Poll: Arts / Debates

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re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By amichelle523member has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 04:57 PM
I just don't see the point of owning them.


I live out in the middle of nowhere (in the midwestern U.S.). It would take the ONE police officer in my town over 20 minutes to get to my house, IF i was able to get to the phone quick enough. You better bet that if someone breaks in and threatens my family or myself I'm not waiting 20+ minutes to see what happens.

-Ashlee
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By CaffeinePremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 05:09 PM
I am not in this to debate, but while reading the other posts in this thread, one thing stood out to me: Jazzy's comment about a kid finding a gun and playing with the trigger because they don't know what it is and the harm it can do.

Firstly, if a child has a toy gun (and I think we all did, even if it was just a water pistol!), then they know what the trigger is. That excuse doesn't hold water.

Secondly I come from a country with tight gun restrictions (so I'm happily cheering Louse and Megan on from the sidelines), I've never handled a gun, never seen a gun removed from it's holster, but we get a shedload of media - both fictional and news/documentary -from the US, so we are shown what guns and other weapons can do, and it's rarely in a positive light. Even as a small child, I understood that Elmer Fudd was trying to kill Bugs Bunny with a shotgun. Didn't need to have one thrust into my hands to understand that Guns Kill Things.

And thirdly: the likelihood of a gun lying around in the street for a child to find - IN MY COUNTRY - is slim to none.

Guns just aren't a way of life for the majority of people in my country. There's more chance of a person robbing McDonalds with a tire iron, than there is someone going postal with a gun.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Meganmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 05:12 PM
Edited by Megan (87282) on 2011-01-04 17:14:45
Edited by Megan (87282) on 2011-01-04 17:18:21
I didn't particularly want to use Wikipedia, but alas:

"Historically, the violent crime rate in Canada is lower than that of the U.S. and this continues to be the case. For example, in 2000 the United States' rate for robberies was 65 percent higher, its rate for aggravated assault was more than double and its murder rate was triple that of Canada. However, the rate of some property crime types is lower in the U.S. than in Canada. For example, in 2006, the rates of vehicle theft were 22% higher in Canada than in the US.[7] Since violent crimes are a smaller fraction of all crimes, the difference between the two countries is less than the homicide rate might make it seem, and the overall rates are generally close (see Crime in the United States).[citation needed]

Furthermore, in recent years, the gap in violent crime rates between the United States and Canada has narrowed due to a precipitous drop in the violent crime rate in the U.S. For example, while the aggravated assault rate declined for most of 1990s in the U.S. and was 324 per 100,000 in 2000, the aggravated assault rate in Canada remained relatively steady throughout and was 143 per 100,000 in 2000. In other areas, the U.S. had a faster decline. For instance, whereas the murder rate in Canada declined by 36% between 1991 and 2004, the U.S. murder rate declined by 44%. [8] Surprisingly, both Saskatoon and Regina consistently have Violent Crime rates that would place them among the 10 most violent cities in the US, and often individually exceed larger US centres in terms of Total numbers for Aggravated Assaults and Robbery.[citation needed]

The homicide rate in Canada peaked in 1975 at 3.03 per 100,000 and has dropped since then; it reached lower peaks in 1985 (2.72) and 1991 (2.69). It reached a post 1970 low of 1.73 in 2003. The average murder rate between 1970 and 1976 was 2.52, between 1977 and 1983 it was 2.67, between 1984 and 1990 it was 2.41, between 1991 and 1997 it was 2.23 and between 1998 to 2004 it was 1.82.[9] The attempted homicide rate has fallen at a faster rate than the homicide rate.[10]

By comparison, the homicide rate in the U.S. reached 10.1 per 100,000 in 1974, peaked in 1980 at 10.7 and reached a lower peak in 1991 (10.5). The average murder rate between 1970 and 1976 was 9.4, between 1977 and 1983 it was 9.6, between 1984 and 1990 it was 9, between 1991 and 1997 it was 9.2 and between 1998 and 2004 it was 6.3. In 2004 the murder rate in the U.S. dipped below 6 per 100,000, for the first time since 1966, and as of 2009 stood at 5.0 per 100,000 [8]

Approximately 70 percent of the total murders in the U.S. are committed with firearms, versus about 30 percent in Canada.[11]"


This comes directly from Statistics Canada, our official government agency for statistics:

