. TLO, the Court held that law enforcement officers do [i]not[/i] always need a warrant or even probable cause. They do require "reasonable suspicion," which is a much lower standard. "Border searches," which include airport searches, do not even require this standard, allowing for random searches; for case law, see United States v. Flores-Montano. Such searches are exempt of reasonable suspicion simply because they occur at the border (or in an airport, etc). Quite simply, the integrity of the airways is more important than your not wanting to be frisked, or exposed to a brief dose of radiation, or having someone see your Barbie-like nude form. And 78% of America agrees. FURTHERMORE.
The videos that you had posted are not the new TSA body pat downs that they use in the airports. They are a standard pat down used by police and before this was instituted about a week ago, however, they do in fact feel around your breasts and a man's groin area as well. I doubt you will find a video of the current scans but I will try.
I read the descriptions and I don't mind it one bit. Have you guys considered WHY the searches are the way they are? Think about it. If you were smuggling drugs, weapons, or other forms of contraband, where on your body would you hide it? Girls would tuck it in their bras. Both guys and girls would slip it in their underpants. As I previously stated, the waistline is an extremely likely place for weapons to be held. So is the inner thigh. I personally know someone who taped drugs on their inner thigh and smuggled them on a trip. I've been searched in such a manner - strip searched, actually - yes, even had to hold my undies out - and it didn't bother me at all. The people searching me had seen it dozens of times, and I fully understood why it was taking place. It was for my own good and I was okay with that. I think [url=http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/john-tyner-tsa-security-check-sexual-molestation/story?id=12153388&page=4]this article[/url] explains it best:
A supervisor comes over, explains the groin check and tells Tyner, according to the cell-phone recording: "If you're not comfortable with that, we can escort you back out and you don't have to fly today."
If you make the choice to fly on an airline, [i]for your own good,[/i] that's you're going to have to deal with to get on the plane. If you don't like it, don't fly. I also agree with this:
He blames the TSA for doing a poor job of explaining the new searches to the public. "The dilemma they are in is if they explain too much, they risk scaring the public," he added. "I think it's a small liberty to give up for the safety of all."
If the public understood WHY the TSA needs to feel their groin, they'd shut the hell up about it. That's why people hide things there - they don't think anyone is going to check. The only way to protect against that is to do a body scan or to search. And it's not sexual molestation because it's not sexual. I don't feel raped when I go for my pelvic and breast exam. I didn't feel sexually exploited when I was being searched. It's their job and they do it with a professional demeanor. People just don't think like criminals. To protect our security, the government has to. Honestly, I wish every form of public transportation was given the same amount of security airlines are given.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By DefyingGravity
On 11/19/2010 19:37:01
I asked the radiologists at work about the safety concerns and they said the amount of radiation was nothing compared to what I'm exposed to at work during portable XRays, lol. They said I could go through the new TSA machine thousands of times and it would probably equate to a normal couple weeks at work... I guess that's what I get for being around portable XRay machines all the time! As for what they see... I couldn't care less if some random person sees the outline of my boobs. Who cares?!
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By DancinDiva2005
On 11/19/2010 19:51:07
I feel that if someone wanted to sneak something onto a plane, they'd find a way to do it, regardless of scans and all that. I feel that a lot of this "extra security" is just for show. Again, if someone was going to sneak something onto a plane, they'd find a way to do it. And I definitely agree with the poster who said that children also need to be searched as well because if not, children will be the new carriers. Also, I feel that if we continue to be "OK" with all these new security measures, the bar will just continue to raise. How many "security measures" are we going to be willing to accept?
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Sumayah
On 11/19/2010 19:58:13
Sorry, I actually don't go to the beach or the pool, I don't wear bathing suits. And you can't see that kind of detail through a leotard. Yes a body is a body, but really, is this necessary? Frankly I can't describe how unhappy and pissed off I'd be if I had to go through that. Maybe I'm petty, but I have I hard enough time flying as it is (I have a major fear of flying) and if I had to either choose being seen naked on a monitor by random person X or getting felt up by security person Z, I'd probably burst into tears, rip my ticket up, and go home. Yes, it would be that big a deal for me. It's hard enough forcing myself on the plane yet alone having to deal with that. I'd almost rather my plane explode than have to put up with all the security measures just to get on it. As I said earlier this subject pisses me off.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By DancinDiva2005
On 11/19/2010 20:13:50
^Haven't seen those images before. The ones I've been seeing look like this: But either way...uh. No thanks.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/19/2010 20:18:22
I think they are a little more revealing than the pic that was provided in the earlier post. This is one I found online. TMI. I'm still voting for the pat down.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By d4j
On 11/19/2010 20:32:39
It's not wrong, Heart. It may not be a legal 'right', but for me as a citizen, but it is PERSONALLY an invasion of privacy for me. I'm not stating that I have a right to it in the legal sense, but I certain have the right of choice, meaning, I won't be choosing to undergo either procedure. Also:
If the public understood WHY the TSA needs to feel their groin, they'd shut the hell up about it.
^This statement is condescending. Most people, including myself, understand completely why they have to search the way that they do and in the locations that they do. It doesn't mean I have to like it. As I said, I have never said I'm AGAINST this, I'm just not willing at the moment to go through it myself.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By RattyPatty
On 11/19/2010 20:58:46
Yes a body is a body, but really, is this necessary?
Why would the TSA spend millions of dollars putting in these machines if it was not necessary? Unfortunately people do smuggle in weapons and explosives, and the TSA has a duty to protect travelers. A lot of incidents have been prevented by the security measures of the TSA, and when problems do arise, the blame is almost always on TSA and airport personnel for not having high enough security. If dangerous events can be prevented with this new technology, it would almost be wrong to not use it. Thankfully flying is not required and it's completely the choice of the individual to buy the ticket and proceed with checking in and security checks.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/19/2010 21:07:13
There is SUCH a public outcry, I have to wonder if it won't further hurt an already ailing airline industry.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Kekoa
On 11/19/2010 22:11:26
Flying is a privilege, [i]not[/i] a right. Thankfully this board has been pretty tame, but I've seen people absolutely up in arms over this. Guess what? Nobody's making you fly. It's not a mandatory activity. I fully understand the issues people have with these new procedures (and I don't necessarily disagree), but many people are being jerks about it. I've been reading online that Wednesday is going to be an "official" day to protest it by refusing both procedures at the airport, and that's SO unfair to all the other passengers who don't want to spend three times as long going through security. That being said, I'm fine with both procedures but am flying on Thursday and will choose the scan. However, if I got flagged for a pat down I wouldn't be bothered. If I was in the tiny percentage of people who were searched inappropriately, I'd report the agent and sue. However, the chances of that happening are tiny.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/19/2010 22:20:35
It's not wrong, Heart. It may not be a legal 'right', but for me as a citizen, but it is PERSONALLY an invasion of privacy for me. I'm not stating that I have a right to it in the legal sense, but I certain have the right of choice, meaning, I won't be choosing to undergo either procedure. Also:
If the public understood WHY the TSA needs to feel their groin, they'd shut the hell up about it.
^This statement is condescending. Most people, including myself, understand completely why they have to search the way that they do and in the locations that they do. It doesn't mean I have to like it. As I said, I have never said I'm AGAINST this, I'm just not willing at the moment to go through it myself.
I agree it is condescending. I am very aware of what the TSA is trying to do and so is most of the Americans that are opposed to this. The fact is that as americans (yes I am an american citizen) need security but more security does not mean better security. What people need to understand is that the acts of people like the shoe bomber and the under ware bomber is to do just what they have done, put the country in a panic and change the ways that we do everything. You also need to remember Heart, we are not talking the right to not have to open my suitcase we are talking about the right to not be touched in "sensitive" or "intimate" areas as well as not have your naked self on a screen. There is a HUGE difference here. Wearing a bathing suit to the beach is not the same as this. I agree with Dance Diva the issue here is how much are we willing to accept. No shoes, no drinks now full body scans. How long before it's strip searches for everyone? Safety is one thing, however, there is a line. In the US a lot of people tend to think that without these measures people are going to blow planes up all the time and "how can we live without it" meanwhile there are a number of other countries that don't manage to have to go to these lengths to achieve the high level of security that they have so what is that US doing wrong here? I think we are trying to show off and using our "free nation" to do so. FYI: The gentleman who put the whole scanner movement into motion (whose name is escaping me right now, I will have to update this post when I get it again) is the same person who is part of the panel legal responsible for moving these products. . . consistence? KeKoa- I do also understand where you are coming from and I agree it is not a right to fly. What I disagree with is the new guilty until proven innocent stance that is being taken. Most of the people passing through airport security and many times those who are flagged for a scan/pat down are not criminals and are not trying to do anything except get where they are going so in my opinion treating everyone as if they are a criminal is unacceptable. I certainly agree if you don't like it, don't fly which is where I stand right now but I just don't think that it's fair to put people in that position.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By DancinDiva2005
On 11/19/2010 22:27:25
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40234326/ns/travel-news ^Says the pat-downs are more invasive and the TSA officer is now able to use their hands near the genitalia and breasts. It also shows a list of all the US airports with the scanners currently in place. Also, how are the airports getting funding for these machines? I understand the reasoning, but just curious where the money is coming from. These can't be cheap...
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/19/2010 22:32:25
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40234326/ns/travel-news ^Says the pat-downs are more invasive and the TSA officer is now able to use their hands near the genitalia and breasts. It also shows a list of all the US airports with the scanners currently in place. Also, how are the airports getting funding for these machines? I understand the reasoning, but just curious where the money is coming from. These can't be cheap...
I know right?
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By DancinDiva2005
On 11/19/2010 22:39:25
Oh niiiiiice...front page of msn.com http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40278427/ns/travel-news "TSA forces cancer survivor to show prosthesis" and then further down that same article:
Sharon Kiss, 66, has a pacemaker, but also has to fly often for her work. "During a recent enhanced pat-down, a screener cupped my breasts and felt my genitals," she said in an e-mail to msnbc.com "To 'clear my waistband' she put her hands down my pants and groped for the waistband of my underwear. "I expressed humiliation and was told 'You have the choice not to fly.' "
Edit: According to the video at the bottom, at the beginning of the new year, [b]pilots won't have to go through the new scanners or pat-down procedures[/b] because of the massive amounts of complaints from them.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/19/2010 22:47:59
KeKoa- I do also understand where you are coming from and I agree it is not a right to fly. What I disagree with is the new guilty until proven innocent stance that is being taken.
Tagging on to your thought, there are also plenty of people who have to fly because of their jobs. They may be able to opt out of recreational travel, but not for work. I also read that they will in fact do the "enhanced patdown" on all children 13+, that don't go through the scanner. THAT, I'm not okay with. If I opt out of being seen naked, that's my choice. But if I don't want my kid seen naked OR have his groin swiped by some random man's palm/fingers, then there will be issues for me and air travel. The pat down that I had in the past did not include fingers in my crotch. That's a whole other ball of wax.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/19/2010 22:51:42
^That is unbelievable. It's just another example of how this was not thought out. There are so many issues that could come up when there is something like this that is put into place. This was not thought through it's as simple as that.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/19/2010 23:07:33
Certain religious groups are already demanding special treatment and Napolitano, when asked a direct question about whether these demands would be accommodated, answered that the situation was evolving. If it was truly necessary to conduct these searches there would be NO chance that any group would possibly receive special treatment.
Yes, I have read that there is a movement to elimnnate Islamic women in hijabs from having to go through the scanners or have the pat down. If cancer survivors are going to start to have to send their prosthesis through the the xray belt, that will be a whole new constituency of people pissed beyond pissed. I will bet that after this holiday travel season the flying public is going to get very vocal and we may see some modifications in the near future. The pilots union already was vocal enough to have them be able to bypass both the scanner and the pat down, effective immediately.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By DancinDiva2005
On 11/19/2010 23:12:11
This clearly is an invasion of privacy. It is NOT narrowly drawn. Certain religious groups are already demanding special treatment and Napolitano, when asked a direct question about whether these demands would be accommodated, answered that the situation was evolving. If it was truly necessary to conduct these searches there would be NO chance that any group would possibly receive special treatment. When we have people on a terrorist watch list and we do not put them on a list for higher screening at airports-the entire process is a joke.
Amen. Just because you have some sort of religious problem with it doesn't mean you should be free of the humiliation that everyone else has to go through. That's how we get problems in the first place..all these exceptions and loopholes that people find. That's another reason why I have a problem with this. Those same people who found a way out of it before all of this are going to find a way out of it again..and it's going to end up just being your regular Joe Shmoe who has to go through the scanners. Edit: When I was in Europe and the UK this summer, I don't recall any countries over there having this level of "security". Security is in quotes because I don't think it actually adds a whole lot of extra security..as I mentioned a few posts up. I think a lot of it is for show.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/19/2010 23:15:15
[q=i_am_me]
Certain religious groups are already demanding special treatment and Napolitano, when asked a direct question about whether these demands would be accommodated, answered that the situation was evolving. If it was truly necessary to conduct these searches there would be NO chance that any group would possibly receive special treatment.
Yes, I have read that there is a movement to elimnnate Islamic women in hijabs from having to go through the scanners or have the pat down. If cancer survivors are going to start to have to send their prosthesis through the the xray belt, that will be a whole new constituency of people pissed beyond pissed. I will bet that after this holiday travel season the flying public is going to get very vocal and we may see some modifications in the near future. The pilots union already was vocal enough to have them be able to bypass both the scanner and the pat down, effective immediately.[/q] So that the flight attendant union. The thing that stands out most to me, however, is how incredibly serious this matter must be which is pressing us to change security if we are giving so many people free tickets out of the checkpoints. We can pretend the reason is for this or that but I at least feel that with all of the "oops I'm sorry" moves is just showing that this is more about pushing boundaries with the american people then protecting them.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By kandykane
On 11/19/2010 23:19:45
Quoted from this article linked by Sumayah on page 1 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40257031/ns/travel-news
The American Association for Nude Recreation said it was offering a "Certificate of Achievement" for anyone who "proudly supports TSA body scanning measures."
