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re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Munkensteinmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 04:18 PM
It kind of sucks how people are trying to emphasize so much that flying is a total choice...nobody should have to choose between their job and being put into a position like this, whether it's dude to previous abuse, just not wanting to be touched, or anything else. Not everybody can drive, take a train, take a bus, etc. for the things that they have to do. I rarely fly and when I do, it's a choice...but I work on a daily basis with people who have to fly or else they'll just have to quit or lose their jobs. It really sucks for them right now with all of this uproar and insanity.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 04:21 PM
Edited by OkinawaDancing (223602) on 2010-11-20 16:24:44
nic_dancezone wrote:



I want to know in the US then how many of these close touching body pat downs are actually been carried out?

If that is the carriers terms and conditions for you flying and you do not agree to them they can refuse to take you.


They are being carried out to anyone and everyone who they choose to carry them out on. In some cities they do it to more people than others.It's not like they are only doing it for people on a terrorist watch list or with a warning of high risk activity from these particular people. Put it this way. It is enough for unions to be outraged after only two days.

If you refuse the full body scan and then you refuse the pat down you are escorted out and subject to a $10,000 fine.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down? (karma: 3)
By tumblebugPremium member
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 04:33 PM
Well if it's for the good of the country then I think Obama should volunteer his family as demonstration to show how 'harmless' it is. I'll be in line for my body scan and pat down...right behind Malia and Sasha.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 04:37 PM
Edited by OkinawaDancing (223602) on 2010-11-20 16:40:47
Edited by OkinawaDancing (223602) on 2010-11-20 16:43:55
tumblebug wrote:

Well if it's for the good of the country then I think Obama should volunteer his family as demonstration to show how 'harmless' it is. I'll be in line for my body scan and pat down...right behind Malia and Sasha.


Obama was not the person who put this into full swing. The head of the Department of Homeland Security did. Not everything falls directly in the lap if the president other departments handle situations like this.

In fact the former head of the DOHS, the man who is pushing that these will make us safer and prevent terrorism, is the same man hired by the companies that make the scanners to promote the sale. . . interesting.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By tumblebugPremium member
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 04:44 PM
Edited by tumblebug (25049) on 2010-11-20 16:45:27
I never said he 'put it into full swing'. Where did I say that? Please show me.

For your entertainment:
www.mediaite.com . . .
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By nic_dancezonemember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 04:49 PM
I am not trying to say that flying is only a choice. But a lot of things have terms and conditions eg soft ware on computer that means you will not copy it and only use it in these ways, tickets to a sporting event or pop concert, so do air line tickets and if you do not comply to them then you cannot use that service.

It sounds like this is a new American version of pat downs. I know Manchester airport in UK does have body scanners and there was talk about bringing them in at other airports but there has been more aversion to them and they have been postponed for now.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 04:57 PM
Edited by OkinawaDancing (223602) on 2010-11-20 16:58:56
tumblebug wrote:

I never said he 'put it into full swing'. Where did I say that? Please show me.

For your entertainment:
www.mediaite.com . . .


I am not saying that you suggested he put it into full swing, what I am saying is that if someone should be subjecting their family to it to show it is harmless it should be the people who are on the news every day pushing it. Michel Curtof is one of those people (he's the guy I mentioned above). HIS words are that this is harmless and necessary and so on which he proclaims on a number of legitimate news programs. Because of his very public stance I think his family should be first in line.

It's not that I do not agree with your position, in fact I do agree if it's harmless why do we have to demonstrate on a plastic model on TV not a real person? I just hear a lot of people who are quick to throw the president (and I do mean any president) under the bus simply because he is the president without making the others who are the foundation in these issues take responsibility.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 05:40 PM
Edited by i_am_me (202298) on 2010-11-20 17:42:09
nic_dancezone wrote:

I want to know in the US then how many of these close touching body pat downs are actually been carried out?


You have the option of the nude-a-tron or the pat down. If you trigger the alarms, you have to get a mandatory pat down any way.

If you opt out of the nude-a-tron, you get a mandatory pat down.

Many many intimate pat downs are being carried out.

That's why it's news. The Thanksgiving travel weekend is upon us and millions of travelers are being subjected to the new security.

nic_dancezone wrote:

If that is the carriers terms and conditions for you flying and you do not agree to them they can refuse to take you.


These aren't the carriers terms. The airlines are private. The TSA is a government run agency. You have to pass the checkpoint to get to your carrier. If you refuse the conditions, you don't get to your gate. Period.

In fact, The pilots and flight attendants were being subjected to it until the union freaked out about it and the TSA is letting them bypass it altogether, effective yesterday. They just need to provide certain ID.

That is why I think that these two entities, the airline and the TSA, are going to have an issue with each other very soon if they don't modify the current situation. It could cripple the industry even further.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By pasdebourretenduPremium member
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 05:44 PM
www.witn.com . . .
Evidently it IS groping and everyone gets to see what you look like naked, not just the staff. Wow airport security is the perfect job for perverts.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By tumblebugPremium member
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 05:56 PM
Edited by tumblebug (25049) on 2010-11-20 18:02:38
This story had me in tears. Sorry if someone already posted this. I've been reading stories on a few different boards so I apologize if I repeat.

www.msnbc.msn.com . . .