"Highlights
• A comparison of police-reported crime rates between Canada and the United States for 2000
shows that the U.S. has much higher rates of violent crime, while Canada generally has higher
rates of property crime. Despite differences in rates, trends in crime between the two countries
have been quite similar over the past twenty years.
• In Canada, there were 542 homicides in 2000 resulting in a national rate of 1.8 homicides per
100,000 population. By comparison, there were 15,517 homicides in the U.S., resulting in a rate
(5.5) three times higher than Canada’s.
• Both countries have seen a decline in the number of homicides during the past decade, particularly
in the U.S. Twenty years ago, the American homicide rate was about four times that of Canada.
• Similarly, the aggravated assault rate in the U.S. was more than double the Canadian rate in 2000.
The U.S. also showed a higher rate of robbery (65% higher) than Canada. About 41% of robberies
in the U.S. involved a firearm, compared to 16% in Canada.
• Canada reported higher rates for three of the four comparable property offences. There were about
30% more break-ins and motor vehicle thefts per capita in Canada than the U.S. in 2000. While
Canada has had a higher rate of break-ins since the early 1980s, the motor vehicle theft rate has
only surpassed the American rate over the last five years. The arson rate in Canada was 40%
higher than in the U.S., while the U.S. reported 11% more thefts per capita than Canada.
• In examining arrest/charge data, the U.S. had much higher rates for drug offences, impaired driving
and prostitution.
• The report also compares crime rates among the nine largest metropolitan areas in each country.
With the exception of Boston, the remaining eight large American metropolitan areas had homicide
rates much higher than any of the nine largest Canadian metropolitan areas. Conversely, Vancouver
and Winnipeg reported higher rates of break-ins and motor vehicle thefts than any of the nine
American metropolitan areas."

You can view the whole PDF here: dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection-R/Statcan/85-002.../0110185-002-XIE.pdf

I'm sorry, but your National Post article was either misinterpreted or incorrect.

I'm done arguing this. The statistics are clear. I've presented them over and over.

Here's all the info from 2009 as well, if you insist on something more recent:

www.statcan.gc.ca . . .


As for the other point, I said "you all" not "Renae personally."

EDIT: Sorry, Chris, you can go back to your country now. I just needed to correct the facts.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Wicked_Elphabamember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 05:21 PM
I also wish the People's republic of Maryland and DC would let me get a concealed carry.


I know right? I wish the People Republic of Illinois would let me conceal carry too.

I just don't see the point of owning them.


Then don't own one. Simple as that. Against guns? Don't own one!
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 05:26 PM
I'm not going to dispute anyone's statistics because they're all irrelevant. But Megan, you have NOT shown any causal link between gun control and a reduction in crime. You just keep saying Canada is safer, and Canada has gun control laws, therefore gun control laws make a country safer. This is a huge logical fallacy no matter how many times you repeat it. Using that reasoning, someone in Israel could argue that Canada should repeal its gun laws because violent crime is more common in Canada than in Israel where everyone has guns. That is not logical. It's mistaking correlation for causation.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Meganmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 05:28 PM
^All I was trying to do with the stats, Chris, was to correct Renae's allegation that my country is more dangerous than hers. Period.

Comment #9388201 deleted
Removed by Odessa (22571) on 2011-01-04 19:17:29 that's enough with the low-rent sexist comments, thankyou.

re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Meganmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 05:41 PM
What, you think you know more than the entirety of Stats Canada? I know you think Canada is a joke and all, but you're full of crap.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By d4jmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 05:44 PM
Wow, Baltimore is the murder capitol of the U.S.? And Ace of Cakes makes it look like such a nice place... (Yea, my only knowledge of Baltimore is from that show, lol.)

/end hijack
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 05:46 PM
I didn't say the statistics were wrong. I said they were irrelevant. Honestly, I didn't even really look at them because they don't have anything to do with gun control.

And FYI - I do not think Canada is a joke. I think CANADIANS are a joke. Big dif.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By imadanseurPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 05:52 PM
As for the other point, I said "you all" not "Renae personally."


Well color me confused but when someone types my name and then YOU, if figure it is directed at me. If it wasn't then why include my name at all especially when I never said all kids should be trained using firearms?

I'm done arguing this. The statistics are clear. I've presented them over and over.


The stats are clear depending on which ones you use and believe. Here Megan if it makes you feel better...YOU ARE RIGHT, YOU LIVE IN A MUCH BETTER COUNTRY, YOU WILL NEVER BE VICTIM OF A VIOLENT CRIME BECAUSE YOU ARE AGAINST GUNS, ALL HAIL CANADA!

feel better?
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Meganmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 05:58 PM
Edited by Megan (87282) on 2011-01-04 18:02:53
No, I don't. And I believe the ones from an official government agency, actually.

There's no need to get all caps locky and sarcastic about it, honestly. I just wanted to provide the facts from the most official source possible.

And...

Megan wrote:

YOU have all been saying


I thought "all" meant a group of people. Whoops.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun. (karma: 1)
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 08:23 PM
I'm so sure women are allowed to trash men ALL OVER THIS SITE, but my silly comment is removed. This is exactly why women make terrible comedians.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun. (karma: 1)
By ChristinePremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 08:26 PM
Dancing_EMT wrote:


Simple as that. Against guns? Don't own one!


