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re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Moonlitefairy06member has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:31 PM
maybe they do let you retrieve your stuff before the pat down and thats how this guy had the phone. If thats the case, I bet now you won't be able to hold onto any stuff but perhaps still have it in view.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Celebrianmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Sun Nov 21, 2010 01:15 PM
If your child sets off an alarm they will get searched regardless of age.

www.youtube.com . . .

I could take this, the scanner, the patdown, despite my past and not liking anyone touching me that I don't know, I can take it all. But not my son. He won't be flying again until they figure this out.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By d4jmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Sun Nov 21, 2010 01:17 PM
Edited by d4j (104724) on 2010-11-21 13:35:04
^Oh dear, I'm afraid to watch... :(



EDIT: I just watched a video interview of the head of the TSA and he said something interesting about why an examiner would put gloved fingers inside the waistband of pants and feel for the underwear waistband. He said that the gloves get tested for chemical residue or whatever it is that proves that there is bomb powder stuff in the underwear. This addresses the point brought up earlier in the debate that it's useless to check undies for physical presence of a bomb if it is a chemical substance instead of a 'ticking clock' or something that you can feel the shape of.

Here is the vid:

www.cnn.com . . .

re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On Sun Nov 21, 2010 01:37 PM
Celebrian wrote:

If your child sets off an alarm they will get searched regardless of age.

www.youtube.com . . .


And that was BEFORE the new TSA measures. This is where common sense is missing.

Child cries because they take her stuffed animal from her and put it through the x-ray belt. Because she's having a fit, she can't get through the metal detector properly and sets it off twice. Mandatory pat down. WHO IN THEIR RIGHT F&**%$( MIND believes that this kid is a terrorist and merits a pat down?

She's a three year old having a MELT DOWN.

OHHHHH...I get it. It was a giant preplanned terrorist plot launched by her family and the kid is in on it. "Okay sweetie. Let's go over the plan again. When they take Boo Boo Bear, that's your cue to go ape s&^*." Oh wait...the Dad works for a TV station. A threat? BUT WAIT AGAIN...That doesn't prove he's no threat. He must be A SLEEPER CELL.

Idiots.

Celebrian wrote:

I could take this, the scanner, the patdown, despite my past and not liking anyone touching me that I don't know, I can take it all. But not my son. He won't be flying again until they figure this out.


I draw the line with my son too.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By CheesePlusCakemember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Sun Nov 21, 2010 01:43 PM
In regards to international flights not having US security measures so it's pointless to have them here since the terrorists are coming from abroad, this "He also criticised the US for imposing increased checks on US-bound flights but not on its own domestic services" www.bbc.co.uk . . . makes it sound like people flying to the US from abroad are forced to have stricter security checks? I'm not exactly sure how it works, though.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On Sun Nov 21, 2010 02:09 PM
d4j wrote:

Here is the vid:

www.cnn.com . . .


He went around and around.

When you have Hillary stating that she wouldn't do it, where do you think this will go? As more government people speak up against it, it might get modified sooner rather than later.

And as long as there are security holes from other countries, the whole thing is pointless. 99.999% of the flying public is just trying to get from point A to point B. The few that are wanting to reek havoc are not 6 year old children, the disabled, and Grandma. Esh.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By tumblebugPremium member
On Sun Nov 21, 2010 02:40 PM
Celebrian- that video is disturbing, at the very least. It makes me want to vomit repeatedly and then be a real parent and remove that poor innocent little girl from that situation.

If we let a stranger (exceptions being medical reasons by medical professionals) look at our child naked or touched them inappropriately, we would be subject to child pornography, abuse, or neglect charges. This is no different. Where did they find these 'body scanner employees' anyway? The sex offender list?

MY daughter will NEVER be subject to that type of un-warranted inappropriate abuse. A child's advocate is their parent and it is the responsibility of that parent to be their voice and protect them. Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By SaraTheGrouchmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Sun Nov 21, 2010 03:30 PM
If you don't like it, don't fly. Seriously. More elbow room for me.