Well, somebody found some humor in the situation. :? I'm glad I'm not flying soon. I sure hope procedures are adjusted before I have to fly again. Otherwise, I'll just have to pray I don't get 'selected' or if I am unfortunate enough to be selected, I'll grit my teeth, do the scan and collect my certificate. kk~
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/19/2010 23:21:51
[q=DancinDiva2005]
This clearly is an invasion of privacy. It is NOT narrowly drawn. Certain religious groups are already demanding special treatment and Napolitano, when asked a direct question about whether these demands would be accommodated, answered that the situation was evolving. If it was truly necessary to conduct these searches there would be NO chance that any group would possibly receive special treatment. When we have people on a terrorist watch list and we do not put them on a list for higher screening at airports-the entire process is a joke.
Edit: When I was in Europe and the UK this summer, I don't recall any countries over there having this level of "security". Security is in quotes because I don't think it actually adds a whole lot of extra security..as I mentioned a few posts up. I think a lot of it is for show.[/q] I can speak for Japan and Korea. They are not like that here. Not even close.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By DancinDiva2005
On 11/19/2010 23:23:04
^^KK, Well, they're required. Either the scan or the pat-down. If you refuse the scan, then you get the pat-down. Yeah, I'm hoping this is all sorted out before I have to fly again too. :(
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By teenydanseur
On 11/19/2010 23:24:59
the new enhanced pat down DOES allow breasts and genitals to be touched, I think a lot of people are confusing the old pat down with the new "enhanced" one. I also have to say, I am sure this will be hard for a lot of victims of sexual assaults and molestation to have to swallow unnecessarily. As someone that WAS a victim of an assault, I don't even like sitting to close to men on the train, and the idea of being put in this situation is already giving me anxiety. here is an interesting article for anyone to read, http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/744199---israelification-high-security-little-bother israel has a LOT more security threats than we do in the US and yet, they haven't had an attack in their airports in a long time, it takes 25 minutes MAX to go through their airport security, and they don't do ANY touching of a person. a lot of their security comes through specially trained security making a point to talk to people in the airport, and looking for queues that something is amiss. you don't need invasive security to have effective enhanced security. Also some people have been noticing that a lot of the people pulled to go through the scanners, have been young attractive women http://www.universalhub.com/2010/how-avoid-tsa-screenings-least-providence the comments in the above thread have additional examples.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By hummingbird
On 11/19/2010 23:50:53
The big question here is do you wanna be safe on planes or not! Because the air authorities can ditch all of these measures if you really feel that your privacy is too important to stop another plane high jacking. Personally I would rather that a proper search had taken place before I got on the plane instead of having to make the cell phone calls that those people made on the 9/11 flights. Just sayin!
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/20/2010 01:42:04
We should be looking into why terrorists are attacking us.
What we need to understand is the intent of the terrorists. . . to terrorize us. They set things into place to make us scared and feel that we need to do things that compromise the things our nation stands for. Really, it's not about death it's about scare tactics and they are doing a good job (let's be honest). The thing to also need to remember is that there is always risk in every situation. What we too often forget is that there is what happens when we put too many cooks on one pot. It is a proven fact that better security is not the direct result of more security just look at the other countries out there that are not doing things like this. If they want to do something to make people more safe they need to be more meticulous with what they already do not keep layering in systems and new policies. 9/11 was unfortunate and rare we need to be vigilant but not idiotic.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By LoriCook
On 11/20/2010 02:31:28
If someone professionally touching my body or giving me a scan keeps my plane from exploding in the air or running into a building I am 100% for it. Our past security screenings haven't kept bombs off of planes-it has been a matter of luck (and alert passengers) that we haven't had another 9/11. We need to get as secure as technology will allow. We needed to do it 9 years ago. We also need to start educating our children that airport pat downs are a part of flying safety and the only people allowed to touch them in that way is the doctor and the TSA screener. The amount of radiation in the full body scan is equal to the radiation you get flying at 30,000 for THREE MINUTES and is much less than a dental x-ray. Unless you are a frequent flyer it shouldn't pose any problem. The people doing the pat downs are not "groping" they are not getting their jollies, they are protecting us from those who would kill us. They are sure to get loads of flack from passengers and I feel quite sorry for them having to do this task.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By DancingBeaner
On 11/20/2010 02:54:56
I don't care either way. Just whatever would get me to my gate the fastest! These people are just doing their jobs and it's not a problem for doctors to give people physicals or see naked human beings. You can bet 100% that the individuals performing these tasks will have extensive background checks and extensive training in this area, so there so be no worry that one of the security officers aren't going to cop a feel. Also, do people not realize that they will be doing this day after day to thousands and thousands of people? I can guarantee you that there will be very few people that will ever stand out in their mind from their entire career.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By angelfish10
On 11/20/2010 02:59:17
^Totally agree. I'm doing whichever is the fastest option! I don't want to stay at TSA any longer than I have to. Besides, it would be kind of arrogant of me to assume that my body is anything special to the agent who either sees my scan or gives me the pat down. They do this literally all day long, so the fact that they're touching those parts of my body probably isn't even a big deal to them. They're not doing it with malicious intent, so I really don't care. Besides, I've had dance teachers touching my thighs, hips, back stomach, feet, ankles, and almost everywhere else my whole life. I'm not saying any of them ever stuck their hand in my crotch or did anything else inappropriate, but I guess I'm just used to people putting their hands on me in a decidedly non-sexual way.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/20/2010 07:08:40
^^My sister was separated from the family when she was about 6 or 7 while my mother was collecting items from the x-ray thing and the rest of us were waiting to go through the machine. They basically stopped the rest of us and pushed my mother along while also pulling my sister aside to get a pat down. Of course it was just a basic one back then which was devastating enough can you imagine if it were what they are doing now? Not to mention how freaked out and helpless the rest of us felt. I mean can you see where she is going? no she is behind a wall, the TSA agents are holding me back and my mother was waiting for her up ahead so . . . ??? It's so true, some people don't know how to handle kids and honestly I am sure they are probably told that they should not be treating them any different than anyone else which in my honest opinion is a problem with the system. As much as I understand kids also need to be screened too I think that this is one of those situations where you need to be trained to handle it differently not to compromise any of the security but because to these kids it's like you're kidnapping them even for a brief moment in time. That's scary! You are absolutely right, there are a lot of things that happen that they do not leak the public. There are also things that they leak to other media outlets but don't leak them to those of you in the US (which I have seen believe it or not). I think the biggest gripe, at least mine, comes down to a comment that you made about getting more qualified people to run the machines. I believe that technology and methods are only as effective as the people running them. You can catch more bad guys with one set of trained eyes than you can with three sets of untrained eyes and a lot of technology. I feel that America depends a little too much on technology when there should be a bit more focus on the proper usage and methods. Other countries such as Japan (I can not speak for Europe or others) are an illustration of this.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/20/2010 10:30:09
Good for you that you've never been sexually assaulted and don't know how humiliating it is for a stranger to touch you in an unwanted way. Just don't do it at the expense of marginalizing abuse victims who can't think about being touched by a stranger without being physically ill.
This opens a whole other bag of worms. What about all of the women who are still traumatized by sexual abuse from their past? PSTD trigger, anyone? Or what if you're like Triskit who is diabetic and will ALWAYS have to go through a vaginal stroking to fly? All people that have prosthetics that set off the alarms or metal implants, or in a wheelchair, will ALWAYS have to endure a full testicle grabbing, vagina stroking pat down. They can't get the nude-a-tron pic. What if you have a 15 year old daughter that triggers the alarm and has to endure it? In full public view. What if you have on a Kotex? If the scanner finds that suspicious, will you have to have a pat down? Do you have to produce a dirty Kotex to prove it's a Kotex? What about the orifices that they can't feel? What if you jam some explosive up your vagina? It's still going to get through. People have been using convenient body cavities to smuggle drugs for years. What about trains, and boats? Can't any idiot effectively terrorize all of NYC by sending multiple bombers into several stations and blowing themselves up in Battery Park, Time Square, the Bronx, Brooklyn, Wall Street and the village all simultaneously? I'll say it again. There will be much outrage when the general public flies much less and "downs" the airline industry. People are saying "it's a privilege to fly". Yes it is. And it also a privilege for the airlines for us to CHOOSE to fly. We can take other transport. I see a giant butting of heads between the TSA and the airline industry in the very near future. The loss of capital to the already ailing airlines will be a HUGE problem.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By reel_faerie85
On 11/20/2010 12:55:21
If I'm going to be made uncomfortable, then at least one other human is going to have to be made uncomfortable too. So go ahead. Touch away...and don't be a stranger...call me. ;)
Made me giggle..I'm with you on this one...
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/20/2010 14:03:54
I think you are exaggerating by calling it borderline sexual assault. It is same sex giving you a pat down and they are professionals. Do you feel borderline sexual assaulted by your doctor?
She gets to choose her physician. You also choose to get a physical. I know someone who was so ashamed of her weight, she refused to get her yearly. She just opted out of getting naked. Having fingers run along your genitals in full public view is not something most would choose. Definitely not by a stranger, whether professional or not. I won't go into a debate on whether the gazillion TSA new hires with GED's qualify as professional. If the answer is "well then, don't fly", I think that's precisely what is going to happen and the airlines will feel the backlash.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By nic_dancezone
On 11/20/2010 14:27:13
I have only briefly read over other comments and would normally not post but having had experience in security in the UK through sporting events and festivals I feel I need to put my penny's worth in. 1. Only a man can touch a man and woman touch a woman. End of story. 2. If someone refuses to religious reasons eg Muslim woman where I have worked there has been a policy that there is separate room near by where the search can be completed in private. 3. After being the only female security at a festival I was searching the same 1,000 women over 3 days. It was condition of entry to be body searched every time they went into the main arena due to illegal drugs. It was my job, I had been trained to perform the search and was on public view. Most women were fine with being searched because they knew was a reason. 4. Pat down should use the back of the hand mainly and should not 'grope' sensitive areas. When having body pats performed on me or performing I have followed the under wire of the bra and that is it. 5. It is done in a professional manner (even though I was in a muddy field), being polite to the customer, answering their questions as to why it was being done etc. 6. Staff in security must have a licence in UK which involves training and a police check. Airport staff are under more checks in the UK. 7. There are terms and conditions to everything in our lives and that is same for flight tickets - every airline and airport has their terms of carriage which will include the security. Personally I would rather have pat down. Nic
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Megan
On 11/20/2010 14:41:53
Honestly, I'm completely over it. I've just accepted that any time I want to travel, I'm going to have to accept every ridiculous "security" measure invented. I flew during that time when NO carry on was allowed, I take off my shoes, I don't bring on liquid items and buy my freaking toothpaste before I check in at my hotel, I allow agents to swab and prod at my stuff and rifle through my underwear, I drink my coffee before I hit the security line and then pay $5 for another one afterward...at this point, I just don't give a crap anymore. I'll take either option if I have to, but I'd prefer the scan. I don't really like to be touched even by my friends. It's not like the agent is getting a view of my bikini wax- the view is really not all that invasive, all things considered. I just want to get where I'm going, frankly, and as quickly and efficiently as possible. Get me through security as quickly as possible and I'll put up with all the rules.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Sumayah
On 11/20/2010 15:05:03
4. Pat down should use the back of the hand mainly and should not 'grope' sensitive areas. When having body pats performed on me or performing I have followed the under wire of the bra and that is it.
Re-read the thread, links have been posted that show that this is not the pat down *now* being given. It is much more intrusive. I don't think any of us object to the pat down that had been going on, but this one does not use the back of the hand it uses palms and fingers. I can't find the link because I'm at work right now, but I read that yes men only pat down men and women only pat down women. However, the article I was reading asked blatantly what happens when a same sex person is not available. The TSA would not directly answer that question but left it implied that basically you'll have to sit and wait til one gets there (at the risk of missing your flight). so get there extra, extra, extra early now.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By nic_dancezone
On 11/20/2010 15:09:35
In the UK there is always a male and female attendant present at the security gates. Also the pat down you are commenting on is not happening in the UK, I flew recently to Northern Ireland and was patted down but no where near genitals like your previous post.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/20/2010 15:24:29
In the UK there is always a male and female attendant present at the security gates. Also the pat down you are commenting on is not happening in the UK, I flew recently to Northern Ireland and was patted down but no where near genitals like your previous post.
Welcome to America where you can now have your outer vaginal lips stroked from back to front or front to back by your lovely TSA worker. I think that if I travel and have the pat down, I am going to say to TSA person "You know what sucks more than having your vagina stroked prior to a lovely vacation by a stranger?...Having to garner an income in a career where you stand around all day touching random twat after twat. Must suck. Have a lovely rest of the day...I'll be in Hawaii."
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By d4j
On 11/20/2010 15:30:46
angelfish said:
it would be kind of arrogant of me to assume that my body is anything special to the agent who either sees my scan or gives me the pat down.
