Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/02/2011 13:33:19
Are you pro or anti gun. What are your reasons for your choice?
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/02/2011 13:36:36
For me, I believe that anyone over the age of 18 should be allowed to buy guns and carry them. I personally believe that crime rates would go down if crooks knew that some people might be armed. I believe that crooks are already breaking laws in the first place, so even if there is a law banning guns, they wouldn't listen to it. They will be able to get guns on the black market. If I have a gun and I knew how to use it properly, I think there would be less of a chance for me to get mugged, murdered, raped, or kidnapped. For me, a gun is just an object that is neutral. It isn't "bad" or "good". The PERSON behind the gun is what is bad or good.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By fayeex
On 01/02/2011 14:21:53
I am against. I think this will give criminals excuses and a easy way out. if we were all allowed guns to protect ourselvs then whats stopping a criminal saying they were protecting themselvs which is why they shot the person? the gun could be dangerous to carry around as something in your bag could knock it or anything. personally i just dont like the idea of knowing many people around you have guns and not knowing if its for protection or not.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Heart
On 01/02/2011 14:48:48
110% pro Second Amendment.
if we were all allowed guns to protect ourselvs then whats stopping a criminal saying they were protecting themselvs which is why they shot the person?
Guns are legal in the US and this has never been a problem.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Christine
On 01/02/2011 14:59:16
I have huge issues with the irresponsible handling of firearms but I have to go with the US Constitution on this one. To deny the citizens of any nation the right to protect themselves from any individual or group which may wish to do them harm is like saying no one can own a car because they are sometimes driven by drunk drivers or used as getaway vehicles in bank robberies. I might also add, that where I live, wild animals are still a threat. Until you've seen a bear helping herself to the contents of your refrigerator, don't be so quick to dismiss the need for protection to a time gone by. Keep On Dancing*
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/02/2011 15:12:38
if we were all allowed guns to protect ourselvs then whats stopping a criminal saying they were protecting themselvs which is why they shot the person?
But when you enact gun laws, only the law-abiding citizens will get rid of their firearms. That means the criminals will be the only ones who own guns. That's just silly reasoning.
the gun could be dangerous to carry around as something in your bag could knock it or anything.
I love it when people pull stuff straight out of their butt. This does not happen. And the fact that you would even say something so blatantly ridiculous really tells me you have no idea what you're talking about.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By pondfly
On 01/02/2011 15:15:23
All for owning them and for concealed or open carry. 18 and over to purchase, any age for use with parental supervision. Any gun restrictions only make it easier for the criminals to act out. Come to Chicago and really see how well gun control did for this dump of a city.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/02/2011 15:25:32
I think it would also be really interesting to see which country each person is from, For the record, no one should be putting a gun into a bag with other stuff mixed up with it. You should be able to get to your gun within a few seconds. You shouldn't have to dig through makeup, tampons, waterbottles, books etc to get to it. That being said Fayee, I think you did bring up some good points that a lot of people against guns wonder about.I'm glad you brought them up, so we could discuss them.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By PureTap
On 01/02/2011 15:59:04
I'm all for gun control and we adopted it here in Australia about 14 years ago now. Most crimes now committed, such as burglary, involve a knife rather than a gun where, at least you have to be at reasonably close quarters and there is a 'human factor' involved in killing someone, rather than a remote factor. I haven't heard of too many drive-by knifings in Australia. In 1996, Australia brought in the new Gun Laws, which were:-
* banning military style automatic and semi-automatic firearms * limiting the availability of non-military style semi-automatic rifles and shotguns to primary producers, professional vermin exterminators, and a limited class of clay target firearm users * introducing registration for all firearms, including long arms * grouping firearms into 5 broad licensing categories * requiring all licence applicants to establish a genuine reason for firearms ownership * requiring all licence applicants other than those applying for category A firearms to establish that they have a special need for the particular category of firearm * requiring that permits be acquired for every new firearm purchase, with the issue of a permit to be subject to a waiting period of at least 28 days to enable appropriate checks to be made * stricter storage requirements for all firearms * requiring all sales to be conducted by or through licensed firearms dealers.
At the same time, they also brought in the National Gun Buyback Scheme, where you could take your firearm into a Police Station and you would be paid money for handing it in. My husband did this with the two rifles that he owned. We can still go to a gun club or pistol range, if we have the desire to shoot at targets (and trust me, being ex-Army Reserve and a country girl, I really enjoy target shooting), but we can't just keep one in the house, which is no great loss to either of us. Whilst gun crime in Australia is not non-existent, it has definitely been reduced because of these laws (and yes, I researched it on Government sites before I replied, and can quote if asked). Yes there will always be the guns owned by the larger criminal factions, but the majority of petty criminals in Australia (gas station robbers, house burglars, etc) which make up the majority of the crime statistics, don't have access to these times of weapons, so there are a lot fewer deaths as a result of these petty criminal actions either on behalf of the criminal or the defender. We have some of the most dangerous creatures in the world in Australia - particularly snake wise - but people have learned to leave snakes alone and call a professional Snake Catcher rather than getting out the .22 bolt action rifle and blowing the bejesus out of it. Much friendlier ecologically. We also have a lot less suicides by firearm nowdays also - it’s much easier to resuscitate someone who hasn't got a 9" wound in their head. Just to show that Gun Reform [i]can[/i] work if the majority of people in the country want it to work. Some would say we tend to roll over and display our bellies for scratching a little bit too easily in Australia, but I personally feel a lot safer for it. Cheers Di
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/02/2011 16:25:44
^That may be true in Australia, but it's not true here. If guns were made illegal, criminals would still have an enormous black market to purchase guns. Even today when guns are legal, criminals usually get their guns on the "secondary" market so they don't have to register them.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By PureTap
On 01/02/2011 16:43:18
Yep, I definitely agree - unfortunately it's gone way too far in the USA to be able to reform. We were lucky here because gun ownership hadn't gotten out of control (used in the literal sense, as in non-controllable) and we don't have any borders that we share with anyone so importing illegally is a lot more difficult to do. Much as I'd love to visit the USA, there's a bit of me that will be worried when I go over there because of the perceived threat of firearms, which is a shame. On the other side of the coin, I work in an area where I have had a lot of contact with USA Citizens over here, and all have said how much safer they feel while they are in Australia. Then, in the next breath, say how they can't believe that we let the Government take our right to bear arms recreationally away from us. I usually gently point out that that's probably one of the reasons they do feel safer here and they acknowledge I probably have a point... :?
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By poko
On 01/02/2011 16:56:33
Totally against. Everything PureTap said, and as well I am from Australia. I don't know anyone here who is PRO-Guns. I would not feel safe at all walking down a street knowing someone is legally allowed a firearm on their person...Its far too easy for someone to steal a weapon and use it for harm, kids could get hold of it....I jus don't see any good reason to need a gun. I think the only people who should be entrusted with them are police and those who serve in the military and even then, only have access to them while on duty. The only "gun" related crimes that mostly happen are in the drug and underground scene in some of the major cities...the rest are mostly knife related.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Wicked_Elphaba
On 01/02/2011 17:39:47
I don't know anyone here who is PRO-Guns. I would not feel safe at all walking down a street knowing someone is legally allowed a firearm on their person...Its far too easy for someone to steal a weapon and use it for harm, kids could get hold of it....I jus don't see any good reason to need a gun. I think the only people who should be entrusted with them are police and those who serve in the military and even then, only have access to them while on duty.
If someone is concealed carrying, you CANNOT tell. My ex concealed carry, it made me feel safer while in public. I wish I could conceal carry in the People's Republic of Illinois, but we can't due to the idiotic Chicago governors. Otherwise, I would. I'm a very big believer in the right to keep and bear arms. As soon as I get the money, I will join the NRA. While my ex was carrying (concealed) while we were in public, you COULD NOT tell. I even forgot, but remembered if I put my arm around him and felt it. You never saw a bulge in his shirt or anything. He had a hip holster that went on the inside of his pants. He also wore loose flowing shirts. So, a child getting ahold of it is an argument for the lefty nut jobs to take away one of our constitutional amendments. If you have a child and a gun in the house, that is what they make safes and locks for. I grew up with a gun in the house. I KNEW NOT TO TOUCH IT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. It was also up high to where I couldn't reach it. I also believe in teaching firearm safety at a young age. My version of firearm safety from my parents? "You don't touch daddy's gun under ANY circumstances, it can kill you if you don't use it right". Sure enough, there were never any accidental shootings in our house.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By reel_faerie85
On 01/02/2011 17:39:49
I'm pro gun as I believe that there are people out there who own guns for the right reasons. I am also pro licences for guns, including air rifles. I believe the UK law has nearly got it right. However I don't assume that any laws of any sorts will stop guns falling into the wrong hands, neither will they stop people using guns for the wrong reasons. I've had an air rifle held to my head by my ex. He also had a shot gun (licenced as per UK law) but it didn't stop him threatening to go get it and blow my brains out. Thankfully he changed his mind. The police however did revoke his licence...fat load of good that is though, as the guns are stored at his parent's house and he has full access to them. I keep an air rifle just in case the loser dares to pull any stunts again.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/02/2011 18:19:49
I think I feel SAFER knowing that citizens are carrying. A good example would probably be something similar to the Virginia Tech Massacre. Yes, a gun did indeed kill 32 people and wounded 25 others at this Massacre. All it could have taken was one armed student who could have shot the bastard when he pulled a gun on everyone. While one gun DID get in the wrong hands, another one could have saved over 32 lives. I can't speak for all states, but Sueng-Hu Cho ( the killer) could NOT have gotten a carry permit in the state of California. I highly doubt that he had a legal carry permit in his state. He was not under the right mental state to even own gun, but he did. Here is an example of a gun falling into the wrong hands. There are always going to be criminals who get ahold of guns. Knowing this fact, I indeed feel SAFER knowing that citizens might be carrying;citizens that could have shot Sueng-Hu Cho before he killed so many people. "It also means that crimes of passion are less likely to occur: if there's no gun around when someone comes home to find their partner in bed with somebody else, then there won't be a shooting death of the partner or their illicit partner." I understand where you are coming from, but I disagree with you. It isn't that hard to reach for a baseball bat, knife, wire, frying pan, shattering a glass object over the partners head. The gun is just a neutral object that someone uses to kill. If it isn't a gun, they WOULD find another object to kill someone with. As for kids , I think you should parent your child about gun safety. I held my first gun at the age of 6 ( Unloaded of course! ) and my dad told me to NEVER touch it because it could kill people. Unless your kid is a retard, I am sure that they should get the jist of gun safety. If your child is a retard, I understand arguments for not keeping a gun in the house.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By PogMoGillies
On 01/02/2011 18:45:35
While I personally don't feel comfortable with guns, my husband owns two. Before our baby is born, there will be trigger locks on the guns, and the keys and ammo will be kept in a safe. it is families who don't take basic precautions who have tragedies happen with children too young to understand gun safety.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By PureTap
On 01/02/2011 18:49:20
I understand where you are coming from, but I disagree with you. It isn't that hard to reach for a baseball bat, knife, wire, frying pan, shattering a glass object over the partners head. The gun is just a neutral object that someone uses to kill. If it isn't a gun, they WOULD find another object to kill someone with.
Ah yes, but it only takes one bullet to kill a person [i]quickly [/i] if shot in many different areas of the body but, with all the other methods that you mention, there is a certain amount of force required to carry them out and more likelihood of a person being savable afterwards. How many times have people thought "I could kill X if I had a gun right now" but regretted it a few minutes later - at least with the other methods, there is a chance for reflection or an 'Oh my god, what have I done, call 911!' That's the way I see it. Also, I'm genuinely curious - not just at Jazzy, but also with others also - why do you feel safer walking around with a gun, concealed or otherwise? Could it be perhaps because you know other people are walking around with a concealed weapon and this is just perpetuating it all? We have Restricted Gun Laws here and I have never [u]once[/u] felt like I would have been safer walking around with a concealed weapon because there is no need for it because I know there is a very, very slim chance that anyone else has one. Also, because of our restrictions, there is a very high unlikelihood that the kid that Jazzy mentions would have had the opportunity to find a rifle/pistol in the first place - we have more than our share of angsty downtrodden teenagers over here, but don't ever have any mass shootings in schools, so something must be working right. Now, I'm not saying that USA is reformable because it clearly isn't, but I feel really sad for you guys because it has gone so overboard in your country. How awful that an otherwise peaceful group of people feel the need to pack iron in order to feel safe. I really don't mean to sound patronising when I sound that (but realising it probably does, sorry) but it's genuinely a feeling of loss for your country.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By amarath
On 01/02/2011 18:52:18
I love it when people pull stuff straight out of their butt. This does not happen. And the fact that you would even say something so blatantly ridiculous really tells me you have no idea what you're talking about.
What are you talking about, Panic? That totally happens. Last Christmas break, I was at this restaurant here in Houston (Skeeter's near West U, if you're interested, which I think you're not, but for any Houstonians in the thread), and this cop apparently forgets where he has his gun, sits down, and the gun goes off, ricocheting up near where the cashiers are. Everyone flips out for a moment, and then the poor cop who probably only wanted to eat his burger in peace got to spend his lunch break calling up other cops so that the incident could get taken down. Long and kind of useless story, but the fact remains that people do idiotic things all the time with guns, like this presumably trained cop, who knocked the safety off his gun and let it go. As far as guns go, I'm totally cool with people who like shooting clay pigeons or real pigeons or deer or things like that. To me, those are normal uses for guns. I generally find people who own guns for self-protection to be on the nuttier side of things. I have more fear of monsters under my bed than I do of home invasions or getting mugged.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By SaraTheGrouch
On 01/02/2011 18:59:52
I am 200% pro-guns. It's not the law abiding gun owners who commit crimes, it's the people who illegally possess them. Most crimes are committed with unregistered or stolen firearms. And did yall know that murder is the least common violent crime? But yes, murder by shooting is the most common method of murder. I'm not going to cite official stats because I'm feeling lazy right now, but that's the gist of it. But either way, people don't shoot people, crazy people who aren't law abiding citizens to begin with, shoot people. And any smart gun owner with half a brain who keeps their guns in a house with children know to a) properly store them, b) teach their kids about the guns from a very early age. That includes don't beepin' touch them, but also how to safely handle them.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/02/2011 19:02:02
Puretap, I think that I feel safer knowing people are carrying because if a criminal pulls out a gun, the likelyhood of them being stopped by a citizen is greater if everyone was armed. If I could personally carry, I would feel much safer. This has to do with the fact that I am a 125 pound female with not very much muscle on me. I would not be able to outrun a 250 pound guy who is trying to physically hurt me. If I had a gun, I would be able to theoretically defend myself in a condition like this. "I generally find people who own guns for self-protection to be on the nuttier side of things. I have more fear of monsters under my bed than I do of home invasions or getting mugged." Amartha, you may say that, but hopefully you will never be put into a position where you wish you had a gun. You may personally never been in a position like this but home invasions/muggings happen on a daily basis in my area. My guy goes to several calls a day that involves things similar to this. I honestly find it a bit nutty that you WOULDN'T want a weapon to protect yourself. I don't understand the theory of making it easier for criminals to take advantage of you. Oh and btw, the cop you mentioned amartha, is an idiot. WTF is he doing with a fing gun in his back pocket? Holy crap! Oh and he sounds like a rookie, people who are armed do NOT forget they have guns. You have to take a whole different attitude when carrying, and this poor cop probably isn't used to carrying guns or something. Edit Puretap, I think the part of the reason is exactly what you mentioned. I KNOW that there are people carrying guns illegally so I feel better knowing I had an offense. Of course if NO ONE had guns in America, it would be a moot point. Unfortunately we share our borders so the likelihood of a black market for guns is much higher.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Wicked_Elphaba
On 01/02/2011 19:32:56
Also, I'm genuinely curious - not just at Jazzy, but also with others also - why do you feel safer walking around with a gun, concealed or otherwise? Could it be perhaps because you know other people are walking around with a concealed weapon and this is just perpetuating it all?
