Poll: Arts / Debates

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re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Meganmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:52 PM
Edited by Megan (87282) on 2011-01-04 12:54:09
Renae, YOU have all been saying that kids need to know how to handle guns in case they find them, not me.

Also, I'm not from the UK. The stats from MY country are pretty clear. Like I said, I did some research on the academic databases of my university and all point to between a third and a half of gun violence (and violent crime generally) per capita in Canada vs the US. Like it or not, I do live in a safer society than you do.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:02 PM
Edited by jazz_lover (99333) on 2011-01-04 13:05:10
Megan, wouldn't you feel really stupid if your kid found a gun and pulled the trigger since he wasn't properly educated on how to use a gun?

Canada shares a border with the United States. Although I don't have official stats or anything, I am pretty sure that the black market for guns in Canada are bigger then you might assume. Just because YOU never personally found a gun, doesn't mean that your child may not in the future. What's the problem with taking a precaution and teaching your child about gun safety? Teaching a child about gun safety doesn't kill them, NOT teaching them about gun safety might be the one mistake that might kill them.

I'm not saying to take your child out target shooting to make him a good shot. All I am saying is that you should give your child the knowledge of avoiding accidental shootings. Only YOU can decide that for your own child and it isn't my business to force you to do so. For MY children, there are already enough dangers out in the world, and if a accidental shooting can be prevented, I will do everything in my power to teach them about proper gun handling.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Anon1234567890member has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:03 PM
Edited by Louise (29559) on 2011-01-04 13:11:01
"On the night of 20 August 1999, two burglars – Brendon Fearon, 29, and Fred Barras, 16 – entered Bleak House.[2] When confronted, they attempted to flee through a window. Shooting in the dark, with an illegally held pump-action Winchester shotgun, Martin shot Fearon in the leg, and Barras in the back. Barras escaped through the window but died at the scene.[1]"

He shot at them while they were fleeing! You can't shoot to kill or injure someone, you can only shoot to stop them from harming you. If the criminals are RUNNING AWAY from you, it would be stupid to say you shot for "self defense". I have a feeling that the outcome would have been different if he shot in SELF DEFENSE and he had the legal right to own a gun.


Pfft, it won't allow me to make it bold. Anyway the bit I wanted to make bold was "SHOOTING IN THE DARK". His house was a tumbledown shack in the middle of nowhere with little electricity. Eccentric guy. He didn't have a freaking clue whether they had their backs turned on him or not but it shouldn't bloody matter either way. However, your "feeling" is incorrect. He'd still have been put away.

/hijack

BTW if there is a mass Shooting in your country, how quickly can Special Forces get there to protect you?

I absolutely haven't got a clue, because mass shootings don't happen very often over here so I have no need to know. Last year was very much an anomaly where we had two (two!). You're just starting to sound petty now with all this one-upmanship, my-country's=-better-than-yours bs.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:06 PM
I say do NOT lock up your guns! What good is a gun if it's locked up and unloaded? None. My guns are loaded and distributed throughout my house. When I was 5, I knew where the guns were and how to use them. In fact, I had my own guns. Everyone in my community owned guns, and the crime in my are was nonexistent. Telling a kid not to touch a gun is stupid. Of course, that just makes them want to touch a gun. You have to teach them gun safety.

Yes Louise, I would think that if you're going to enact a law, you would want to understand both sides of the situation and not act on "women's intuition" or whatever hocum y'all are using to draw your conclusions. Statistics show that countries with gun control laws are NOT safer than countries without. Links have been posted. Yet people keep saying the opposite because they FEEL that it must be true. Screw your feelings. I know women aren't good with numbers, but hard data is available, and I find it absolutely mystifying that you all refuse to even consider it. Your mind is made up, and you don't care what the science says. This is exactly why women make terrible scientists.

Furthermore, your concept of buying a gun from a gun shop is SO not how it works - especially for criminals. That's just so completely out of touch with the real world. Most people I know (myself included) do not buy guns from gun shops, do not acquire licenses, and do not register their guns. Making guns illegal wouldn't fix the gun problem - but it would make me (a generally law-abiding citizen) into a criminal.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:09 PM
Edited by jazz_lover (99333) on 2011-01-04 13:10:38
Edited by jazz_lover (99333) on 2011-01-04 13:10:48
Louise, so you are defending the guys who BROKE THE LAW and invaded the poor man's house?

Louise, I would be put away too if I shot at someone who was running away from me. It is like that in the United States too.

So basically in your country, even if someone shoots in self defense, they would be put away? Man, what a horrible place to live for woman who shot in self defense to protect her children.