Just because I don't want to be touched, doesn't mean that I think that my body is anything special to anyone. I just don't want to be touched. And nic, it's already been discussed that it's NOT just the back of the hand. I know that this is a job and I know that they do it a gazillion times and I know that they aren't ogling or even really seeing you, they are just checking for what they need to check for. I still won't do it. I won't be seen, I won't be touched. Nope, nope.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By nic_dancezone
On 11/20/2010 15:43:17
After searching people for 20 hours straight on one shift all you end up seeing is bodies and the task on hand. I personally do not agree with the genital touching as it goes against I have been taught and trained in the UK for security work and legal implications for searching. Same as I am not supposed to go in a persons pockets when searching as that is close touching. I want to know in the US then how many of these close touching body pat downs are actually been carried out? If that is the carriers terms and conditions for you flying and you do not agree to them they can refuse to take you.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Munkenstein
On 11/20/2010 16:18:26
It kind of sucks how people are trying to emphasize so much that flying is a total choice...nobody should have to choose between their job and being put into a position like this, whether it's dude to previous abuse, just not wanting to be touched, or anything else. Not everybody can drive, take a train, take a bus, etc. for the things that they have to do. I rarely fly and when I do, it's a choice...but I work on a daily basis with people who have to fly or else they'll just have to quit or lose their jobs. It really sucks for them right now with all of this uproar and insanity.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/20/2010 16:21:01
I want to know in the US then how many of these close touching body pat downs are actually been carried out? If that is the carriers terms and conditions for you flying and you do not agree to them they can refuse to take you.
They are being carried out to anyone and everyone who they choose to carry them out on. In some cities they do it to more people than others.It's not like they are only doing it for people on a terrorist watch list or with a warning of high risk activity from these particular people. Put it this way. It is enough for unions to be outraged after only two days. If you refuse the full body scan and then you refuse the pat down you are escorted out and subject to a $10,000 fine.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By tumblebug
On 11/20/2010 16:33:03
Well if it's for the good of the country then I think Obama should volunteer his family as demonstration to show how 'harmless' it is. I'll be in line for my body scan and pat down...right behind Malia and Sasha.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/20/2010 16:37:59
Well if it's for the good of the country then I think Obama should volunteer his family as demonstration to show how 'harmless' it is. I'll be in line for my body scan and pat down...right behind Malia and Sasha.
Obama was not the person who put this into full swing. The head of the Department of Homeland Security did. Not everything falls directly in the lap if the president other departments handle situations like this. In fact the former head of the DOHS, the man who is pushing that these will make us safer and prevent terrorism, is the same man hired by the companies that make the scanners to promote the sale. . . interesting.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By tumblebug
On 11/20/2010 16:44:45
I never said he 'put it into full swing'. Where did I say that? Please show me. For your entertainment: http://www.mediaite.com/online/reddit-users-asks-obama-to-send-his-family-through-tsa-body-scanners/
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By nic_dancezone
On 11/20/2010 16:49:23
I am not trying to say that flying is only a choice. But a lot of things have terms and conditions eg soft ware on computer that means you will not copy it and only use it in these ways, tickets to a sporting event or pop concert, so do air line tickets and if you do not comply to them then you cannot use that service. It sounds like this is a new American version of pat downs. I know Manchester airport in UK does have body scanners and there was talk about bringing them in at other airports but there has been more aversion to them and they have been postponed for now.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/20/2010 16:57:08
I never said he 'put it into full swing'. Where did I say that? Please show me. For your entertainment: http://www.mediaite.com/online/reddit-users-asks-obama-to-send-his-family-through-tsa-body-scanners/
I am not saying that you suggested he put it into full swing, what I am saying is that if someone should be subjecting their family to it to show it is harmless it should be the people who are on the news every day pushing it. Michel Curtof is one of those people (he's the guy I mentioned above). HIS words are that this is harmless and necessary and so on which he proclaims on a number of legitimate news programs. Because of his very public stance I think his family should be first in line. It's not that I do not agree with your position, in fact I do agree if it's harmless why do we have to demonstrate on a plastic model on TV not a real person? I just hear a lot of people who are quick to throw the president (and I do mean any president) under the bus simply because he is the president without making the others who are the foundation in these issues take responsibility.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/20/2010 17:40:52
I want to know in the US then how many of these close touching body pat downs are actually been carried out?
You have the option of the nude-a-tron or the pat down. If you trigger the alarms, you have to get a mandatory pat down any way. If you opt out of the nude-a-tron, you get a mandatory pat down. Many many intimate pat downs are being carried out. That's why it's news. The Thanksgiving travel weekend is upon us and millions of travelers are being subjected to the new security.
If that is the carriers terms and conditions for you flying and you do not agree to them they can refuse to take you.
These aren't the carriers terms. The airlines are private. The TSA is a government run agency. You have to pass the checkpoint to get to your carrier. If you refuse the conditions, you don't get to your gate. Period. In fact, The pilots and flight attendants were being subjected to it until the union freaked out about it and the TSA is letting them bypass it altogether, effective yesterday. They just need to provide certain ID. That is why I think that these two entities, the airline and the TSA, are going to have an issue with each other very soon if they don't modify the current situation. It could cripple the industry even further.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By pasdebourretendu
On 11/20/2010 17:44:20
http://www.witn.com/mobi/home/nationalworld Evidently it IS groping and everyone gets to see what you look like naked, not just the staff. Wow airport security is the perfect job for perverts.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By tumblebug
On 11/20/2010 17:56:45
This story had me in tears. Sorry if someone already posted this. I've been reading stories on a few different boards so I apologize if I repeat. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40291856/ns/travel-news/?GT1=43001 This man was left covered in Urine. “I am a good American and I want safety for all passengers as much as the next person," Sawyer said. "But if this country is going to sacrifice treating people like human beings in the name of safety, then we have already lost the war.” *standing ovation*
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/20/2010 18:06:31
T “I am a good American and I want safety for all passengers as much as the next person," Sawyer said. "But if this country is going to sacrifice treating people like human beings in the name of safety, then we have already lost the war.” *standing ovation*
You beat me to it.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By d4j
On 11/20/2010 19:20:36
Nobody has to fly anywhere if they don't want to.
Not all flying is recreational. If it's for work and it's overseas, what do you do then? Quit any kind of work where flying might be involved? I guess so.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/20/2010 19:28:03
^^ I agree. I think that what we need to consider is some of the things that were outlines in the WSJ article like above. I think that we are allowing too many little *'s to be piled on here.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By CheesePlusCake
On 11/20/2010 19:38:15
I think that in times where people are freaking out over something, the US government seems to feel the need to do SOMETHING in order to make itself (or the American people) feel better.... even if it isn't the RIGHT thing. Every time something happens, a new layer of "security" is added. I don't think it's solving the real problem, I almost feel like it's trying to create a false sense of security. It would make more sense not to let terrorists on watch lists onto airplanes. The terrorists aren't stupid, if they know what security we have in place, they'll find a way around it if they really want to. I'm not saying not to do searches on airplanes because terrorists will find ways around security, I think it makes sense to do security checks (though I completely disagree with the invasiveness of the new measures). I just think that there are more useful things that can be done to increase security that doesn't involve groping of innocent people, like targeting people who are suspected to be in contact with terrorist networks.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/20/2010 20:03:55
I think it might come down to a customer service issue. The airlines are a business. They need the flying public to survive. The flying public has seen a gradual decrease in the pleasantry of flying for quite a bit now. Although being shoved in a metal tube catapulting along at 600 miles an hour at 30,000 feet with a bag a peanuts to try and distract yourself isn't everyone's idea of fun. Now you even have to pay for your checked luggage. Although this is a government issue and not an airline rule, it is still going to be factored into "air travel nonsense" and the airline business will take the brunt. This is going to be a problem. There will be one humiliating story after another popping up in the media. And I absolutely agree that if a terrorist wants to cause chaos, they will figure out a way to do so. This won't prevent it. It's just going to piss off a lot of innocent people. Go back to what they had. Add some canines to sniff to the mix. Add the interviewing process if needed. I'd much rather be sniffed by a German shepard and asked when I was born, where I live and where I'm going than have a vag-swipe.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By tumblebug
On 11/20/2010 20:04:19
Well it's like this, if the terrorists can't get past security to blow up planes they will just find another alternative. While it may limit them some, there are plenty of other well populated areas they can blow up...but as Mr. Sawyer said- they have already won.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By d4j
On 11/20/2010 20:22:20
^That's true if you are starting out with a new job. I can see choosing something different because it involved a lot of air travel. But what if you have been doing a job for a long time before all this hulla-baloo? I guess you just leave and start a new career? I understand that, I mean, change is part of life and you have to adapt. But still... it's a bummer. I guess you just have to get over it (the security measures that is). If I HAD to, I'd get over it I guess. I'm just in the fortunate position at the moment that I don't HAVE TO get over it and so I won't. :)
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/20/2010 20:22:45
Yes. If you don't want to travel by airplane for your job, then find another job. It does come down to choices. Some people take jobs so they can fly all over the place and some people prefer to stay closer to home for a variety of reasons.
In this economy? Someone should just quit? Will there be another option waiting? People who fly on business don't all love that aspect. I had a best friend who flew for her job for years. She HATED it. She hated living out of a suitcase. She hated being away from her family. But she had to endure it for economic reasons. I like this... http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704496104575627151860149756.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By tumblebug
On 11/20/2010 20:27:58
^ That article is well written. There were a lot of great lines but this one in particular... "This strange nightmare began with three strange words: Osama bin Laden. Anybody know where he went? Or is our government too busy molesting the flying public to keep looking?" That about sums it up.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/20/2010 20:31:24
This was my favorite quote.. "If you don't like it, don't fly. That's essentially how Department of Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano recently put it -- as if the airline industry needs another round of bankruptcies." hehehe. Exactly.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Cadbury_Eater
On 11/20/2010 21:36:23
Well, the terrorists have a small victory, citizens in their own country feeling violated and afraid from pat down or fully body scanners. But if you make exceptions for religion, PTSD sufferers and such, there's no point having the security cause it will be loopholed. Cause the main tool for terroists is the fear, fear to cripple people everyday. It's not so much about the attacks, but the trauma and fear that affects everyone. I think it's horrible what the people who have survived cancer, ex assault victims and such being put through, I don't agree with it more for these people, than myself (though the idea of it mortifies me a bit too). Imagine the humiliation for these people and trauma. What happens with the one finger swipe if someone is wearing a pad or something? And what if the person is not hetero, do they still have to be scanned by someone of the same gender? I was totally fine with the old "pat down", but the one finger swipe of gentitalia what? Surely, you don't need to probe with a single finger to work out if something's concealed there. Ew. Both of the ideas are unappealing to me, but I'd take the pat down. The body scan is extra radiation and more importantly, I'd be paranoid of the images been saved and kept forever. Despite the invasive patdown being disturbing and being mortified for a few minutes, at least it wasn't on a computer somewhere. The experience would soon fade into memory for both parties, especially if I happened to be travelling somewhere amazing.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Kekoa
On 11/20/2010 22:01:59
I'm flying Thursday morning, so I'll be sure to update. Once again, I fully understand why people are upset. I also don't necessarily think that these scanners and patdowns are the best idea. I think that most DDNers have expressed their concerns well. However, I hope that the general public acts like adults about this and refrains from flying if they're opposed until this is all sorted out. Right now, the option is to fly or else choose between the scan or the patdown. Please, for the love of all that is good, do not decide to fly and then cause a scene by refusing both. I'm reading everywhere that there's supposed to be a nationwide "protest" on Wednesday, and I think that is absolutely awful. Contact your senator, talk to the media, blog, have an old fashioned protest outside the airports that have these scanners...but PLEASE don't screw the rest of us over.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By YumYumDoughnut
On 11/20/2010 22:07:37
I got a full body scan when I flew back from Iceland. I believe this was in Boston? The people were very nice to me. I asked them about radiation levels of the scan and they told me that it was pretty low. They gave me the option of having a Pat down.( I chose pat down on the second time back. I had full body scan first time. I didn't wan't to expose to too much radiation in a matter of a few days) I am not 100% sure if this pat down is the "new pat down", but it wasn't as bad as people make it out to be. They took me out of the line and had me stand behind a barrier thing. A female came and quickly ran her hands over me. I don't think her hands made any contact with my genitals. At least, not that I noticed. The part that bothered me the most is that she messed up my hair. Mine was up in a messy bun thing , and she kind of grabbed it and fondled it for a bit. I assume she was checking for knives or other weapons. So I MAY have had experience with the new pat down, but I am not 100% sure. If I actually had the new pat down it wasn't something outrageous. Just be sure to fly with your hair down, because they WILL mess up an updo. After Edit I think I just got a bad draw of luck because I got stopped twice. My guy didn't get stopped either time. Maybe I look like I blow up bombs or something.... I understand why they won't scan pilots. I mean, if they wanted to blow up a plane...couldn't they crash it or something>
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By DancinDiva2005
On 11/20/2010 22:35:30
Obama speaks about "Frustrations": "Obama: TSA pat-downs frustrating but necessary" http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40289750/ns/travel/?GT1=43001
but he said the enhanced security measures are necessary to keep America safe.
I hate this excuse. I know it's been said before but I don't understand how so many other countries are able to keep safe but yet...we have to have this "new and improved" system to "keep us safe". HOW much are we going to put up with in the name of "keeping safe"? GAH!! What's the next step after this? Assume a terrorist gets through this with something? Why not sneak something in his 3oz bottle of shampoo in the carry-on? Or I dunno..just assume someone makes it through these...THEN WHAT? Or..what if they sneak onto a subway and blow one of those up? Why don't we have these new measures of security on every other form of transportation? Oh, and this gem too:
Obama acknowledged that as president he does not have to go through pat-downs and other normal security procedures at airports, since he flies on Air Force One.
And this:
"One of the most frustrating aspects of this fight against terrorism is that it has created a whole security apparatus around us that causes huge inconvenience for all of us,” Obama said.
I don't consider this 'security apparatus' just to be an "inconvenience". "Oh, that's inconvenient that I have to be groped by a total stranger to fly today." Good thing I don't have any flights to take in the near future. I was planning on getting from Missouri to California in the early spring...looks like I'll be driving now. Help those gas prices get nice and high :) heh. Also, wouldn't it be nice if our train system was evolved enough so people did have another decent option to turn to? I'd love to have some of those high-speed trains here that they have in many countries overseas. It wouldn't help international travelers, but still...
