Forum: Arts / Debates

Page:
Page 3 of 10: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:21 PM
DancinDiva2005 wrote:

dancemomtoo wrote:



This clearly is an invasion of privacy. It is NOT narrowly drawn. Certain religious groups are already demanding special treatment and Napolitano, when asked a direct question about whether these demands would be accommodated, answered that the situation was evolving. If it was truly necessary to conduct these searches there would be NO chance that any group would possibly receive special treatment.

When we have people on a terrorist watch list and we do not put them on a list for higher screening at airports-the entire process is a joke.


Edit:
When I was in Europe and the UK this summer, I don't recall any countries over there having this level of "security".

Security is in quotes because I don't think it actually adds a whole lot of extra security..as I mentioned a few posts up. I think a lot of it is for show.


I can speak for Japan and Korea. They are not like that here. Not even close.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By DancinDiva2005member has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:23 PM
Edited by DancinDiva2005 (17591) on 2010-11-19 23:24:14
Edited by DancinDiva2005 (17591) on 2010-11-19 23:25:43
^^KK, Well, they're required. Either the scan or the pat-down. If you refuse the scan, then you get the pat-down.

Yeah, I'm hoping this is all sorted out before I have to fly again too. :(
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By teenydanseur
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:24 PM
the new enhanced pat down DOES allow breasts and genitals to be touched, I think a lot of people are confusing the old pat down with the new "enhanced" one. I also have to say, I am sure this will be hard for a lot of victims of sexual assaults and molestation to have to swallow unnecessarily. As someone that WAS a victim of an assault, I don't even like sitting to close to men on the train, and the idea of being put in this situation is already giving me anxiety.

here is an interesting article for anyone to read,

www.thestar.com . . .

israel has a LOT more security threats than we do in the US and yet, they haven't had an attack in their airports in a long time, it takes 25 minutes MAX to go through their airport security, and they don't do ANY touching of a person. a lot of their security comes through specially trained security making a point to talk to people in the airport, and looking for queues that something is amiss.

you don't need invasive security to have effective enhanced security.

Also some people have been noticing that a lot of the people pulled to go through the scanners, have been young attractive women

www.universalhub.com . . .

the comments in the above thread have additional examples.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By hummingbird
On Fri Nov 19, 2010 11:50 PM
The big question here is do you wanna be safe on planes or not!

Because the air authorities can ditch all of these measures if you really feel that your privacy is too important to stop another plane high jacking.

Personally I would rather that a proper search had taken place before I got on the plane instead of having to make the cell phone calls that those people made on the 9/11 flights.

Just sayin!
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down? (karma: 2)
By highlandrebelmember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:05 AM
Edited by highlandrebel (182229) on 2010-11-20 00:07:03
^ Where is the proof that these measures are making us safer?
We should be looking into why terrorists are attacking us. Because no matter what measures we put in places they will find another way to complete their 'mission'.

Statistically your chances of being killed on a plane hijacked by terrorists is minuscule, even in countries with far less security measures.


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 01:42 AM
highlandrebel wrote:


We should be looking into why terrorists are attacking us.



What we need to understand is the intent of the terrorists. . . to terrorize us. They set things into place to make us scared and feel that we need to do things that compromise the things our nation stands for. Really, it's not about death it's about scare tactics and they are doing a good job (let's be honest).

The thing to also need to remember is that there is always risk in every situation. What we too often forget is that there is what happens when we put too many cooks on one pot. It is a proven fact that better security is not the direct result of more security just look at the other countries out there that are not doing things like this. If they want to do something to make people more safe they need to be more meticulous with what they already do not keep layering in systems and new policies.

9/11 was unfortunate and rare we need to be vigilant but not idiotic.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By LoriCook
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 02:31 AM
If someone professionally touching my body or giving me a scan keeps my plane from exploding in the air or running into a building I am 100% for it. Our past security screenings haven't kept bombs off of planes-it has been a matter of luck (and alert passengers) that we haven't had another 9/11. We need to get as secure as technology will allow. We needed to do it 9 years ago.

We also need to start educating our children that airport pat downs are a part of flying safety and the only people allowed to touch them in that way is the doctor and the TSA screener.

The amount of radiation in the full body scan is equal to the radiation you get flying at 30,000 for THREE MINUTES and is much less than a dental x-ray. Unless you are a frequent flyer it shouldn't pose any problem.

The people doing the pat downs are not "groping" they are not getting their jollies, they are protecting us from those who would kill us. They are sure to get loads of flack from passengers and I feel quite sorry for them having to do this task.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By DancingBeanermember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 02:54 AM
I don't care either way. Just whatever would get me to my gate the fastest!