Because when I lived in Florida, where it was legal to carry, some of my favorite stores were in the hood. I've ran calls in said hood and i've seen a 13 year old with a gun. So yeah, someone wants to mug or rape me? He'll have acute lead poisoning and i'd feel no remorse.
Ah yes, but it only takes one bullet to kill a person quickly if shot in many different areas of the body but, with all the other methods that you mention, there is a certain amount of force required to carry them out and more likelihood of a person being savable afterwards.
Not necessarily. One hit with a baseball bat can give someone a lethal head injury, you don't even need to swing that hard. A single hit with a knife can slice someone's carotid artery and they bleed to death in 3 minutes, if that. It takes 33 lbs of force to crush someone's trachea. If their neck is not cut open by a doctor or paramedic within 6 minutes, they die. I've only had 1 lethal shooting call. I can't tell you how many other types of calls i've had where someone was assaulted and ended up with a lethal head injury. Here is a video I got from my boyfriend that also sums up my feelings on the issue. http://vimeo.com/17828284
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Heart
On 01/02/2011 21:39:31
I feel safer knowing that U.S. citizens can carry firearms the same way I feel safer walking down a dark street at night while carrying mace. If I walk to my car in the parking lot empty-handed, I feel vulnerable - there's no way for me to protect myself if something goes wrong. When I walk carrying my pepper spray, I'm just as cautious, but I know I can protect myself if need be. I'd feel even safer if I carried concealed. I live in NJ, a state with fairly strict gun laws, and I have a friend who got a gun for free when he bought his car. Unlicensed and extremely skeazy. You can get a gun anywhere if you know the right people. I think all the gun hatred is silly - England, Australia, and so on have the same kind of problems - just with knives. And if they outlawed knives, it'd just be the next thing. Crime will happen no matter what. Honestly, when I watch my cop shows, or truTV programs like Most Shocking Videos or whatever, I'm always struck by how useless the cops seem in other countries where they can't carry guns. They have no leverage, they just deal out empty threats and try to smack the criminals around with their nightsticks. For instance, there was this one clip of a kidnapping in a Hispanic country (I wanted to say Brazil, but guns are legal there, so search me). The man was holding a knife to the victims' throat, and there was nothing police could do. They wrestled with him, batted him around, but that was about it. The victim got away by grabbing his knife and basically saved herself. If this took place in the US, a sharpshooter would be able to take out the criminal - I've seen clips where the weapon is shot out of the criminal's hand. (Yes, there's other ways of doing it, I'm not saying this particular scenario would have been saved by armed police, I'm just saying seeing that video clip is what really impressed that point on me.) I wouldn't feel safe if our police weren't armed just as heavily as the criminals are. In America the premise for our firearms ownership is if the government oversteps its bounds, we would be able to fight back. We are able to protect ourselves not only from other citizens, but from the government itself. Hence why we're very skeptical any infringement on that right. We are the ultimate check on the government's power. Foreigners, what do you think about that? If only the military is armed, what happens if a coup takes place? If they have all the force, who has a check on that power?
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By PureTap
On 01/02/2011 22:01:05
Hi Heart In Australia, our police are armed, they just only use them in absolute emergencies. Some are now starting to carry tazers as well for those times when you want to take someone out but not potentially kill them. Our police force is trained to use unarmed combat or tazers as a first defence, and pistols in emergencies only. What would happen if we had an armed coup? Probably not going to happen here as a surprise because not enough people carry arms to gather together an armed coup. We also have a well enough paid military force here, both full time and reservists, that we could combat any armed coup within a short period of time. Fortunately our country is not in an unstable enough condition, at this point in time, for this to happen though. Cheers Di
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Heart
On 01/02/2011 22:10:50
Were there a coup, it would be the military overtaking the government. Most coups come from factions within the existing state.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By angelfish10
On 01/02/2011 22:12:52
I'm okay with the idea of other people owning guns, but I would never buy one for myself. It is commonly said that you should never point a gun at someone unless you are fully prepared to take their life. I can't see myself feeling that way. Not unless Osama Bin Laden himself was walking down my street, but in all likelihood that's not going to happen. I'm all about self defense, which is where things like mace come into play. If I ever find myself frequenting less savory areas of town I will go out and buy myself some. I just don't want to kill anyone. The main problem I see with people carrying weapons is that it can cause arguments and fights to escalate very quickly. What would have been a relatively harmless bar brawl can end up with one or more people gravely wounded or dead. This isn't enough of a reason for me to support a wholesale ban on handguns, but it is a case against every Tom, Dick, and Harry carrying a loaded gun with them everywhere they go.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Wicked_Elphaba
On 01/02/2011 22:21:00
In Australia, our police are armed, they just only use them in absolute emergencies
Uhhhhh....Cops in the US don't shoot people for pleasure. They shoot when someone is pointing a weapon at them. They have tazers for when people are resisting to the extreme.
Our police force is trained to use unarmed combat or tazers as a first defence, and pistols in emergencies only.
That's the way it works here too. Don't know if any of you remember the story from earlier this year, but Dante Morris was pulled over by 1 officer down in Tampa due to having a non-visible tag or something like that. Routine traffic stop right? The officer felt something wasn't quite right so he called for back-up. 2 officers were shot and KILLED in the Line of Duty. The suspect had an ILLEGAL gun. Law abiding citizens do not buy guns illegally and shoot cops. No, law abiding citizens are responsible with their firearms and use them for home/self defense. Non-law abiding citizens are irresponsible with their illegally bought firearms. See a pattern here? All line of duty deaths I have heard of that involve firearms were carried out by an illegally obtained firearm. All you guys against guns.....Do y'all see a pattern?! Banning firearms INCREASES the problem. Kinda like banning abortion. Abortion is illegal in Ireland, women in Ireland travel over to England for their abortions. It's the same concept. If you ban guns, people DO find a way to obtain them!
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/02/2011 22:21:25
^I disagree. I think people would be LESS likely to start a fight if they didn't know whether the other guy was carrying a gun.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By PureTap
On 01/02/2011 23:12:25
Whoops, sorry Heart, I thought a coup was just an civil uprising - must look up definitions more. Military Coup - not going to happen here in Australia. I'm a civilian with the Department of Defence, and have a husband in the armed forces, that I would probably know about it anyway. Our military are paid quite generously here, as well as great benefits such as cheap rent on housing, free dental and medical and our Politicians are so placid for the most part, that it aint going to happen in my lifetime (as much as Julia Gillard's voice annoys the absolute heck out me!)
Uhhhhh....Cops in the US don't shoot people for pleasure. They shoot when someone is pointing a weapon at them. They have tazers for when people are resisting to the extreme. Our police force is trained to use unarmed combat or tazers as a first defence, and pistols in emergencies only. That's the way it works here too.
Sorry, I wasn't implying anything otherwise, I was just replying to Heart saying that our police force was so ineffectual because they don't carry firearms when, in fact, they do - they just don't use them, or have to use them, very often.
Non-law abiding citizens are irresponsible with their illegally bought firearms. See a pattern here? All line of duty deaths I have heard of that involve firearms were carried out by an illegally obtained firearm. All you guys against guns.....Do y'all see a pattern?!
I think you're referring to USA people here, but if not, that's what I'm trying to counteract about Australia. We don't have those sorts of incidents anyway, because it would be so bloody difficult to get an underground firearm of any sort in Australia, that people don't even bother. I'm not saying that we're gun-crime free, but we're certainly pretty low down in the statistics for the most part. Anyhoo, enough banging on about how much I love my Country, I'll bow out and give this back over to the USA citizens because obviously it's more applicable to you guys than us - I was just trying to demonstrate more than it can be done, and has been done, reasonably effectively in a non-US setting. Cheers Di
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By pondfly
On 01/02/2011 23:38:55
I've been watching this from the sidelines for a while to see the direction before chiming in. As you saw in my previous post I said that I am for it and also for carrying of weapons in public. Before my injury I was an Arson Investigator, Tactical medic and other work for the government which I can't disclose due to security reasons. I hope to return sometime later this year, but not holding my hopes up. Contrary to popular belief, most law enforcement agencies are underpowered in comparison to the population that would use lethal violence against others. Agencies are finally getting AR-15 rifles when a lot of gangs prefer the use of an AK-47 which the round is nearly twice as large and uses much more powder to propel it. The body armor that is worn by most officers offers nearly no protection to that kind of round. US law enforcement agencies are only allowed to use deadly force as an absolute last resort. The reports, documentation, interviews, board reviews and other things that must be completed when a round has been fired even if nobody has been hit are crazy. Lets not even talk about the mental anguish that the officer has when they take a life (That is not taught in the academy). As it was previously mentioned so well, the Second Amendment – Militia (United States), Sovereign state, Right to keep and bear arms. A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed In 2008 and 2010, the Supreme Court issued two Second Amendment decisions. In District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), the Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm, unconnected to service in a militia and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Additionally, the Court enumerated several longstanding prohibitions and restrictions on firearms possession that it found were consistent with the Second Amendment. In McDonald v. Chicago (2010), the Court ruled that the Second Amendment limits state and local governmental authority to the same extent that it limits federal authority. I own several firearms and plan on purchasing several more in the next year, including a nice purple anodized one for my GF. But before I get her one she will undergo approved firearms training like nearly all firearm owners do. Some of my firearms are unlocked in my house and others are locked in my safe for secure storage. When my nephew comes over to visit, the first thing I do is to unload and lock my firearm(s) until he has left. Most legal firearm owners are very polite, well educated and have gone through at least one safety class of how to properly handle firearms. EVERY firearm that is sold has the 10 tips to properly handling the firearm included with the weapon and is also provided by the selling agency. Now as for concealed or open carry. I'm not going to pull the exact statistics, but feel free to dig them up if you so desire. The states or areas that permit the legal carrying of firearms the violent crime rate is lower compared to other states that do not permit. Anyone who has a concealed carry permit must take a class in order to obtain a permit and is always checked before purchasing another or if they have been convicted of a felony or in some cases lesser crimes. Personally, I feel better knowing that if I get caught into a position where I needed additional help and an armed citizen came up to offer assistance I'd take them up on that offer until I was able to get back up or restrain the subject. If someone is hellbent on obtaining a firearm, they will from either a person legally purchasing and ILLEGALLY transferring it to a person who is not allowed or they will obtain it from the black market. I feel better that I can protect my house and it's occupants from anyone who is perceived to be a threat.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/03/2011 00:03:30
as much as Julia Gillard's voice annoys the absolute heck out me!
Her voice is fine (I mean, Australian accents are annoying but what can you do?) but her HAIR is inexcusable. When you are prime minister of a MAJOR economic power, you shouldn't get your hair color from the grocery store. I'm just sayin.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Kekoa
On 01/03/2011 00:16:34
Eh, I'd prefer that nobody had guns, but alas...they're out there. I support the right to legal gun ownership, but I do think there need to be strict laws in place and I think that people convicted of violent crimes should never be allowed to own a gun. However, if your average Joe neighbor who runs the local bank wants a gun? Sure. Like everyone else, I'm more worried about the black market guns, but I don't think that's a reason to make obtaining a gun legally some sort of free-for-all. I'd never own a gun, but it's a right listed in our constitution and I think that (within reason) it's a right that law abiding, responsible citizens should be able to keep.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By AussieLaura
On 01/03/2011 00:41:22
I'm with PureTap 100% I don't see the "need" to have a gun for self defense myself, I would never shoot someone. The only need I see for a gun is for a farmer, same as the knife rules being enforced in Australia.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Cadbury_Eater
On 01/03/2011 05:50:46
I'm also another Aussie, and I absolutely support our gun control. In fact, I think our gun control is one of only three positive things John Howard did in his long term as prime minister. I absolutely don't understand the mentality of that it's safer for everyone to have guns to protect themselves. That means there are more guns out there, more possibility of accidents or falling into to the wrong people's hands. I think that many people with firearms would not be well trained. Young people should not be trained to use firearms. They can be impulsive and could easily shoot someone in a moment of anger. I think Australia's gun control laws positive effect of low gun violence. We have nowhere near the percentage of gun violence as US. I don't see how you can look at your statistics of shootings and armed robberies and say the gun laws are good as they are. Although, kudos to all the Americans knowing who Julia Guillard is. Many people think we have a president and the country's capital is Sydney.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By SaraTheGrouch
On 01/03/2011 08:23:19
For the Osama referencers out there...
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Brittany
On 01/03/2011 08:58:36
My dad has a shotgun beside his bed - purchased legally and there for any reason that it needs to be used. I'm very pro-gun. I don't know how to use a gun so I don't but I would someday like to learn just so I can feel secure. Too many people have guns from the black market (I know some of them) and there's too much crime in the world. I rather feel like I am protected and if someone breaks into my house they aren't going to get too far. I'm also pro-responsible gun use. Prior to purchasing a gun people should have to be able to prove that they actually know what they are doing. And people that do stupid things like point a gun at their face and accidentally fire it and end up dead are idiots and should not reflect poorly on the people that actually use guns in a responsible manner.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By d4j
On 01/03/2011 09:26:59
I don't own a gun but I'd like to know that if I wanted to keep one in my home for protection that I could. Though I personally think that having a dog is more of a deterrent to a burglar. If I had to train a gun on someone that means that they are already TOO CLOSE and should have been stopped prior to getting to that point. I don't understand how it does anyone any good to keep a gun in a house if you have to have it unloaded in one room and the bullets locked up in another. I guess if the very polite burglar makes an appointment with you so that you have time to get prepared then it would work... My father-in-law was murdered with a gun. A psycho from his office went postal and sprayed bullets into a restaurant and injured and killed many people. Would gun laws have prevented this nutjob from getting a gun? I don't know the answer to that, this happened in 1976 and I don't know the details of how he got the gun in the first place. As a result of what happened to his father, my husband is seriously anti-gun and would love to see laws like in Australia. And then I've got my dad, who is the most pro-gun person on the planet. (It's a lovely dynamic to be in between the two of them!) My dad has guns all over his house. He accidentally discharged one once when he was showing it to someone and he shot the floor. That scared the crap out of me and made me question if guns were for everyone. I always though my dad knew what he was doing! Anyway, ultimately I'm on the side of self-protection. You do what you gotta do in this world.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By pondfly
On 01/03/2011 09:59:06
I support the right to legal gun ownership, but I do think there need to be strict laws in place and I think that people convicted of violent crimes should never be allowed to own a gun.
All persons are run through the ATF database, anyone with a felony conviction are not allowed to purchase firearms. Some states also have higher restrictions like aggravated domestic violence.
I think that many people with firearms would not be well trained.
Every person who purchases a firearm are given a pamphlet of the safe gun handling tips, every person is also strongly encouraged to take a firearms safety class (some cities require it) and most classes are completely free.
Young people should not be trained to use firearms
Why would you not want a child to be educated on a firearm? They grow up playing with toy guns and seeing them on TV when they come across one. Wouldn't you rather the child be educated on that it is a dangerous thing, don't touch it and get a grown-up? Children are also encouraged to go out to a range and hunting to learn proper, safe handling of firearms and also as a bonding between family members.
I don't see how you can look at your statistics of shootings and armed robberies and say the gun laws are good as they are.
Most robberies are not done with firearms, they are usually a toy or some other object hidden to make it look like it was a gun- Check FBI statistics for further information.