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/20/2010 22:50:13
But I am trying to emphasize that we all have CHOICES.
As mentioned before, I'm gonna opt in for the vag-swipe and fly if I want to. I don't care about the radiation, I don't fly that often. But I don't really want my naked self on screen. I don't even care if they have the capacity to save it or not. I just am not okay with the visual, period. Creeps me out regardless of it's intended use. You want to see me naked? Well,then we are going to have to have sex, because otherwise it ain't happening unless you're my female doctor. HOWEVER, all of that said...I am a 45 year old woman who can make these adult decisions. I have an 11 year old son and I don't want him to be subjected to EITHER. No nude-a-tron and don't touch my kids genitals. Apparently, they give them a "modified" pat down until they are 13, in which there is no guarantee that I can watch over it. Sorry. Don't take my kid and pat him down where I can't see. That's a HELLZ NO. I am a supporter of our President. But I agree with the notion that Malia, Sasha and Michelle should have a vag swipe too to demonstrate their support. Sorry. That sounds disgusting. Why? BECAUSE IT IS DISGUSTING.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By TinyD
On 11/20/2010 22:55:00
I am leaving for America on the 15th of December and this thread has me terrified to fly! I don't agree with either screening measure. I feel that they are both an invasion of privacy. I have flown to America three times now and each time getting through security has taken longer than the last. How long is it going to take now? I think these new measures are taking things to the extreme! In Australia, we have random bomb screening but nothing like this. How do these screenings protect America from international threats coming from countries that don't have such screening processes? I am now going to spend the next three weeks terrified that I am going to be touched inappropriately or have an image of my nude self saved on a computer and spread around the interwebz!!
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/20/2010 23:09:13
How do these screenings protect America from international threats coming from countries that don't have such screening processes?
Why would you go and ask something so completely logical like that? Apparently our government hasn't asked these questions. Holes in the system? Where? I've already read somewhere where a person from another country is refusing to visit the states. Nice. Let's see how this effects our economy as a whole as we garner the reputation of police state.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/21/2010 00:10:36
The notion that our president is at fault for any and every piece of legislation or regulation that flies from a governmental organization is naive and completely ignorant at best.
You are going to have to refresh my memory regarding where I insinuated he was "at fault for any and every piece of legislation and regulation." OR for the TSA's new measures for that matter. I am neither "naive" or "completely ignorant". I said it should be done to show their "support". And that's OBVIOUSLY a sarcastic jab at how ludicrous the procedure is, because I'm not sure we can comfortably picture a TSA agents hand in one of his kids crotches. I wouldn't care WHO the sitting President was. It's a point being made at it's lunacy. Might I say, my thread has remained very non-hostile and productive thus far. Thank you for all of the many opinions, whether I have agreed or not. Should the integrity of the thread disintegrate into a name calling event, I'll lock it.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/21/2010 00:43:30
Just found this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-N5adYM7Kw&feature=player_embedded
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/21/2010 01:22:39
[q=i_am_me]
The notion that our president is at fault for any and every piece of legislation or regulation that flies from a governmental organization is naive and completely ignorant at best.
You are going to have to refresh my memory regarding where I insinuated he was "at fault for any and every piece of legislation and regulation." OR for the TSA's new measures for that matter. I am neither "naive" or "completely ignorant". I said it should be done to show their "support". And that's OBVIOUSLY a sarcastic jab at how ludicrous the procedure is, because I'm not sure we can comfortably picture a TSA agents hand in one of his kids crotches. I wouldn't care WHO the sitting President was. It's a point being made at it's lunacy. Might I say, my thread has remained very non-hostile and productive thus far. Thank you for all of the many opinions, whether I have agreed or not. Should the integrity of the thread disintegrate into a name calling event, I'll lock it.[/q] I don't think that the intent was to accuse you rather than to just state another point (At least that is how I read it). I have spoken to a lot of other americans here who are so mad at president obama for this being implemented as if one day he decided to just put this in place over breakfast. I think that the point of the post is that whether you are an obama supporter or not we need to understand that there are others responsible for these decisions. It is silly to assume that America is run by one person making all of these decisions. Personally I do not think that the president is happy about the decisions that were made that he now has to speak to the american people about (because that's basically how this works as many tend to look over this fact). He needs to do, however, what he is "hired" to do that being staying professional and diplomatic. Maybe his not subjecting his family to this is his way of showing that he isn't comfortable with this. . ? Either way, as the president he really can't scream out to the american people like sometimes we wish he could/would and things need to go through the proper channels.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Sumayah
On 11/21/2010 01:47:18
In this economy? Someone should just quit? Will there be another option waiting? People who fly on business don't all love that aspect. I had a best friend who flew for her job for years. She HATED it. She hated living out of a suitcase. She hated being away from her family. But she had to endure it for economic reasons.
I am not suggesting that anyone should "just quit." But I am trying to emphasize that we all have CHOICES. If you hate your job and hate traveling or don't like the new travel laws then there are always solutions and other choices.
What about people who love their jobs and love to travel but are uncomfortable/refuse to cooperate with the new security measures? What we had to have an invasive pat down or be shown nude on a screen every time before we taught class? Well, pity I spent all that time and money on training and absolutely love my job, guess now I get to be a fry cook at McDonald's because I refuse to go through that. As I said, I hate flying - I'm white knuckled, in tears the whole way and it hurts my ear really badly. However I'd love to someday travel abroad. But with my fear of flying coupled with these security measures, I'll never get to do it. So I guess I'm not going to be privileged enough to fly ever again. New point - what of children flying alone? I have two teenage nephews who yearly fly unaccompanied to visit their dad. What happens to children who have to fly alone? What happens when they're flagged and alone - too old to have a stewardess watch over them but not adults. What happens then? Next question, if these are the new flying procedures, what happens next? What becomes to new safety measure? Are we going to be told to strip naked and bend over and grab our ankles? And where the heck is the money for all this coming from?! I'm so glad to see all the other government funded agencies are so well full. I mean it's not like health care or public education need any money. They're rolling in it right? Oh and to mention that we're a nation of people in debt governed by a country in debt and what example does the government set? Buy the shiniest new toy and spend tons of money - it's not like they *really* have to ever pay that back. So you know what, to hell with my credit score, to hell with the banks, I'm going to spend all night watching infomercials and I'm going to buy all the pretty, shiny expensive things so I can be like the government. I just want to know where will the line be? If not this then what? As I said earlier, the government is telling us nudity is bad and here they are promoting it. If they're going to cling to their Puritanical roots and be oh so modest in every other aspect of their censorship, why is it acceptable here? Why is it acceptable for someone to see me naked? Since being an adult, only three people have seen me naked - my husband, my doctor, and my former roommate (and even she hasn't seen me totally naked). I don't walk around in skimpy clothes, it's just not how I feel comfortable. So, I guess my choice has been made for me. I won't be flying so long as this crap is going on. Thanks TSA, without you I might have decided to see the world, but I think I'd rather drill a hole through my skull instead. edit* One more thing. The pat downs are same sex but is the person monitoring the nude scans same sex? I understand the person seeing you naked never see you personally and the agent dealing with you personally never sees the scam but I should be fine with some random person male or female looking at me naked? I think not. I don't care that the images are deleted and that they aren't allowed to have cell phones or other devices used to take pictures, that it's a fireable offense. But that should make me feel better, to know that if someone was getting off on this and was taking pictures that they'd be fired and fined... oh well. I realize it's not girls gone wild... oh right, they at least get compensation for being seen naked.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/21/2010 01:59:31
In this economy? Someone should just quit? Will there be another option waiting? People who fly on business don't all love that aspect. I had a best friend who flew for her job for years. She HATED it. She hated living out of a suitcase. She hated being away from her family. But she had to endure it for economic reasons.
I am not suggesting that anyone should "just quit." But I am trying to emphasize that we all have CHOICES. If you hate your job and hate traveling or don't like the new travel laws then there are always solutions and other choices. People that say they HAVE to do something because there are no other options are stuck inside their own head and not thinking outside the box. I know plenty of people who eventually worked out solutions to get out of jobs they absolutely hated. It didn't happen overnight, but they went to school part time, joined networking groups, thought about side businesses they could start that would help get them out of their current job, thought of creative solutions to work at home for part of their job through conference calls etc. I just wish someone that has actually experienced the new pat downs and machines would come on. I am flying in December for a work related event, but its not for another month. My brother will be taking a flight to Cali soon, but he won't have a problem with getting fondled either.
The important thing to remember is that most people who have a job that requires flying also requires you to be in another place within a time frame. You can not drive to LA from Boston over night nor can you take any other form of transportation other than flying and arrive at the destination within the required time frame. It is not that people are stuck inside their own heads but if a business man or woman who flies often for work between major cities for meetings and has done so for 10 -15 year now doesn't want to be touched there. We're not talking about not wanting a background check here. . . What this is suggesting is having people in a position where they have to either risk their careers or do something they are very uncomfortable with. I think if you want to hear someone's actual experience you can search many of the news outlets out there (and I mean legit ones) and see what people who have actually experienced them have to say. Everyone has their own opinion which seems to sum up the thoughts of everyone but the ultimate problem is that with the amounts of variations of the people going through airports (medical conditions, sexuality, past experience/trauma, children, pads, adult diapers, trans-genders, prosthetics, and the list goes on) the TSA is not taking into account the care and consideration that needs to be taken. As mentioned with the pad does the TSA agent now need to see it to prove that it's not a bomb like she had to see the breast of the cancer survivor? How about the agent not knowing how to proper handle the medical condition of the man with the bladder cancer? People like this fly every day probably more than you think because before they never needed to be "outed" or put on the spot like they do now. Again, it's just food for thought. I just don't think that things like this can be put into place unless they have answers for all the little questions.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Sumayah
On 11/21/2010 02:47:01
This is all in response to the underwear bomber last Christmas.
Incidentally, because he had powder in his underwear, it won't show up in the screening anyway so really this is in response to as of yet unforseen threats and possible developments in technology. So I don't feel safer - another underwear bomber could slip through this system. But all this extra security really puts a whole different spin on the T&A in TSA.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By amarath
On 11/21/2010 07:21:17
I hate full body pat downs. They are complete and utter nonsense. I haven't read this thread because it's 5 pages long, and I don't want to start from the beginning. However, I'm like 100% sure that half the people are arguing that these are all necessary for public security, needed to keep terrorists from existing and keep people safe, and what not. To that, I say this: Listen. There are many, many things that we can do to try and diminish terrorism. If we're going to go all out about it, the safest way to fly on planes would be to have all luggage hand searched, all persons made to wear company-issued jumpsuits/onesies, no carry on luggage required, etc. We don't do that. Why? Because it's [b]stupid[/b]. There are reasonable precautions and there are unreasonable precautions. Me, I think general full body pat downs are unreasonable. I got like, literally grope-style patted down by some chick as I flew from England to France today (oh, and they searched my stuff by hand, too, fantastic, nothing like having a lady flip through all of your books [what did she think was hiding in my books??] and going through your tampon supply) and it's nonsense. There is such a thing as being over rigorous, ridiculous, and unnecessary. Enough is enough. You ought to take reasonable precautions, but there are so many reasons why people wouldn't want to be scanned or patted down that I could keep going for hours. Even just something as basic as 'it's creepy as $@#$' -- I'm not some sort of crazy religious, and I am not the survivor of any type of sexual assault, but it makes me hella uncomfortable to have some stranger running their hands all over me. Like, don't touch me. I don't want my mom doing that. I definitely don't want you.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/21/2010 08:54:59
New point - what of children flying alone? I have two teenage nephews who yearly fly unaccompanied to visit their dad. What happens to children who have to fly alone? What happens when they're flagged and alone - too old to have a stewardess watch over them but not adults. What happens then?
Oh my goodness! I didn't even think of that! I was considering eventually letting my son fly solo. I would NEVER allow that now.
Next question, if these are the new flying procedures, what happens next? What becomes to new safety measure? Are we going to be told to strip naked and bend over and grab our ankles?
This is the MOST important issue. When do they go ahead and say "Since things are being smuggled through in orifices, we are going to start random cavity checks." That's next people. For anyone who thinks a terrorist won't jack something up their vag, think again.
Since being an adult, only three people have seen me naked - my husband, my doctor, and my former roommate (and even she hasn't seen me totally naked). I don't walk around in skimpy clothes, it's just not how I feel comfortable.
That's me. Not raised in a house where everyone runs around buck naked. Not a skinny dipper. Not a let's all get drunk crazy and naked college kid (and wasn't that way when I was IN college). Not my thing. Like I said, you wanna see me naked? You're going to have to be my partner or my ob/gyn. Otherwise the GED grad in the booth ain't having a quick peek, regardless of whether he is interested or not. And although I would choose the vag-swipe, I would wear a big thick Kotex whether I was on my period or not. You wanna feel my crotch? Here's a big handful of cotton for you, biatches.
Remember how he took his daughter swimming in the gulf after the oils spill to show its safety? How the first family got h1n1 shots to show their safety. Well, you can BET his wife and daughters won't be getting enhanced pat downs-why not? Too humiliating and degrading.
Please and thank you.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By DancinDiva2005
On 11/21/2010 09:57:49
SNL got a hold of this topic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pcqI3tCSf-s#! :-D ^ and as for the Obama thing, I posted a link about halfway up the page that shows Obama's reactions to this whole thing. He said basically that it's a "necessary frustration for the safety of the American people"...but that he "doesn't have to do it because he (and his family) fly in the Air Force One".
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/21/2010 10:01:47
^^^ hehehe!