^TRUTH! And people who are uncomfortable with guns should not presume to deny the rest of us our 2nd Amendment rights based on your own discomfort.

My father taught me to clean his guns when I was 6 years old. I understood that they were serious business. I didn't own a gun of my own as an adult until I was in my 30's and it wasn't a decision I came to lightly. Who knows, years from now, I may change my mind again. But it is a choice I make for my self, my family, and in the context of the community where I live. It is outrageous to think that such a basic right could be taken away from the citizens of this country based on the kind of bantering I'm reading here.

To answer the original question, I am for owning a gun, but I certainly don't believe others should be required to. Likewise, people who are against owning a gun themselves should not have any legal power to prevent others from exercising their right to make their own decision on this issue.

Let freedom ring!

Keep On Dancing*
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By imadanseurPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:08 PM
No, I don't. And I believe the ones from an official government agency, actually.


My stats were reported in the Times from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police study and report. My bad, thought they were part of your "government".


I thought "all" meant a group of people. Whoops.


And I thought my name being in front of something with YOU capitalized behind it meant you were addressing me specifically. Whoops.

I am still planning on renouncing my American citizenship to become one of the 170,000 people that become citizens of Canada since Megan has been so convincing that there is no gun problem in Canada, all the info about illegal guns going into Canada is just a myth, violent crime is a myth, sexual assault is a myth, and there is obviously no drug problem...far safer country.

I shall give up target shooting and teach my son to hate guns because obviously us American's live in a corrupted society with guns lying all around, dirty needles, knives, and broken glass. I am sooooo glad Canada has rid themselves of such things. *sings O Canada*
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By pondflyPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:20 PM
Edited by pondfly (218838) on 2011-01-04 22:29:53
You don't play softball with a gun or do crafts with a gun

Here you go- I know the person who makes these and they are real weapons.
Image hotlink - 'http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm23/pondfly/General/TacticalLamp.jpg'

Here is the one that sits right by my bedside (you can see the case on the shelf by the sidetable- I removed the mag and unloaded it for those of you who might get scared of seeing it.
Image hotlink - 'http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm23/pondfly/General/IMG00028-20110104-2229.jpg'
My other one that I keep unlocked, loaded and ready in the other room-
Image hotlink - 'http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm23/pondfly/General/DSCF1208.jpg'

Yes, both are loaded and ready as I put an arsonist in jail a few years back and the gang bangers have a price on my head.

Proof that even a child-9, educated on safe handling of firearms (he had a terrific score on a 300 yard range). Look at the finger placement and direction of the barrel.
Image hotlink - 'http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm23/pondfly/General/smile_OBR.jpg'

And a little motivation for the others out there......
Image hotlink - 'http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm23/pondfly/General/motivationalposter.jpg'
Image hotlink - 'http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm23/pondfly/General/schumer.jpg'
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun. (karma: 4)
By webstArmember has saluted, click to view salute photos
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:43 PM
Ok, perhaps it's time to chime in as another Canadian to help take a bit of the heat off of Megan.

The fact of the matter is that gun culture between the US and Canada (as well as the UK, Australia, etc) is SO radically different, that it's nearly impossible to compare the two.

I've honestly, in 22 years, never seen a gun in person. In fact, I don't know a single person that owns a gun. I have absolutely no idea how to work one, and I don't really have any desire to learn. Perhaps I'm naive, but I don't often worry about burglars entering my home, getting mugged, sexually assaulted, or needing to defend myself in a life-or-death situation. Even if that was something I worried about on a daily basis, I honestly wouldn't feel any safer with a gun on me.

I'm most likely not going to teach my children how to safely handle a gun, because I highly doubt they're going to be in a situation where they need to know how to safely handle a gun. That's not to say I'm going to leave them in the dark, or just say "guns are bad - don't touch!" I just don't believe that children need to learn how to fire a gun to learn that guns can seriously injure or kill people. Growing up, it worked pretty well with me, so I'm not too worried.

In Canada, we don't fear "the gun." It's not something we've put on some massive pedestal, and the general feeling towards them isn't that they're "evil." Outside of rural areas, it's just so rare to come across guns, and even in rural areas, they're usually used primarily for hunting - not self defence.

I do have to say though, to try and change the gun laws in the States would be a disaster. It goes against so many things that the country was founded on, and wouldn't do the country a lick of good.

Dancing_EMT wrote:

Simple as that. Against guns? Don't own one!


Heh, well I guess that's 6 pages of debate summed up in one sentence, now isn't it?
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun. (karma: 1)
By Meganmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:35 PM
Edited by Megan (87282) on 2011-01-04 23:39:25
^And that's exactly what I've been attempting to say for several pages now. Jeez.