This man was left covered in Urine.

“I am a good American and I want safety for all passengers as much as the next person," Sawyer said. "But if this country is going to sacrifice treating people like human beings in the name of safety, then we have already lost the war.”

*standing ovation*
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 06:06 PM
tumblebug wrote:

T
“I am a good American and I want safety for all passengers as much as the next person," Sawyer said. "But if this country is going to sacrifice treating people like human beings in the name of safety, then we have already lost the war.”

*standing ovation*


You beat me to it.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down? (karma: 2)
By TheMidlakeMusemember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 06:24 PM
martha_graham wrote:

I think you are exaggerating by calling it borderline sexual assault. It is same sex giving you a pat down and they are professionals. Do you feel borderline sexual assaulted by your doctor?

I feel sorry for people that this will create inconvenience, but I feel more sorry for people that get blown up by terrorists.


I guess it's time to share something on DDN I haven't written about before.

When I was fifteen or sixteen, I was in another city for a dance competition. My dad and sister and I were walking around the city at night and I was trailing along last. I passed an adult male and he reached out, grabbed my breast and said "you like that, don't you?" It was utterly terrifying. I felt so ashamed, and the remark just made it worse. My dad and sister had no idea what had happened and I was completely tongue-tied. I didn't know what to say and was so fearful he would hurt me I just wanted to melt into the ground. When I got back to the hotel I stayed in the shower until my mom asked me if everything was okay. The first time somebody touched me sexually was nonconsensual. You (speaking generally) have no idea how upsetting that is unless you've experienced it. When I finally did tell my parents much later I don't think they understood that I was assaulted because I was too embarrassed to say anything specific.

To this day I have a pretty active phobia of strangers touching me. Through therapy I've reached the point where it doesn't rule my life, but I don't think I'll ever be completely okay with people I don't know being too close to my personal space. My doctors (all female) know about my anxiety surrounding touching. The only physician I completely undress for is my gynecologist, and she has been extremely understanding and just all-around amazing in regards to making sure I'm comfortable. My dermatologist only requires me to undress to bra and panties. My family doctor lets me leave ALL my clothes on. I trust my doctors because I have an actual relationship with them. My doctors are also touching me for medically necessary reasons. Unless the TSA is suddenly in the business of giving gynecological exams, NOBODY has the right to touch me.

And even though I'm only comfortable with female doctors, it doesn't mean it's okay for any female to touch me. I almost got in a fight with a girl who was pressing too close to me at a show one time. It's even taken me a while to be okay with affection from my girl friends.

Let's recap: what happened to me was IN PUBLIC, with my dad and my sister just feet away, and snide remarks were made along with the assault. So pardon me if the mere thought of having someone touch my breasts or genitals in the name of "safety" in front of other passengers, or even in private (along with some of the ha-ha funny jokes that the late night comics seem so fond of) turns my stomach. Change a few details, and you have my assault. The modified pat-downs are only available to children under 12. It pisses me off to the nth degree that this could happen to a 14 year old girl, and since it's a uniformed officer it's suddenly ok. It's NOT ok. Buying a plane ticket is not an admission of guilt, and neither is it an invitation to be fondled.

The statistical probability that a person will die in a terrorist-hijacked plane is so infinitesimally small, why is YOUR (pretty damn irrational) fear given precedence over my phobia of being sexually assaulted? You are much more likely to die in the car en route to the airport than you are once you get on the plane. You are FIFTY times more likely to be struck by LIGHTNING than die in a terrorist plot. But hey, whatever keeps us "safe", right?

online.wsj.com . . .

blogs.riverfronttimes.com . . .

Dani
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By imadanseurPremium member
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 07:10 PM
Good for you that you've never been sexually assaulted and don't know how humiliating it is for a stranger to touch you in an unwanted way. Just don't do it at the expense of marginalizing abuse victims who can't think about being touched by a stranger without being physically ill.


While I understand this point of view and others that have germ phobias etc. that don't want to be touched...there are victims of sexual assault and rape (me included) that still don't have an issue with this.

We live in a land of choices. Nobody has to fly anywhere if they don't want to. I don't know if this new rule is right or wrong, but it if helps save one airline from a terrorist, then I don't care...I support it.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By d4jmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 07:20 PM
Nobody has to fly anywhere if they don't want to.


Not all flying is recreational. If it's for work and it's overseas, what do you do then? Quit any kind of work where flying might be involved? I guess so.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 07:28 PM
^^ I agree. I think that what we need to consider is some of the things that were outlines in the WSJ article like above.