And for those of you who are worried about the radiation of the xray - do you realize how much radiation you're exposing yourself to by being in an airplane?!?
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Moonlitefairy06member has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Sun Nov 21, 2010 03:35 PM
^ and higher airfare prices and flights less often as the airline industry goes bankrupt, and you probably won't get more elbow room as they try to cram more people onto less flights.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By SaraTheGrouchmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Sun Nov 21, 2010 04:46 PM
The airports near both of my homes are expanding, not decreasing in size. More airlines are moving in, which means there will be more flights, not less. These new safety regulations are not going to make as much of an impact as yall think it will. Did people stop flying because they now had to take off their shoes, take out their laptop, and pack smaller liquids into ziplock bags? No. Everyone just has to fuss at a change because people don't like to accept change.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down? (karma: 1)
By highlandrebelmember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Sun Nov 21, 2010 05:30 PM
I would rather take my chances of dying at the hands of a terrorist, than live in 1984.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On Sun Nov 21, 2010 05:45 PM
SaraTheGrouch wrote:

The airports near both of my homes are expanding, not decreasing in size. More airlines are moving in, which means there will be more flights, not less. These new safety regulations are not going to make as much of an impact as yall think it will. Did people stop flying because they now had to take off their shoes, take out their laptop, and pack smaller liquids into ziplock bags? No. Everyone just has to fuss at a change because people don't like to accept change.


Not so much of an impact as we all think? It's only been a few weeks and so far we have had more HUGE problems then with any of the other measures that have been put into place. To look at this as if it's as simple as exposing feet or opening a laptop is a bit off base.

As far as seeing a video if the actual pat downs, you will never get one. There were a few floating around the internet from news media when it first came out and since then they have been taken off the air. This is probably for the same reason that you will never see the actual full body xray without the "questionable parts" blurred out. It's inappropriate. They do not want to show people these things so that they keep flying.Problem is the flying public are not idiots. Are all the facts there? Probably not but the thing we need to consider is how upset these people are. If you were told to take off your belt and your pants fell down it doesn't matter how far they fell you were put in an inappropriate situation. If you warned staff about an implant or medical condition or whatever they should be properly capable of taking care of a pat down accommodating your condition as to prevent something like ruining your medical equipment. You won't see what they REALLY do on the TV or the internet unless it's a home video.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On Sun Nov 21, 2010 05:53 PM
Edited by OkinawaDancing (223602) on 2010-11-21 18:02:15
d4j wrote:

^Oh dear, I'm afraid to watch... :(



EDIT: I just watched a video interview of the head of the TSA and he said something interesting about why an examiner would put gloved fingers inside the waistband of pants and feel for the underwear waistband. He said that the gloves get tested for chemical residue or whatever it is that proves that there is bomb powder stuff in the underwear. This addresses the point brought up earlier in the debate that it's useless to check undies for physical presence of a bomb if it is a chemical substance instead of a 'ticking clock' or something that you can feel the shape of.

Here is the vid:

www.cnn.com . . .



I am sorry but this guy is a piece of work.

My question is, if they are testing the gloves does the subject have to sit and wait for the results to come back before they can move on to the gate? Now I could see if they had bomb sniffing dogs trigger a guy then this being necessary but the trigger for a pat down is according to this interview either not going through the scanner OR setting off the metal detector. I just feel like we are trying to give a bunch of reasons hoping that the American public doesn't try to put the pieces together and realize OMG none of this seems to be related.

It's people like him that need to be subject to this on public television. I also like when he gets caught up saying that other countries are basically more secure then us because they use profiling which is much less invasive than what we are doing and apparently more accurate. . . . interesting.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By tumblebugPremium member
On Sun Nov 21, 2010 06:07 PM
As of right now, I know of 4 different sets of families that canceled their flights and opted to make long drives over flying to their Thanksgiving destinations. I am certain they are not the only ones. There will most definitely be an impact.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By slice
On Sun Nov 21, 2010 06:13 PM
SaraTheGrouch wrote:

The airports near both of my homes are expanding, not decreasing in size. More airlines are moving in, which means there will be more flights, not less. These new safety regulations are not going to make as much of an impact as yall think it will. Did people stop flying because they now had to take off their shoes, take out their laptop, and pack smaller liquids into ziplock bags? No. Everyone just has to fuss at a change because people don't like to accept change.


Agreed. Maybe the Johnsons will decide to drive 12 hours to Florida and make it an adventure, but the vast majority of people who do not have the luxury of time will still fly.