I don't see the "need" to have a gun for self defense myself, I would never shoot someone
While I respect and support your decision, what would you do if you were forced into a situation where if you don't do something you will die? Do you just lie down and resolve yourself to death, or would you rather end that situation now? Even worse, you get killed, while having the availability to kill or injure a person but don't and then they continue to attack other persons, how would you feel?
Not unless Osama Bin Laden himself was walking down my street
Personally I wouldn't shoot him, I have better things in mind for that person. I'm thinking of a private tour of him visiting every police, fire, and military institution and charging a fee to give one punch to him with the benefits going to the fallen family funds.
What would have been a relatively harmless bar brawl can end up with one or more people gravely wounded or dead.
States that permit carrying of firearms the businesses are allowed to forbid them from being brought in (they have stickers at the front door). Lastly, a lot of people believe that the firearm is the end all for situations, it is not. Self defense and close quarters combat, less than lethal devices (taser, rubber pellets, OC spray), knives and other items that can be used as a defensive or offensive tactic. Drawing of a firearm is the last tactic used when placed in a life threatening situation and most times when the firearm is aimed on the offenders they will comply with the orders, whether it is a police officer or John Q citizen with it.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Megan
On 01/03/2011 10:39:14
When I compare the US's rate of gun violence compared to my own country's, I cannot see how anyone could possibly not be in favour of gun control. The per capita rate is astonishingly higher, and no matter what you all say about "it's the illegal ones, not the legal ones" the matter still stands that in my country (where it's obviously the illegal ones too) we have SO MUCH less gun violence, accidental deaths, etc etc etc. I live in a house with guns. My roommate is former Army and he has several legal guns, which he uses every few months or so when his military buddies go for target practice. He keeps them carefully locked up (unloaded) and with the ammunition stored separately and also locked. Despite all this, I'd be happier if they weren't in my house. I'd never even seen a gun in real life until we moved in together (except the ones strapped to German cops when I was living there), and that was just fine with me. Tons of my friends have never seen a real gun either. I'd never be able to shoot someone, even if my life were in danger. I couldn't do it. And I never want to own something that's sole function is to kill things. In the robbery scenario, quite frankly I'd rather give up my stuff than shoot someone.
Why would you not want a child to be educated on a firearm? They grow up playing with toy guns and seeing them on TV when they come across one. Wouldn't you rather the child be educated on that it is a dangerous thing, don't touch it and get a grown-up? Children are also encouraged to go out to a range and hunting to learn proper, safe handling of firearms and also as a bonding between family members.
Whatever happened to board games and family vacations as "bonding"? Also, I was certainly told as a child about guns and saw pictures etc- I knew what a gun was and not to touch one without having to have one in front of me. That argument holds no water whatsoever. I never needed to learn to handle one because there were none around me.
Most robberies are not done with firearms, they are usually a toy or some other object hidden to make it look like it was a gun- Check FBI statistics for further information.
Be that as it may, the statistics for actual ARMED robbery are still so much higher than in countries with stricter gun control. Bottom line is, having guns more accessible legally HAS resulted in a society in which gun crime is much higher than elsewhere in the developed world with stricter laws. There is no way around that fact. Now that the box has been opened, it's too late and you law-abiding citizens think you need them for "protection", but if criminals hadn't been able to get hold of them so easily in the first place you wouldn't need that "protection." Maybe it's too late now and you all do need the horrible things to feel safe, but it makes me so sad that it's come to that in your country. I'm very glad to live somewhere where I can feel safe without having a gun beside my bed.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/03/2011 11:10:57
When I compare the US's rate of gun violence compared to my own country's, I cannot see how anyone could possibly not be in favour of gun control.
That's faulty reasoning. from cato institute http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=4706
In Israel and Switzerland, for example, a license to possess guns is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of concealed firearms, and yet, admits Dr. Arthur Kellerman, one of the foremost medical advocates of gun control, Switzerland and Israel "have rates of homicide that are low despite rates of home firearm ownership that are at least as high as those in the United States."
And most importantly...
A comparison of crime rates within Europe reveals no correlation between access to guns and crime.
Please do not mistake correlation with causation. Anyway, y'all can have my guns whenever you're brave enough to walk into my house and get them. And FYI, my guns are NOT locked up. They are loaded and easily accessible. Oh and one more thing... If you wouldn't shoot someone, then you absolutely should NOT own a firearm for protection. They don't work as a deterrent unless you're willing to use them. Personally, if someone is crawling in my window in the middle of the night, I'm shooting the sucker. I have no problem defending myself and my family.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By rosalinde
On 01/03/2011 11:59:49
I'm against, but that's probably because over here it's so hard to come by one unless you're in law enforcement or a member of a shooting club (or whatever they're called). I've never held a gun, and only saw one in real life (as in, not in the holster of a policeman) when we made an illegal U-turn on a highway in New York state when I was on vacation there. The highway patrol guy came up with his gun out and I was about to freak -- I'd always thought they only did that in the movies! :P Anyway, I work as a teacher and I'm sure some of my students have access to weapons (can't deny the obvious), but I think it is safer in the streets knowing that it's illegal to carry a gun. Sure, I could be wounded or injured with a knife or something like that, but not from across the street; and I'm less likely to die as an innocent bystander if there's not a gun involved, I think. After all, with a knife they'd have to come within arms length -- you can't very well knife someone from a car in a drive-by killing, can you? Or go into a school and kill a dozen people in the blink of an eye. As for the second amendment (that's the one, right? I apologise if I have the wrong numeral): didn't that apply to the time when the Wild West was still Wild? I mean, when highway men were still prowling the forests of Europe, it was entirely legal to bear arms around here (unless you were a peasant in which case you were screwed -- gotta love a class society ...), but when those guys disappeared, the weapon-laws were changed, too. Wouldn't it be funny/silly if we were still legally allowed to carry swords and daggers because once upon a time we used to need those (although not anymore)? It's a tough vote, since it depends on what you were raised to perceive as normal. If your parents kept loaded guns and told you it was the only way to guard the family, you're unlikely to grow up thinking 'Mmm, I wonder if they're wrong actually.' I was raised to believe that guns are the reason people use them (as in: when you don't have a gun, you won't use a gun), in a country that makes fun of the US and their gunlaws -- so I will never think of guns as adding to any feeling of safety (see the highway patrol scene above ...).
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/03/2011 12:25:51
I think it is safer in the streets knowing that it's illegal to carry a gun
OMG look at the link I posted. Not true. This isn't a matter of opinion - we can compare countries who allow guns vs countries who don't.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Christine
On 01/03/2011 14:48:02
I know this is a hot issue, but I can't help but wonder why people want to believe that if someone wants to murder another, they need a gun, and if guns are prohibited, murder will be avoided. The September 11th terrorists used BOX CUTTERS. We just had a minister arrested for beating his wife severely, then putting her in a car an faking an automobile accident. And, apparently, he did this to his first wife years ago and got away with it until the second homicide. Poison? Knives? Arson? When evil people are intent on evil, a LAW isn't going to prevent them from perpetrating their crime. It's still illegal to assault or murder, does a law stop the assailant? NO! Although the second amendment to the US Constitution guarantees the rights of citizens to bear arms, there are still intelligent controls on their purchase. Convicted felons and those with a history of mental illness or violence can not own a gun. When you apply for a pistol permit you need to be investigated by the local sheriff department and you must provide two references who are not relatives and have lived in the state for a certain period of time (varies from place to place). Guns have serial numbers and if used in to commit a crime can be traced to the original purchaser. In states like mine (PA) you must have a license to hunt and although shotguns do not require a permit, you must take a gun safety course in order to obtain a hunting license. Before the budget cuts of recent years, the high schools included gun safety as part of their health education classes. Parents are lectured about locks and storage of firearms at their toddler's well child check ups. America is not the "Wild, Wild, West" of the movies. Good firearms safety includes a healthy respect for the proper care and handling of guns. It just makes good sense to make sure people know more about them than they see on television. If people are against owning firearms, they don't have to. It isn't as if having guns legally available makes them mandatory. However, I believe (and this is clearly just my opinion) that refusing education about the proper respect and handling of guns is as naive as denying sex education to teenagers and preaching, "Just Say No." Keep On Dancing*
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Heart
On 01/03/2011 15:00:51
Military Coup - not going to happen here in Australia. I'm a civilian with the Department of Defence, and have a husband in the armed forces, that I would probably know about it anyway. Our military are paid quite generously here, as well as great benefits such as cheap rent on housing, free dental and medical and our Politicians are so placid for the most part, that it aint going to happen in my lifetime (as much as Julia Gillard's voice annoys the absolute heck out me!)
Dude, this is a debate. You can't use "It wouldn't happen here!" as a defense. It could happen, it has happened in other countries, and it will happen again. So, let's try again: Assuming a crisis hits Australia and throws the government in crisis - a rash of wildfires, an economic decline. A military coup is attempted, but only the military has weapons. What happens?
As for the second amendment (that's the one, right? I apologise if I have the wrong numeral): didn't that apply to the time when the Wild West was still Wild? I mean, when highway men were still prowling the forests of Europe, it was entirely legal to bear arms around here (unless you were a peasant in which case you were screwed -- gotta love a class society ...), but when those guys disappeared, the weapon-laws were changed, too. Wouldn't it be funny/silly if we were still legally allowed to carry swords and daggers because once upon a time we used to need those (although not anymore)?
The Second Amendment applies at all times. As a part of the Bill of Rights, it was written in 1789 and went into effect in 1791. Its phrasing is as follows: [i] A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. [/i] The argument is that this phrasing states that [i]the right of the people to keep and bear arms[/i] is contingent upon their participation in [i]a well-regulated militia.[/i] Militias do still exist, but clearly are not that necessary anymore. However, the original text of the amendment when it appeared on the Congressional floor was,[i]"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country; but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person."[/i] This leaves no doubt of the intention of the Freamers, and, while I don't tend towards originalism, documents from that time period leave no doubt as to the Framer's reasoning for allowing firearms ownership: it is a check against the power of the military. America has a fundamentally different philosophy than the Commonwealth Realms: our power is invested in the people, not the government. Don't interpret that as I'm saying you're not democracies, because you are. But the power of your government, in its political philosophy, comes from the Queen, and that small distinction makes a big difference. Americans, as rebellious traitors, are in a sense the cynics of the political world. We don't trust our government. We rebelled before and we would again. That's what's up.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By OkinawaDancing
On 01/03/2011 23:21:09
As a perspective. I have lived in the Greater Boston area and am currently in Japan. I am anti-gun. When I lived in the US (and still following news nowadays because that is where my family is) the amount of gun related situations were too much for me to be comfortable with. It was not uncommon to hear of drive by shootings or just like a recent case someone hidden shooting at a school bus. And those are just the reported actual ill intent situations regarding guns. Now I can understand why people are pro gun. Obviously with the amount of guns that are out there you want to protect yourself and I get that. However, with less guns out there there becomes less need to protect yourself from them. In japan there are very strict gun laws. "No-one shall possess a fire-arm or fire-arms or a sword or swords". There are very few exceptions and very lengthy processes to obtain the proper documentation to fit within those exceptions. Even the police do not carry firearms. For this reason Japan has the least number of gun related deaths in the world. The USA has one of the highest numbers of gun related deaths. This does not mean that you will never hear of anything gun related in japan but the number of situations are very low. Long story short I feel safer in Japan than in the US because I know that there are no guns and although I know that other household items (for example) can be used as weapons I have yet to think of one that offers a long range quick road to injury and potential death as a gun. I have walked through the biggest cities in japan even at night alone feeling completely safe (being on my guard of course) but not feeling that I might get shot by someone driving by. Surely this is opinion based but if you look at the numbers it's based on fact as well. As far as the US. I feel that if they want to stay true to the constitution they can do so but also having gun laws that are a bit more strict in place in order not to only protect the rights of those who would like to own a gun but protect those who don't. The fact is (as someone mentioned) tempers can get out of hand and it is all too easy to pull out a gun and react. The number of potential situations like this ought to be reduced such as NOT allowing people to carry guns in bars (I am sorry I can not remember the state that allows this off the top of my head) or other similar areas of concern. This is just one situation for example but I am sure if you were to evaluate the laws throughout all the states you would find others. At the end of the day I personally am anti gun because I have seen what it can do for a country and seen how much better off people seem to be but I respect the opinions of others in the US who feel they are necessary to feel safe because yes in the US with the gun situation the way it is (which I would consider out of control) how else do you defend yourself? If it were up to me, however, some evaluating should be done.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By pondfly
On 01/03/2011 23:31:24
Whatever happened to board games and family vacations as "bonding"? Also, I was certainly told as a child about guns and saw pictures etc- I knew what a gun was and not to touch one without having to have one in front of me. That argument holds no water whatsoever. I never needed to learn to handle one because there were none around me.
Please don't take my comments out of context I mean no harm in what I'm about to say. So you're willing to deny educating your child about firearm safety and how not to touch them because you don't have one? That is a very unsafe and naive answer. What about your child coming across a firearm that was dropped by a criminal fleeing from the police or even worse your child going to a friends house where they own a firearm? Children need to know what they are, that they are dangerous and to get an adult right away without touching it. You can't coddle your child in a protective shield until they become 18 or never move out of the basement because they are too busy playing Warcraft. A child is a child and has normal curiosity, which at times can be dangerous. We teach our children to never touch the stove, oven, electrical devices, not to put metal things in the outlets (can be fun to watch though), sex, etc. but you don't want to spend 5 minutes to just tell a child to not touch a gun and to alert an adult right away? Shame....
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/03/2011 23:35:36
Please see the link I posted. Dear sweet Chris on a cracker!! Gun control laws do not reduce violent crime. We know this already. It's not a matter of opinion. READ MY FRICKIN LINK!
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Megan
On 01/04/2011 00:19:11
Also, I was certainly told as a child about guns and saw pictures etc- I knew what a gun was and not to touch one without having to have one in front of me.
but you don't want to spend 5 minutes to just tell a child to not touch a gun and to alert an adult right away? Shame....
Pondfly, I don't think you read what I said at all. I said that I WAS taught that guns were dangerous and not to touch them. I wasn't taught HOW to touch them because it was one of those things (like needles, or knives...) that I knew NEVER to pick up under any circumstances. I wouldn't show my child how to pick up a dirty needle just in case they decided to disobey me and grab one in the park, and it would be the same for a gun found in a friend's home or whatever (although, with our relatively strict gun laws here, the chances of that are incredibly small.) Teaching them not to touch them is a hell of a lot safer than teaching them how to handle them, in my opinion. The point I'm trying to make is that while in the US, you might very well need the things, but we don't need them or want them for the general public up here. Our crime rates are already lower and our gun violence rates are low, so why on earth would we want to change that? I read Chris's link and I fully understand that correlation is not the same as causation, but it is a fact that my country is a safer place to live than yours. We have less than a third of the firearm-related deaths per capita than you, and that is a fact according to "Firearm-related deaths in the United States and 35 other high- and upper-middle-income countries" in the International Journal of Epidemiology. Peer reviewed and everything. Includes the accidental as well. Here's another chart illustrating that, for better or worse, we've got a lot fewer deaths involving firearms: http://www.allcountries.org/gun_deaths_by_country.html I don't know why this is up for dispute when the statistics are available widely and it's clear that we DO have fewer problems with this. Please don't call my opinions "inane" when there are tons of stats showing precisely what I've said, Renae. Just because in the USA more guns have lowered rates doesn't mean they're not a ton higher than elsewhere with stricter laws.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By PureTap
On 01/04/2011 00:21:22
Chris - No, so there, suck it up Princess... :P :)
Dude, this is a debate. You can't use "It wouldn't happen here!" as a defense. It could happen, it has happened in other countries, and it will happen again. So, let's try again: Assuming a crisis hits Australia and throws the government in crisis - a rash of wildfires, an economic decline. A military coup is attempted, but only the military has weapons. What happens?
