Forum: Arts / Debates

Page:
Page 2 of 10: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Triskitmember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 05:56 PM
^ Exactly, it's a major invasion of privacy and done without probable cause.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By RattyPattymember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 07:24 PM
I quite prefer to not be blown up on an airplane, so I don't mind the extra minutes it takes for a scan. My airport has had these machines for a while now, so I've done them a few times. I've also been pat down numerous times, and I find that the 30 seconds of feeling uncomfortable is worth the sense of security. The pictures aren't very detailed and the workers look through thousands daily, so I'm pretty sure they don't care about your seemingly naked body. Have you ever been to a beach, or a swimming pool? Have you ever worn a swim suit or a leotard? I don't think it's too much different. In the end a human body is a human body. You may feel uncomfortable for a minute or two, but generally when travelling, you forget about this once you face the task of searching for your terminal and etc.
I also don't understand why this is causing such dissension in terms of privacy. We're living in a world where people post their feelings and thoughts and many other personal things on the internet, yet get upset about the possibility of a smudgy x-ray picture.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down? (karma: 1)
By Heartmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 07:34 PM
Edited by Heart (21721) on 2010-11-19 19:35:53
Exactly, it's a major invasion of privacy and done without probable cause.

Wrong on both counts. First of all, this is not an "invasion of privacy." When a Court is deliberating a case like these, they do what's called a "balancing test." First of all, the "right to privacy" is not an enumerated right (listed in the Constitution); it can be a fundamental right in some cases. The court considers whether the law in question can be rationally related to a legitimate and compelling government interest. If the interest of the government outweighs the importance of the right in question, the law in question is upheld.

First of all, 78% of Americans agree with these new policies; at least, with the full-body scanners. Gallup Polls

Second. The government has a compelling interest in not having their airplanes, civilians, and federal buildings blown up. It far, far outweighs citizen's rights to walk through some detectors and have their baggage searched.

Third. In Michigan v. Sitz, the US Supreme Court held that checkpoints, random stops, etc. are perfectly legal. In New Jersey v. TLO, the Court held that law enforcement officers do not always need a warrant or even probable cause. They do require "reasonable suspicion," which is a much lower standard. "Border searches," which include airport searches, do not even require this standard, allowing for random searches; for case law, see United States v. Flores-Montano. Such searches are exempt of reasonable suspicion simply because they occur at the border (or in an airport, etc).

Quite simply, the integrity of the airways is more important than your not wanting to be frisked, or exposed to a brief dose of radiation, or having someone see your Barbie-like nude form. And 78% of America agrees.

FURTHERMORE.

The videos that you had posted are not the new TSA body pat downs that they use in the airports. They are a standard pat down used by police and before this was instituted about a week ago, however, they do in fact feel around your breasts and a man's groin area as well. I doubt you will find a video of the current scans but I will try.

I read the descriptions and I don't mind it one bit. Have you guys considered WHY the searches are the way they are?

Think about it. If you were smuggling drugs, weapons, or other forms of contraband, where on your body would you hide it?

Girls would tuck it in their bras.
Both guys and girls would slip it in their underpants.
As I previously stated, the waistline is an extremely likely place for weapons to be held. So is the inner thigh. I personally know someone who taped drugs on their inner thigh and smuggled them on a trip.


I've been searched in such a manner - strip searched, actually - yes, even had to hold my undies out - and it didn't bother me at all. The people searching me had seen it dozens of times, and I fully understood why it was taking place. It was for my own good and I was okay with that.



I think this article explains it best:

A supervisor comes over, explains the groin check and tells Tyner, according to the cell-phone recording: "If you're not comfortable with that, we can escort you back out and you don't have to fly today."


If you make the choice to fly on an airline, for your own good, that's you're going to have to deal with to get on the plane. If you don't like it, don't fly.

I also agree with this:

He blames the TSA for doing a poor job of explaining the new searches to the public.

"The dilemma they are in is if they explain too much, they risk scaring the public," he added. "I think it's a small liberty to give up for the safety of all."