These people are just doing their jobs and it's not a problem for doctors to give people physicals or see naked human beings. You can bet 100% that the individuals performing these tasks will have extensive background checks and extensive training in this area, so there so be no worry that one of the security officers aren't going to cop a feel. Also, do people not realize that they will be doing this day after day to thousands and thousands of people? I can guarantee you that there will be very few people that will ever stand out in their mind from their entire career.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By angelfish10member has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 02:59 AM
^Totally agree. I'm doing whichever is the fastest option! I don't want to stay at TSA any longer than I have to.

Besides, it would be kind of arrogant of me to assume that my body is anything special to the agent who either sees my scan or gives me the pat down. They do this literally all day long, so the fact that they're touching those parts of my body probably isn't even a big deal to them. They're not doing it with malicious intent, so I really don't care.

Besides, I've had dance teachers touching my thighs, hips, back stomach, feet, ankles, and almost everywhere else my whole life. I'm not saying any of them ever stuck their hand in my crotch or did anything else inappropriate, but I guess I'm just used to people putting their hands on me in a decidedly non-sexual way.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Lauretta
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 05:35 AM
I was randomly selected along with my boyfriend to have one of those nude scan things at Heathrow Airport and I went through with it simply because it was either that or not fly and lose out on my holiday. My bag was also tested for explosives, not sure that this was linked but hey, they're being extra thorough on me. I've also had the pat down search many times in my life and I can't say that it bothered me one bit.

Funnily enough, i've never been subject to any of this in America. I didn't set any of the machines off so no-one ever had the need to touch me at all. I'm quite surprised that you're allowed to opt out of the nude scanner in America, if I had to pick between American and English airports (before I visited America myself) as to which would be the most thorough, i'd pick the American airport without a doubt.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By imadanseurPremium member
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 06:19 AM
I am fine with either. I support any measures to keep our planes safer even if they are inconvenient. While some people say, "Where is the proof these measures will help safety?" my proof is that we haven't had a terrorist take over an airplane since 911 because we are making it more difficult. Can they find ways...of course, but why make it easy? My ex was a sky marshal and you would be amazed at the situations that are stopped because of airport security that you never ever hear about. While you think things aren't working, they are...you just don't hear about them because they don't want to freak out travelers and the airline industry cannot take another huge crash.

I know a guy that forgot he had live ammunition in a costume carry on bag (he reenacts war scenes for special events), and he never got stopped 3 or 4 times from Phoenix to LA. Lovely, so I support the TSA getting smarter people to run the scanners.

The only thing I DON'T ever want to see is mothers and kids split up while doing these security checks. I was flying with someone once that had that situation and have seen it. They take the mom and pat her down and the kid to another area, HELLO what is that all about. My friend was literally screaming, they threatened to take her to jail if she didn't calm down...and her little boy was 4 years old. The other scene I saw was a girl about 3 years old being pat down, they were trying to take off her coat, they wouldn't let her mother near her and she was crying. It was just awful. Finally one of the police men that was watching stepped in and was so sweet with this little girl and he got her mom to stand in front of her. She held his hat above her head (kind of made a game out of it) so that a female could do the back of the hand type pat down and all was well. Some people just don't know how to handle kids.

It's not a perfect world, and I hate that we have to do these kinds of things, but knowing a little more info than the average person because of my ex boyfriend, I fully support any security measure that will keep me safe because I love to fly. Driving makes me car sick, and buses take forever. I don't have a lot of time to travel and when I do I need it to be fast.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 07:08 AM
Edited by OkinawaDancing (223602) on 2010-11-20 07:12:14
Edited by OkinawaDancing (223602) on 2010-11-20 07:23:52
^^My sister was separated from the family when she was about 6 or 7 while my mother was collecting items from the x-ray thing and the rest of us were waiting to go through the machine. They basically stopped the rest of us and pushed my mother along while also pulling my sister aside to get a pat down. Of course it was just a basic one back then which was devastating enough can you imagine if it were what they are doing now? Not to mention how freaked out and helpless the rest of us felt. I mean can you see where she is going? no she is behind a wall, the TSA agents are holding me back and my mother was waiting for her up ahead so . . . ???

It's so true, some people don't know how to handle kids and honestly I am sure they are probably told that they should not be treating them any different than anyone else which in my honest opinion is a problem with the system. As much as I understand kids also need to be screened too I think that this is one of those situations where you need to be trained to handle it differently not to compromise any of the security but because to these kids it's like you're kidnapping them even for a brief moment in time. That's scary!