Well I can, Heart, since this isn't a debate about what would happen if a military coup happened in Australia, but about whether I'm Pro-Gun or Anti-Gun, which I think I've covered pretty well, don't you? But, because you are so insistent, I'll also point you to my previous post where I said that all of our police do carry firearms (Glocks, I believe), as do our farmers, our pest exterminators, sporting shooters and gun and pistol clubs - just not the great unwashed public unless they really want to and proven that they have a need for one and have jumped through all the necessary hoops. I'm sure if there was a military uprising, there'd be enough police to defend the politicians if necessary. What Crisis would happen are you talking about here that would start this off, pray tell? We already get multiple cyclones over here on a yearly basis, currently half of Queensland is in flood, previously Victoria has been devastated by fire, the majority of the country has just come out of a 10 year drought, and we've managed to avoid the GFC because our [i]politicians[/i] put enough things in to place to stop us feeling the full brunt of it and we came out of it a hell of a lot better than the USA. Our country, our Military and our Politicians pull together in times of crisis, not start in-fighting. I'd ask that you research a bit about Australia and put a believable situation to me where our politicians are likely to fall apart and the Defence Force takes over. You may need to also research our Government System and see that we aren't a single Head of Government system with a President, we have multiple Federal Ministers who make up our Federal System (because Julia Gillard is really only a figure head and representative of the party) so that, if all our multiple policians went to hell in a handbasket, then people would probably accept the Military taking over the Government. I know I'd rather it was the military, than some whacked out nut job with a legally owned AR-15 that he'd purchased from a gas station 24 hours previously. :? See what I mean? Too many variables to play a 'What If' game on the Debates Board about a fictional situation.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By OkinawaDancing
On 01/04/2011 00:22:34
Please see the link I posted. Dear sweet Chris on a cracker!! Gun control laws do not reduce violent crime. We know this already. It's not a matter of opinion. READ MY FRICKIN LINK!
No gun control laws do not reduce violent crime but in countries where there are very strict gun control laws or full out banning of guns all together you are much less likely to be in a situation where you are up against a gun and therefore defenseless. I would much rather take my chances with a person who needs to attach at close range than a shooter. PONDFLY- I just had to add I 100% agree. I may personally prefer a place without guns but if you are in a place where they are accessible as they are in the US I think that it's very important to educate your children. You never know what they may encounter and so you need to ensure they are familiar with what to do if in a situation as such. With that said I also agree that before a certain age children should not be taught how to handle (clean, prepare, shoot) firearms. Of course this is purely opinion.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By rosalinde
On 01/04/2011 03:35:18
Panic: do you even care if people disagree with you? I mean, I was trying to be careful with the way I verbalised my feelings, and that I FEEL safer without people toting guns all around me (even if I might be wrong in feeling so). But apparently my feelings are all wrong ... :C I think it really depends on the sources one quotes, I'm sure I could find links to sites that back my opinion up, but I seriously doubt whether anyone pro-gun really wants to see that ... I'm outta here now, I might get shot ...
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/04/2011 10:01:04
but it is a fact that my country is a safer place to live than yours.
Your country is not safer than Israel or Switzerland where everyone owns guns. Theory disproved.
But apparently my feelings are all wrong ...
Honey, as far as legislation goes, I don't care about your feelings. Show me facts. This is exactly why women make terrible politicians. They can't tell the difference between fact and (completely unfounded) opinion.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/04/2011 10:23:24
" I know I'd rather it was the military, than some whacked out nut job with a legally owned AR-15 that he'd purchased from a gas station 24 hours previously." I have a question for everyone living out of the United States. Where/How do you think we get to legally buy guns? Please do this without research of google, and just tell me your opinions on how Americans get to legally own guns? I am curious as to what you guys are taught in the media about guns.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Megan
On 01/04/2011 11:03:36
But Chris, my country is still sure as heck safer than the US. I've already said that gun ownership obviously isn't the only factor, but I believe it plays a part. Israel and Switzerland are not noticeably similar to the US except in that one aspect. It's obviously more complicated than gun laws, but I highly, highly doubt that Canada would become even safer if gun control laws were relaxed. Our culture is was too similar to yours for that. Renae, that particular link was older but I also mentioned another study that was not, and many more exist. I posted that link because it was the only one that was publicly accessible, but when using my university databases, which are unfortunately limited to students, I came up with tons of info. I'm also not from the UK, but from Canada.
So because someone could use a knife to harm someone I shouldn't teach my child the proper way to use one in the kitchen? What about scissors...should I ban those from the house as well? LOL, I have grown up with guns for 36 years. All of my friends have guns and have kids. Nobody has kids walking over to another house and picking up guns lying around. You are arguing something that you have no experience with and know nothing about. You have not been in the States to witness responsible gun ownership or see it. You say guns are bad and evil...um they aren't. Neither is a sword, knife, or baseball bat, but they can all be used inappropriately.
You know perfectly well I'm not talking about kitchen knives and scissors when I say things like that. I was referring to pondfly's example of finding a gun in the street- which you definitely would not want to pick that up, obviously. A knife, scissors, a baseball bat...all of those things have other functions besides killing things which a gun does not. You don't play softball with a gun or do crafts with a gun. Also, I'm not sure that you read my post earlier, but I mentioned that I live in a house with a gun currently, as my roommate owns several legally. So yes, I do know how responsible gun ownership is carried out. His are locked up unloaded and separately from his ammo which is also locked up. Even so, I still wish they weren't around, and our friend who owns our house almost didn't let us move in because of the stupid things. I'm not a parent but I'm also not an idiot and I'm perfectly aware that you need to teach kids about dangerous things. However, I'm lucky enough to live somewhere where guns aren't something a kid is likely to encounter day-to-day. When my roommate has kids, he'll show them the guns and explain about their danger and that they're locked up and never, ever to touch them, because he'll have to because he has them. I feel like implying that I wouldn't want to teach kids about the danger of guns when they are a part of the kids' world is just insulting my intelligence. All I'm saying is that for kids who don't live around guns, it's not necessary to show them one to explain that they're dangerous.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/04/2011 11:23:59
Megan, you said " Even so, I still wish they weren't around, and our friend who owns our house almost didn't let us move in because of the stupid things." WHY don't you wish to be around a gun that is locked up and the ammo put away? Are you afraid of your housemate getting crazy and shooting you or something? I assume it is because you never grew up with guns in your house. Guns were taboo and you were taught to fear the gun. I assume you also have never held a gun when you were little. Here is my own personally theory about raising kids. I don't want my children to be afraid of the gun. I want them to be cautious of the gun, and I want them to know the damage that could be done with a gun. I want them to learn RESPECT for the gun. I also don't want them to grow up to be gun fearing adults. There may be a time in their adult life where they are put in a situation where they HAVE to handle a gun and know how to shoot properly. I will have my children hold UNLOADED guns so they don't have a unreasonable fear of it. Megan, I believe that you have a unreasonable fear of the gun, because you never handled one as a child. I think that in your country, there has never been a reason for you to handle a gun because of the gun control laws. If my child lives in the USA, he WILL handle unloaded guns as a child. Plus, I believe that it takes away the curiosity of the mysterious object that they can never touch, and only "big boys and girls" can touch. There are so many children toys on the market that have to do with guns. I think this sends mixed messages to younger kids, and you really have to explain the difference between play and real. I think a heavy gun in their hands will verify the real/play thing.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/04/2011 11:26:19
But Chris, my country is still sure as heck safer than the US. I've already said that gun ownership obviously isn't the only factor, but I believe it plays a part.
Based on WHAT? Are y'all seriously in favor of enacting laws based on your hunch? Even when there is evidence to the contrary? And when you all admit that you have no experience with firearms? Seriously?
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Anon1234567890
On 01/04/2011 11:32:33
I'm in Britain and "the media" doesn't "teach" me how Americans buy guns??? As far as I'm aware, and I couldn't tell you where this comes from, this is what might happen depending on location: Scenario A: Person goes into gun shop with ID - is allowed to buy gun. Scenario B: Person goes into shop with ID and gun licence - is allowed to buy gun. Scenario C: Person goes into shop with ID and gun licence - chooses gun, has to wait several days before being allowed to take shiny new gun home. I don't see that it really matters whether people from non-US countries know how Americans buy guns or not, though? I don't even know how one would go about buying a gun in my own country because it has never occurred to me nor interested me. Just wondering, to the "awww poor England/other countries that aren't allowed guns, woe is them" posters - do you really think we'd be better off suddenly being allowed to own guns after previously having a culture of not being allowed to own them? D'ya not think it would cause a lot of problems if suddenly the floodgates were opened? It hasn't been a topic of debate in parliament in our country for quite some time. Nobody visible is campaigning for the law here to be changed. I think it's fine the way it is, but the thread in general is a classic example of people not recognising that we're not all American here. I'm inferring that Panic thinks only people who have held/shot/sniffed a gun are the only ones allowed an opinion on this. I hope that's just me being a silly female who can't tell opinion from fact, because that's a slippery slope to go down. I've held a replica, woo, go me. Still allowed an opinion.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/04/2011 11:35:24
For the record, guns don't just go off by themselves. You have to turn the safety off and put a finger on the trigger. There are cases where a child gets ahold of a gun and shoots themselves. This is how I think the scenario goes. They come across an object that mom and dad told them never to hold. Mom and dad aren't in the house right now, so they better take a look at it before mom and dad come back. ( Think of a girl getting into her moms forbidden makeup). Most likely this child has never been taught what the safety is, what the trigger is, what happens when you pull the trigger. The most gun education they had was " Don't play with the gun". Children are curious things by nature and mom/dads aren't always perfect. There may be a lapse in the parents judgement and they forget to lock the gun up. Even better yet, it may not even be the child's parents. They may go to a sleepover where the friends parents have a gun. Children shouldn't be taught to fear the gun, they should be taught caution and respect for an object that can cause a lot of harm. People who said they would never shoot someone. If your life was in danger, does that mean you value the criminals life more then your own? I mean, you are basically sacrificing your own life for the criminal trying to kill you. Louise, I think it matters because you non americans make it sound like you can buy a gun from a gas station! If you are going to be debating a topic, at least know the topic of debate; guns. I have a feeling some of the people on this thread believe that you can just go pay cash for a gun and go home with it. They probably think people go around carrying guns in their purse and shooting someone whenever they fear someone. Also driveby's rarely happen to "regular" people. At least in my area, they happen to GANGS, who probably own the gun ILLEGALLY in the first place.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Anon1234567890
On 01/04/2011 11:47:43
"You non Americans"? Um, okay. a) no they don't b) d'ya wanna not lump us all in together please and c) don't even include me in that because my previous post was the first response on the whole thread. Even if we did think you could pick up a gun and put it on the conveyor next to your grapes and ketchup, does it matter? Someone's incorrect perception doesn't make it so, does it? One of "you Americans" on DDN once told me that people in Britain have to check under their car every time they go out in case there was an IRA bomb under there - um, no, but his ignorance of how things are didn't make a blind bit of difference to how things actually are. That's why I thought it was a pointless question, in addition to just being weird (media teaching us?) Also, I think guns ARE to be feared. They are specifically designed to kill and injure. Most things that are dangerous, are dangerous as a side effect to their actual purpose. e.g. a knife is intended to cut food BUT can also be used to stab. A brick is designed to form a building but could easily be thrown at someone's head. Gun? One purpose. One big fat scary purpose. If someone is pointing a gun at me then it is the gun I am fearing - yes it needs to be operated by someone but it could do me a hell of a lot more damage than they could on their own. I'm not going to be sitting there respecting it, I'm going to be there s&%$#ng a brick.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/04/2011 11:49:50
http://www.kc3.com/editorial/40reasons.htm Here are my personally favorites. 6. The more helpless you are the safer you are from criminals. 8. A woman raped and strangled is morally superior to a woman with a smoking gun and a dead rapist at her feet. 21. A handgun, with up to 4 controls, is far too complex for the typical adult to learn to use, as opposed to an automobile that only has 20. 24. Guns cause violence, which is why there are so many mass killings at gun shows. 36. Citizens don't need to carry a gun for personal protection but police chiefs, who are desk-bound administrators who work in a building filled with cops, need a gun. And my absolute favorite 35. Private citizens don't need a gun for self-protection because the police are there to protect them even though the Supreme Court says the police are not responsible for their protection.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/04/2011 11:55:02
Louise, maybe I should have lumped you guys as "countries with gun control". Sorry about that. " If someone is pointing a gun at me then it is the gun I am fearing - yes it needs to be operated by someone but it could do me a hell of a lot more damage than they could on their own. I'm not going to be sitting there respecting it, I'm going to be there s&%$#ng a brick." Of course you are scared of the gun, but in reality you would also be scared of the PERSON behind the gun. You would still fear him if he had a knife I bet. Wouldn't that be an instance where you also wished you had a gun so you wouldn't be at the helpless mercy of the man holding a gun to you? I guess I just don't understand why anyone would want to be helpless in defending themselves. "They are specifically designed to kill and injure" Don't forget PROTECT. Guns protect cops on a daily basis. While the cops don't shoot people on a daily basis, criminals knowing that cops have guns are less likely to pull out a gun of their own. I used to live in Japan, the police there are pretty pathetic. They have these sticks they hit people with. Stick or gun stick or gun, guess who's gonna win the fight there.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Anon1234567890
On 01/04/2011 12:02:47
^ Sigh. No, you shouldn't have lumped us at all because we don't all universally agree on guns just because our governments restrict them or because we have the same laws as someone else. Not everyone in America thinks guns should be legal (or as legal as they are) so why do you assume everyone from my country would agree? I'm not actively wishing to be helpless - that's thoroughly ridiculous and you know it. But come ON, I've lived to the age of 25 without getting myself into a situation where I'd require a gun. Big whoop I know, but my mom has lived to the age of 50, Tim's dad has lived to the age of 65, my great-nan lived to the age of 100+, all none of them ever being in a situation where they'd've remotely benefited from having a gun. Apart from policemen and my friend who collects cash from shops, I don't know a single person who has ever been in such a dire situation. I don't even know anyone that's been burgled, touch wood. The probability of me ever needing a gun is miniscule, so why would I bother? Just seems like an unnecessary expense and risk to me. And of course as I've said above, gun ownership has always always always been restricted where I'm from. I would be more worried if we ever got to a situation where that needed to be changed. It ain't broke. We don't need to be looked down upon or pitied because we're not allowed guns. Oh, and if I shot someone who was trying to rape me then I'd go to prison for GBH, manslaughter or murder. If the rapist survived I'd probably be sued. Same as if I shot a burglar. Google Tony Martin (farmer) if you don't believe me. Give over. Guns were designed to protect [b]by injuring/immobilising/killing the other party[/b]. Whoever invented the gun didn't invent it as something you brandish to ward off an aggressor. LOL. My aforementioned friend who works for a cash logistics company isn't even allowed to wear a stab vest for work because their research shows that if you're wearing a stab vest, criminals are more likely to arm themselves with guns instead. In fact that's pretty much the reason most of our police don't routinely carry guns and it's left to specialist armed units - when police have guns, criminals follow suit. I can't be arsed to find a link but that's why the average PC doesn't have one.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Heart
On 01/04/2011 12:05:33
This is exactly why women make terrible politicians. They can't tell the difference between fact and (completely unfounded) opinion.