And the uproar hasn't been NEARLY has huge as I would have expected if it was really that bad. Thousands of people fly per day and with the exception of the newsworthy stories here and there (which, are only newsworthy because they are ABNORMAL circumstances), I haven't heard of anything. I have a couple friends who go to universities several states away who have been flying home over the past week and so far nothing has even been mentioned about the hassle of security. A lot of people don't even know about it. I feel like if it were really that bad then a heck of a lot more people would be coming forward.

But I'm with the poster above. More elbow room for me (O'hare is too crowded anyway ;) )
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On Sun Nov 21, 2010 06:40 PM
OkinawaDancing wrote:

Not so much of an impact as we all think? It's only been a few weeks and so far we have had more HUGE problems then with any of the other measures that have been put into place. To look at this as if it's as simple as exposing feet or opening a laptop is a bit off base.


This is correct. It was put into place before people had a chance to change travel plans. Many travelers are being completely caught off guard by it. As was said in the cnn video, the TSA didn't want to give away too much ifo on what it invloved so as not to tip off the terrorists. Seriously? And now what? Now it's out there. What's next? Surprise cavity searches?

I'm sure ALL government eyes are on how this will further cripple the airline industry. The effects are yet to be seen.

And make no mistake. If enough of the Johnson's cancel their travel plans, it will make a ginormous impact on the industry.

The city of Orlando is already freaked because people who fly to their destination are largely families. They are very aware that it could directly impact their local economy if the "Johnson's" opt to stay home rather than have little Suzy and little Bobby have to go through the nude-a-tron.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By PogMoGilliesmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Sun Nov 21, 2010 06:44 PM
There are other options as well. Fly from a smaller airport, which won't have the more advanced screening. if you start in a smaller airport (local commuter flight-type), you will get your security screening there, and can then fly to a larger airport to continue your travel.
You can be like Obama (and any other president), and fly on a private plane. Sure it'll cost more, but it's a way around the screening at larger airports.

Do I like the idea that if I set off the metal detector I'll have to make this choice? no. If it was just the chance of setting off the detector, I'd be sure to fly in sweats and a sports bra with no metal anywhere near me. However, it's the random screening that bugs me. If you're going to randomly pick me to go through this, then I will complain, because i've done nothing to warrent further screening.

As for the reliability of current technology: My friend was in Inorganic Chemistry class in college, and they were making contact explosives. Of course, being college kids, they were playing around and getting stuff everywhere. Her backpack was in that classroom, and certainly had residue on it. The next day she was at the airport and her bag was swiped. The machine didn't catch it. While she was glad not to be hauled off to jail, part of her wanted to report to somebody that obviously the machinery was not calibrated.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By DancinDiva2005member has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Sun Nov 21, 2010 06:54 PM
Edited by DancinDiva2005 (17591) on 2010-11-21 18:58:48
TSA announces room for possible flexibility:

www.msnbc.msn.com . . .

"This has always been viewed as an evolving program that will be adapted as conditions warrant"

(ie: people complain)
---

Honestly, I wouldn't mind the scanners if they were like other ones that I've heard about. A generic body image with the problem area highlighted. Not a scan like ours. I wish I had a picture, but I saw one at some point..I think they have them in Sweden or something. It's seriously just an outline of a body...not my naked body.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On Sun Nov 21, 2010 07:02 PM
Edited by i_am_me (202298) on 2010-11-21 19:04:01
PogMoGillies wrote:

There are other options as well. Fly from a smaller airport, which won't have the more advanced screening. if you start in a smaller airport (local commuter flight-type), you will get your security screening there, and can then fly to a larger airport to continue your travel.


Right. The one closest to me has no nude-a-tron yet. So a terrorist can't figure this out? I've figured it out and I'm no criminal mastermind.

However, I read that at one of the nations smaller airports, they don't have the machines, so ALL travelers get pat downs.

There is zero consistency in it. Which makes it ridiculous.

All a quasi-intelligent organization has to do is find the holes and penetrate them.

9/11 was carried out because of intelligent terrorists that found GAPING holes. If they can get through by pretending to be pilots deadheading with a fake uniform, then they did their homework.

They would find these holes again.