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By tumblebug
On 11/21/2010 10:06:49
For those of you seeking real footage, little can be argued with this. This is disgusting and unnecessary. Keep in mind, this was BEFORE the new measures were taken which are even worse. What if this happened to you or someone in your family? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-jdDE6bFow&feature=related
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/21/2010 10:45:51
^^^^^GAAAHHHHHHH!!!! The humiliation aspect just makes me want to cry. Not okay. It's just NOT.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Megan
On 11/21/2010 10:58:36
^^Interestingly, though, there's no footage of the stuff this guy claims. Just saying. I saw nothing in that video actually showing anything inappropriate. Those stories might sound scary, but without proof, those things can get twisted, even by good people. Even the woman in the beginning- it's very hard to know if it's appropriate without hearing what she's saying.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/21/2010 11:56:48
you think the TSA is ever going to release security videos to the media now? Of course not. We will only get proof if someone has there phone with them, but those cases are rare because at the time that you would have the best view of whats going on, your phone will be in the bin going through the metal detector.
That's what I was wondering with the "don't touch my junk" guy. He has his iPhone in his hand. How did he do that? My other concern is, if I decide to get a patdown and my laptop and purse is going through the xray belt, how do I watch my stuff? Can we go and get our belongings before we are molested?
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Celebrian
On 11/21/2010 13:15:28
If your child sets off an alarm they will get searched regardless of age. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJNY_PTULO4 I could take this, the scanner, the patdown, despite my past and not liking anyone touching me that I don't know, I can take it all. But not my son. He won't be flying again until they figure this out.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By d4j
On 11/21/2010 13:17:00
^Oh dear, I'm afraid to watch... :( EDIT: I just watched a video interview of the head of the TSA and he said something interesting about why an examiner would put gloved fingers inside the waistband of pants and feel for the underwear waistband. He said that the gloves get tested for chemical residue or whatever it is that proves that there is bomb powder stuff in the underwear. This addresses the point brought up earlier in the debate that it's useless to check undies for physical presence of a bomb if it is a chemical substance instead of a 'ticking clock' or something that you can feel the shape of. Here is the vid: http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/11/21/tsa.pat.downs/index.html?hpt=C1
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/21/2010 13:37:02
If your child sets off an alarm they will get searched regardless of age. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJNY_PTULO4
And that was BEFORE the new TSA measures. This is where common sense is missing. Child cries because they take her stuffed animal from her and put it through the x-ray belt. Because she's having a fit, she can't get through the metal detector properly and sets it off twice. Mandatory pat down. WHO IN THEIR RIGHT F&**%$( MIND believes that this kid is a terrorist and merits a pat down? She's a three year old having a MELT DOWN. OHHHHH...I get it. It was a giant preplanned terrorist plot launched by her family and the kid is in on it. "Okay sweetie. Let's go over the plan again. When they take Boo Boo Bear, that's your cue to go ape s&^*." Oh wait...the Dad works for a TV station. A threat? BUT WAIT AGAIN...That doesn't prove he's no threat. He must be A SLEEPER CELL. Idiots.
I could take this, the scanner, the patdown, despite my past and not liking anyone touching me that I don't know, I can take it all. But not my son. He won't be flying again until they figure this out.
I draw the line with my son too.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By CheesePlusCake
On 11/21/2010 13:43:02
In regards to international flights not having US security measures so it's pointless to have them here since the terrorists are coming from abroad, this "He also criticised the US for imposing increased checks on US-bound flights but not on its own domestic services" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11632944 makes it sound like people flying to the US from abroad are forced to have stricter security checks? I'm not exactly sure how it works, though.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/21/2010 14:09:02
Here is the vid: http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/11/21/tsa.pat.downs/index.html?hpt=C1
He went around and around. When you have Hillary stating that she wouldn't do it, where do you think this will go? As more government people speak up against it, it might get modified sooner rather than later. And as long as there are security holes from other countries, the whole thing is pointless. 99.999% of the flying public is just trying to get from point A to point B. The few that are wanting to reek havoc are not 6 year old children, the disabled, and Grandma. Esh.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By tumblebug
On 11/21/2010 14:40:13
Celebrian- that video is disturbing, at the very least. It makes me want to vomit repeatedly and then be a real parent and remove that poor innocent little girl from that situation. If we let a stranger (exceptions being medical reasons by medical professionals) look at our child naked or touched them inappropriately, we would be subject to child pornography, abuse, or neglect charges. This is no different. Where did they find these 'body scanner employees' anyway? The sex offender list? MY daughter will NEVER be subject to that type of un-warranted inappropriate abuse. A child's advocate is their parent and it is the responsibility of that parent to be their voice and protect them. Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By SaraTheGrouch
On 11/21/2010 15:30:24
If you don't like it, don't fly. Seriously. More elbow room for me. And for those of you who are worried about the radiation of the xray - do you realize how much radiation you're exposing yourself to by being in an airplane?!?
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By SaraTheGrouch
On 11/21/2010 16:46:54
The airports near both of my homes are expanding, not decreasing in size. More airlines are moving in, which means there will be more flights, not less. These new safety regulations are not going to make as much of an impact as yall think it will. Did people stop flying because they now had to take off their shoes, take out their laptop, and pack smaller liquids into ziplock bags? No. Everyone just has to fuss at a change because people don't like to accept change.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/21/2010 17:45:26
The airports near both of my homes are expanding, not decreasing in size. More airlines are moving in, which means there will be more flights, not less. These new safety regulations are not going to make as much of an impact as yall think it will. Did people stop flying because they now had to take off their shoes, take out their laptop, and pack smaller liquids into ziplock bags? No. Everyone just has to fuss at a change because people don't like to accept change.
Not so much of an impact as we all think? It's only been a few weeks and so far we have had more HUGE problems then with any of the other measures that have been put into place. To look at this as if it's as simple as exposing feet or opening a laptop is a bit off base. As far as seeing a video if the actual pat downs, you will never get one. There were a few floating around the internet from news media when it first came out and since then they have been taken off the air. This is probably for the same reason that you will never see the actual full body xray without the "questionable parts" blurred out. It's inappropriate. They do not want to show people these things so that they keep flying.Problem is the flying public are not idiots. Are all the facts there? Probably not but the thing we need to consider is how upset these people are. If you were told to take off your belt and your pants fell down it doesn't matter how far they fell you were put in an inappropriate situation. If you warned staff about an implant or medical condition or whatever they should be properly capable of taking care of a pat down accommodating your condition as to prevent something like ruining your medical equipment. You won't see what they REALLY do on the TV or the internet unless it's a home video.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/21/2010 17:53:50
^Oh dear, I'm afraid to watch... :( EDIT: I just watched a video interview of the head of the TSA and he said something interesting about why an examiner would put gloved fingers inside the waistband of pants and feel for the underwear waistband. He said that the gloves get tested for chemical residue or whatever it is that proves that there is bomb powder stuff in the underwear. This addresses the point brought up earlier in the debate that it's useless to check undies for physical presence of a bomb if it is a chemical substance instead of a 'ticking clock' or something that you can feel the shape of. Here is the vid: http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/11/21/tsa.pat.downs/index.html?hpt=C1
I am sorry but this guy is a piece of work. My question is, if they are testing the gloves does the subject have to sit and wait for the results to come back before they can move on to the gate? Now I could see if they had bomb sniffing dogs trigger a guy then this being necessary but the trigger for a pat down is according to this interview either not going through the scanner OR setting off the metal detector. I just feel like we are trying to give a bunch of reasons hoping that the American public doesn't try to put the pieces together and realize OMG none of this seems to be related. It's people like him that need to be subject to this on public television. I also like when he gets caught up saying that other countries are basically more secure then us because they use profiling which is much less invasive than what we are doing and apparently more accurate. . . . interesting.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By tumblebug
On 11/21/2010 18:07:31
As of right now, I know of 4 different sets of families that canceled their flights and opted to make long drives over flying to their Thanksgiving destinations. I am certain they are not the only ones. There will most definitely be an impact.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/21/2010 18:40:56
Not so much of an impact as we all think? It's only been a few weeks and so far we have had more HUGE problems then with any of the other measures that have been put into place. To look at this as if it's as simple as exposing feet or opening a laptop is a bit off base.
This is correct. It was put into place before people had a chance to change travel plans. Many travelers are being completely caught off guard by it. As was said in the cnn video, the TSA didn't want to give away too much ifo on what it invloved so as not to tip off the terrorists. Seriously? And now what? Now it's out there. What's next? Surprise cavity searches? I'm sure ALL government eyes are on how this will further cripple the airline industry. The effects are yet to be seen. And make no mistake. If enough of the Johnson's cancel their travel plans, it will make a ginormous impact on the industry. The city of Orlando is already freaked because people who fly to their destination are largely families. They are very aware that it could directly impact their local economy if the "Johnson's" opt to stay home rather than have little Suzy and little Bobby have to go through the nude-a-tron.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By PogMoGillies
On 11/21/2010 18:44:52
There are other options as well. Fly from a smaller airport, which won't have the more advanced screening. if you start in a smaller airport (local commuter flight-type), you will get your security screening there, and can then fly to a larger airport to continue your travel. You can be like Obama (and any other president), and fly on a private plane. Sure it'll cost more, but it's a way around the screening at larger airports. Do I like the idea that if I set off the metal detector I'll have to make this choice? no. If it was just the chance of setting off the detector, I'd be sure to fly in sweats and a sports bra with no metal anywhere near me. However, it's the random screening that bugs me. If you're going to randomly pick me to go through this, then I will complain, because i've done nothing to warrent further screening. As for the reliability of current technology: My friend was in Inorganic Chemistry class in college, and they were making contact explosives. Of course, being college kids, they were playing around and getting stuff everywhere. Her backpack was in that classroom, and certainly had residue on it. The next day she was at the airport and her bag was swiped. The machine didn't catch it. While she was glad not to be hauled off to jail, part of her wanted to report to somebody that obviously the machinery was not calibrated.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By DancinDiva2005
On 11/21/2010 18:54:30
TSA announces room for possible flexibility: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032619/vp/40301974#40301974 "This has always been viewed as an evolving program that will be adapted as conditions warrant" (ie: people complain) --- Honestly, I wouldn't mind the scanners if they were like other ones that I've heard about. A generic body image with the problem area highlighted. Not a scan like ours. I wish I had a picture, but I saw one at some point..I think they have them in Sweden or something. It's seriously just an outline of a body...not my naked body.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/21/2010 19:02:38
There are other options as well. Fly from a smaller airport, which won't have the more advanced screening. if you start in a smaller airport (local commuter flight-type), you will get your security screening there, and can then fly to a larger airport to continue your travel.
Right. The one closest to me has no nude-a-tron yet. So a terrorist can't figure this out? I've figured it out and I'm no criminal mastermind. However, I read that at one of the nations smaller airports, they don't have the machines, so ALL travelers get pat downs. There is zero consistency in it. Which makes it ridiculous. All a quasi-intelligent organization has to do is find the holes and penetrate them. 9/11 was carried out because of intelligent terrorists that found GAPING holes. If they can get through by pretending to be pilots deadheading with a fake uniform, then they did their homework. They would find these holes again. Meanwhile, Grandma Smith is getting her crotch swiped in full view.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By SaraTheGrouch
On 11/21/2010 19:04:44
I fly on the regular. I'm assuming many of the posters on this thread do not. And by regular, approximately once a month (twice, round trip obviously.) Some months, more than that. My father, who lives in NY and works in CA, flies at least 4-5 times a month. As a traveler, I'll gladly forgo my personal space (and I'm BIG into personal space) and walk through a full body xray machine or agree to a pat-down. The change is to protect us, not hurt us. They've been patting down plenty of people for a very long time. It's not that big of a darn deal. I'm flying on Tuesday into one of the biggest and busiest airports in the country - I'll let you all know how non-invasive it is.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/21/2010 19:05:56
[q=i_am_me]
Not so much of an impact as we all think? It's only been a few weeks and so far we have had more HUGE problems then with any of the other measures that have been put into place. To look at this as if it's as simple as exposing feet or opening a laptop is a bit off base.
This is correct. It was put into place before people had a chance to change travel plans. Many travelers are being completely caught off guard by it. As was said in the cnn video, the TSA didn't want to give away too much ifo on what it invloved so as not to tip off the terrorists. Seriously? And now what? Now it's out there. What's next? Surprise cavity searches? I'm sure ALL government eyes are on how this will further cripple the airline industry. The effects are yet to be seen. And make no mistake. If enough of the Johnson's cancel their travel plans, it will make a ginormous impact on the industry. The city of Orlando is already freaked because people who fly to their destination are largely families. They are very aware that it could directly impact their local economy if the "Johnson's" opt to stay home rather than have little Suzy and little Bobby have to go through the nude-a-tron.[/q] You will not see the impact right away and frankly you are absolutely right. They did this without giving people enough time to arrange other travel even if they could. And when do they do it? The holiday season when families who have been saving and saving to travel to see their families and now are in a really tight spot. They could have put this into place ANY OTHER TIME OF THE YEAR since the last "attempt" but they choose just a short time before the holiday rush. They really didn't even allow agents enough time to iron out any problems during the "slow" season which would have been the smart choice. They jumped in head first leaving room for error and outrage. I give it a few months (that is if the public outcry doesn't change something first) before we start to see the effects of people not flying. You're going to see the same thing we saw right after 9/11 when there were deals up to your ears to get people to fly to make up for the loss.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/21/2010 19:28:57
[q=i_am_me]
There are other options as well. Fly from a smaller airport, which won't have the more advanced screening. if you start in a smaller airport (local commuter flight-type), you will get your security screening there, and can then fly to a larger airport to continue your travel.