Disgusting, even if intended jokingly. Completely uncalled for, inappropriate, and off-topic.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/04/2011 12:08:31
Well of course I am not advocating that we carry guns illegally; or own a gun in a country that has gun control. I personally do not carry a gun because I am unable to get a permit in the state of California. I would never advise someone to illegally carry a gun for their own defense. Oh, and this is most likely why the farmer went to jails. It said "On the night of 20 August 1999, two burglars – Brendon Fearon, 29, and Fred Barras, 16 – entered Bleak House.[2] When confronted, they attempted to flee through a window. Shooting in the dark, with an illegally held pump-action Winchester shotgun, Martin shot Fearon in the leg, and Barras in the back. Barras escaped through the window but died at the scene.[1]" He shot at them while they were fleeing! You can't shoot to kill or injure someone, you can only shoot to stop them from harming you. If the criminals are RUNNING AWAY from you, it would be stupid to say you shot for "self defense". I have a feeling that the outcome would have been different if he shot in SELF DEFENSE and he had the legal right to own a gun. "In Fact that's pretty much the reason most of our police don't routinely carry guns and it's left to specialist armed units - when police have guns, criminals follow suit." Do you honestly think that criminals play fair? " Oh man, deputy Joe doesn't have a gun so I guess we can't have one either". Criminals commit CRIME, they try to overpower anything they can to get to their goal. BTW if there is a mass Shooting in your country, how quickly can Special Forces get there to protect you?
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By hummingbird
On 01/04/2011 12:29:28
All of the crime and prosecution data that people are referencing brings up another issue as well. In Europe at the moment, particularly the UK it would seem there is a tendency to not prosecute or not to punish offenders because it interferes with what has become know colloquially as their,'uman rights' Personally I don't have a problem with gun ownership as long as people have passed some kind of idiot test. We make people pass a test to drive a car, which is a lethal weapon in the wrong hands, but at least it wasn't designed and be a weapon in the first place, it's only human stupidity and freak accidents that make it one. Guns on the other hand where designed right from the get go as a weapon with one end result, to kill and maim. If people can't pass a test to establish that they are in the right mind and are safe to use a gun then they shouldn't own one.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Megan
On 01/04/2011 12:33:05
Jazzy, I'd prefer if he didn't have them in the house because they serve no purpose within the house. The way they're locked up means that they'd be of no purpose in case he needed to defend himself from someone trying to kill him (although I personally do not live in fear of being invaded and feel very safe in my home), and so they are a pointless addition to our household. I wish he could keep them somewhere else just because we don't need them and they can be dangerous. That's all. It's not because I'm not educated on them or have an unreasonable fear of them. [b]I just don't see the point of owning them.[/b] If you're going to have guns and children in the same home, in your example, you should NEVER FORGET to lock them up. That's not an option. There is no room for carelessness. Don't put words in my mouth, please.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Munkenstein
On 01/04/2011 12:36:33
"He shot at them while they were fleeing! You can't shoot to kill or injure someone, you can only shoot to stop them from harming you. If the criminals are RUNNING AWAY from you, it would be stupid to say you shot for "self defense". I have a feeling that the outcome would have been different if he shot in SELF DEFENSE and he had the legal right to own a gun." Screw that noise. Granted, I don't approve of illegally owning a gun, but the other stuff? Psh. Property is sacred in the USA. One of the few good things about this state is that we are allowed to defend ourselves and our property from scum burglars. Maybe I'm a crazy, violent person, but I'm all for the "stand your ground" laws, or whatever they're called these days. If you break into my house/try to carjack me/etc, I will do whatever I can to harm you, simple as that. If somebody breaks into your house and get scared when they realize you're home/awake/armed/whatever, I fully support shooting the moron whether they come at you or try to run away. I've just got very strict opinions and beliefs on crime, heh. It's so easy to NOT be a criminal so I don't have much sympathy or anything...it would take extreme circumstances to change my mind, especially when it comes to people who steal. I do live in a pretty scummy city whose first homicide of the new year happened within an hour or so of midnight on the first...this place could use some citizens taking out some worthless thugs. ;) On another note, I get to learn how to shoot soon and I'm super excited! :) EDIT: I should specify said laws...we're supposed to be able to defend ourselves and our property and may use deadly force if necessary without fear of repercussions. It also means that you can use the deadly force without attempting to retreat first. It doesn't always work perfectly but I can't tell you how many times I've wanted to punch the monitor reading about an injured burglar suing the owner of a house they broke into or whatever.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/04/2011 12:39:24
Megan, I understand that you see no use of them, and that is totally fine. That is a personal opinion that you chose to believe in. My original question is WHY do you think they can be dangerous? I am trying to get to the root of your opinion, because I hear so many people say that guns are dangerous. Unless your housemate goes into his safe, puts together the ammo, put it in the gun, takes the safety off, aims and shoots...they are of no danger to you. I am just curious where this fear of a gun being dangerous is coming from, thats all. Munkstein, oh how I wish I lived in your state. If someone came into my home and stole a TV, I legally wouldn't be allowed to shoot them. We can't take another life unless it was to stop them. . That being said, while I can't kill someone legally, I WOULD be aiming at their chest, because that is the largest part of their body. If their heart gets in the way of the bullet, that ain't my problem ;)
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By kandykane
On 01/04/2011 12:47:46
I'm joining in late. Pro gun, but I have some definite concerns about safety and responsibility. Restrictions are fine with me but not an outright ban. kk~
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Megan
On 01/04/2011 12:48:23
Why can they be dangerous? Because their purpose is to kill people, obviously. Say some idiot friend of his gets drunk at a party and steals his keys, or he's cleaning them after going out with his buddies and someone breaks in and the gun immediately escalates the situation, or hell, the roomie gets depressed and suicidal and uses a gun because it's so easy...all of these are unlikely scenarios but they are things that wouldn't even be possible if they weren't in the house. They have no positive purpose in our home (even farfetched) and a host of negatives, although they ARE farfetched. Why would I want the things around? I can't think of a single reason other than a zombie apocalypse.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Megan
On 01/04/2011 12:52:34
Renae, YOU have all been saying that kids need to know how to handle guns in case they find them, not me. Also, [b]I'm not from the UK[/b]. The stats from MY country are pretty clear. Like I said, I did some research on the academic databases of my university and all point to between a third and a half of gun violence (and violent crime generally) per capita in Canada vs the US. Like it or not, I do live in a safer society than you do.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/04/2011 13:02:39
Megan, wouldn't you feel really stupid if your kid found a gun and pulled the trigger since he wasn't properly educated on how to use a gun? Canada shares a border with the United States. Although I don't have official stats or anything, I am pretty sure that the black market for guns in Canada are bigger then you might assume. Just because YOU never personally found a gun, doesn't mean that your child may not in the future. What's the problem with taking a precaution and teaching your child about gun safety? Teaching a child about gun safety doesn't kill them, NOT teaching them about gun safety might be the one mistake that might kill them. I'm not saying to take your child out target shooting to make him a good shot. All I am saying is that you should give your child the knowledge of avoiding accidental shootings. Only YOU can decide that for your own child and it isn't my business to force you to do so. For MY children, there are already enough dangers out in the world, and if a accidental shooting can be prevented, I will do everything in my power to teach them about proper gun handling.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Anon1234567890
On 01/04/2011 13:03:54
[q]"On the night of 20 August 1999, two burglars – Brendon Fearon, 29, and Fred Barras, 16 – entered Bleak House.[2] When confronted, they attempted to flee through a window. [b]Shooting in the dark[/b], with an illegally held pump-action Winchester shotgun, Martin shot Fearon in the leg, and Barras in the back. Barras escaped through the window but died at the scene.[1]" He shot at them while they were fleeing! You can't shoot to kill or injure someone, you can only shoot to stop them from harming you. If the criminals are RUNNING AWAY from you, it would be stupid to say you shot for "self defense". I have a feeling that the outcome would have been different if he shot in SELF DEFENSE and he had the legal right to own a gun. [/q] Pfft, it won't allow me to make it bold. Anyway the bit I wanted to make bold was "SHOOTING IN THE DARK". His house was a tumbledown shack in the middle of nowhere with little electricity. Eccentric guy. He didn't have a freaking clue whether they had their backs turned on him or not but it shouldn't bloody matter either way. However, your "feeling" is incorrect. He'd still have been put away. /hijack
BTW if there is a mass Shooting in your country, how quickly can Special Forces get there to protect you?
I absolutely haven't got a clue, because mass shootings don't happen very often over here so I have no need to know. Last year was very much an anomaly where we had two (two!). You're just starting to sound petty now with all this one-upmanship, my-country's=-better-than-yours bs.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/04/2011 13:06:38
I say do NOT lock up your guns! What good is a gun if it's locked up and unloaded? None. My guns are loaded and distributed throughout my house. When I was 5, I knew where the guns were and how to use them. In fact, I had my own guns. Everyone in my community owned guns, and the crime in my are was nonexistent. Telling a kid not to touch a gun is stupid. Of course, that just makes them want to touch a gun. You have to teach them gun safety. Yes Louise, I would think that if you're going to enact a law, you would want to understand both sides of the situation and not act on "women's intuition" or whatever hocum y'all are using to draw your conclusions. Statistics show that countries with gun control laws are NOT safer than countries without. Links have been posted. Yet people keep saying the opposite because they FEEL that it must be true. Screw your feelings. I know women aren't good with numbers, but hard data is available, and I find it absolutely mystifying that you all refuse to even consider it. Your mind is made up, and you don't care what the science says. This is exactly why women make terrible scientists. Furthermore, your concept of buying a gun from a gun shop is SO not how it works - especially for criminals. That's just so completely out of touch with the real world. Most people I know (myself included) do not buy guns from gun shops, do not acquire licenses, and do not register their guns. Making guns illegal wouldn't fix the gun problem - but it would make me (a generally law-abiding citizen) into a criminal.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/04/2011 13:09:12
Louise, so you are defending the guys who BROKE THE LAW and invaded the poor man's house? Louise, I would be put away too if I shot at someone who was running away from me. It is like that in the United States too. So basically in your country, even if someone shoots in self defense, they would be put away? Man, what a horrible place to live for woman who shot in self defense to protect her children. I also don't have any of the guns locked up personally. We need quick access to them, incase anyone ever tries to hurt us.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Anon1234567890
On 01/04/2011 13:12:24
^ Um, no. And although we obviously posted at the same time I'm not responding to the one-upmanship.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Megan
On 01/04/2011 13:14:23
Are you even reading what I'm writing? [b]I am not saying that I would not teach a child about gun safety. I'm saying that in my opinion, gun safety for children should be "don't even think about touching that," the same way it would be for, say, a dirty needle on the side of the road, or Daddy's razor, or the stove, or a million other things.[/b] A kid doesn't need to know how to fire it to know that it can fire and it is not a good thing to play with. I am not advocating ignorance here, I'm just saying that [b]a child doesn't have to have a gun in front of him or her to learn that he or she should not handle it.[/b] We tell children not to play with knives or broken bottles or used condoms or electrical outlets or any number of things they might come across, why are guns different? We up here don't keep guns all around the house like in Chris's area, so our children don't NEED to know how to pick one up. If you're not going to read what I've been writing, I really don't know why I'm bothering here. I am all for education, but I don't see why education has to involve "and this is how you pull the trigger" if you live somewhere where guns aren't found in the home.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/04/2011 13:17:49
^That's just silly. Tell a kid not to touch something, and you KNOW what happens. You're basically endorsing absinance-only education for firearms. Doesn't work with sex - doesn't work with drugs. Why would it work with guns?"
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/04/2011 13:19:51
Louise, I am not sure if I am getting you. Can you please answer 2 questions for me, so I get where you are coming from. 1. Should someone go to jail for shooting in self defense to protect themselves. 2. Would you shoot someone if that was the only way to protect your life. Megan, do you think you can teach a child how to drive in theory? You have to show them where the pedals are etc. In order to proper teach gun safety, you have to have a gun in front of you. That's what I am saying. Just because you say " Don't touch a gun" doesn't mean they won't come across one and try to pull the trigger out of curiosity. If you always taught the child that the gun in dangerous and it DOESN'T explode on them, they might explore further. Under the assumption that " Mommy taught me a gun was dangerous, but it didn't hurt me. Let me keep playing with it and see what she meant by dangerous".
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Megan
On 01/04/2011 13:20:31
...because it works for stuff like hot ovens and needles and broken bottles? Your examples don't work. Sex is natural and normal. Driving is something that pretty much everyone has to do. [b]Shooting a gun is neither of those things.[/b] I learned without a problem that a gun can kill you without having one in front of me. So did everyone else I know.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Anon1234567890
On 01/04/2011 13:23:15
Panic, where did I personally say anything about how safe or unsafe I felt? All I've said is that there is currently absolutely no debate whatsoever about our gun laws, that it would never occur to me to own a gun, and that I'm quite happy with not being able to own one personally. I feel safe walking around town on my own and that is solely down to the fact that nothing has ever happened to me to make me feel unsafe. A couple of times on this thread, it's been suggested that unless you've lived somewhere that allows guns, you can't say which state of affairs is preferable. Slightly hypocritical. Besides which, we all live in different countries. If we all had the same laws you might just as well all become part of England as there'd be no need to be separate. What works with you wouldn't work for everyone else. I'm likening this to alcohol in my head. Europe has a massive culture of sophisticated drinking and kids start sipping wine around the dining table at a very young age. In Britain we wait until we're 18 (legally, usually 14/15 in actuality) and then we drink to get drunk. People have suggested that we could curb our drink problems by adopting a Mediterranean attitude and introducing children to alcohol earlier...only that wouldn't work over here, and you'd just get people drinking to get drunk at a much younger age. It's completely at odds with our culture. If guns were suddenly more freely available over here, I don't think it'd be lovely and straightforward. The main point is that nobody over here is arsed about owning a gun whereas many Americans would fight tooth and nail for their right to own one. Total cultural gulf. So there's no need to think we're backward or silly or pansies for not owning guns. It's just not something we give a toss about. Also when suggesting how an American might buy a gun, I did say that I was going on nothing and that we have absolutely no reason to know. I still don't know why it matters that I don't know how to buy a gun in America. Edit
1. Should someone go to jail for shooting in self defense to protect themselves.
Irrelevant what I think - the law in my country would probably send them to jail. Why are you asking me this?
