Poll: Arts / Debates

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re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Anon1234567890member has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:55 PM
Edited by Louise (29559) on 2011-01-04 14:01:16
The title of the thread is "Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun". If you didn't want to hear from people who were against owning guns why ask? You obviously don't care about people's reasoning for not wanting to own one, and you don't want to acknowledge that there would ever be a middle ground, so why did you start the debate?

And PLEASE, enough armchair psychoanalysing!

This thread is doing my fruit in because we're all posting at the same time so I intended to leave it but since you arrogantly think you've got the measure of me because I didn't answer two questions that are WHOLLY IRRELEVANT to me as a NON-gun owner...

1 - no, I do NOT think that a homeowner should be prosecuted for shooting an intruder. I don't know where you've got the idea that I do. You break into someone's house and you forfeit your human rights.

2 - IF I had a gun and my life was in danger, you can bet your ass I'd use it. I said I'd fight for my life, didn't I? I have fingernails and heels and teeth in my arsenal which are going to have to suffice, but if I had a knife or a gun or indeed the ubiquitous brick about my person, it would get used. Not going to happen though.

How do you know what your "personal parenting" style is? You're not a parent, right? Interestingly you say that between ages 0-5 is when you tell them "do not touch this" when isn't that exactly the age when kids don't understand why they can't do whatever they're told not to, and touch hot ovens and broken glass? Not that I want to drag other people's kids into this debate, but someone else already did - the member's child who burned his hand. Isn't he four? As in aged 0-5? And had undoubtedly been told not to touch? Might want to save the parenting lectures until you have succeeded in parenting someone.

Panic, you're wilfully misunderstanding everything I say (and everything Megan says) so I can't be bothered trying to make you understand.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Heartmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:56 PM
My parents are Quakers and pacifists and, while not completely against the legality of firearms ownership, certainly have no desire to keep any in their house. I never held a gun until just a few weeks ago. Part of the reason why I wanted to learn was because I want - no, need - to learn about the safety features of a gun. As a human being, I consider it in my best interest to learn and prepare myself as best as possible for every scenario. It does me no good whatsoever to call myself a responsible person if I can't so much as flip the safety switch on a gun or unload the clip.

Is it at all probable or likely that I will ever need to know that? It kind of depends on what I wind up doing with my life, but no, not really. But it makes ME feel better that if a gun is thrust into my hands, I can not only aim and fire it, but I can ALSO unload it so it can't hurt anyone else. It's not rocket science, but it's not immediately apparent, and if there were an emergency one wouldn't have time to think it through.

It has been shown repeatedly and unquestionably that the best defense is a good offense - knowledge is power. "Just don't do it" works for a five-year-old, yes. But it won't do a lick of good for a nine-year-old, and certainly not for an 11- or 12-year-old. Would it work? Yes, but it's NOT the most effective method. The best way to handle these things is through solid understanding, demonstration, and explanation - this is a gun, this is what it does, this is how it can hurt you. If you find one, flip this switch, make sure it's unloaded, don't point it at anyone. And so on.


That said, I was a good, obedient kid. My parents thoroughly explained to me why you don't do those things, and as a kid I did keep my nose clean because I could reason logically and say "that could blow my brains out, I'm not going to touch that." As an adult, though, I want to fill out the gaps in my knowledge. I consider gun safety classes something basic I want in my repertoire.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 01:56 PM
Edited by panic (116436) on 2011-01-04 14:00:33 i added stuff. duh.
It's when the child gets older and is in more environments uncontrolled by the parent that this begins to become less and less true. Let's say at 9 years old, a child is invited to a friends' party and a part of their day is unsupervised (such as taking place in a nearby room but not monitored second-by-second by the parents). The more circumstances like THESE are present, the more likely a child is to encounter a gun. However, the likilihood can still vary greatly. Parents calling beforehand asking the friend's parents if they keep guns in the house and if they would be safely stowed or out-of-reach for the party.
This is just SO not grounded in reality. Hopefully, you're teaching your 9-year-olds not to (just for example) snoop through someone's bedroom drawers (which is where they're likely to find a gun). No one keeps a loaded gun on the coffee table when they have 9-year-olds in the house. I'm curious how a 9-year-old would "find" a gun in a house they're visiting. This is another fantasy scenario. That is absolutely NOT how 9-year-olds get their hands on guns. Doesn't happen.

edit: I should have said Doesn't happen - except in a household where the parents AND the children are completely uneducated about firearm safety. I'm sure someone can point to an isolated incident where this has happened. But it's a very unusual (and obviously stupid) situation.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Meganmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 02:00 PM
How does an American 9-year-old get their hands on a gun, then?