Right. The one closest to me has no nude-a-tron yet. So a terrorist can't figure this out? I've figured it out and I'm no criminal mastermind. However, I read that at one of the nations smaller airports, they don't have the machines, so ALL travelers get pat downs. There is zero consistency in it. Which makes it ridiculous. All a quasi-intelligent organization has to do is find the holes and penetrate them. 9/11 was carried out because of intelligent terrorists that found GAPING holes. If they can get through by pretending to be pilots deadheading with a fake uniform, then they did their homework. They would find these holes again. Meanwhile, Grandma Smith is getting her crotch swiped in full view.[/q] I think when most people think of terrorists we do not like to give them credit for any type of intellectual capability. We think that these people are just randomly doing something without any thought process of understanding of things that are common knowledge like flying out of different smaller airports or whatnot. It makes us feel safe to think that the shoe or underwear bomber would be stupid enough to do the same thing twice. This is where most of the issues come from. Simply put, these people are intelligent. Every system has loopholes and grey areas that people who want to create fear will find in order to shrink the "freedoms" that our nation proudly wears on it's sleeve.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/21/2010 19:30:25
dancindiva2005 - You can already hear it in the language of several higher ups. It will see some modification. And I would also be happy to go through a QUASI-nude-a-tron. It needs to have much less detail than it does now. AND there would have to be some sort of accountability on the TSA's part, lest they be telling us that it's one thing only to find out that they truly are seeing the enhanced version.
They've been patting down plenty of people for a very long time. It's not that big of a darn deal. I'm flying on Tuesday into one of the biggest and busiest airports in the country - I'll let you all know how non-invasive it is.
Read the thread. These aren't the same pat downs. Maybe you don't consider having your groin swiped from the back to the front with fingers, invasive. Or you don't have a child that you would care if his testicles were touched or if his nude likeness was on a screen. It's all perspective.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By DancinDiva2005
On 11/21/2010 19:39:03
This is the kind of image I was talking about. This is a bit closer to home though--They're testing it out in New Jersey.http://news.travel.aol.com/2010/09/16/tsa-testing-privacy-upgrades-for-full-body-scanners/
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Heart
On 11/21/2010 19:41:10
Didn't read every single word, but a few thoughts: 1. Read the Constitution. Constitutionally speaking, AMERICANS HAVE NO RIGHT TO PRIVACY. That right falls under the "penumbras," or shadows, of rights enumerated in the Constitution, and was "granted" to us by the Supreme Court. 2. Thus, we have the right to privacy due to legal precedent. Following legal precedent (that is, past court cases), all of the search methods discussed here are COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY 100% LEGAL. 3. I would LOVE to say where in the Constitution this can't be done. Go ahead, go find a quote or find a case and prove it to me. Personal opinion is fine, but don’t talk about rights, because there is NO legal backing to it. 4. If a federal (or state) officer has reasonable suspicion, yes, he can pants you in public and yes, the Court will side with him. (Though if you're saying "I refuse, I refuse, I refuse," that's probable cause and a crime in and of itself.) 5. Flying is a privilege, not a right. Same with driving. It is an inconvenience not to, but that's your choice. If you fly on an airplane, you agree to the security measures or you don't fly. Period. If you drive on a road in New Jersey, you submit to a breathalyzer. Period. Or else you go to jail. These are the rules. Don't like 'em? Change 'em - 78% of the country isn't with you, so cheers! 6. I would have to look to find it, but I literally just read a case yesterday where a man hid a packet of drugs in a fat roll during a strip search. Wear a better bra, those titties should not be drooping!
israel has a LOT more security threats than we do in the US and yet, they haven't had an attack in their airports in a long time, it takes 25 minutes MAX to go through their airport security, and they don't do ANY touching of a person. a lot of their security comes through specially trained security making a point to talk to people in the airport, and looking for queues that something is amiss.
Takes around that long in US airports as well! If you fly non-peak hours, you zip right through there. I've definitely gone through in less than 30 minutes - probably more like 15. They look at my passport, pop through the x-ray, and now this scanner-thing, get my stuff, go to the terminal. Easy. [q=i_am_me]
How do these screenings protect America from international threats coming from countries that don't have such screening processes?
Why would you go and ask something so completely logical like that? Apparently our government hasn't asked these questions. Holes in the system? Where? [/q] Ummm… really???? In order to set foot on American soil, you have to go through Customs. Where you get checked, searched, the whole nine yards. No one is even allowed in the TERMINAL until their visas have been verified, their passports stamped, their luggage searched, everything. It's even MORE rigorous than it is for natural and naturalized citizens. And if an international flight coming to the US pulls an Al Qaeda and moves off its flight path, well, it will soon secure a squadron of jets tagging along and ultimately may be shot down by the military. So yeah…
Obama ABSOLUTELY has the power and authority to tel the tsa to back off and evaluate its current procedures. The buck definitely stops with him.
Obama does not control the TSA. Congress does. Obama doesn't control ANYTHING by himself, except for the military; even then, he must answer to Congress. We the people like to get irate about things AFTER they happen, without realizing that our elected representatives are the ones who put the law in place.
My other concern is, if I decide to get a patdown and my laptop and purse is going through the xray belt, how do I watch my stuff? Can we go and get our belongings before we are molested?
They're watching your stuff and it's on camera the whole time. It doesn't get much safer. You can ask for it to be brought to you but it's probably up to the individual agent. By the way… people are going to keep flying out of necessity, just like after 9/11. The industry might suffer a tiny bit, but the rest of us (who continued flying after 9/11) are just going to incline our seats and enjoy the room. Bring some irradiated champagne up in this joint! Hollaaaaa
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/21/2010 19:56:20
For those of you who are okay with these new procedures, how far are you willing to allow the TSA to go for your safety?
I think that THIS is the ultimate question here. If tomorrow they decided to start cavity searches for all the reasons they say they are doing this what then? Having flown into and out of the US multiple times yes, screenings are vigorous to go through customs but at no time going through customs have I ever been touched. The process is more intense without being more invasive. I would also like to know where 78% of americans approving this came from if you don't mind.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By SaraTheGrouch
On 11/21/2010 20:02:33
As far as they need to go. If you don't like it, DON'T FLY. I know these aren't the "same pat downs." But a pat down is a pat down. Strangers are still touching you. And as for the quasi-nudeatron opposers - I'm sure some of you let it all hang out in a micro mini bikini at the beach for all to see. And whomever said that it takes 25 minutes to get through Israeli airport security is a jackwagon and clearly hasn't been in Ben Gurion airport. I was interrogated in that airport as a 15/16 year old, so uh, think again.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/21/2010 20:05:21
4. If a federal (or state) officer has reasonable suspicion, yes, he can pants you in public and yes, the Court will side with him.
Key word. "reasonable". It is not "reasonable" that a 10 year old is a potential terrorist. Or Grandma. Or the person who sets off the alarm just because they have a prosthesis or an insulin pump.
5. Flying is a privilege, not a right. Same with driving. It is an inconvenience not to, but that's your choice. If you fly on an airplane, you agree to the security measures or you don't fly. Period. If you drive on a road in New Jersey, you submit to a breathalyzer. Period. Or else you go to jail. These are the rules. Don't like 'em? Change 'em - 78% of the country isn't with you, so cheers!
Again..."reasonable". Read - "Under these laws, if a police officer has reasonable grounds to believe that you are driving under the influence, your refusal to submit to a blood alcohol test can result in the suspension or revocation of your license." Meaning...you probably did something to merit the test. And blowing into a breathalizer doesn't really compare to genital touching. Hellava lot more drunks on the roads than terrorists in the skies. But we don't all get pulled over, just because we are driving. At least I've never been. Still not sure how that 10 year old flier still applies as giving "reasonable" grounds as a terrorist.
Ummm… really???? In order to set foot on American soil, you have to go through Customs. Where you get checked, searched, the whole nine yards. No one is even allowed in the TERMINAL until their visas have been verified, their passports stamped, their luggage searched, everything. It's even MORE rigorous than it is for natural and naturalized citizens.
The same question regarding the international holes has been posed to the head of TSA. He can't give a clear answer. But glad you can.
Obama does not control the TSA. Congress does. Obama doesn't control ANYTHING by himself, except for the military; even then, he must answer to Congress. We the people like to get irate about things AFTER they happen, without realizing that our elected representatives are the ones who put the law in place.
Wha? We were discussing him having Malia and Sasha go ahead and get a vag swipe to show support for the new security measure. Never was there a mention of him controlling the TSA.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Heart
On 11/21/2010 20:07:30
I'm more interested in the legal arguments than anything else... I can't find the quote I'm looking for, but anyway, the case is [url=http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=CASE&court=US&vol=470&page=753]Winston v. Lee.[/url] The Supreme Court was ruling on if the police could force surgery on a suspect without a warrant. The answer was HELL NO!, with a quote in there that something along the lines of "that is so crazy inhumane and against society's moral principles" but I can't find it, maybe it was another case. Basically nobody is going to search your body cavities without probable cause. Nobody wants to stick their hand up there, they need a DAMN good reason to do so. Now, if somebody comes running out of the bathroom shouting "SHE JUST SHOVED SOME ROCK UP HER COOCH!", well ya know, the law is not perfect. Basically I trust the law, I trust legal precedent, and I trust that I understand the law enough to know when to stop and say "with all due respect, I need to see a lawyer now." Be nice, polite, deferent, and even if you disagree you won't get messed with. The nice thing about American justice is it can all be remedied within its own system. checks + balances! EDIT.
Key word. "reasonable". It is not "reasonable" that a 10 year old is a potential terrorist. Or Grandma. Or the person who sets off the alarm just because they have a prosthesis or an insulin pump.
etc. Please refer to my previous post:
"Border searches," which include airport searches, do not even require this standard, allowing for random searches; for case law, see United States v. Flores-Montano. Such searches are exempt of reasonable suspicion simply because they occur at the border (or in an airport, etc).
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception]Wiki on it here[/url]. I'd find more cases but I gotta work on homework right now! In sum: airport searches do NOT require probable cause or reasonable suspicion because they are random. And are at airports. If you set off the alarm, that is reasonable suspicion. Doesn't matter if you say you're an amputee. You think you'd be the first amputee with a hollow leg stuffed with illegal materials? Puhleeeease.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/21/2010 20:21:20
As far as they need to go. If you don't like it, DON'T FLY.
Seriously? So if a cavity search is next, you would go ahead and submit? Or is that the convenient moment that you would just go ahead and draw the line and not fly. Would you comply with every inane rule that the government imposed just because it's implemented?
I know these aren't the "same pat downs." But a pat down is a pat down. Strangers are still touching you. And as for the quasi-nudeatron opposers - I'm sure some of you let it all hang out in a micro mini bikini at the beach for all to see.
They are not the same. I have had the old pat down. Not an issue. I will have the new pat down. Not a fan, but whatever. However, there are some people that DO NOT WANT TO BE TOUCHED ON THEIR GENITALS BY STRANGERS. I don't think that they should HAVE to submit to it. They are not "reasonable" suspects. And, if you'd read the thread, you would see that some oppose the machine for radiation reasons. That's not me. Others oppose it because it is TOO nude. Not sure why you'd assume that we would be on the beach in a micro bikini. OBVIOUSLY, we aren't or we wouldn't have an issue with it.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By RattyPatty
On 11/21/2010 20:22:21
I would also like to know where 78% of americans approving this came from if you don't mind.
I found a poll on CBS the other day. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20022876-503544.html
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/21/2010 20:30:16
[q=RattyPatty]
I would also like to know where 78% of americans approving this came from if you don't mind.
I found a poll on CBS the other day. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20022876-503544.html[/q] Thank you for the link. My question though is how many people approve of the new pat downs. Even if your trigger this x-ray you would be subject to them as well as if you have a condition where you can not go through the xray so I would find it interesting to know how many people approve of this new method. I read the article and didn't see anything about it in there. Sorry if I missed it.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/21/2010 20:31:00
In sum: airport searches do NOT require probable cause or reasonable suspicion because they are random. And are at airports.
Doesn't matter. The legality isn't being debated here. Nobody has said that this is illegal to do. Unreasonable. Yes. And common sense is not being applied. Therefore, the airlines will suffer in the long haul if the consumer is not happy flying.
If you set off the alarm, that is reasonable suspicion. Doesn't matter if you say you're an amputee. You think you'd be the first amputee with a hollow leg stuffed with illegal materials? Puhleeeease.
And the 10 year old who some won't put through the nude-a-tron? Or the woman with a prosthesis? All of these people are reasonable suspects? Seriously?
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/21/2010 20:39:47
[q=RattyPatty]
I would also like to know where 78% of americans approving this came from if you don't mind.