I also don't have any of the guns locked up personally. We need quick access to them, incase anyone ever tries to hurt us.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Anon1234567890member has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:12 PM
^ Um, no. And although we obviously posted at the same time I'm not responding to the one-upmanship.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun. (karma: 1)
By Meganmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:14 PM
Edited by Megan (87282) on 2011-01-04 13:16:33
Edited by Megan (87282) on 2011-01-04 13:17:16
Are you even reading what I'm writing?

I am not saying that I would not teach a child about gun safety. I'm saying that in my opinion, gun safety for children should be "don't even think about touching that," the same way it would be for, say, a dirty needle on the side of the road, or Daddy's razor, or the stove, or a million other things. A kid doesn't need to know how to fire it to know that it can fire and it is not a good thing to play with. I am not advocating ignorance here, I'm just saying that a child doesn't have to have a gun in front of him or her to learn that he or she should not handle it. We tell children not to play with knives or broken bottles or used condoms or electrical outlets or any number of things they might come across, why are guns different? We up here don't keep guns all around the house like in Chris's area, so our children don't NEED to know how to pick one up.

If you're not going to read what I've been writing, I really don't know why I'm bothering here. I am all for education, but I don't see why education has to involve "and this is how you pull the trigger" if you live somewhere where guns aren't found in the home.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:17 PM
^That's just silly. Tell a kid not to touch something, and you KNOW what happens. You're basically endorsing absinance-only education for firearms. Doesn't work with sex - doesn't work with drugs. Why would it work with guns?"
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:19 PM
Louise, I am not sure if I am getting you. Can you please answer 2 questions for me, so I get where you are coming from.

1. Should someone go to jail for shooting in self defense to protect themselves.
2. Would you shoot someone if that was the only way to protect your life.

Megan, do you think you can teach a child how to drive in theory? You have to show them where the pedals are etc. In order to proper teach gun safety, you have to have a gun in front of you. That's what I am saying. Just because you say " Don't touch a gun" doesn't mean they won't come across one and try to pull the trigger out of curiosity. If you always taught the child that the gun in dangerous and it DOESN'T explode on them, they might explore further. Under the assumption that " Mommy taught me a gun was dangerous, but it didn't hurt me. Let me keep playing with it and see what she meant by dangerous".
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Meganmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:20 PM
Edited by Megan (87282) on 2011-01-04 13:21:38
Edited by Megan (87282) on 2011-01-04 13:22:52
...because it works for stuff like hot ovens and needles and broken bottles?

Your examples don't work. Sex is natural and normal. Driving is something that pretty much everyone has to do. Shooting a gun is neither of those things.

I learned without a problem that a gun can kill you without having one in front of me. So did everyone else I know.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Anon1234567890member has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:23 PM
Edited by Louise (29559) on 2011-01-04 13:26:27
Edited by Louise (29559) on 2011-01-04 13:30:03
Panic, where did I personally say anything about how safe or unsafe I felt? All I've said is that there is currently absolutely no debate whatsoever about our gun laws, that it would never occur to me to own a gun, and that I'm quite happy with not being able to own one personally. I feel safe walking around town on my own and that is solely down to the fact that nothing has ever happened to me to make me feel unsafe.

A couple of times on this thread, it's been suggested that unless you've lived somewhere that allows guns, you can't say which state of affairs is preferable. Slightly hypocritical. Besides which, we all live in different countries. If we all had the same laws you might just as well all become part of England as there'd be no need to be separate. What works with you wouldn't work for everyone else.

I'm likening this to alcohol in my head. Europe has a massive culture of sophisticated drinking and kids start sipping wine around the dining table at a very young age. In Britain we wait until we're 18 (legally, usually 14/15 in actuality) and then we drink to get drunk. People have suggested that we could curb our drink problems by adopting a Mediterranean attitude and introducing children to alcohol earlier...only that wouldn't work over here, and you'd just get people drinking to get drunk at a much younger age. It's completely at odds with our culture. If guns were suddenly more freely available over here, I don't think it'd be lovely and straightforward. The main point is that nobody over here is arsed about owning a gun whereas many Americans would fight tooth and nail for their right to own one. Total cultural gulf. So there's no need to think we're backward or silly or pansies for not owning guns. It's just not something we give a toss about.

Also when suggesting how an American might buy a gun, I did say that I was going on nothing and that we have absolutely no reason to know. I still don't know why it matters that I don't know how to buy a gun in America.

Edit

1. Should someone go to jail for shooting in self defense to protect themselves.

Irrelevant what I think - the law in my country would probably send them to jail. Why are you asking me this?
2. Would you shoot someone if that was the only way to protect your life.