Renae, I don't mean to harp on the validity or anything, it's just that mine come from the most official and comprehensive source and yours came from a newspaper's slant on one particular set of stats. Now can you can the sarcasm? It's kind of rude and certainly isn't helping. I'm dealing with you calmly and matter-of-factly, and all I'm getting in return in snark, which is really not fair on a debate board. It's kind of poor behaviour in an adult.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By d4jmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:45 PM
I always thought the debate board was made for snark. It's like the one place it's kinda fun...

:D
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Wicked_Elphabamember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:24 AM
d4j wrote:

I always thought the debate board was made for snark. It's like the one place it's kinda fun...

:D


I thought the snark was for the Secrets board with the "Can I be pregnant because I saw his penis" posts. ;)
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By d4jmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:27 AM
Ah, well that board's a given... :)
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Live_on_Broadway
On Wed Jan 05, 2011 06:41 AM
Edited by Live_on_Broadway (42627) on 2011-01-05 06:42:25
webstAr wrote:


I've honestly, in 22 years, never seen a gun in person. In fact, I don't know a single person that owns a gun. I have absolutely no idea how to work one, and I don't really have any desire to learn. Perhaps I'm naive, but I don't often worry about burglars entering my home, getting mugged, sexually assaulted, or needing to defend myself in a life-or-death situation. Even if that was something I worried about on a daily basis, I honestly wouldn't feel any safer with a gun on me.


^This. I'm also a Canadian, and this has been my experience as well. I've lived in both rural and urban areas, and I honestly can't think of anyone who owns a gun for self defense purposes. The only people I know with guns use them for hunting and keep them locked up and out of sight at all times. I just don't feel like we're a culture of needing guns to make us feel safe. /shrug

Megan and webstAr said it better than I can.

EDIT - Oh right, I forgot we're only talking about the US here... ;)
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By imadanseurPremium member
On Wed Jan 05, 2011 07:23 AM
Megan, I can find other stats that support my case, but my point is that there are so many different stats from different departments and how they collect it that there is always stats to refute what has already been published...but you pulled out Wikipedia and we all know how reliable that is, so I will just stop because who can compete with that?

Really you aren't going to even look at the possibility that some crime is worse in Canada, nor will you recognize the gun problem coming over the boarder. And you cannot show any statistics that show gun control lowers crime rates. Your studies do not show any cause and effect.

Our country was founded by winning our freedom from another country. Canada didn't have to fight England like we did. You don't have the same military structure, Navy, Air Force like we do. Our societies are completely different. It isn't a surprise that you couldn't possibly understand our gun laws or that people hunt here regularly, and target shoot for sport. For many people it is a way of life...and doesn't cause any problems.

You think none of your posts have been snarky or rude so far towards anyone (i.e. me or Panic...really??) Interesting perception. I disagree, but its probably just the gun toting American in me.

**Throws Maple Leaves All Around**

YIPPEEE!!
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Wed Jan 05, 2011 09:10 AM
All I want is for everyone to stop saying they want to enact laws because of the way they FEEL. The thing I find REALLY funny is that the some of the same people who've supported gun control because it makes them FEEL safer are the first people to object when others use that line of reasoning on other controversial issues like abortion and drug control. I believe legislation should be based on evidence when possible. And in this case we have PLENTY of evidence. Arguing about the evidence is fine - it's part of a healthy discussion. But ignoring the evidence in favor of your FEELINGS is actually quite frightening.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Meganmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:55 AM
Edited by Megan (87282) on 2011-01-05 12:13:06
Snark towards Chris doesn't count, as he outsnarks the snark before anyone else even thinks about snarking.

Statscan tells me that property crime is worse in Canada. I'm certainly not denying that. I'm just saying that on average, I live in a safer country and therefore I don't NEED to have guns around. That's all. See what webstAr wrote? We up here do just fine without them.

I'm not trying to tell you guys what kind of laws you should have, I'm just saying that the ones we have work darn well for us.

I forget sometimes how up in arms a lot of American can get when it's implied or just stated that another country is better at them than something. Anything. Living in a place that knows perfectly well it sucks at lots of things has at least made me comfortable with that- AND proud of the things we ARE good at, like not shooting each other that much and even generally raping and murdering a lot less than other places. I'm not particularly patriotic but I think it's okay to admit that there's a few things we're doing right here. That's not due to gun control, that's due to a complex set of things, but nonetheless it's something that we are fortunate to have, by and large.

The US has tons of awesome things about it, but it is not the best and only country in the world at everything. KTHNXBYE.

www.newsweek.com . . .

Hooray for Finland!
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