I'm just curious because I really can't think of a possible scenario in which a child of mine or my friends' could come across one. But that's America's Hat talking again, so I'd like to know.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 02:01 PM
Edited by jazz_lover (99333) on 2011-01-04 14:03:55 I meant Megan. Not panic!
Megan, I think that most 9 year olds would find a gun in the friends house, through an uneducated child of that household. Which goes back to my point, educate your children not to fool around with guns! Oh and teach them where the trigger is and NOT to push it. Triggers are pretty interesting to play with if you dont know what they are.

If you live in a bad part of town, and shall I venture to say the Ghetto, most youngsters in gangs have Saturday Night Specials.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By d4jmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 02:05 PM
I could think of lots of ways a kid could 'find' a gun, mostly having to do with snooping like looking for the suspected hiding place of Christmas presents and lo and behold what's this? That kind of thing.

Where I live I had every reason to assume that there would be guns in the homes of my son's friends. Guns that were not only not locked away but also not hidden. I basically had to put the fear of God into my kid to attempt to protect him from possibly idiot friends.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By AlwaysOnStagePremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 02:07 PM
It may be unlikely but not completely out of the question, in my eyes. The scenario I was thinking of was something like 1) The parents forgot to take it out of their bedside drawer and place it someplace higher such as a top-shelf of a closet or other out-of-9-year-old-reach place of their choosing and 2) The children, who want to play with a new toy for the birthday girl, go hunting for a screwdriver so they can put in the batteries. They search in 'daddy's drawer' and find a gun.

I didn't say that was the only way a child could find a gun, but accidentally stumbling upon one is a possibility.

To include your edit, I agree that it wouldn't happen in an educated household, but part of this debate is the idea that most people who have guns aren't educated to the level that we (general we, not specific we) think they should be.

Would you like to look beyond the scenario I gave (perhaps substituting it with one you find more 'based in reality' while I admit that I may not be the best at on-the-fly hypothetical scenarios) and consider the larger point that I was making that if we're going to talk about 'the danger to children' we should also specify the age/maturity/knowledge level we are defining these children as?
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 02:08 PM
Edited by jazz_lover (99333) on 2011-01-04 14:11:02
D4J, I remember snooping for a Christmas present and finding my dads gun! I didn't touch it though, because I knew what it was and my curiosity was pretty much dead at that point. Enough stories about children shooting their brains out, kept me from picking it up and playing with it.

Oh btw, this is a hijack, but I'm gonna get a pink Gloch for my Bday ;)

Alwaysonstage, I am very much for households becoming educated on guns. I do agree with you, that some families have NO business of having a gun in their home. Maybe if we spent our tax dollars on gun education instead of gun control, maybe we will have less accidents ;)
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 02:18 PM
How does an American 9-year-old get their hands on a gun, then?
I'm glad you asked. Typically, this happens in a household where both the parents and the kids are uneducated re firearm safety. The kid snoops through the parents' stuff and brings the gun out of the house. That's actually a fairly common occurrence, but it does not happen in households where everyone is aware of gun safety.

It may be unlikely but not completely out of the question, in my eyes. The scenario I was thinking of was something like 1) The parents forgot to take it out of their bedside drawer and place it someplace higher such as a top-shelf of a closet or other out-of-9-year-old-reach place of their choosing and 2) The children, who want to play with a new toy for the birthday girl, go hunting for a screwdriver so they can put in the batteries. They search in 'daddy's drawer' and find a gun.
This is just silly. If the parents in question are THAT stupid, you shouldn't let your kids around them in any case. DUH. #2 is completely absurd too. If the parents in question leave the 9-year-olds unsupervised during a party, I would not let me 9-year-old go to the party. These are basic parenting concepts that have nothing to do with guns. If you allow your 9-year-old to run amok, you are a bad parent. Guns or no.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun. (karma: 1)
By SaraTheGrouchmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 02:19 PM
It's a GlocK. Just saying.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By AlwaysOnStagePremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 02:28 PM
panic wrote:

This is just silly. If the parents in question are THAT stupid, you shouldn't let your kids around them in any case. DUH. #2 is completely absurd too. If the parents in question leave the 9-year-olds unsupervised during a party, I would not let me 9-year-old go to the party. These are basic parenting concepts that have nothing to do with guns. If you allow your 9-year-old to run amok, you are a bad parent. Guns or no.


Yes, continue to nit pick my scenario and avoid what I was trying to say. I'll avoid trying to make my thoughts or scenario clearer to you, because you clearly don't care.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 02:53 PM
It's not that I don't care. It's that your scenarios are disconnected from reality. When you have kids, you're not going to call their friends' parents to ask about firearms. That's preposterous. Why would you pick firearms from the long list of dangerous materials your kids might be exposed to? You'd have to also ask about gasoline, matches, insecticides, alcoholic drinks, car keys, razor blades, etc etc etc. If parents let their 9-year-olds handle ANY of these things, they're bad parents. And if you let your kids hang out with them, YOU'RE a bad parent. It has nothing to do with guns. You're just fabricating these scenarios whole cloth. And since you don't have a clue what you're talking about, they do not reflect any actual situation that your child would ever be exposed to.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun. (karma: 2)
By SaraTheGrouchmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 03:00 PM
I know 9 year olds who hunt and have better knowledge of guns and gun safety than the majority of the adults on this thread.