If the public understood WHY the TSA needs to feel their groin, they'd shut the hell up about it. That's why people hide things there - they don't think anyone is going to check. The only way to protect against that is to do a body scan or to search.

And it's not sexual molestation because it's not sexual. I don't feel raped when I go for my pelvic and breast exam. I didn't feel sexually exploited when I was being searched. It's their job and they do it with a professional demeanor.


People just don't think like criminals. To protect our security, the government has to. Honestly, I wish every form of public transportation was given the same amount of security airlines are given.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By DefyingGravityPremium member
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 07:37 PM
I asked the radiologists at work about the safety concerns and they said the amount of radiation was nothing compared to what I'm exposed to at work during portable XRays, lol. They said I could go through the new TSA machine thousands of times and it would probably equate to a normal couple weeks at work... I guess that's what I get for being around portable XRay machines all the time!

As for what they see... I couldn't care less if some random person sees the outline of my boobs. Who cares?!
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By DancinDiva2005member has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 07:51 PM
Edited by DancinDiva2005 (17591) on 2010-11-19 19:52:25 added something
I feel that if someone wanted to sneak something onto a plane, they'd find a way to do it, regardless of scans and all that. I feel that a lot of this "extra security" is just for show.

Again, if someone was going to sneak something onto a plane, they'd find a way to do it.

And I definitely agree with the poster who said that children also need to be searched as well because if not, children will be the new carriers.

Also, I feel that if we continue to be "OK" with all these new security measures, the bar will just continue to raise. How many "security measures" are we going to be willing to accept?
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Sumayah
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 07:58 PM
Image hotlink - 'http://bureaucrash.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/tsa_body_scan.jpg'

Sorry, I actually don't go to the beach or the pool, I don't wear bathing suits. And you can't see that kind of detail through a leotard. Yes a body is a body, but really, is this necessary? Frankly I can't describe how unhappy and pissed off I'd be if I had to go through that. Maybe I'm petty, but I have I hard enough time flying as it is (I have a major fear of flying) and if I had to either choose being seen naked on a monitor by random person X or getting felt up by security person Z, I'd probably burst into tears, rip my ticket up, and go home. Yes, it would be that big a deal for me. It's hard enough forcing myself on the plane yet alone having to deal with that. I'd almost rather my plane explode than have to put up with all the security measures just to get on it.

As I said earlier this subject pisses me off.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By DancinDiva2005member has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 08:13 PM
^Haven't seen those images before. The ones I've been seeing look like this:

Image hotlink - 'http://www.cristyli.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Full-Body-Imaging-Scanners.jpg'


But either way...uh. No thanks.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 08:18 PM
I think they are a little more revealing than the pic that was provided in the earlier post. This is one I found online. TMI.

I'm still voting for the pat down.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down? (karma: 1)
By d4jmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 08:32 PM
It's not wrong, Heart. It may not be a legal 'right', but for me as a citizen, but it is PERSONALLY an invasion of privacy for me. I'm not stating that I have a right to it in the legal sense, but I certain have the right of choice, meaning, I won't be choosing to undergo either procedure.

Also:

If the public understood WHY the TSA needs to feel their groin, they'd shut the hell up about it.


^This statement is condescending. Most people, including myself, understand completely why they have to search the way that they do and in the locations that they do. It doesn't mean I have to like it. As I said, I have never said I'm AGAINST this, I'm just not willing at the moment to go through it myself.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By shannon13
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 08:48 PM
I flew 2 weeks ago from Charlotte to Boston and then back. It was right after they added the new scanners and the new pat down rules. I was worried but I did not have to go through either thank goodness. I would have chosen the scanner though.

I saw a news piece on a guy who wouldn't go through with the pat down and faced some kind of charges for leaving the area trying to get on a plane. They said the don't do pat downs for childer under 12. They do need to figure out something for kids or they will start using kids for these "missions".
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By RattyPattymember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 08:58 PM
Yes a body is a body, but really, is this necessary?