You are absolutely right, there are a lot of things that happen that they do not leak the public. There are also things that they leak to other media outlets but don't leak them to those of you in the US (which I have seen believe it or not). I think the biggest gripe, at least mine, comes down to a comment that you made about getting more qualified people to run the machines. I believe that technology and methods are only as effective as the people running them. You can catch more bad guys with one set of trained eyes than you can with three sets of untrained eyes and a lot of technology. I feel that America depends a little too much on technology when there should be a bit more focus on the proper usage and methods. Other countries such as Japan (I can not speak for Europe or others) are an illustration of this.



re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down? (karma: 1)
By TheMidlakeMusemember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 09:53 AM
It really ticks me off to see all these "touching my junk" jokes. Good for you that you've never been sexually assaulted and don't know how humiliating it is for a stranger to touch you in an unwanted way. Just don't do it at the expense of marginalizing abuse victims who can't think about being touched by a stranger without being physically ill.

I'm not flying until this madness is rescinded.

Dani
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down? (karma: 1)
By i_am_me
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:30 AM
TheMidlakeMuse wrote:

Good for you that you've never been sexually assaulted and don't know how humiliating it is for a stranger to touch you in an unwanted way. Just don't do it at the expense of marginalizing abuse victims who can't think about being touched by a stranger without being physically ill.


This opens a whole other bag of worms. What about all of the women who are still traumatized by sexual abuse from their past? PSTD trigger, anyone?

Or what if you're like Triskit who is diabetic and will ALWAYS have to go through a vaginal stroking to fly?

All people that have prosthetics that set off the alarms or metal implants, or in a wheelchair, will ALWAYS have to endure a full testicle grabbing, vagina stroking pat down. They can't get the nude-a-tron pic.

What if you have a 15 year old daughter that triggers the alarm and has to endure it? In full public view.

What if you have on a Kotex? If the scanner finds that suspicious, will you have to have a pat down? Do you have to produce a dirty Kotex to prove it's a Kotex?

What about the orifices that they can't feel? What if you jam some explosive up your vagina? It's still going to get through. People have been using convenient body cavities to smuggle drugs for years.

What about trains, and boats? Can't any idiot effectively terrorize all of NYC by sending multiple bombers into several stations and blowing themselves up in Battery Park, Time Square, the Bronx, Brooklyn, Wall Street and the village all simultaneously?

I'll say it again. There will be much outrage when the general public flies much less and "downs" the airline industry.

People are saying "it's a privilege to fly". Yes it is. And it also a privilege for the airlines for us to CHOOSE to fly. We can take other transport.

I see a giant butting of heads between the TSA and the airline industry in the very near future. The loss of capital to the already ailing airlines will be a HUGE problem.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down? (karma: 1)
By TheMidlakeMusemember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:55 AM
^ You bring up some great questions, and it looks like the TSA is erring on the side of "intrusiveness". A FLIGHT ATTENDANT (not even a passenger!) chose to opt out of the full body scan since she's a cancer survivor and didn't want to take the risk of any more radiation. She was given a very aggressive pat down and had to take her prosthetic breast out of her bra.

www.wbtv.com . . .

Another news article (gah, can't find the link) brought up the fact that people who have to wear colostomy bags or adult diapers may be made very uncomfortable too.

Seriously, is any of this making us "safe"? Somehow I doubt it. Risk cannot be eliminated completely, and these new measures are like a game of death is not an option. Increase my risk of cancer, or be borderline sexually assaulted and incur a panic attack? Gross. Guess my travel plans will center around where Amtrak can take me. :?

Dani
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By martha_grahammember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:48 PM
TheMidlakeMuse wrote:

Seriously, is any of this making us "safe"? Somehow I doubt it. Risk cannot be eliminated completely, and these new measures are like a game of death is not an option. Increase my risk of cancer, or be borderline sexually assaulted and incur a panic attack? Gross. Guess my travel plans will center around where Amtrak can take me.


I think you are exaggerating by calling it borderline sexual assault. It is same sex giving you a pat down and they are professionals. Do you feel borderline sexual assaulted by your doctor?

I feel sorry for people that this will create inconvenience, but I feel more sorry for people that get blown up by terrorists.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By reel_faerie85member has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:55 PM
i_am_me wrote:

If I'm going to be made uncomfortable, then at least one other human is going to have to be made uncomfortable too. So go ahead. Touch away...and don't be a stranger...call me. ;)


Made me giggle..I'm with you on this one...
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 02:03 PM
Edited by i_am_me (202298) on 2010-11-20 14:06:17
martha_graham wrote:

I think you are exaggerating by calling it borderline sexual assault. It is same sex giving you a pat down and they are professionals. Do you feel borderline sexual assaulted by your doctor?


She gets to choose her physician. You also choose to get a physical. I know someone who was so ashamed of her weight, she refused to get her yearly. She just opted out of getting naked.

Having fingers run along your genitals in full public view is not something most would choose. Definitely not by a stranger, whether professional or not. I won't go into a debate on whether the gazillion TSA new hires with GED's qualify as professional.