Be a parent and parent your kids. If you don't screw up, everything will be fine.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By AlwaysOnStagePremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 03:08 PM
I did invite you to insert your own scenario. I invite you to do so again. I'm not really attached to the scenario, it was just something I added in to try to get across my point of age being and important context when talking about children. If it has not done so for you, forget that it existed and perhaps re-approach everything else I said.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 03:21 PM
You're asking me to do your research for you?

I don't have a scenario. But I'm saying all the fabricated scenarios in this thread put forward by people who have never handled a gun are not realistic in any way. Instead of just making up an imaginary way guns might harm 9-year-olds, maybe you can base your scenario on a specific study or even a news story - basically anything that exists in the real world and not just in your imagination.

I guess my scenario is that I grew up in a town where everyone owned guns. Everyone learned how to shoot when they were very young. There was no gun violence. None. A few years later, we got a huge influx people who did not grow up in a gun culture, and the gun violence exploded. Nearly all the violence in that community is still committed by people who did not grow up around guns. Every time a kid brings a gun to school, you can be sure they grew up in a house where the parent tried to keep the guns away from the kids and just told them not to touch it. Kids who are educated about gun safety do not bring guns to school and they do not shoot people. Uneducated kids do those things.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By AlwaysOnStagePremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 03:27 PM
Edited by AlwaysOnStage (90901) on 2011-01-04 15:37:34 Added
I'm not asking you to do research, I'm asking you to stop freaking out about a hypothetical you don't like and consider the rest of my point. I came into this post saying "I don't know much, and don't really have a strongly formed opinion" and have been reading. The post you're trying to shred to pieces was not about my opinion or presentation of facts, but suggesting that for those of you that DO have a strongly formed opinion that you may not be taking into account that you have different 'children' in mind when you think of 'children'.

The scenario isn't really what mattered at all. It's amazing how you've avoided the point of the post and have zoned in on one part and just can't let go.

Added to say:
I think I do understand WHY you thought I was asking you to do research, which I believe to be a misinterpretation of inflection. When I said "insert your own", I don't mean you have to offer one up. Keep it to yourself if you like, or don't create one. I'm saying that figure out how to make THAT part of my post less distracting for you and consider the other point I raised.

I'm considering the conclusion that you won't touch the other part of my post because it makes sense and is therefore not really a debate point, which I guess I understand (this is a debate and debate is what allows it to progress), but if this is the case you could say "I understand your point but think your hypothetical is stupid" instead of trying to 'get me' with the same opinion of the scenario over and over again.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun. (karma: 1)
By Meganmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 03:35 PM
Kids who don't have access to guns don't bring them to school either.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By SaraTheGrouchmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 03:37 PM
^ Would you rather them bring a homemade bomb? A knife? Drugs? Come on... Guns aren't the only things that can do major damage.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun. (karma: 1)
By kandykanePremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 03:40 PM
I've related this story on DDN before.

As a seven year old I got my hands on a handgun and fired it injuring two other kids, a nine year old and the sixteen year old babysitter. It was a very traumatic experience. What was I doing? Showing off. Because my mom had a gun and I knew where it was. I knew what a gun was in theory, but no adult ever fully explained to me just how much harm could come from handling a gun.

That's the short version. But it come down to the same thing. The adults in my life failed me. They were the owners of the gun and were responsible for keeping it out of my reach and keeping me and the other kids safe. It's no different from a parent leaving the alcohol cabinet unlocked. It boils down to parent failure.

Even with this experience in my life, I'm still pro gun ownership. But I DO fully support safety and restrictions, as in safety classes required, no gun ownership to felons, etc.

kk~
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 03:43 PM
^you could say the same thing about drugs, alcohol and any number of other forms of contraband that get brought into schools. You know banning those other things has not worked, so I'm really perplexed why you think gun control laws would be any more effective.

I'm not asking you to do research, I'm asking you to stop freaking out about a hypothetical you don't like and consider the rest of my point. I came into this post saying "I don't know much, and don't really have a strongly formed opinion" and have been reading. The post you're trying to shred to pieces was not about my opinion or presentation of facts, but suggesting that for those of you that DO have a strongly formed opinion that you may not be taking into account that you have different 'children' in mind when you think of 'children'.

The scenario isn't really what mattered at all. It's amazing how you've avoided the point of the post and have zoned in on one part and just can't let go.
Is there a question or a point in there? Can't find one.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By HollieErin
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 03:49 PM
I've taken my hunter's safety, have taken the safety classes, written the exams, passed the mental stability and background check and am licenced by the country of Canada to own a firearm.