I found a poll on CBS the other day. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20022876-503544.html[/q] I'll bet if that poll was taken today, after people have actually experienced it, it would not look like that. The TSA wouldn't be backing up already if only a small margin of people objected. This morning there was no room for compromise. This afternoon, the situation was "evolving". The outcry is getting louder daily.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By SaraTheGrouch
On 11/21/2010 20:43:00
Don't tell me that some people oppose because of the radiation when you receive 0.3 to 0.7 millirems per hour of during typical flight. A dental x-ray will expose you to approximately 2 millirems of radiation. The radiation dosage of these new body scanners only expose you to .002 millirems or .02 microsierverts. A single chest x-ray exposes you to 100 microsierverts of radiation. A mammogram - 700! And don't even begin to tell me that you won't get mammogram because of the threat. That means you'd have to go through the scanner 5,000 times to receive the same amount of radiation as you would have if you had a chest x-ray. The only people who are at risk medically are the TSA scanners! For comparison: Screening at an airport X-ray scanner: .02 microsieverts Negligible risk: 10 microsieverts/year Transcontinental flight: 20 microsieverts Average yearly radiation exposure from the environment: 3000 microsieverts Chest X-ray radiation exposure: 100 microsieverts Mammogram: 700 microsieverts Abdominal CT scan: 10,000 microsieverts Enough to cause radiation sickness: 1,000,000 microsieverts Enough to cause death: 6,000,000 to 8,000,000 microsieverts Source: NPR
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By YumYumDoughnut
On 11/21/2010 20:49:53
You honestly don't think that terrorists won't use small children to blow up planes? If everyone knows that children won't be scanned, don't you think terrorists will know that information and use it to their advantage? They already use children as human shields.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/21/2010 20:51:55
Don't tell me that some people oppose because of the radiation when you receive 0.3 to 0.7 millirems per hour of during typical flight. A dental x-ray will expose you to approximately 2 millirems of radiation. The radiation dosage of these new body scanners only expose you to .002 millirems or .02 microsierverts. A single chest x-ray exposes you to 100 microsierverts of radiation. A mammogram - 700! And don't even begin to tell me that you won't get mammogram because of the threat. That means you'd have to go through the scanner 5,000 times to receive the same amount of radiation as you would have if you had a chest x-ray. The only people who are at risk medically are the TSA scanners! For comparison: Screening at an airport X-ray scanner: .02 microsieverts Negligible risk: 10 microsieverts/year Transcontinental flight: 20 microsieverts Average yearly radiation exposure from the environment: 3000 microsieverts Chest X-ray radiation exposure: 100 microsieverts Mammogram: 700 microsieverts Abdominal CT scan: 10,000 microsieverts Enough to cause radiation sickness: 1,000,000 microsieverts Enough to cause death: 6,000,000 to 8,000,000 microsieverts Source: NPR
Some people (including one of my family members) can not receive any more radiation than absolutely necessary. In her case it's because of cancer treatments. This is also true for frequent flyers (the main reason the pilots union spoke against this).
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By SaraTheGrouch
On 11/21/2010 20:53:47
So DON'T FLY.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/21/2010 21:01:03
Don't tell me that some people oppose because of the radiation when you receive 0.3 to 0.7 millirems per hour of during typical flight. A dental x-ray will expose you to approximately 2 millirems of radiation. The radiation dosage of these new body scanners only expose you to .002 millirems or .02 microsierverts. A single chest x-ray exposes you to 100 microsierverts of radiation. A mammogram - 700! And don't even begin to tell me that you won't get mammogram because of the threat. That means you'd have to go through the scanner 5,000 times to receive the same amount of radiation as you would have if you had a chest x-ray. The only people who are at risk medically are the TSA scanners! For comparison: Screening at an airport X-ray scanner: .02 microsieverts Negligible risk: 10 microsieverts/year Transcontinental flight: 20 microsieverts Average yearly radiation exposure from the environment: 3000 microsieverts Chest X-ray radiation exposure: 100 microsieverts Mammogram: 700 microsieverts Abdominal CT scan: 10,000 microsieverts Enough to cause radiation sickness: 1,000,000 microsieverts Enough to cause death: 6,000,000 to 8,000,000 microsieverts Source: NPR
Who are you arguing with? Read the thread so you know who opposes it and for precisely what reasons.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/21/2010 21:03:36
You honestly don't think that terrorists won't use small children to blow up planes? If everyone knows that children won't be scanned, don't you think terrorists will know that information and use it to their advantage? They already use children as human shields.
Just as they would use a convenient body cavity. And those aren't being searched. Yet. The chances of them using a child is much less than their a$$.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/21/2010 21:05:53
So DON'T FLY.
It just seems a little insensitive. Don't like to be touched there? Don't fly! Medical condition? Don't Fly! Pilot airplanes and radiation can cause complication for continued exposure? Don't Fly. PTSD going home for R&R to see family extremely concerned about being touched by someone else might trigger flashbacks? Don't fly! Have children? Don't fly!
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By SaraTheGrouch
On 11/21/2010 21:05:55
I don't have to argue with anyone specifically. Anyone who opposes it knows who they are and can counter back with whatever argument they want to present. Why don't you tell me to read the thread for a third time? I can read, pal. And I'm not going to read 7 pages of hypocrisy, so you can stop wasting your energy now.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/21/2010 21:09:59
So DON'T FLY.
That's your easy answer to a human with a legit concern? To just scream at her not to fly? Life isn't this black and white. But maybe yours is. Reminder: if this thread disintegrates into anything but a respectful discussion of opinions, I'll lock it. It was on the Teacher's Board for a reason. It was moved by moderators out here to invite more discussion. Not my choice. I don't post out here for very specific reasons.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By d4j
On 11/21/2010 21:10:54
Geez stg, I'm not a hypocrite and I think it is totally rude of you to insinuate that everyone on this thread is. Everyone gets a say you know. You're no more of an expert than anyone else. So you fly a lot - whoop-de-doo.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By SaraTheGrouch
On 11/21/2010 21:17:11
Okay, fine, 85% hypocrisy, 15% legitimate concerns. I never said the word everyone, nor did I say they couldn't post. I just said I didn't feel like spending my time reading through 7 pages. Happy now, d4j?
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By RattyPatty
On 11/21/2010 21:18:51
[q=i_am_me]
So DON'T FLY.
That's your easy answer to a human with a legit concern? To just scream at her not to fly? Life isn't this black and white. But maybe yours is. [/q] Since Sara was replying to someone who cannot fly due to radiation exposure, I think it is important to go back and reread that the amount of radiation by the scanners is equivalent to approximately two minutes of an ACTUAL FLIGHT. If you can't handle the body scan radiation then you should not be flying at all!
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/21/2010 21:24:51
I think a lot of people have legitimate concern both for themselves and for others. Not all situations are black and white. I think that is what got us here in the first place. The US is full of a number of people in a number of different positions and although it might not be an alarming rate of people who, for example, can't go through the xray because of radiation they have had in the past or don't want to be humiliated by taking out a prosthetic breast after going through a difficult time overcoming breast cancer the small percentages of potential issues add up. Goodness forbid next month it's me with the hip replacement or someone discovers that they have cancer and after vigorous radiation now can't return home to see their families without having been subject to an uncomfortable pat down. Our country is supposed to be a wonderful one because we are the land of opportunity. The stance that you and some TSA agents have taken of "then don't fly" is against those things.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Heart
On 11/21/2010 21:25:17
STOP POSTING FASTER THAN I CAN CITE SOURCES GAHHHH ////
Doesn't matter. The legality isn't being debated here. Nobody has said that this is illegal to do. Unreasonable. Yes. And common sense is not being applied. Therefore, the airlines will suffer in the long haul if the consumer is not happy flying.
Oh, it isn't? So all the people talking about their "rights," "invasion of privacy," and "probable cause" was just a hallucination? Whether or not it's legal is very important, and it's irresponsible to throw around the word "right" unless you know what it means. We're talking about a federal agency implementing a new policy. Its legality is crucial to the discussion, and, in fact, is most people's complaint.
That's your easy answer to a human with a legit concern? To just scream at her not to fly? Life isn't this black and white. But maybe yours is.
It IS that black and whtie. Nobody's FORCING you to fly in an airplane. It is not the only mode of travel out there. The national government has the RIGHT, as the Supreme Law of the Land, to regulate what security measures it wants on its airways. The national government's interest in security far outweighs your inconvenience and your wish to not be searched. If you do not want to be searched, do not fly on a commercial airliner. Furthermore, don't refer to them as a "consumer." This is not a private company who is concerned with profit margins. This is the Division of Homeland Security. If, as a citizen, you have legitimate complaints with legal standing, feel free to inform your representatives and senators and have them address the matter as you see fit. Beyond that, no, the DHS does not give a crap whether or not you're "happy" with them - nor should they! That's not their job description! [q=RattyPatty]
I would also like to know where 78% of americans approving this came from if you don't mind.
I found a poll on CBS the other day. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20022876-503544.html[/q] The poll is from Gallup, without a doubt the most prestigious polling organization in the U.S. [url=http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2010-01-11-security-poll_n.htm]Poll.[/url]
Reminder: if this thread disintegrates into anything but a respectful discussion of opinions, I'll lock it. It was on the Teacher's Board for a reason. It was moved by moderators out here to invite more discussion. Not my choice. I don't post out here for very specific reasons.
You're not a mod and you don't make that call. And thanks, I'm the one that modded it!
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Heart
On 11/21/2010 21:38:38
WHO APPROVES APPOINTEES TO THE CABINET? Hint: The Senate. WHO ELECTS THE SENATE? Hint: WE THE PEOPLE! ARE TSA AGENTS POLICE OFFICERS? Hint: They're not. See "border searches," previously mentioned twice. WHAT WOULD BE THE IMPLICATIONS OF TELLING A FOREIGN PRIVATELY-OWNED COMPANY IN A FOREIGN NATION TO COMPLY TO OUR NATIONAL REGULATIONS? Hint: Well shoot, hands on the car and spread 'em, 'cause I don't wanna find out.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On 11/21/2010 21:43:19
I had another member warn me in PM where the thread would go after it was moved to the open boards. I told her I'd lock it. She told me they'd unlock it. And I did. So they did. I don't do fighting just to fight. But I know that some people LOVE that stuff. So have at it, new angry people on this thread. Have fun fighting each other. I'll see all of you reasonable adult people back on the teacher and the SO boards. Sianora!
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By SaraTheGrouch
On 11/21/2010 21:48:13
Oh squee, that was so mature of you! Don't stomp away too hard, you may crack the floor.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Heart
On 11/21/2010 21:48:55
I would love to see where Sara or I made a statement that was in any way off-topic or derogatory [i]until you started in on us...[/i] because you weren't responding to the points (dare I say, facts?) we were stating. Maturity at its best!
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/21/2010 22:03:19
[q=slice]
Have children? Don't fly!
Finally a reason to keep annoying children off of airplanes! [Kidding! But I couldn't resist.] [/q] Lol virtual high five for that one!
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By RattyPatty
On 11/21/2010 22:06:54
Let's look at this in a new way. Say the TSA takes away all the body scanners and gets rid of the new pat downs, and then lets say some terrorists taped explosive ingredients onto their legs and wore baggy pants. They then made it into the airport, and proceeded to take the lives of thousands. Now this incident could have easily been prevented with the new technology that WAS implemented but taken away. Lets face it, the likeliness of the TSA taking away this new technology is very very minuscule, because it would open an even larger debate dealing with a new set ethics. Would it be better to prevent the deaths of a large amount of people, or should the duty of protecting citizens be put on the back burner because some people feel uncomfortable?
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Heart
On 11/21/2010 23:53:13
Courts (esp. of American Supreme nature) give huge leniency to the government. When there is NOT a fundamental right in question. Sometimes privacy is fundamental (abortion), and sometimes it's not (searches). {This determines the level of judicial "test" put to the case which is not even relevant BUT ANYWAY.} Fundamental right at stake = unless CRUCIAL government interest that could not be handled any other way, Court sides w. individual {They're big on finding alternative solutions for things} Anything else at stake (i.e. "rational basis") = Court sides w. state/federal govt Issue that a legislative body could handle = Court gives ambiguous ruling (they don't like to MAKE law, just decide on them) Calling it right now - cases, if there are any, aren't going to make it past District Court. It's too compelling of an argument for the state (assuming any of those stories hold water, lololololol).
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By SaraTheGrouch
On 11/22/2010 00:11:04
How is this so Big Brother like? Nobody's getting wire tapped or micro chipped here. It's a more advanced x-ray machine and a more in depth pat down. We've all been getting x-rayed and patted down for years. Technology and terrorists are advancing, so why wouldn't you expect beefier security? It is as invasive as you let it become. If you think of it as necessary safety protocol, it's not going to bother you. If you think of it as a huge invasion of privacy and completely unnecessary, of course it's going to feel like pee in your cornflakes. Do I enjoy putting catheters in people? (old, young, conscious, unconscious alike) No! Do some of my patients think it's a complete violation of their personal space? Absolutely! But it's medically necessary for their health and it's part of my job, so we both get over it and move on. It's over in one, two, three, (just like the scan) and we all carry on about our business like nothing ever happened. It's all the same concept. When you're laying on your death bed, you're not going to remember back to the time you had to walk through an x-ray machine at the airport. Fight for something worth the memories.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Cien
On 11/22/2010 07:38:50
It is as invasive as you let it become. If you think of it as necessary safety protocol, it's not going to bother you.
Oh, right, because it's entirely MY fault that I'm uncomfortable with a random stranger swiping their hand through my crotch to "keep me safe." They shouldn't have to draw the "security vs. personal boundaries" line anywhere, because hell, it's for our safety! ::rolls eyes:: Please. This is not keeping me any safer than I was before. It's not necessary like a catheter is for a patient, it's necessary because the government wants to look like they're doing something to keep them gosh darn terr'rists off our land! 'MERICA!
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By DancinDiva2005
On 11/22/2010 08:25:28
I remain unconvinced that these full body scanners actually protect us to the extent that TSA claims, particularly considering only a select handful of passengers travel through them. Likewise, I feel a pat down that includes a genital swipe is inappropriate and unnecessary - again, I remain unconvinced that it does anything to guarantee anyone's safety. It seems to me that there's always going to be that one person who gets around the extra security measures and leaves the government scrambling to make excuses and look for other inconveniences to convince us that this illusion of safety exists. It doesn't, and nothing TSA does or doesn't do will ever change that. If the risk were as great as they state it, there are already dangerous individuals getting past the security checkpoints. If it's as small as I suspect, the enhanced security is a waste of time and taxpayer's money. But the bottom line is that there always has been, is, and always will be a risk - great or small. And the only ones TSA is fooling, I believe, are themselves.