Why would the TSA spend millions of dollars putting in these machines if it was not necessary? Unfortunately people do smuggle in weapons and explosives, and the TSA has a duty to protect travelers. A lot of incidents have been prevented by the security measures of the TSA, and when problems do arise, the blame is almost always on TSA and airport personnel for not having high enough security. If dangerous events can be prevented with this new technology, it would almost be wrong to not use it.

Thankfully flying is not required and it's completely the choice of the individual to buy the ticket and proceed with checking in and security checks.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 09:07 PM
There is SUCH a public outcry, I have to wonder if it won't further hurt an already ailing airline industry.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Eireannmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 09:33 PM
I flew from Vancouver to NY a couple weeks ago, before the new rules I believe, but I knew that a scan or a pat was a possibility - always is, when you fly (we've had the scanners at YVR since before the Olympics last winter). I would've gone with the scan, and then just hustled a little faster to make my connection.

I'll fly reasonably frequently for work, and always to the eastern US, so I imagine at some point I'll be stopped. The whole matter is of more interest to me as a crisis management situation for the TSA PR team, honestly.

Mostly, I'm really looking forward to this whole new, "don't touch my junk!" thing to die down. When one is monitoring social media channels for your company, the number of jokers who think using 1-800-GOT-JUNK? as part of a punchline gets old really, really quickly.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Kekoamember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:11 PM
Flying is a privilege, not a right. Thankfully this board has been pretty tame, but I've seen people absolutely up in arms over this. Guess what? Nobody's making you fly. It's not a mandatory activity. I fully understand the issues people have with these new procedures (and I don't necessarily disagree), but many people are being jerks about it. I've been reading online that Wednesday is going to be an "official" day to protest it by refusing both procedures at the airport, and that's SO unfair to all the other passengers who don't want to spend three times as long going through security.

That being said, I'm fine with both procedures but am flying on Thursday and will choose the scan. However, if I got flagged for a pat down I wouldn't be bothered. If I was in the tiny percentage of people who were searched inappropriately, I'd report the agent and sue. However, the chances of that happening are tiny.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:20 PM
Edited by OkinawaDancing (223602) on 2010-11-19 22:29:36
d4j wrote:

It's not wrong, Heart. It may not be a legal 'right', but for me as a citizen, but it is PERSONALLY an invasion of privacy for me. I'm not stating that I have a right to it in the legal sense, but I certain have the right of choice, meaning, I won't be choosing to undergo either procedure.

Also:

If the public understood WHY the TSA needs to feel their groin, they'd shut the hell up about it.


^This statement is condescending. Most people, including myself, understand completely why they have to search the way that they do and in the locations that they do. It doesn't mean I have to like it. As I said, I have never said I'm AGAINST this, I'm just not willing at the moment to go through it myself.


I agree it is condescending. I am very aware of what the TSA is trying to do and so is most of the Americans that are opposed to this. The fact is that as americans (yes I am an american citizen) need security but more security does not mean better security. What people need to understand is that the acts of people like the shoe bomber and the under ware bomber is to do just what they have done, put the country in a panic and change the ways that we do everything.

You also need to remember Heart, we are not talking the right to not have to open my suitcase we are talking about the right to not be touched in "sensitive" or "intimate" areas as well as not have your naked self on a screen. There is a HUGE difference here. Wearing a bathing suit to the beach is not the same as this.

I agree with Dance Diva the issue here is how much are we willing to accept. No shoes, no drinks now full body scans. How long before it's strip searches for everyone? Safety is one thing, however, there is a line. In the US a lot of people tend to think that without these measures people are going to blow planes up all the time and "how can we live without it" meanwhile there are a number of other countries that don't manage to have to go to these lengths to achieve the high level of security that they have so what is that US doing wrong here? I think we are trying to show off and using our "free nation" to do so. FYI: The gentleman who put the whole scanner movement into motion (whose name is escaping me right now, I will have to update this post when I get it again) is the same person who is part of the panel legal responsible for moving these products. . . consistence?