Irrelevant - I don't own a gun and would not have the opportunity. If you're asking would I fight for my life, yes. But I physically couldn't shoot someone because I don't have the equipment.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:24 PM
OMG, it absolutely does NOT work with hot ovens and broken bottles!! And it also doesn't work with drugs and alcohol - which is NOT something everyone has to do.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:26 PM
Megan, it doesn't work for hot stoves and glass bottles! How many times have you heard of children getting burned? How many times have you heard of children going into a cookie jar even if mommy said not too?

Guns are the equivalent of going into a cookie jar for kids. ( Especially with so many toy guns on the market) Kids aren't born with a fear/respect/caution for guns. You have to show them the gun and explain to them how it kills people. I recommend taking them to the shooting range and showing them how it works. The loud noise and seeing the bullets on the target SHOWS them how dangerous it can be. I think I saw my first gun shot at the age of 6ish, and that was enough to keep me away from my dads guns and never shoot them.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Meganmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:27 PM
Edited by Megan (87282) on 2011-01-04 13:28:47
Edited by Megan (87282) on 2011-01-04 13:32:29
And what Louise said.

Seriously. I'm not trying to tell you guys that you shouldn't own your guns. I'm saying that I'd never want to and I never want to live somewhere where people do.

I mentioned some pages back that I think it's way too late for the States. Your firearm problems are so culturally ingrained that to take those rights away would probably end in chaos. But I am extremely happy and approving of the way we deal with the things up here. I feel safe and so will any children I might have. Yay.

Jazz, how did every adult I know learn, then? I don't know a single person who was exposed to guns as a kid, and we're all just fine. We all knew perfectly well without being shown, thanks.

Drugs and alcohol aren't even slightly comparable to guns. They don't exist to kill things, for one thing. However, if you want to compare them, then what you're saying is apparently that you should take your kid down to the local dealer, pick up some coke, and show him how to snort it so he knows how to do it safely? I'm just following your example here, even though I think it's a little absurd.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By d4jmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:30 PM
I can totally testify that it doesn't work with needles found in a public park. Watched kids with my own eyes pick one up before I figured out what it was and could warn them. Kids old enough to know better.

And there is a thread right now about kids' injuries and someone (I think T?) posted about their kid grabbing the hot coil in the oven, also old enough to have gotten many warnings.

Yup, kids don't listen and aren't mature. I would never, ever bet my kid's life on 'don't touch a gun' and assume my warning would hold. Not ever. ESPECIALLY teens in the face of peer pressure.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun. (karma: 2)
By AlwaysOnStagePremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:30 PM
I disagree that telling a child not to do something garuntees they will do it. Especially if it's approached properly. If you just say "don't do that", then of course most children will still investigate, especially young children who wouldn't feel guilty about going against their parents. However, explaining to children "It could hurt you or mommy or daddy, so we're going to keep it in a safe place. I'm not going to touch it either." (So on and so forth, answering questions, having a discussion).

Doing this would help a child feel like it's a responsibility of theirs to not touch it, and they begin to understand why the rule of "don't touch the gun" is in place. They will begin to understand that like the big knives on the counter, the gun could hurt people and so only the adults use it and only when they need to. Of course it doesn't work for 100% of children (because what works 100% of the time anyway?), but if a parent thinks that it will work for their child there's no reason not to use this approach. Neither me nor my sister ever cut ourself on a broken bottle or burned ourselves on the stove. Just as there are examples for there are examples against. This, as everything else about child rearing, depends heavily on the will and temperament of the child. Saying it doesn't work at all would be as false as saying that it always works.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By d4jmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:33 PM
But since we know that it doesn't work 100% of the time and can't predict which camp our own kid falls into, and it's a life or death situation, one cannot depend on one's parental lessons to protect the kid, no matter how wisely and how often we give the lesson.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:33 PM
Megan, I understand what you are trying to say. All I am saying is that you don't know what the future brings in ten or twenty years for your children. As you share the border with the United States, our cultural gun influences might cause a huge inflation of black market guns in your country.

I think Louise has less to worry about, because she doesn't share a border with us.

You can't say with a guarantee that your children won't be exposed to guns. Are you going to ask each and every single care giver of your children if they own a gun in the house? Are you going to follow them around 24/7 to make sure that they never ever run across a gun?
I am not saying that you SHOULD own a gun if you feel uncomfortable with it. I am just asking you to maybe have more of an open mind to showing a child how much harm a gun can do in the wrong hands.It may save the life of your future children.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Meganmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:36 PM
Jazz, even if we wanted to, most parents up here wouldn't even have the option to show a kid because they just aren't around for that. It would be extremely difficult to even find a gun to show a kid unless you took them to a range, and the only one I know of requires that you're 18. Guns just aren't accessible, thank goodness.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:38 PM
It's just not something we give a toss about.
You're arguing pretty vigorously for something you don't give a toss about. And are you SERIOUSLY asking me why I think you should inform yourself about a topic before you draw conclusions? You don't need to live in the US, but if you're going to comment about a topic, you maybe want to have some (ANY) knowledge about it. Isn't that perfectly obvious? Even to a woman?