Agreed. That's basically what I said a few pages back. I also don't think it helps that our security measures are being blasted all over the internet either. If someone wants to make it through the security..they will FIND a way through. Especially with all of the loopholes. Is TSA trained what to do if they do find someone with materials to make an explosive on their person? What if they blow something up right there in the airport? I also don't know why all these extra security measures are only being done on planes. IMO, the terrorists are probably working on getting something planned for another form of transportation or something else entirely. Something that we're not expecting. As someone else mentioned earlier, [b]terrorists look for the grey area[/b]. They find it and use it to their advantage, and then feed off the chaos and panic that they've created. *sigh* Carry on...
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By DefyingGravity
On 11/22/2010 08:58:06
Why hello! I just had the in-depth pat down yesterday when I was flying out of SFO. I was randomly selected for the scatter whatever machine and refused it (I'll be honest — it was because I wanted to see this pat down in action. I couldn't care less about someone seeing an outline of my boobies and chub). Anyways... It was very similar to the old pat down. Yes, the woman used the gloved front of her hand, but it was a quick swipe down each leg and arm, a quick swipe down my back, a quick swipe across my upper chest, a quick swipe on my abdomen, then ONE finger under each boob and ONE finger on my underwear outline — yes, through my legs, but not touching my vagina or grabbing my ass. It was one finger. There was no groping, there was no vagina swipe, no fondling of anyone's junk. I didn't feel violated, the woman was very professional and explained everything she was doing, and I went along my merry way in the same amount of time — or less — than I used to. Granted, I was wearing a tank top and skinny jeans with flip flops, so maybe's it's a more intrusive pat-down if you have fat rolls and are wearing baggy clothes (hey, it's true. There are more places to hide things when one has fat rolls and baggy clothes). I don't know. But for me it was quick, easy, and to the point. Really, MAJOR over reactions going on here. If you've had the old pat down, this one isn't traumatizingly worse. Really.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By PogMoGillies
On 11/22/2010 09:01:42
I think a large part of the 78% approval was because they asked people while showing them modified pictures, before anyone was asked to go through the new measures. It will be interesting to see the change if they polled again after this weekend, when a greater percentage of the population will have personally experienced this, or be within only one degree of separation from someone who has. Until this weekend, this was all theoretical, which means that many people are making assumptions, because there was little fact to base this on. As for my earlier comments- I was well aware that terrorists would find the same loopholes that I was pointing out. I can forsee a future where people will post an add, and assemble a small group of travelers who need to go to the same location at the same time. They will pool together to rent a small plane and pilot, and leave from a regional airport, which has NO security. Can terrorists do the same thing? Of course they can. That's the problem. Someone bent on using airline travel for terror will find a way around any security measures that are implemented. As for everyone who is freaking out about those who suggest not flying. There are choices. Most of us who travel to see family include a full travel day to get to our destination and a full day to get home. No you can't get cross country in 5 hours the way you can on a plane, but you get there. I just searched what it would have taken to get to my Oireachtas (regional Irish Dance competition) by plane, car, bus, and train. This 1200 mile trip is a 2.5 hour flight, a 17 hour car ride, a 25 hour bus ride, and a 31 hour train ride. Yes, it's long and boring, but you're there. if more and more people begin using the bus and train again, creating more damand, then the supply will improve. Air travel is a convenience. If it becomes too inconvenient, then people will stop using it. Businesses have already moved to far more teleconfrences then ever, because it's cheaper to do it that way.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Trout
On 11/22/2010 10:27:10
A brief history of airport security... TSA GONE WILD! http://graphjam.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/tsa-gone-wild.jpeg I just glanced through all the replies and looked at the attached images. Brief opinion: those scans aren't bad at all. It's not like airport security is getting their jollies from searching you for weapons. Also, my "naked" body won't be the first or last one seen and it's not as though it's different from any other human's body who has ever existed. You're a human, you have a body, it's nothing special. If doing full body scans can result in safer flights, then by all means, scan me up.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Cien
On 11/22/2010 14:29:10
The YouTube link to the SNL skit got taken off by NBC, so I thought I'd put it up again: http://www.hulu.com/watch/194728/saturday-night-live-message-from-tsa#s-p2-sr-i1 Love it.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By KeepOnSingin
On 11/22/2010 15:23:53
The thought of either bothers me immensely, but mostly because it is completely exposing you [i]in public[/i]! There's a good chance that I'll be flying in December or January (and if not then, in March), and I'll be in big airports, so I may be subjected to this, and that does not sit well with me.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Trout
On 11/22/2010 16:14:32
^It's not like they put the image up on a giant screen for everyone to see. To me "completely exposed in public" means making you get up on a stage and strip down to nothing while everyone watches. Definitely not what is happening here. I guess I really don't understand what the huge deal is. Then again, this is coming from someone who has been involved in the medical field for the past six years. I think my opinion would be similar to the people who operate these full body scan machines. I've seen so many butts and boobs and naked bodies, they all look essentially the same in the long run. Whenever I have to see someone's private parts it doesn't even phase me. It's just another crotch, nothing special. I'm sure the security people hold a similar point of view. However with them, it's not even [i]really[/i] looking at a naked body. It's a [b]computerized image[/b] of a naked body. Way different. Also, these people will be looking for weapons, not focusing on how your butt looks. For those of you who are so concerned about being "exposed," be warned that god forbid you end up in a hospital, you're going to have to expose a lot more than just a scanned image from afar. Just saying.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By d4j
On 11/22/2010 20:40:15
^Oh goodness, that's so completely different that it's not a fair comparison. Today on the radio I heard a discussion that said that terrorists could have bomb stuff surgically implanted and so it wouldn't show up on a scan or a pat down. Eek!
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By DancinDiva2005
On 11/22/2010 21:46:38
^Yeah, I was thinking that as well (second half of your comment). I wouldn't put it past them.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Heart
On 11/22/2010 22:31:12
Well, let's all give the terrorists some more ideas, why don't we! *facepalm* PS: die capslock filter! you are killing my DRAMATIC EMPHASIS
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By d4j
On 11/22/2010 23:49:42
Well, let's all give the terrorists some more ideas, why don't we!
Yea right, like the terrorists never would have thought of that on their own... :?
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By pondfly
On 11/23/2010 01:18:26
I have no problem with the full body scanner as I've done twice in the last month. I also know that I get looked over twice as I have surgically implanted devices, so I just hand them my card and walk through.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By tumblebug
On 11/23/2010 08:12:57
^ You can get cards? I don't believe my dad has one, not that he flies often anyway. My dad would be one to make the news- ex-marine with a very short temper. If someone attempted to do to him what I've seen in those videos he would break their neck and not think twice :/.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By d4j
On 11/23/2010 08:52:14
^My sister has some kind of medical card (she has a metal clip in her head from an aneurism).
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By SaraTheGrouch
On 11/23/2010 15:58:38
Yes, youre supposed to get a card. And an update: Just went through security at an international airport and nothing here has changed. Same procedure, same amount of time as was last month. No ball/ass grabbing here. Maybe I'll have better luck getting a happy ending at JFK on Monday.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By aerial
On 11/24/2010 20:44:37
Maybe I'll have better luck getting a happy ending at JFK on Monday.
That made my night complete!
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By SaraTheGrouch
On 11/25/2010 18:27:19
No, I didn't. Don't you think I would've reported it if I had??
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Rose
On 11/26/2010 16:52:53
. . . For Your Information
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Ginger
On 11/26/2010 18:24:09
Yeah, I googled a bit and found this source: http://www.dailysquib.co.uk/?c=124&a=2389
DENVER - USA - A full body scanner operator was caught masturbating during a scanning session by airport staff late Tuesday. Airport officials at Denver International airport were on high alert yesterday when a full body scanner operator was caught masturbating in his booth as a team of High School netball players went through the scanner. "The young ladies were going through the scanner one by one, and every time one went through, this guys face was getting redder and redder. His hand was moving and then he started sweating. He was then seen doing his 'O' face. That's when the security dragged him out of his booth and cuffed him. He had his pants round his ankles and everybody was really disgusted," Jeb Rather, a passenger on a flight to New York told CBS news. The controversial scanners display every minute detail of a person's body and have been called intrusive by privacy campaigners. Body scanners penetrate clothing to provide a highly detailed image so accurate that critics have likened it to a virtual porn shoot. Technologies vary, with millimeter wave systems capturing highly detailed pictures of genitals, and backscatter X-ray machines able to show precise anatomical detail. The U.S. government likes the idea because body scanners can detect concealed weapons better than traditional magnetometers. "What do you want to do, get blown up by a goddamn Arab at 30,000 feet or we get to see your private parts? It's up to you, the ball's in your park," head of the TSA's scanning department, Rodney Schroeder, told CNN.
I'm pretty sure it's satire too- I mean, look at the other headlines on that page! Plus, what would a high school netball team be doing going to Denver??????
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Heart
On 11/26/2010 20:16:51
The Daily Squib is a curious satirical publication and should therefore be taken fu**ing seriously ;)
From the bottom of their main page. In addition, SNOPES BEFORE YOU POST! [url=http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/scanner.asp]Snopes says FALSE.[/url] It's basically like citing The Onion. (Also a satirical "news" source, children.) And [i]failblog???[/i] Come on now, you're not even trying!
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By tumblebug
On 11/27/2010 21:00:22
Just in time for the Holidays; a 'must have' under your Xmas tree.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Celebrian
On 11/28/2010 08:42:14
^That video pissed me off, Helen, but I think that agent was female. She is just kind of mannish looking probably because of the bullet-proof vest she's wearing under her uniform and her haircut is quite short.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Heart
On 11/28/2010 09:43:11
That breast milk video is horrendous. Just want to point out that it is from February 2010 (first posted in May 2010 as several separate videos, then compiled into one recently by Armato's brother). The woman in the video is Stacey Armato, a lawyer from Los Angeles who flies from Pheonix to LA once a week. She filed a complaint with the TSA, but none of the staff in the video have been disciplined, to her knowledge. She has yet to find a lawyer to represent her in a lawsuit against the TSA (which sounds ridiculous to me, she certainly has one hell of a case!). Though I agree with Celebrian - the person conducting the pat-down is definitely a woman. Additional info: http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/politics/nbsp-nbsp.html http://www.sustainablemothering.com/ http://www.menwithfoilhats.com/2010/11/x-ray-nation-tsa-glass-box-mother-over-stored-breast-milk/
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On 11/28/2010 19:18:23
What is part of the whole problem with the new procedures is in part illustrated by situations such as the one above. Although it was not posted after the new procedures the problem is that there are so many TSA agents out there are management officials who don't follow the guidelines and in some cases don't even know and understand all guidelines. It makes me wonder who's watching who's watching us?
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By SaraTheGrouch
On 11/29/2010 04:42:31
People forget that TSA employees are federal employees. They are background checked just like the rest. They're not just Joe Schmo off the street, though most people like to think they are. But anyway, I write you from seat 24F, at JFK airport in NYC - one of the largest and busiest airports in the country. I regret to inform you that there are no nudiscanners here and the only people getting the standard old run in the mill pat down are the ones who consistantly beep going through the metal detector. AS ALWAYS. I'm sincerely upset that I didn't get my happy ending.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By tumblebug
On 12/02/2010 19:57:20
http://news.travel.aol.com/2010/12/02/blond-in-lingerie-and-wheelchair-gets-extensive-tsa-pat-down-in/?icid=maing|main5|4|link2|28959
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Wicked_Elphaba
On 12/04/2010 00:03:38
Has anyone seen the TSA pin-up calendar? It's hawt!!!!! http://www.gadling.com/2010/11/29/the-miss-tsa-pinup-calendar/ BTW.......PG-13 photos.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Heart
On 12/04/2010 00:15:03
Oh, please. I have these bookmarked from earlier this year. I love them though! These images were made by medical imaging firm EIZO as part of an ad campaign devised by the German agency BUTTER. It's won awards and such (rightly so!). They ARE making a 2011 version, but alas, only for distribution in Germany. http://www.advertolog.com/eizo/print-outdoor/pin-up-calendar-2010-13713805/ http://www.eizo.de/eizo-webshop/zubehoer-38-merchandising/merchandising/Kalender_2011.html {Sorry. Don't mean to be so nerdy. I just saw them and was like NO WAY!}
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By amichelle523
On 12/04/2010 00:45:02
To inject a little humor into a pretty serious subject, I present to you the case of Percy Cummings: [url=http://www.deadseriousnews.com/?p=573]Man arrested after ejaculating during TSA pat-down[/url] [spoiler]For the gullible (such as myself), please realize that this is COMPLETELY FICTIONAL AND FOR AMUSEMENT PURPOSES ONLY. Though it is rather fascinating to contemplate.[/spoiler]
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Lev_Nougol
On 01/26/2011 14:31:41
Now if they start requiring a full nude patdown and cavity search for every passenger, I might protest ;)
I think I know a few people that would start volunteering.
To inject a little humor into a pretty serious subject, I present to you the case of Percy Cummings:
Not that I know that particular individual...but I rest my case lol.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By poko
On 03/14/2011 07:28:29
* Note, I couldn't be bothered reading all 10 pages of comments, so apologies in advance if I missed something! I fly a lot in Australia... and the only "random" checks we have here, are bomb/substance testing...where they just run something over your bag, and 30 seconds later...you are good to go. When I flew in Nepal...EVERYONE got a patdown. They didn't have any scanners or detectors...as you stood on the tarmac waiting to get on the plane, they had a male line and a female line. Female lined got patted down by a female official, men by a male official.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By fairy_dust
On 03/15/2011 15:59:24
I don't see what the big deal is with the full patdown - it's done for security reasons and always by a security guard of your own gender. I would choose that over the nudie scanner. Besides, if the standard patdown is like the one in this vid (at 4:30), there isn't much more they can add to it to make it more "obscene" or "borderline sexual harassment": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xImXrPURzxE

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