My guns are stored in a locked gun safe, with trigger locks separate from the ammo.

My father is a gun smith and I grew up with many guns in the house, never stumbled across any of them becuase they were properly stored.

I target shoot and chicken hunt. I'm sick of jackass un-educated liberals trying to turn me into a criminal.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Heartmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 03:50 PM
Edited by Heart (21721) on 2011-01-04 15:53:20
Edited by Heart (21721) on 2011-01-04 15:55:38
Interesting:


The 3,385 firearms-related deaths [in 1999] for age group 0-19 years breaks down to:

* 214 unintentional
* 1,078 suicides
* 1,990 homicides
* 83 for which the intent could not be determined
* 20 due to legal intervention

Of the total firearms-related deaths:

* 73 were of children under five years old
* 416 were children 5-14 years old
* 2,896 were 15-19 years old

National Safety Council, 2002

So, 6.35% of all youth deaths by firearms were accidental discharges. In other words, not very many at all. 31.85% are suicides, and an overwhelming 85.55% are 15-19, of an age that is more likely to slap you upside the head if you call them "children."

In fact, if you take 14 as a more reasonable cut-off, we are looking at only 489 deaths from firearms - in a country as large as America, a mind-blowingly tiny sum. And not all those are from accidental discharges.

Were I any better at statistics, I would take this further and explain that you have a better chance at something else bizarre happening, but I fail horribly at calculating odds. Use your imagination.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By hylndlasmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 03:50 PM
Edited by hylndlas (107168) on 2011-01-04 16:01:36 added
Megan wrote:

Kids who don't have access to guns don't bring them to school either.


Maybe so......but they could bring knives or even a homemade bomb if they wanted to.

If you ban guns something else will take it's place.

BTW I own a handgun, and I have a kid.

It stays in the gun safe and only comes out when we go to the range at the NRA. (Both my husband and I are members.)

I also wish the People's republic of Maryland and DC would let me get a concealed carry. (One of the reasons I miss living in Florida which is generally a gun friendly state). I sure would feel safer walking to the train at night after work considering some of my work has me in some of the more rougher areas of DC or even Baltimore. People are less likely to mess with you if there is even a remote possibility of you packing lead. This is even true in Baltimore which is the murder captial of the US. Unfortunately due to Marylands strict gun laws only the criminals "conceal carry". Which in turn makes it dangerous for the rest of the population.

re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Nyssasisticmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 04:31 PM
I still remember this clearly- When I was 4 years old, my family went out to a friend's property and shot guns. My father gave me a huge (at least in comparison with my 4-year-old physique) gun, showed me how to aim it, and showed me how to pull the trigger. When I fired, it knocked me backward off my feet. My dad told me that I just got the "kick" from it- that it was thousands of times more powerful from the other end.

Best firearm education I could ever have.

My parents NEVER made a secret of where they kept the guns hidden, and even now I happen across them sometimes. However, every time I'd look at them I'd think of how unglamorous getting knocked on my butt was. Growing up we were taught to always have a reverence/air of caution when it comes to guns.

I'm not necessarily adding to the debate because I think both sides have made some excellent points, but I did want to chip in my own experience with firearms/being raised around guns.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun. (karma: 2)
By imadanseurPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 04:42 PM
Renae, YOU have all been saying that kids need to know how to handle guns in case they find them, not me.


Please point out were I said that kids need to know how to handle guns in case they find them. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE point me to where I wrote that or insinuated that. Oh wait, you can't, because I never said that nor have I advocated that.

As for your country being safer (sorry I forgot where you lived...)

I got the stats from an article by Canada's National Post that cited figures from the RCMP where they revealed that "Canada's overall crime rate is now 50 percent higher than the crime rate in the United States.” Moreover, "Since the early 1990s, crime rates have dropped in 48 of the 50 states and 80 percent of American cities. Over that same period, crime rates have risen in six of the 10 Canadian provinces and in seven of Canada’s 10 biggest cities.”

He also cites the most recent complete data available from both countries that shows that in 2003, the violent crime rate in the United States was 475 per 100,000 people; while up north, there were 963 violent crimes per 100,000 people. The figure for sexual assault in Canada per 100,000 people was more than double that of the United States: 74 as opposed to 32.1; and the assault rate in Canada was also more than twice that of the states: 746 to America's 295 for the people.

Moreover, he cites research that showed the figure for sexual assault in Canada per 100,000 people was more than double that of the United States: 74 as opposed to 32.1; and the assault rate in Canada was more than twice that of the United States: 746 to America’s 295. Also, in 2005, Toronto had 78 murders; that’s a 28 percent increase in homicides since 1995.

So once again...your anti-gun laws are not keeping you safer.
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