Meanwhile, Grandma Smith is getting her crotch swiped in full view.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By SaraTheGrouchmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Sun Nov 21, 2010 07:04 PM
I fly on the regular. I'm assuming many of the posters on this thread do not. And by regular, approximately once a month (twice, round trip obviously.) Some months, more than that. My father, who lives in NY and works in CA, flies at least 4-5 times a month. As a traveler, I'll gladly forgo my personal space (and I'm BIG into personal space) and walk through a full body xray machine or agree to a pat-down. The change is to protect us, not hurt us. They've been patting down plenty of people for a very long time. It's not that big of a darn deal.

I'm flying on Tuesday into one of the biggest and busiest airports in the country - I'll let you all know how non-invasive it is.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On Sun Nov 21, 2010 07:05 PM
i_am_me wrote:

OkinawaDancing wrote:

Not so much of an impact as we all think? It's only been a few weeks and so far we have had more HUGE problems then with any of the other measures that have been put into place. To look at this as if it's as simple as exposing feet or opening a laptop is a bit off base.


This is correct. It was put into place before people had a chance to change travel plans. Many travelers are being completely caught off guard by it. As was said in the cnn video, the TSA didn't want to give away too much ifo on what it invloved so as not to tip off the terrorists. Seriously? And now what? Now it's out there. What's next? Surprise cavity searches?

I'm sure ALL government eyes are on how this will further cripple the airline industry. The effects are yet to be seen.

And make no mistake. If enough of the Johnson's cancel their travel plans, it will make a ginormous impact on the industry.

The city of Orlando is already freaked because people who fly to their destination are largely families. They are very aware that it could directly impact their local economy if the "Johnson's" opt to stay home rather than have little Suzy and little Bobby have to go through the nude-a-tron.


You will not see the impact right away and frankly you are absolutely right. They did this without giving people enough time to arrange other travel even if they could. And when do they do it? The holiday season when families who have been saving and saving to travel to see their families and now are in a really tight spot. They could have put this into place ANY OTHER TIME OF THE YEAR since the last "attempt" but they choose just a short time before the holiday rush. They really didn't even allow agents enough time to iron out any problems during the "slow" season which would have been the smart choice. They jumped in head first leaving room for error and outrage.

I give it a few months (that is if the public outcry doesn't change something first) before we start to see the effects of people not flying. You're going to see the same thing we saw right after 9/11 when there were deals up to your ears to get people to fly to make up for the loss.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By OkinawaDancing
On Sun Nov 21, 2010 07:28 PM
i_am_me wrote:

PogMoGillies wrote:

There are other options as well. Fly from a smaller airport, which won't have the more advanced screening. if you start in a smaller airport (local commuter flight-type), you will get your security screening there, and can then fly to a larger airport to continue your travel.


Right. The one closest to me has no nude-a-tron yet. So a terrorist can't figure this out? I've figured it out and I'm no criminal mastermind.

However, I read that at one of the nations smaller airports, they don't have the machines, so ALL travelers get pat downs.

There is zero consistency in it. Which makes it ridiculous.

All a quasi-intelligent organization has to do is find the holes and penetrate them.

9/11 was carried out because of intelligent terrorists that found GAPING holes. If they can get through by pretending to be pilots deadheading with a fake uniform, then they did their homework.

They would find these holes again.

Meanwhile, Grandma Smith is getting her crotch swiped in full view.


I think when most people think of terrorists we do not like to give them credit for any type of intellectual capability. We think that these people are just randomly doing something without any thought process of understanding of things that are common knowledge like flying out of different smaller airports or whatnot. It makes us feel safe to think that the shoe or underwear bomber would be stupid enough to do the same thing twice. This is where most of the issues come from. Simply put, these people are intelligent. Every system has loopholes and grey areas that people who want to create fear will find in order to shrink the "freedoms" that our nation proudly wears on it's sleeve.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By i_am_me
On Sun Nov 21, 2010 07:30 PM
dancindiva2005 - You can already hear it in the language of several higher ups. It will see some modification. And I would also be happy to go through a QUASI-nude-a-tron. It needs to have much less detail than it does now. AND there would have to be some sort of accountability on the TSA's part, lest they be telling us that it's one thing only to find out that they truly are seeing the enhanced version.

SaraTheGrouch wrote:

They've been patting down plenty of people for a very long time. It's not that big of a darn deal.

I'm flying on Tuesday into one of the biggest and busiest airports in the country - I'll let you all know how non-invasive it is.