If the answer is "well then, don't fly", I think that's precisely what is going to happen and the airlines will feel the backlash.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By nic_dancezonemember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 02:27 PM
I have only briefly read over other comments and would normally not post but having had experience in security in the UK through sporting events and festivals I feel I need to put my penny's worth in.

1. Only a man can touch a man and woman touch a woman. End of story.

2. If someone refuses to religious reasons eg Muslim woman where I have worked there has been a policy that there is separate room near by where the search can be completed in private.

3. After being the only female security at a festival I was searching the same 1,000 women over 3 days. It was condition of entry to be body searched every time they went into the main arena due to illegal drugs. It was my job, I had been trained to perform the search and was on public view. Most women were fine with being searched because they knew was a reason.

4. Pat down should use the back of the hand mainly and should not 'grope' sensitive areas. When having body pats performed on me or performing I have followed the under wire of the bra and that is it.

5. It is done in a professional manner (even though I was in a muddy field), being polite to the customer, answering their questions as to why it was being done etc.

6. Staff in security must have a licence in UK which involves training and a police check. Airport staff are under more checks in the UK.

7. There are terms and conditions to everything in our lives and that is same for flight tickets - every airline and airport has their terms of carriage which will include the security.

Personally I would rather have pat down.

Nic
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Meganmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 02:41 PM
Honestly, I'm completely over it. I've just accepted that any time I want to travel, I'm going to have to accept every ridiculous "security" measure invented. I flew during that time when NO carry on was allowed, I take off my shoes, I don't bring on liquid items and buy my freaking toothpaste before I check in at my hotel, I allow agents to swab and prod at my stuff and rifle through my underwear, I drink my coffee before I hit the security line and then pay $5 for another one afterward...at this point, I just don't give a crap anymore.

I'll take either option if I have to, but I'd prefer the scan. I don't really like to be touched even by my friends. It's not like the agent is getting a view of my bikini wax- the view is really not all that invasive, all things considered.

I just want to get where I'm going, frankly, and as quickly and efficiently as possible. Get me through security as quickly as possible and I'll put up with all the rules.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Sumayah
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 03:05 PM
nic_dancezone wrote:

4. Pat down should use the back of the hand mainly and should not 'grope' sensitive areas. When having body pats performed on me or performing I have followed the under wire of the bra and that is it.


Re-read the thread, links have been posted that show that this is not the pat down *now* being given. It is much more intrusive. I don't think any of us object to the pat down that had been going on, but this one does not use the back of the hand it uses palms and fingers. I can't find the link because I'm at work right now, but I read that yes men only pat down men and women only pat down women. However, the article I was reading asked blatantly what happens when a same sex person is not available. The TSA would not directly answer that question but left it implied that basically you'll have to sit and wait til one gets there (at the risk of missing your flight). so get there extra, extra, extra early now.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By nic_dancezonemember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 03:09 PM
In the UK there is always a male and female attendant present at the security gates. Also the pat down you are commenting on is not happening in the UK, I flew recently to Northern Ireland and was patted down but no where near genitals like your previous post.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 03:24 PM
nic_dancezone wrote:

In the UK there is always a male and female attendant present at the security gates. Also the pat down you are commenting on is not happening in the UK, I flew recently to Northern Ireland and was patted down but no where near genitals like your previous post.


Welcome to America where you can now have your outer vaginal lips stroked from back to front or front to back by your lovely TSA worker.

I think that if I travel and have the pat down, I am going to say to TSA person "You know what sucks more than having your vagina stroked prior to a lovely vacation by a stranger?...Having to garner an income in a career where you stand around all day touching random twat after twat. Must suck. Have a lovely rest of the day...I'll be in Hawaii."
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By d4jmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 03:30 PM
angelfish said:

it would be kind of arrogant of me to assume that my body is anything special to the agent who either sees my scan or gives me the pat down.


Just because I don't want to be touched, doesn't mean that I think that my body is anything special to anyone. I just don't want to be touched.

And nic, it's already been discussed that it's NOT just the back of the hand.

I know that this is a job and I know that they do it a gazillion times and I know that they aren't ogling or even really seeing you, they are just checking for what they need to check for. I still won't do it. I won't be seen, I won't be touched. Nope, nope.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By nic_dancezonemember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 03:43 PM
After searching people for 20 hours straight on one shift all you end up seeing is bodies and the task on hand. I personally do not agree with the genital touching as it goes against I have been taught and trained in the UK for security work and legal implications for searching. Same as I am not supposed to go in a persons pockets when searching as that is close touching.

I want to know in the US then how many of these close touching body pat downs are actually been carried out?

If that is the carriers terms and conditions for you flying and you do not agree to them they can refuse to take you.
Page:
Page 3 of 10: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

ReplySendWatch

Powered by XP Experience Server.
Copyright ©1999-2021 XP.COM, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
XL
LG
MD
SM
XS
XL
LG
MD
SM
XS