2. Would you shoot someone if that was the only way to protect your life.
Irrelevant - I don't own a gun and would not have the opportunity. If you're asking would I fight for my life, yes. But I physically couldn't shoot someone because I don't have the equipment.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/04/2011 13:24:21
OMG, it absolutely does NOT work with hot ovens and broken bottles!! And it also doesn't work with drugs and alcohol - which is NOT something everyone has to do.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/04/2011 13:26:12
Megan, it doesn't work for hot stoves and glass bottles! How many times have you heard of children getting burned? How many times have you heard of children going into a cookie jar even if mommy said not too? Guns are the equivalent of going into a cookie jar for kids. ( Especially with so many toy guns on the market) Kids aren't born with a fear/respect/caution for guns. You have to show them the gun and explain to them how it kills people. I recommend taking them to the shooting range and showing them how it works. The loud noise and seeing the bullets on the target SHOWS them how dangerous it can be. I think I saw my first gun shot at the age of 6ish, and that was enough to keep me away from my dads guns and never shoot them.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Megan
On 01/04/2011 13:27:23
And what Louise said. Seriously. I'm not trying to tell you guys that you shouldn't own your guns. I'm saying that I'd never want to and I never want to live somewhere where people do. I mentioned some pages back that I think it's way too late for the States. Your firearm problems are so culturally ingrained that to take those rights away would probably end in chaos. But I am extremely happy and approving of the way we deal with the things up here. I feel safe and so will any children I might have. Yay. Jazz, how did every adult I know learn, then? I don't know a single person who was exposed to guns as a kid, and we're all just fine. We all knew perfectly well without being shown, thanks. Drugs and alcohol aren't even slightly comparable to guns. They don't exist to kill things, for one thing. However, if you want to compare them, then what you're saying is apparently that you should take your kid down to the local dealer, pick up some coke, and show him how to snort it so he knows how to do it safely? I'm just following your example here, even though I think it's a little absurd.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By d4j
On 01/04/2011 13:30:10
I can totally testify that it doesn't work with needles found in a public park. Watched kids with my own eyes pick one up before I figured out what it was and could warn them. Kids old enough to know better. And there is a thread right now about kids' injuries and someone (I think T?) posted about their kid grabbing the hot coil in the oven, also old enough to have gotten many warnings. Yup, kids don't listen and aren't mature. I would never, ever bet my kid's life on 'don't touch a gun' and assume my warning would hold. Not ever. ESPECIALLY teens in the face of peer pressure.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By d4j
On 01/04/2011 13:33:17
But since we know that it doesn't work 100% of the time and can't predict which camp our own kid falls into, and it's a life or death situation, one cannot depend on one's parental lessons to protect the kid, no matter how wisely and how often we give the lesson.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/04/2011 13:33:34
Megan, I understand what you are trying to say. All I am saying is that you don't know what the future brings in ten or twenty years for your children. As you share the border with the United States, our cultural gun influences might cause a huge inflation of black market guns in your country. I think Louise has less to worry about, because she doesn't share a border with us. You can't say with a guarantee that your children won't be exposed to guns. Are you going to ask each and every single care giver of your children if they own a gun in the house? Are you going to follow them around 24/7 to make sure that they never ever run across a gun? I am not saying that you SHOULD own a gun if you feel uncomfortable with it. I am just asking you to maybe have more of an open mind to showing a child how much harm a gun can do in the wrong hands.It may save the life of your future children.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Megan
On 01/04/2011 13:36:47
Jazz, even if we wanted to, most parents up here wouldn't even have the option to show a kid because they just aren't around for that. It would be extremely difficult to even find a gun to show a kid unless you took them to a range, and the only one I know of requires that you're 18. Guns just aren't accessible, thank goodness.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/04/2011 13:38:55
It's just not something we give a toss about.
You're arguing pretty vigorously for something you don't give a toss about. And are you SERIOUSLY asking me why I think you should inform yourself about a topic before you draw conclusions? You don't need to live in the US, but if you're going to comment about a topic, you maybe want to have some (ANY) knowledge about it. Isn't that perfectly obvious? Even to a woman?
Seriously. I'm not trying to tell you guys that you shouldn't own your guns. I'm saying that I'd never want to and I never want to live somewhere where people do.
You're arguing pretty vigorously for something you don't give a toss about. And are you SERIOUSLY asking me why I think you should inform yourself about a topic before you draw conclusions? You don't need to live in the US, but if you're going to comment about a topic, you maybe want to have some (ANY) knowledge about it. Isn't that perfectly obvious? Even to a woman?
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Megan
On 01/04/2011 13:41:10
I'm sorry, Chris, I didn't realize that this topic was about owning a gun in the UNITED STATES ONLY. If that were the case, I wouldn't have bothered. I thought it was open to everyone and it was possible to debate about the laws within our own countries. My mistake, I guess. Seriously.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/04/2011 13:45:27
Louise I asked you those 2 questions because as a gun owner, those are very important questions that every gun owner should ask and answer. I assume that you are not in the right mind to even own a gun, so there is no argument about what you feel about guns. You probably won't even be able to get a permit here based on your comments about your personal opinions of guns. By not answering the questions, I see where your mind frame is, that is all. If you don't give a toss about it, why are you even participating in this debate? You aren't of the right mindset to even own a gun, you don't give a toss, and you wouldn't be able to defend yourself. Why are you still on this debate? Megan, this topic IS open to all the other countries too. It just seems to be a pretty clear divid between the countries. Plus, not many Canadians to debate with, so I guess you are stuck with us arrogant Americans ;)
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/04/2011 13:46:18
OK. Apology accepted. But from now on, let's just assume that every thread is about the US unless specifically stated otherwise.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/04/2011 13:53:01
AlwaysonStage, this is just my PERSONAL parenting style when it comes to guns. 0-5. No information about guns. My kids will most likely be in my care at this time, and would have very minimal contact with guns. If I have them in the home, I would tell them " You can not touch this" and always keep it out of reach. 6-10. I would let them hold an unloaded handgun and tell them stories about kids shooting themselves or their friends. I would explain to them that it is a dangerous object if it is treated without care and respect. 10+ I would take them to shooting ranges and show them how much harm a gun can do. Around 10 is when they hit their preteens and I have less of a watch over them. Peer pressure probably kicks up around this time and I want them to be able to have knowledge about guns. When I was around 12, I went to a friends house where they were touching their parents guns. I had to take it away from them, put the safety back on, and tell their parents. I think that my education helped me save my friends from a unfortunate situation. If I had a FEAR of the gun, I most likely wouldn't have been able to touch the gun and put it away safely. Thank heavens they didn't shoot me by accident, but that could have been a real situation that YOUR children may be faced with.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Anon1234567890
On 01/04/2011 13:55:53
The title of the thread is "Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun". If you didn't want to hear from people who were against owning guns why ask? You obviously don't care about people's reasoning for not wanting to own one, and you don't want to acknowledge that there would ever be a middle ground, so why did you start the debate? And PLEASE, enough armchair psychoanalysing! This thread is doing my fruit in because we're all posting at the same time so I intended to leave it but since you arrogantly think you've got the measure of me because I didn't answer two questions that are WHOLLY IRRELEVANT to me as a NON-gun owner... 1 - no, I do NOT think that a homeowner should be prosecuted for shooting an intruder. I don't know where you've got the idea that I do. You break into someone's house and you forfeit your human rights. 2 - IF I had a gun and my life was in danger, you can bet your ass I'd use it. I said I'd fight for my life, didn't I? I have fingernails and heels and teeth in my arsenal which are going to have to suffice, but if I had a knife or a gun or indeed the ubiquitous brick about my person, it would get used. Not going to happen though. How do you know what your "personal parenting" style is? You're not a parent, right? Interestingly you say that between ages 0-5 is when you tell them "do not touch this" when isn't that exactly the age when kids don't understand why they can't do whatever they're told not to, and touch hot ovens and broken glass? Not that I want to drag other people's kids into this debate, but someone else already did - the member's child who burned his hand. Isn't he four? As in aged 0-5? And had undoubtedly been told not to touch? Might want to save the parenting lectures until you have succeeded in parenting someone. Panic, you're wilfully misunderstanding everything I say (and everything Megan says) so I can't be bothered trying to make you understand.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Heart
On 01/04/2011 13:56:20
My parents are Quakers and pacifists and, while not completely against the legality of firearms ownership, certainly have no desire to keep any in their house. I never held a gun until just a few weeks ago. Part of the reason why I wanted to learn was because I want - no, [i]need[/i] - to learn about the safety features of a gun. As a human being, I consider it in my best interest to learn and prepare myself as best as possible for every scenario. It does me no good whatsoever to call myself a responsible person if I can't so much as flip the safety switch on a gun or unload the clip. Is it at all probable or likely that I will ever need to know that? It kind of depends on what I wind up doing with my life, but no, not really. But it makes ME feel better that if a gun is thrust into my hands, I can not only aim and fire it, but I can ALSO unload it so it can't hurt anyone else. It's not rocket science, but it's not immediately apparent, and if there were an emergency one wouldn't have time to think it through. It has been shown repeatedly and unquestionably that the best defense is a good offense - knowledge is power. "Just don't do it" works for a five-year-old, yes. But it won't do a lick of good for a nine-year-old, and certainly not for an 11- or 12-year-old. Would it work? Yes, but it's NOT the most effective method. The best way to handle these things is through solid understanding, demonstration, and explanation - this is a gun, this is what it does, this is how it can hurt you. If you find one, flip this switch, make sure it's unloaded, don't point it at anyone. And so on. That said, I was a good, obedient kid. My parents thoroughly explained to me why you don't do those things, and as a kid I did keep my nose clean because I could reason logically and say "that could blow my brains out, I'm not going to touch that." As an adult, though, I want to fill out the gaps in my knowledge. I consider gun safety classes something basic I want in my repertoire.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/04/2011 13:56:50
It's when the child gets older and is in more environments uncontrolled by the parent that this begins to become less and less true. Let's say at 9 years old, a child is invited to a friends' party and a part of their day is unsupervised (such as taking place in a nearby room but not monitored second-by-second by the parents). The more circumstances like THESE are present, the more likely a child is to encounter a gun. However, the likilihood can still vary greatly. Parents calling beforehand asking the friend's parents if they keep guns in the house and if they would be safely stowed or out-of-reach for the party.
This is just SO not grounded in reality. Hopefully, you're teaching your 9-year-olds not to (just for example) snoop through someone's bedroom drawers (which is where they're likely to find a gun). No one keeps a loaded gun on the coffee table when they have 9-year-olds in the house. I'm curious how a 9-year-old would "find" a gun in a house they're visiting. This is another fantasy scenario. That is absolutely NOT how 9-year-olds get their hands on guns. Doesn't happen. edit: I should have said Doesn't happen - except in a household where the parents AND the children are completely uneducated about firearm safety. I'm sure someone can point to an isolated incident where this has happened. But it's a very unusual (and obviously stupid) situation.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Megan
On 01/04/2011 14:00:55
How does an [i]American[/i] 9-year-old get their hands on a gun, then? I'm just curious because I really can't think of a possible scenario in which a child of mine or my friends' could come across one. But that's America's Hat talking again, so I'd like to know.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/04/2011 14:01:35
Megan, I think that most 9 year olds would find a gun in the friends house, through an uneducated child of that household. Which goes back to my point, educate your children not to fool around with guns! Oh and teach them where the trigger is and NOT to push it. Triggers are pretty interesting to play with if you dont know what they are. If you live in a bad part of town, and shall I venture to say the Ghetto, most youngsters in gangs have Saturday Night Specials.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By d4j
On 01/04/2011 14:05:01
I could think of lots of ways a kid could 'find' a gun, mostly having to do with snooping like looking for the suspected hiding place of Christmas presents and lo and behold what's this? That kind of thing. Where I live I had every reason to assume that there would be guns in the homes of my son's friends. Guns that were not only not locked away but also not hidden. I basically had to put the fear of God into my kid to attempt to protect him from possibly idiot friends.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/04/2011 14:08:37
D4J, I remember snooping for a Christmas present and finding my dads gun! I didn't touch it though, because I knew what it was and my curiosity was pretty much dead at that point. Enough stories about children shooting their brains out, kept me from picking it up and playing with it. Oh btw, this is a hijack, but I'm gonna get a pink Gloch for my Bday ;) Alwaysonstage, I am very much for households becoming educated on guns. I do agree with you, that some families have NO business of having a gun in their home. Maybe if we spent our tax dollars on gun education instead of gun control, maybe we will have less accidents ;)
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/04/2011 14:18:37
How does an American 9-year-old get their hands on a gun, then?
I'm glad you asked. Typically, this happens in a household where both the parents and the kids are uneducated re firearm safety. The kid snoops through the parents' stuff and brings the gun out of the house. That's actually a fairly common occurrence, but it does not happen in households where everyone is aware of gun safety.
It may be unlikely but not completely out of the question, in my eyes. The scenario I was thinking of was something like 1) The parents forgot to take it out of their bedside drawer and place it someplace higher such as a top-shelf of a closet or other out-of-9-year-old-reach place of their choosing and 2) The children, who want to play with a new toy for the birthday girl, go hunting for a screwdriver so they can put in the batteries. They search in 'daddy's drawer' and find a gun.
This is just silly. If the parents in question are THAT stupid, you shouldn't let your kids around them in any case. DUH. #2 is completely absurd too. If the parents in question leave the 9-year-olds unsupervised during a party, I would not let me 9-year-old go to the party. These are basic parenting concepts that have nothing to do with guns. If you allow your 9-year-old to run amok, you are a bad parent. Guns or no.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By SaraTheGrouch
On 01/04/2011 14:19:06
It's a GlocK. Just saying.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/04/2011 14:53:01
It's not that I don't care. It's that your scenarios are disconnected from reality. When you have kids, you're not going to call their friends' parents to ask about firearms. That's preposterous. Why would you pick firearms from the long list of dangerous materials your kids might be exposed to? You'd have to also ask about gasoline, matches, insecticides, alcoholic drinks, car keys, razor blades, etc etc etc. If parents let their 9-year-olds handle ANY of these things, they're bad parents. And if you let your kids hang out with them, YOU'RE a bad parent. It has nothing to do with guns. You're just fabricating these scenarios whole cloth. And since you don't have a clue what you're talking about, they do not reflect any actual situation that your child would ever be exposed to.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By SaraTheGrouch
On 01/04/2011 15:00:45
I know 9 year olds who hunt and have better knowledge of guns and gun safety than the majority of the adults on this thread. Be a parent and parent your kids. If you don't screw up, everything will be fine.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/04/2011 15:21:04
You're asking me to do your research for you? I don't have a scenario. But I'm saying all the fabricated scenarios in this thread put forward by people who have never handled a gun are not realistic in any way. Instead of just making up an imaginary way guns might harm 9-year-olds, maybe you can base your scenario on a specific study or even a news story - basically anything that exists in the real world and not just in your imagination. I guess my scenario is that I grew up in a town where everyone owned guns. Everyone learned how to shoot when they were very young. There was no gun violence. None. A few years later, we got a huge influx people who did not grow up in a gun culture, and the gun violence exploded. Nearly all the violence in that community is still committed by people who did not grow up around guns. Every time a kid brings a gun to school, you can be sure they grew up in a house where the parent tried to keep the guns away from the kids and just told them not to touch it. Kids who are educated about gun safety do not bring guns to school and they do not shoot people. Uneducated kids do those things.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Megan
On 01/04/2011 15:35:07
Kids who don't have access to guns don't bring them to school either.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By SaraTheGrouch
On 01/04/2011 15:37:54
^ Would you rather them bring a homemade bomb? A knife? Drugs? Come on... Guns aren't the only things that can do major damage.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By kandykane
On 01/04/2011 15:40:37
I've related this story on DDN before. As a seven year old I got my hands on a handgun and fired it injuring two other kids, a nine year old and the sixteen year old babysitter. It was a very traumatic experience. What was I doing? Showing off. Because my mom had a gun and I knew where it was. I knew what a gun was in theory, but no adult ever fully explained to me just how much harm could come from handling a gun. That's the short version. But it come down to the same thing. The adults in my life failed me. They were the owners of the gun and were responsible for keeping it out of my reach and keeping me and the other kids safe. It's no different from a parent leaving the alcohol cabinet unlocked. It boils down to parent failure. Even with this experience in my life, I'm still pro gun ownership. But I DO fully support safety and restrictions, as in safety classes required, no gun ownership to felons, etc. kk~
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/04/2011 15:43:40
^you could say the same thing about drugs, alcohol and any number of other forms of contraband that get brought into schools. You know banning those other things has not worked, so I'm really perplexed why you think gun control laws would be any more effective.
I'm not asking you to do research, I'm asking you to stop freaking out about a hypothetical you don't like and consider the rest of my point. I came into this post saying "I don't know much, and don't really have a strongly formed opinion" and have been reading. The post you're trying to shred to pieces was not about my opinion or presentation of facts, but suggesting that for those of you that DO have a strongly formed opinion that you may not be taking into account that you have different 'children' in mind when you think of 'children'. The scenario isn't really what mattered at all. It's amazing how you've avoided the point of the post and have zoned in on one part and just can't let go.