Read the thread. These aren't the same pat downs.

Maybe you don't consider having your groin swiped from the back to the front with fingers, invasive. Or you don't have a child that you would care if his testicles were touched or if his nude likeness was on a screen. It's all perspective.
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By DancinDiva2005member has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Sun Nov 21, 2010 07:39 PM
This is the kind of image I was talking about.

Image hotlink - 'http://www.blogcdn.com/news.travel.aol.com/media/2010/09/autodetectmannequinl3sds.jpg'

This is a bit closer to home though--They're testing it out in New Jersey.news.travel.aol.com . . .
re: Full Body Scan or Pat Down?
By Heartmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Sun Nov 21, 2010 07:41 PM
Didn't read every single word, but a few thoughts:

1. Read the Constitution. Constitutionally speaking, AMERICANS HAVE NO RIGHT TO PRIVACY. That right falls under the "penumbras," or shadows, of rights enumerated in the Constitution, and was "granted" to us by the Supreme Court.

2. Thus, we have the right to privacy due to legal precedent. Following legal precedent (that is, past court cases), all of the search methods discussed here are COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY 100% LEGAL.

3. I would LOVE to say where in the Constitution this can't be done. Go ahead, go find a quote or find a case and prove it to me. Personal opinion is fine, but don’t talk about rights, because there is NO legal backing to it.

4. If a federal (or state) officer has reasonable suspicion, yes, he can pants you in public and yes, the Court will side with him. (Though if you're saying "I refuse, I refuse, I refuse," that's probable cause and a crime in and of itself.)

5. Flying is a privilege, not a right. Same with driving. It is an inconvenience not to, but that's your choice. If you fly on an airplane, you agree to the security measures or you don't fly. Period. If you drive on a road in New Jersey, you submit to a breathalyzer. Period. Or else you go to jail. These are the rules. Don't like 'em? Change 'em - 78% of the country isn't with you, so cheers!

6. I would have to look to find it, but I literally just read a case yesterday where a man hid a packet of drugs in a fat roll during a strip search. Wear a better bra, those titties should not be drooping!


israel has a LOT more security threats than we do in the US and yet, they haven't had an attack in their airports in a long time, it takes 25 minutes MAX to go through their airport security, and they don't do ANY touching of a person. a lot of their security comes through specially trained security making a point to talk to people in the airport, and looking for queues that something is amiss.

Takes around that long in US airports as well! If you fly non-peak hours, you zip right through there. I've definitely gone through in less than 30 minutes - probably more like 15. They look at my passport, pop through the x-ray, and now this scanner-thing, get my stuff, go to the terminal. Easy.


i_am_me wrote:

TinyD wrote:

How do these screenings protect America from international threats coming from countries that don't have such screening processes?


Why would you go and ask something so completely logical like that? Apparently our government hasn't asked these questions. Holes in the system? Where?

Ummm… really???? In order to set foot on American soil, you have to go through Customs. Where you get checked, searched, the whole nine yards. No one is even allowed in the TERMINAL until their visas have been verified, their passports stamped, their luggage searched, everything. It's even MORE rigorous than it is for natural and naturalized citizens. And if an international flight coming to the US pulls an Al Qaeda and moves off its flight path, well, it will soon secure a squadron of jets tagging along and ultimately may be shot down by the military.

So yeah…


Obama ABSOLUTELY has the power and authority to tel the tsa to back off and evaluate its current procedures. The buck definitely stops with him.

Obama does not control the TSA. Congress does. Obama doesn't control ANYTHING by himself, except for the military; even then, he must answer to Congress. We the people like to get irate about things AFTER they happen, without realizing that our elected representatives are the ones who put the law in place.


My other concern is, if I decide to get a patdown and my laptop and purse is going through the xray belt, how do I watch my stuff? Can we go and get our belongings before we are molested?

They're watching your stuff and it's on camera the whole time. It doesn't get much safer. You can ask for it to be brought to you but it's probably up to the individual agent.




By the way… people are going to keep flying out of necessity, just like after 9/11. The industry might suffer a tiny bit, but the rest of us (who continued flying after 9/11) are just going to incline our seats and enjoy the room. Bring some irradiated champagne up in this joint! Hollaaaaa
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