I think that we are allowing too many little *'s to be piled on here.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By CheesePlusCakemember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 07:38 PM
I think that in times where people are freaking out over something, the US government seems to feel the need to do SOMETHING in order to make itself (or the American people) feel better.... even if it isn't the RIGHT thing. Every time something happens, a new layer of "security" is added. I don't think it's solving the real problem, I almost feel like it's trying to create a false sense of security. It would make more sense not to let terrorists on watch lists onto airplanes. The terrorists aren't stupid, if they know what security we have in place, they'll find a way around it if they really want to. I'm not saying not to do searches on airplanes because terrorists will find ways around security, I think it makes sense to do security checks (though I completely disagree with the invasiveness of the new measures). I just think that there are more useful things that can be done to increase security that doesn't involve groping of innocent people, like targeting people who are suspected to be in contact with terrorist networks.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 08:03 PM
Edited by i_am_me (202298) on 2010-11-20 20:08:02
I think it might come down to a customer service issue.

The airlines are a business. They need the flying public to survive. The flying public has seen a gradual decrease in the pleasantry of flying for quite a bit now. Although being shoved in a metal tube catapulting along at 600 miles an hour at 30,000 feet with a bag a peanuts to try and distract yourself isn't everyone's idea of fun. Now you even have to pay for your checked luggage.

Although this is a government issue and not an airline rule, it is still going to be factored into "air travel nonsense" and the airline business will take the brunt.

This is going to be a problem. There will be one humiliating story after another popping up in the media.

And I absolutely agree that if a terrorist wants to cause chaos, they will figure out a way to do so. This won't prevent it. It's just going to piss off a lot of innocent people.

Go back to what they had. Add some canines to sniff to the mix. Add the interviewing process if needed.

I'd much rather be sniffed by a German shepard and asked when I was born, where I live and where I'm going than have a vag-swipe.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By tumblebugPremium member
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 08:04 PM
Well it's like this, if the terrorists can't get past security to blow up planes they will just find another alternative. While it may limit them some, there are plenty of other well populated areas they can blow up...but as Mr. Sawyer said- they have already won.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By imadanseurPremium member
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 08:14 PM
Not all flying is recreational. If it's for work and it's overseas, what do you do then? Quit any kind of work where flying might be involved? I guess so.


Yes. If you don't want to travel by airplane for your job, then find another job. It does come down to choices. Some people take jobs so they can fly all over the place and some people prefer to stay closer to home for a variety of reasons. If I had to suddenly start being bussed or travel by boat all over the place due to work, I'd probably try and find another job because with my motion sickness I couldn't do it.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down? (karma: 1)
By d4jmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 08:22 PM
^That's true if you are starting out with a new job. I can see choosing something different because it involved a lot of air travel. But what if you have been doing a job for a long time before all this hulla-baloo? I guess you just leave and start a new career? I understand that, I mean, change is part of life and you have to adapt. But still... it's a bummer. I guess you just have to get over it (the security measures that is). If I HAD to, I'd get over it I guess. I'm just in the fortunate position at the moment that I don't HAVE TO get over it and so I won't. :)
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 08:22 PM
imadanseur wrote:

Yes. If you don't want to travel by airplane for your job, then find another job. It does come down to choices. Some people take jobs so they can fly all over the place and some people prefer to stay closer to home for a variety of reasons.


In this economy? Someone should just quit? Will there be another option waiting? People who fly on business don't all love that aspect.

I had a best friend who flew for her job for years. She HATED it. She hated living out of a suitcase. She hated being away from her family. But she had to endure it for economic reasons.

I like this...

online.wsj.com . . .
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By tumblebugPremium member
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 08:27 PM
^ That article is well written.

There were a lot of great lines but this one in particular...

"This strange nightmare began with three strange words: Osama bin Laden. Anybody know where he went? Or is our government too busy molesting the flying public to keep looking?"

That about sums it up.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 08:31 PM
This was my favorite quote..

"If you don't like it, don't fly. That's essentially how Department of Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano recently put it -- as if the airline industry needs another round of bankruptcies."

hehehe. Exactly.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By dancemomtoo
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 08:35 PM
If this country is really serious about airlinesecurity the first action it would take would be to put everyone on the watch list on the no fly list. People can apply for permission to fly and receive stricter screening if they are allowed to. Until this happens the TSA is a bad joke
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Cadbury_Eatermember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Sat Nov 20, 2010 09:36 PM
Well, the terrorists have a small victory, citizens in their own country feeling violated and afraid from pat down or fully body scanners. But if you make exceptions for religion, PTSD sufferers and such, there's no point having the security cause it will be loopholed. Cause the main tool for terroists is the fear, fear to cripple people everyday. It's not so much about the attacks, but the trauma and fear that affects everyone.

I think it's horrible what the people who have survived cancer, ex assault victims and such being put through, I don't agree with it more for these people, than myself (though the idea of it mortifies me a bit too). Imagine the humiliation for these people and trauma. What happens with the one finger swipe if someone is wearing a pad or something? And what if the person is not hetero, do they still have to be scanned by someone of the same gender?

I was totally fine with the old "pat down", but the one finger swipe of gentitalia what? Surely, you don't need to probe with a single finger to work out if something's concealed there.

Ew. Both of the ideas are unappealing to me, but I'd take the pat down. The body scan is extra radiation and more importantly, I'd be paranoid of the images been saved and kept forever. Despite the invasive patdown being disturbing and being mortified for a few minutes, at least it wasn't on a computer somewhere. The experience would soon fade into memory for both parties, especially if I happened to be travelling somewhere amazing.
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