Seriously. I'm not trying to tell you guys that you shouldn't own your guns. I'm saying that I'd never want to and I never want to live somewhere where people do.
You're arguing pretty vigorously for something you don't give a toss about. And are you SERIOUSLY asking me why I think you should inform yourself about a topic before you draw conclusions? You don't need to live in the US, but if you're going to comment about a topic, you maybe want to have some (ANY) knowledge about it. Isn't that perfectly obvious? Even to a woman?
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun. (karma: 2)
By Meganmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:41 PM
I'm sorry, Chris, I didn't realize that this topic was about owning a gun in the UNITED STATES ONLY. If that were the case, I wouldn't have bothered. I thought it was open to everyone and it was possible to debate about the laws within our own countries. My mistake, I guess.

Seriously.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:45 PM
Edited by jazz_lover (99333) on 2011-01-04 13:47:17
Louise I asked you those 2 questions because as a gun owner, those are very important questions that every gun owner should ask and answer.

I assume that you are not in the right mind to even own a gun, so there is no argument about what you feel about guns. You probably won't even be able to get a permit here based on your comments about your personal opinions of guns. By not answering the questions, I see where your mind frame is, that is all.

If you don't give a toss about it, why are you even participating in this debate? You aren't of the right mindset to even own a gun, you don't give a toss, and you wouldn't be able to defend yourself. Why are you still on this debate?


Megan, this topic IS open to all the other countries too. It just seems to be a pretty clear divid between the countries. Plus, not many Canadians to debate with, so I guess you are stuck with us arrogant Americans ;)
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:46 PM
OK. Apology accepted. But from now on, let's just assume that every thread is about the US unless specifically stated otherwise.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By AlwaysOnStagePremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:46 PM
Well, if we're going to have children be such an important part of this debate, I think we should be more specific about the kinds of children we're talking about.

Pre 5 years old I think we can all agree that the parents, if they want to, can have pretty much complete control over their child's environment. They CAN ask every caregiver about gun status, and, if applicable, make it clear that the child should not be in any location where there are guns near.

It's when the child gets older and is in more environments uncontrolled by the parent that this begins to become less and less true. Let's say at 9 years old, a child is invited to a friends' party and a part of their day is unsupervised (such as taking place in a nearby room but not monitored second-by-second by the parents). The more circumstances like THESE are present, the more likely a child is to encounter a gun. However, the likilihood can still vary greatly. Parents calling beforehand asking the friend's parents if they keep guns in the house and if they would be safely stowed or out-of-reach for the party.

Going into pre-teen and teen years, the liklihood increases. Environments are less controlled and less predictable. However, by this time, I think a good number of us would agree that a gun safety class would be appropriate. By this time both mind and body are reasonably developed, and the parents can still control to some degree whether the pre-teen/teen has easy access to a gun through legitimate channels.

I'm not really sure how everyone will incorporate this into their debates, but I am starting to feel that the vague use of "children" is hindering this debate. After all, a 3 year old is very different than a 13 year old, even though they are both children. Perhaps what we are really disagreeing on is WHEN, in childhood, it becomes advantageous to allow a child to handle a gun for the sake of learning and understanding gun safety.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:53 PM
Edited by jazz_lover (99333) on 2011-01-04 13:54:38
AlwaysonStage, this is just my PERSONAL parenting style when it comes to guns.

0-5. No information about guns. My kids will most likely be in my care at this time, and would have very minimal contact with guns. If I have them in the home, I would tell them " You can not touch this" and always keep it out of reach.

6-10. I would let them hold an unloaded handgun and tell them stories about kids shooting themselves or their friends. I would explain to them that it is a dangerous object if it is treated without care and respect.

10+ I would take them to shooting ranges and show them how much harm a gun can do. Around 10 is when they hit their preteens and I have less of a watch over them. Peer pressure probably kicks up around this time and I want them to be able to have knowledge about guns. When I was around 12, I went to a friends house where they were touching their parents guns. I had to take it away from them, put the safety back on, and tell their parents. I think that my education helped me save my friends from a unfortunate situation. If I had a FEAR of the gun, I most likely wouldn't have been able to touch the gun and put it away safely. Thank heavens they didn't shoot me by accident, but that could have been a real situation that YOUR children may be faced with.
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