Is there a question or a point in there? Can't find one.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Heart
On 01/04/2011 15:50:14
Interesting: [q]The 3,385 firearms-related deaths [in 1999] for age group 0-19 years breaks down to: * 214 unintentional * 1,078 suicides * 1,990 homicides * 83 for which the intent could not be determined * 20 due to legal intervention Of the total firearms-related deaths: * 73 were of children under five years old * 416 were children 5-14 years old * 2,896 were 15-19 years old[/q] [url=http://www.med.umich.edu/yourchild/topics/guns.htm]National Safety Council, 2002[/url] So, 6.35% of all youth deaths by firearms were accidental discharges. In other words, [i]not very many at all.[/i] 31.85% are suicides, and an overwhelming [i][b]85.55%[/i][/b] are 15-19, of an age that is more likely to slap you upside the head if you call them "children." In fact, if you take 14 as a more reasonable cut-off, we are looking at [b]only 489 deaths from firearms[/b] - in a country as large as America, a mind-blowingly tiny sum. [i]And not all those are from accidental discharges[/i]. Were I any better at statistics, I would take this further and explain that you have a better chance at something else bizarre happening, but I fail horribly at calculating odds. Use your imagination.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By amichelle523
On 01/04/2011 16:57:55
I just don't see the point of owning them.
I live out in the middle of nowhere (in the midwestern U.S.). It would take the ONE police officer in my town over 20 minutes to get to my house, IF i was able to get to the phone quick enough. You better bet that if someone breaks in and threatens my family or myself I'm not waiting 20+ minutes to see what happens. -Ashlee
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Caffeine
On 01/04/2011 17:09:54
I am not in this to debate, but while reading the other posts in this thread, one thing stood out to me: Jazzy's comment about a kid finding a gun and playing with the trigger because they don't know what it is and the harm it can do. Firstly, if a child has a toy gun (and I think we all did, even if it was just a water pistol!), then they know what the trigger is. That excuse doesn't hold water. Secondly I come from a country with tight gun restrictions (so I'm happily cheering Louse and Megan on from the sidelines), I've never handled a gun, never seen a gun removed from it's holster, but we get a shedload of media - both fictional and news/documentary -from the US, so we are shown what guns and other weapons can do, and it's rarely in a positive light. Even as a small child, I understood that Elmer Fudd was trying to kill Bugs Bunny with a shotgun. Didn't need to have one thrust into my hands to understand that Guns Kill Things. And thirdly: the likelihood of a gun lying around in the street for a child to find - IN MY COUNTRY - is slim to none. Guns just aren't a way of life for the majority of people in my country. There's more chance of a person robbing McDonalds with a tire iron, than there is someone going postal with a gun.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Megan
On 01/04/2011 17:12:59
I didn't particularly want to use Wikipedia, but alas: "Historically, the violent crime rate in Canada is lower than that of the U.S. and this continues to be the case. For example, in 2000 the United States' rate for robberies was 65 percent higher, its rate for aggravated assault was more than double and its murder rate was triple that of Canada. However, the rate of some property crime types is lower in the U.S. than in Canada. For example, in 2006, the rates of vehicle theft were 22% higher in Canada than in the US.[7] Since violent crimes are a smaller fraction of all crimes, the difference between the two countries is less than the homicide rate might make it seem, and the overall rates are generally close (see Crime in the United States).[citation needed] Furthermore, in recent years, the gap in violent crime rates between the United States and Canada has narrowed due to a precipitous drop in the violent crime rate in the U.S. For example, while the aggravated assault rate declined for most of 1990s in the U.S. and was 324 per 100,000 in 2000, the aggravated assault rate in Canada remained relatively steady throughout and was 143 per 100,000 in 2000. In other areas, the U.S. had a faster decline. For instance, whereas the murder rate in Canada declined by 36% between 1991 and 2004, the U.S. murder rate declined by 44%. [8] Surprisingly, both Saskatoon and Regina consistently have Violent Crime rates that would place them among the 10 most violent cities in the US, and often individually exceed larger US centres in terms of Total numbers for Aggravated Assaults and Robbery.[citation needed] The homicide rate in Canada peaked in 1975 at 3.03 per 100,000 and has dropped since then; it reached lower peaks in 1985 (2.72) and 1991 (2.69). It reached a post 1970 low of 1.73 in 2003. The average murder rate between 1970 and 1976 was 2.52, between 1977 and 1983 it was 2.67, between 1984 and 1990 it was 2.41, between 1991 and 1997 it was 2.23 and between 1998 to 2004 it was 1.82.[9] The attempted homicide rate has fallen at a faster rate than the homicide rate.[10] By comparison, the homicide rate in the U.S. reached 10.1 per 100,000 in 1974, peaked in 1980 at 10.7 and reached a lower peak in 1991 (10.5). The average murder rate between 1970 and 1976 was 9.4, between 1977 and 1983 it was 9.6, between 1984 and 1990 it was 9, between 1991 and 1997 it was 9.2 and between 1998 and 2004 it was 6.3. In 2004 the murder rate in the U.S. dipped below 6 per 100,000, for the first time since 1966, and as of 2009 stood at 5.0 per 100,000 [8] Approximately 70 percent of the total murders in the U.S. are committed with firearms, versus about 30 percent in Canada.[11]" This comes directly from Statistics Canada, our official government agency for statistics: "Highlights • A comparison of police-reported crime rates between Canada and the United States for 2000 shows that the U.S. has much higher rates of violent crime, while Canada generally has higher rates of property crime. Despite differences in rates, trends in crime between the two countries have been quite similar over the past twenty years. • In Canada, there were 542 homicides in 2000 resulting in a national rate of 1.8 homicides per 100,000 population. By comparison, there were 15,517 homicides in the U.S., resulting in a rate (5.5) three times higher than Canada’s. • Both countries have seen a decline in the number of homicides during the past decade, particularly in the U.S. Twenty years ago, the American homicide rate was about four times that of Canada. • Similarly, the aggravated assault rate in the U.S. was more than double the Canadian rate in 2000. The U.S. also showed a higher rate of robbery (65% higher) than Canada. About 41% of robberies in the U.S. involved a firearm, compared to 16% in Canada. • Canada reported higher rates for three of the four comparable property offences. There were about 30% more break-ins and motor vehicle thefts per capita in Canada than the U.S. in 2000. While Canada has had a higher rate of break-ins since the early 1980s, the motor vehicle theft rate has only surpassed the American rate over the last five years. The arson rate in Canada was 40% higher than in the U.S., while the U.S. reported 11% more thefts per capita than Canada. • In examining arrest/charge data, the U.S. had much higher rates for drug offences, impaired driving and prostitution. • The report also compares crime rates among the nine largest metropolitan areas in each country. With the exception of Boston, the remaining eight large American metropolitan areas had homicide rates much higher than any of the nine largest Canadian metropolitan areas. Conversely, Vancouver and Winnipeg reported higher rates of break-ins and motor vehicle thefts than any of the nine American metropolitan areas." You can view the whole PDF here: dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection-R/Statcan/85-002.../0110185-002-XIE.pdf I'm sorry, but your National Post article was either misinterpreted or incorrect. I'm done arguing this. The statistics are clear. I've presented them over and over. Here's all the info from 2009 as well, if you insist on something more recent: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2010002/article/11292-eng.htm As for the other point, I said "you all" not "Renae personally." EDIT: Sorry, Chris, you can go back to your country now. I just needed to correct the facts.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Wicked_Elphaba
On 01/04/2011 17:21:59
I also wish the People's republic of Maryland and DC would let me get a concealed carry.
I know right? I wish the People Republic of Illinois would let me conceal carry too.
I just don't see the point of owning them.
Then don't own one. Simple as that. Against guns? Don't own one!
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/04/2011 17:26:34
I'm not going to dispute anyone's statistics because they're all irrelevant. But Megan, you have NOT shown any causal link between gun control and a reduction in crime. You just keep saying Canada is safer, and Canada has gun control laws, therefore gun control laws make a country safer. This is a huge logical fallacy no matter how many times you repeat it. Using that reasoning, someone in Israel could argue that Canada should repeal its gun laws because violent crime is more common in Canada than in Israel where everyone has guns. That is not logical. It's mistaking correlation for causation.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Megan
On 01/04/2011 17:28:25
^All I was trying to do with the stats, Chris, was to correct Renae's allegation that my country is more dangerous than hers. Period.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/04/2011 17:34:46
I know honey. You're both full of crap. This is exactly why women make terrible statisticians.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Megan
On 01/04/2011 17:41:39
What, you think you know more than the entirety of Stats Canada? I know you think Canada is a joke and all, but you're full of crap.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By d4j
On 01/04/2011 17:44:43
Wow, Baltimore is the murder capitol of the U.S.? And Ace of Cakes makes it look like such a nice place... (Yea, my only knowledge of Baltimore is from that show, lol.) /end hijack
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/04/2011 17:46:52
I didn't say the statistics were wrong. I said they were irrelevant. Honestly, I didn't even really look at them because they don't have anything to do with gun control. And FYI - I do not think Canada is a joke. I think CANADIANS are a joke. Big dif.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Megan
On 01/04/2011 17:58:59
No, I don't. And I believe the ones from an official government agency, actually. There's no need to get all caps locky and sarcastic about it, honestly. I just wanted to provide the facts from the most official source possible. And...
YOU have all been saying
I thought "all" meant a group of people. Whoops.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/04/2011 20:23:23
I'm so sure women are allowed to trash men ALL OVER THIS SITE, but my silly comment is removed. This is exactly why women make terrible comedians.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Christine
On 01/04/2011 20:26:27
Simple as that. Against guns? Don't own one!
^TRUTH! And people who are uncomfortable with guns should not presume to deny the rest of us our 2nd Amendment rights based on your own discomfort. My father taught me to clean his guns when I was 6 years old. I understood that they were serious business. I didn't own a gun of my own as an adult until I was in my 30's and it wasn't a decision I came to lightly. Who knows, years from now, I may change my mind again. But it is a choice I make for my self, my family, and in the context of the community where I live. It is outrageous to think that such a basic right could be taken away from the citizens of this country based on the kind of bantering I'm reading here. To answer the original question, I am for owning a gun, but I certainly don't believe others should be required to. Likewise, people who are against owning a gun themselves should not have any legal power to prevent others from exercising their right to make their own decision on this issue. Let freedom ring! Keep On Dancing*
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By pondfly
On 01/04/2011 22:20:40
You don't play softball with a gun or do crafts with a gun
Here you go- I know the person who makes these and they are real weapons. Here is the one that sits right by my bedside (you can see the case on the shelf by the sidetable- I removed the mag and unloaded it for those of you who might get scared of seeing it. My other one that I keep unlocked, loaded and ready in the other room- Yes, both are loaded and ready as I put an arsonist in jail a few years back and the gang bangers have a price on my head. Proof that even a child-9, educated on safe handling of firearms (he had a terrific score on a 300 yard range). Look at the finger placement and direction of the barrel. And a little motivation for the others out there......
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By webstAr
On 01/04/2011 22:43:13
Ok, perhaps it's time to chime in as another Canadian to help take a bit of the heat off of Megan. The fact of the matter is that gun culture between the US and Canada (as well as the UK, Australia, etc) is SO radically different, that it's nearly impossible to compare the two. I've honestly, in 22 years, never seen a gun in person. In fact, I don't know a single person that owns a gun. I have absolutely no idea how to work one, and I don't really have any desire to learn. Perhaps I'm naive, but I don't often worry about burglars entering my home, getting mugged, sexually assaulted, or needing to defend myself in a life-or-death situation. Even if that was something I worried about on a daily basis, I honestly wouldn't feel any safer with a gun on me. I'm most likely not going to teach my children how to safely handle a gun, because I highly doubt they're going to be in a situation where they need to know how to safely handle a gun. That's not to say I'm going to leave them in the dark, or just say "guns are bad - don't touch!" I just don't believe that children need to learn how to fire a gun to learn that guns can seriously injure or kill people. Growing up, it worked pretty well with me, so I'm not too worried. In Canada, we don't fear "the gun." It's not something we've put on some massive pedestal, and the general feeling towards them isn't that they're "evil." Outside of rural areas, it's just so rare to come across guns, and even in rural areas, they're usually used primarily for hunting - not self defence. I do have to say though, to try and change the gun laws in the States would be a disaster. It goes against so many things that the country was founded on, and wouldn't do the country a lick of good.
Simple as that. Against guns? Don't own one!
Heh, well I guess that's 6 pages of debate summed up in one sentence, now isn't it?
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Megan
On 01/04/2011 23:35:26
^And that's exactly what I've been attempting to say for several pages now. Jeez. Renae, I don't mean to harp on the validity or anything, it's just that mine come from the most official and comprehensive source and yours came from a newspaper's slant on one particular set of stats. Now can you can the sarcasm? It's kind of rude and certainly isn't helping. I'm dealing with you calmly and matter-of-factly, and all I'm getting in return in snark, which is really not fair on a debate board. It's kind of poor behaviour in an adult.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By d4j
On 01/04/2011 23:45:31
I always thought the debate board was made for snark. It's like the one place it's kinda fun... :D
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Wicked_Elphaba
On 01/05/2011 00:24:56
I always thought the debate board was made for snark. It's like the one place it's kinda fun... :D
I thought the snark was for the Secrets board with the "Can I be pregnant because I saw his penis" posts. ;-)
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By d4j
On 01/05/2011 00:27:52
Ah, well that board's a given... :)
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/05/2011 09:10:28
All I want is for everyone to stop saying they want to enact laws because of the way they FEEL. The thing I find REALLY funny is that the some of the same people who've supported gun control because it makes them FEEL safer are the first people to object when others use that line of reasoning on other controversial issues like abortion and drug control. I believe legislation should be based on evidence when possible. And in this case we have PLENTY of evidence. Arguing about the evidence is fine - it's part of a healthy discussion. But ignoring the evidence in favor of your FEELINGS is actually quite frightening.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Megan
On 01/05/2011 11:55:42
Snark towards Chris doesn't count, as he outsnarks the snark before anyone else even thinks about snarking. Statscan tells me that property crime is worse in Canada. I'm certainly not denying that. I'm just saying that on average, I live in a safer country and therefore I don't NEED to have guns around. That's all. See what webstAr wrote? We up here do just fine without them. I'm not trying to tell you guys what kind of laws you should have, I'm just saying that the ones we have work darn well for us. I forget sometimes how up in arms a lot of American can get when it's implied or just stated that another country is better at them than something. Anything. Living in a place that knows perfectly well it sucks at lots of things has at least made me comfortable with that- AND proud of the things we ARE good at, like not shooting each other that much and even generally raping and murdering a lot less than other places. I'm not particularly patriotic but I think it's okay to admit that there's a few things we're doing right here. That's not due to gun control, that's due to a complex set of things, but nonetheless it's something that we are fortunate to have, by and large. The US has tons of awesome things about it, but it is not the best and only country in the world at everything. KTHNXBYE. http://www.newsweek.com/2010/08/15/interactive-infographic-of-the-worlds-best-countries.html Hooray for Finland!
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By d4j
On 01/05/2011 14:21:23
I don't it was mentioned once in this entire thread, or even implied, that anyone thought the good ole U.S. of A was the very bestest country.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/05/2011 16:53:02
^ If anything, I was getting the impression that Canada and Britain thought they were better then the United States because they live in such a good country that they would never need the protection of the gun. I guess things can be misinterpreted over the internet.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Christine
On 01/05/2011 19:03:37
I forget sometimes how up in arms a lot of American can get when it's implied or just stated that another country is better at them than something. Anything.