KeKoa-
I do also understand where you are coming from and I agree it is not a right to fly. What I disagree with is the new guilty until proven innocent stance that is being taken. Most of the people passing through airport security and many times those who are flagged for a scan/pat down are not criminals and are not trying to do anything except get where they are going so in my opinion treating everyone as if they are a criminal is unacceptable. I certainly agree if you don't like it, don't fly which is where I stand right now but I just don't think that it's fair to put people in that position.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By DancinDiva2005member has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:27 PM
Edited by DancinDiva2005 (17591) on 2010-11-19 22:30:26
www.msnbc.msn.com . . .

^Says the pat-downs are more invasive and the TSA officer is now able to use their hands near the genitalia and breasts.
It also shows a list of all the US airports with the scanners currently in place.


Also, how are the airports getting funding for these machines? I understand the reasoning, but just curious where the money is coming from. These can't be cheap...

re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:32 PM
DancinDiva2005 wrote:

www.msnbc.msn.com . . .

^Says the pat-downs are more invasive and the TSA officer is now able to use their hands near the genitalia and breasts.
It also shows a list of all the US airports with the scanners currently in place.


Also, how are the airports getting funding for these machines? I understand the reasoning, but just curious where the money is coming from. These can't be cheap...



I know right?
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By DancinDiva2005member has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:39 PM
Edited by DancinDiva2005 (17591) on 2010-11-19 22:39:57
Edited by DancinDiva2005 (17591) on 2010-11-19 22:42:26
Edited by DancinDiva2005 (17591) on 2010-11-19 22:42:45
Edited by DancinDiva2005 (17591) on 2010-11-19 22:51:15
Oh niiiiiice...front page of msn.com

www.msnbc.msn.com . . .
"TSA forces cancer survivor to show prosthesis"


and then further down that same article:

Sharon Kiss, 66, has a pacemaker, but also has to fly often for her work.

"During a recent enhanced pat-down, a screener cupped my breasts and felt my genitals," she said in an e-mail to msnbc.com "To 'clear my waistband' she put her hands down my pants and groped for the waistband of my underwear.

"I expressed humiliation and was told 'You have the choice not to fly.' "



Edit: According to the video at the bottom, at the beginning of the new year, pilots won't have to go through the new scanners or pat-down procedures because of the massive amounts of complaints from them.



Image hotlink - 'http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Slideshows/_production/_archive/Cartoons/ss-101117-travel/ss-101117-travel-01.grid-8x2.jpg'


re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:47 PM
OkinawaDancing wrote:

KeKoa- I do also understand where you are coming from and I agree it is not a right to fly. What I disagree with is the new guilty until proven innocent stance that is being taken.


Tagging on to your thought, there are also plenty of people who have to fly because of their jobs. They may be able to opt out of recreational travel, but not for work.

I also read that they will in fact do the "enhanced patdown" on all children 13+, that don't go through the scanner.

THAT, I'm not okay with. If I opt out of being seen naked, that's my choice. But if I don't want my kid seen naked OR have his groin swiped by some random man's palm/fingers, then there will be issues for me and air travel.

The pat down that I had in the past did not include fingers in my crotch. That's a whole other ball of wax.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:51 PM
^That is unbelievable.

It's just another example of how this was not thought out. There are so many issues that could come up when there is something like this that is put into place. This was not thought through it's as simple as that.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By dancemomtoo
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:55 PM
I think some posters have misunderstood the nature of 'enhanced' pat downs now being conducted.

In fact, the TSA agents DO run the palms of their hands over women's breasts-they can arbitrarily decide to do it UNDERNEATH the clothing. They have LIFTED up a woman's breast to see if she was 'concealing anything underneath the breast. They have required a cancer survivor to remove and show her prosthesis to them. They have also stuck their hand down inside womens' pants-in addition to feeling up to and over their crotches outside their clothes and between their legs.

Men have had similar invasions of their privacy.

Children as young as 3 have been subjected to enhanced pat downs. Young boys wearing loose basketball shorts have had TSA agents go up inside their shorts a tug on their scrotum.

This clearly is an invasion of privacy. It is NOT narrowly drawn. Certain religious groups are already demanding special treatment and Napolitano, when asked a direct question about whether these demands would be accommodated, answered that the situation was evolving. If it was truly necessary to conduct these searches there would be NO chance that any group would possibly receive special treatment.

When we have people on a terrorist watch list and we do not put them on a list for higher screening at airports-the entire process is a joke.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:07 PM
dancemomtoo wrote:

Certain religious groups are already demanding special treatment and Napolitano, when asked a direct question about whether these demands would be accommodated, answered that the situation was evolving. If it was truly necessary to conduct these searches there would be NO chance that any group would possibly receive special treatment.


Yes, I have read that there is a movement to elimnnate Islamic women in hijabs from having to go through the scanners or have the pat down.

If cancer survivors are going to start to have to send their prosthesis through the the xray belt, that will be a whole new constituency of people pissed beyond pissed.

I will bet that after this holiday travel season the flying public is going to get very vocal and we may see some modifications in the near future.

The pilots union already was vocal enough to have them be able to bypass both the scanner and the pat down, effective immediately.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By DancinDiva2005member has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:12 PM
Edited by DancinDiva2005 (17591) on 2010-11-19 23:14:16
dancemomtoo wrote:



This clearly is an invasion of privacy. It is NOT narrowly drawn. Certain religious groups are already demanding special treatment and Napolitano, when asked a direct question about whether these demands would be accommodated, answered that the situation was evolving. If it was truly necessary to conduct these searches there would be NO chance that any group would possibly receive special treatment.

When we have people on a terrorist watch list and we do not put them on a list for higher screening at airports-the entire process is a joke.


Amen.

Just because you have some sort of religious problem with it doesn't mean you should be free of the humiliation that everyone else has to go through.
That's how we get problems in the first place..all these exceptions and loopholes that people find.

That's another reason why I have a problem with this. Those same people who found a way out of it before all of this are going to find a way out of it again..and it's going to end up just being your regular Joe Shmoe who has to go through the scanners.


Edit:
When I was in Europe and the UK this summer, I don't recall any countries over there having this level of "security".

Security is in quotes because I don't think it actually adds a whole lot of extra security..as I mentioned a few posts up. I think a lot of it is for show.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:15 PM
i_am_me wrote:

dancemomtoo wrote:

Certain religious groups are already demanding special treatment and Napolitano, when asked a direct question about whether these demands would be accommodated, answered that the situation was evolving. If it was truly necessary to conduct these searches there would be NO chance that any group would possibly receive special treatment.


Yes, I have read that there is a movement to elimnnate Islamic women in hijabs from having to go through the scanners or have the pat down.

If cancer survivors are going to start to have to send their prosthesis through the the xray belt, that will be a whole new constituency of people pissed beyond pissed.

I will bet that after this holiday travel season the flying public is going to get very vocal and we may see some modifications in the near future.

The pilots union already was vocal enough to have them be able to bypass both the scanner and the pat down, effective immediately.


So that the flight attendant union.

The thing that stands out most to me, however, is how incredibly serious this matter must be which is pressing us to change security if we are giving so many people free tickets out of the checkpoints. We can pretend the reason is for this or that but I at least feel that with all of the "oops I'm sorry" moves is just showing that this is more about pushing boundaries with the american people then protecting them.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By kandykanePremium member
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:19 PM
Edited by kandykane (157761) on 2010-11-19 23:20:47
Quoted from this article linked by Sumayah on page 1 www.msnbc.msn.com . . .

The American Association for Nude Recreation said it was offering a "Certificate of Achievement" for anyone who "proudly supports TSA body scanning measures."


Well, somebody found some humor in the situation. :?

I'm glad I'm not flying soon. I sure hope procedures are adjusted before I have to fly again. Otherwise, I'll just have to pray I don't get 'selected' or if I am unfortunate enough to be selected, I'll grit my teeth, do the scan and collect my certificate.

kk~
Page:
Page 2 of 10: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

ReplySendWatch

Powered by XP Experience Server.
Copyright ©1999-2021 XP.COM, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
XL
LG
MD
SM
XS
XL
LG
MD
SM
XS