Wow...aside from the unintentional "up in arms" cliche being the best pun on the thread, I almost don't know where to start here. First of all, guns are always a hot topic. That's why this is a debate. Second, the individuals who disagree with the "anti-gun" point of view are not disagreeing because they are blindly patriotic Americans, in fact, both sides of the debate have been represented by Americans. Third, like Canada, America is a huge country. Life in Montreal is certainly much different than life in the Yukon. Life in New York is vastly different than life in Utah. Even in the cities, or on the farms. Both states have city life and country life. So does Canada. The issue for me, and many, is a matter of government control over personal issues, not patriotism. In fact, it is exactly the opposite. Along with the second amendment, the bill of rights addresses other basic rights of all citizens which at the moment may seem as dated to some as the right to bear arms. For example, the government may not insist that its citizens quarter troops. While the government is working well, or well enough, these things may seem trivial, but what if things took a bad turn to the right or left? This is why it is so important that the right of individuals to arm themselves needs to be preserved. Is this a ridiculous, "what if?" Well, it seemed ridiculous that war could break out on a "civilized" continent like Europe in our recent memory, but guess what? History tells us that we should hope for the best but prepare for the worst. And frankly, if we prepare for the worst and it never happens, isn't that "safer" than hoping for the best and not having a gun when we need one? Sadly...I'm keeping my guns and I HOPE I never have to use them for anything more than target practice. Finally, I don't want to sound like an American zealot, but history has also shown that when other citizens of the world need someone to step up to the plate with their guns and sons, America has been there to defend those without the fire power to defend themselves. Keep On Dancing*
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Heart
On 01/05/2011 21:41:02
There is little I can add to topphilly’s comment [edit: lol, I guess I had a lot to add], only to say that the basic rationale behind America’s Second Amendment applies to all citizens in all countries. The right to bear arms is a check against the government. As Dancing_EMT's avatar demonstrates (albeit in a rather alarmist way), the first step in creating an authoritarian government is to remove the people’s right to own weaponry. One of the criteria in the definition of a “government” is having a monopoly on the legitimate use of force. Having a monopoly on the [i]only[/i] way to use serious force gives the government an incredible upper hand and allows it to easily overstep its bounds of legitimacy. I am in NO WAY saying that the governments in other countries are on their way to becoming authoritarian regimes. To even discuss such things in peacetime seems beyond ridiculous and, yes, totally offensive. However thinking about worst-case scenarios is something you MUST do when creating a government. As topphilly said, if you talked to anyone in Germany in the 1920s about what was going to happen in just a decade, they would have laughed in your face. A Bill of Rights is an insurance policy against the unthinkable. In this debate I am reminded again and again of what Madison says in Federalist #46. In this, Madison is arguing for the ratification of the Constitution – he is arguing against the people who claim that the Constitution creates too strong of a federal government, which would then overpower the state governments and create a dictatorship. But what he says is relevant to our interests. Here, Madison leads us through what hypothetically would happen were the American government to exceed its boundaries through excessive militaristic force: [q]Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger. … [A standing army] would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. [b]To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands,[/b] officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. [b]It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Those who are best acquainted with the last successful resistance of this country against the British arms, will be most inclined to deny the possibility of it. Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation,[/b] the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. [b]Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, [u]the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.[/u][/b] And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes.[b] But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, [u]it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it.[/u] [/b][/q] In other words, citizens bearing arms and organizing into these informal, state-controlled militias, is what caused us to be successful in our rebellion from Britian… and were other countries in Europe to have this advantage (in addition to our organization of state and local governments), [i]the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned.[/i] That’s some heavy stuff. THAT is why we defend our right to bear arms. Not because we are “the best and only country in the world at everything.” Because it is one of the basic rights that allows us to protect our families, homes, livelihoods, and the rest of our rights. Were the worst to happen, our ability to fight is what saves us and allows us to ensure that the rest of the rights promised to us in the Constitution. Remember why we defected from England? [i]“That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government.”[/i] It seems primitive, but you need guns to do that.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Rina
On 01/05/2011 23:05:47
I will probably get a gun sometime or another... to prepare for the zombie apocalypse.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Cadbury_Eater
On 01/06/2011 00:01:59
Wow, well one problem in this thread is definitely generalization. We're generalizing about gender, lumping countries together and such. How will we ever have understanding of each other if we continue this? I will wholeheartedly say that I cannot understand the gun mentality of America (I have never been there myself), however my relatives and friends have been there and definitely prefer Australia's gun laws. However, I'm seeing a whole lot of non effort for understanding my culture and general ignorance for my country. You say I don't have experience with firearms, true, but you don't have experience living in my gun control society. Also, you guys have as much knowledge as me, most of you are just drawing on your personal experience to mainly form your opinion. One thing about the word "gun control". It implies rules and restrictions-not a total ban. While some people here seem to think gun control is an infringement of their rights, it's actually the medium view in a way. The extreme ends of the spectrum are A:Everyone having access to guns, no regulation or B:Absolute gun ban. This is similar to the abortion debate where the extremes would be A:Noone being allowed abortions, forced to have kids or B:Everyone being forced to have abortions. I draw this example because I believe that having very limited gun control (like someone stated some states they just recommend you go to classes for guns? Most people are lazy and won't) is infringing on other people's liberties to live in a non heavy gun environment. If you really badly want a gun, you should be submitted to rigorous tests etc. just like for driving (although I know in the US it's pretty easy to get your license too). It's a right that has to be earned, not a freedom. I know you will preach the Second Amendment, but I personally always thought that Amendment was more for the military if another country tried to infringe on your independence, which you had just recently fought for. Not to have them available to shoot at each other whenever you want. Now for the second point, I see many of you saying things like you have a loaded shotgun in your dresser table. What happens if the home intruder finds your gun and uses it on you? Is that necessarily safer? Before you say the scenario of someone coming into my house with a loaded gun, it's better odds to have it, there' such a miniscule chance they'd have a gun because they're very hard to obtain in Australia. Most people have never seen guns, except on police.With barely any guns, you are very unlikely going to be in a situation with an armed shooter. Also, in a gun free society aren't you more likely to be at mercy of a gun and to feel safe wouldn't you need it not locked up securely but loaded and on you at all times? hence, not only more people being able to shoot each other but to actual have the defence of the gun at all times, more chance of accident because they are always loaded and ready to go. What about the increased probability of randomly being shot with no time to pull out your gun? It doesn't protect you from the malicious intent as well as you think. Guns available=more people getting them which includes more nutjobs. Now for the third point, on children and guns. Here in Australia, kids don't play with gun replica toys, there's restrictions on how "real" they toys can be. With the parenting here, of course, you'd teach your child not to play with a gun. If you can't get your kid to understand the dangers of something, you're failing. We tell our kids not to touch dangerous things here like syringes, stoves and stay away from our numerous deadly fauna...it works. When kids are super young anyway and before they can understand danger they should be under your total supervision anyway. You do not need to give the kid a gun to educate them! I almost flinched when people said they'd just give their kids guns and familiarize them and teach them to shoot as soon they were old enough. . When people grow through adolescence, they can be very impulsive and lead to things like suicide, school shootings etc. Yes, they can use a bomb or a knife, but it just makes ONE LESS thing available. Also, other than the bomb, guns are the only other one that can KILL people from a DISTANCE. And most younger kids won't know how to make a bomb. Most of the scenarios here are not applicable, it's like 0.00000001 % a kid would find a gun at a friend's house and by the age a kid is going over to another's house they would understand a gun is dangerous. Before I'm labelled a fearer of guns. No, I'm not afraid of guns. A gun is not a threat without a person operating it. And what concerns me is the people with access to guns. Most of the scenarios and such in this thread are irrelevant to me because people do not have gun access. Gun's are dangerous because the fact is many humans are not rational enough to use them for any fit purpose. Gun's are one of the only things where the only purpose is to maim and kill. Is it really unrational to have caution or even fear with them? I'll continue to enjoy living in Australia thanks :D Without the availability of the guns, we don't have large gun issues. Gun control has been effective in Australia, despite all you saying it is not effective. Well the govt. initiative here certainly worked.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/06/2011 00:21:08
Holy crap, is that a post or a thesis? It looks fascinating, but it's entirely too long to read in depth. I did skim though, and I will add this
Now for the second point, I see many of you saying things like you have a loaded shotgun in your dresser table.
What? Shotgun in your dresser table? I don't think anyone said that because most shotguns would not fit into a bedside table. You obviously don't even know what a shotgun is. Why are you using words you don't understand? You wouldn't accept that from anyone else in any other debate, would you?
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By pondfly
On 01/06/2011 00:21:18
Life in Montreal is certainly much different than life in the Yukon. Life in New York is vastly different than life in Utah. Even in the cities, or on the farms. Both states have city life and country life. So does Canada.
You should see the difference between Chicago and 20 miles west where I live which has a completely different belief than they do. Then go to central and southern IL and you'd be amazed at how much they embrace weapons into the lifestyle. Our state is one of the hardest to obtain a firearm yet the restrictions are only put into place by the uneducated and fear mongering persons and politicians from Chicago who feel that what is good for them certainly is good for the entire state.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/06/2011 00:34:24
A few asked me about my shooting experiences. I tried to shoot a smiley face on the target with this...I fail at shooting smiley faces. I know some shooters on this thread are cringing at my hand positioning but whatever, I just need more practice. This is a question to all the countries where they don't have a lot of guns. I haven't done any type of google research on this, but is there game hunting in your country? To all you shooters out there, anyone else addicted to the smell of Hoppe's? Something about that calming scent ....if only my boyfriend could wear bodywash made of it.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By OkinawaDancing
On 01/06/2011 00:36:16
I honestly think that perspective plays a large role here. Yes, there are Americans out there who get upset when people bring up the idea that policies or ideas of another country are better than the ones in America. There are also some Americans out there who say "you know what this and it might not be the best but it works for us". The bottom line is that America is still a new country comparatively. With that there are items that the country was founded on that the people in America are attached to. This, of course is fine. It's easy for some people to look over and say "hey this works here why can't it work there". Likewise there are those of us who have had the chance to experience living in different places and that has given us a perspective of how gun laws can work and those who have never lived in a location with strict gun laws which gives them a perspective that they need the protection. Of course people then make decisions based on those perspectives, such as mine where I feel much safer knowing that there are no guns around BUT understand the perspective of those who want to have guns readily available in the case of an emergency. I think that the ultimate question here pertaining to the US is how can we ensure that Americans can exercise their second amendment rights while also protecting those who do not choose to own a firearm. What I mean by this is basically adding a few across the board requirements that are available to anyone within a certain legal age (i.e. a mandatory gun ownership course that needs to be completed before you receive your license similar to drivers ed) and taking some of the stats and evaluating where there are problems (if we know that guns are a problem in houses with kids **PURELY AN EXAMPLE** and the numbers are overwhelming work to find ways to drop the number of incidence) Yes everyone has these "rights" available to them however I believe that most of us can agree that there are situations where these rights need to be evaluated a bit closer for all of our protection. Of course there are those out there who feel that because it was in the constitution it's as simple as that and can not be disputed, which I think all of us know is not necessarily the case (criminals, mentally unstable, violent behavior and so on) and so a line needs to be drawn but it's difficult. There will always be those who feel that any type of restriction or requirement added to the policies are in some way taking away rights when if done carefully what it would do is actually ensure that rights are protected on both sides of the fence. At least that's me.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By d4j
On 01/06/2011 00:36:39
Cadbury, you said:
Most people have never seen guns, except on police.
but then you started the very next sentence with:
Also, in a gun free society
And the first thing I thought was, well, that's not a gun-free society if the police have them...
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By OkinawaDancing
On 01/06/2011 00:52:52
^^I would have to agree.
This is a question to all the countries where they don't have a lot of guns. I haven't done any type of google research on this, but is there game hunting in your country?
In Japan (where guns are illegal with very few exceptions) hunting is not very popular at all as it is in the US but it is still possible but with a LOT of restrictions. On top of other requirements such as a lengthy application process for a license you are also required to take a course specifically geared to hunting safety and purchase a gun that has been approved/registered by the Japanese Police department. This is also the case when referring to shooting for sport (not sure what they call it here because you don't hear much about it) where there is a lengthy list of restrictions.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By PureTap
On 01/06/2011 01:16:29
I taught a girl in Phoenix that was trying to qualify for the Olympics in shooting and had an ROTC rifle scholarship to college. My husband knows someone who trains people for biathlons that incorporate cross country skiing and shooting. I can't imagine our country not allowing such things and people shunning the sport of shooting because they are frightened of guns. It totally baffles me.
Just to clear up a misconception with this one, Australia has Firearm Laws in place, but we still have sporting shooters. In fact, my husband's Uncle is a Commonwealth Games Medalist in Rapid Fire Shooting, and one of my friends from another Forum I belong to is a Olympic and Commonwealth Medallist in Prone Rifle Shooting. No one I know has anything against either of them competing in these sports, nor practising for them at their local Rifle/Pistol Clubs. The difference is that they can't just walk around the streets toting their pistol or rifle. They keep them locked up in fixed heavy metal cabinets at their houses under lock and key, and they have separate safes to store their bolts and magazines in that must be a minimum of 10m away from the locked metal cabinets. Whilst these are not impenetrable for someone to break into if they had an plasma cutter, it would involve a lot of effort and the security guards would probably be at their house quicker than that could happen anyway, because they've got Back to Base Alarms in their houses (their choices, not because they've been made to - both are very conscious about safety). Some time ago, someone (Jazzy, I think) asked the question as to where this perception came from that you guys could wander into a Gas Station and buy a firearm, because it's a misconception. My husband was over in the USA last year in California with the Defence Force and, the town they were staying in had at least one Gas Station that had a wall of alcohol down one side of the store, hot greasy take-away food down the other, and the back wall was covered in firearms for sale. Yes, it was in a town that was near a military area so I suppose it may have just been the area but, yep, he says they exist and I believe him. Deep south stuff...so that's where my comment came from. Also, your own major industry, Hollywood, is also quite good for spreading this apparent misconception, so bring on the Tarantino bashing! But, whatever, MY COUNTRY IS FOURTH on the list, so there...nyah, nyah, de, nyah, nyah!!! :D
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/06/2011 01:21:32
Puretap, I have never been to the Deep South, so I had no idea that foreign people could just buy unregistered guns like that. I live in California, and people would probably freak out if they saw a gun in public. We are not allowed to carry them in public concealed. I guess we can carry them on a open holster or something, but the cops WILL get called for that. I think the deep south has a much more pro gun community then we have.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/06/2011 01:25:55
I assure you that gas stations are not normally allowed to sell firearms. The VAST majority of gas stations can only sell beer and wine - not even liquor. I'm not doubting your husband's story, but that was obviously a combination liquor store/gas station/gun shop, and I've never seen anything like that before.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By PureTap
On 01/06/2011 01:32:15
Jazz, I don't know if the husband could have bought one of the guns there because he didn't try. He was just a bit baffled that you could have so many needs satisfied in one place that was supposed to sell petrol! You can just imagine this big fat guy, all liquored up, totin' him some loaded iron ready to blast the bejeesous outta anyun that wanted to take him on, yok, yok, yok... :O Extra bit of editing - Panic, I've just done a bit of research to see if I could back this up with anything. I found a few references to Gun Shops that sold gas and alcohol in small towns, so maybe that's what he went in to? We're used to Gas Stations selling mainly petrol here, with limited grocery items as well so maybe he mispercieved it and it was a gun shop, that had a sideline of gas and grog?
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Cadbury_Eater
On 01/06/2011 04:54:44
*handgun (though I already stated I don't have knowledge on different guns or operation, only ones I've talked about briefly in school war assignments)But still find it bizarre for any type of gun to be stored locked and loaded in a bedside table. *an almost gun free society is term I meant or strictly controlled gun society, sorry for the lack of clarification Well, it's one of those topics we're not going to agree about it. But I am against owning a gun, as per the two options in the title. I don't know if gun control laws would work in America, because they'd need a lot of manpower to enforce it etc. There's probably places your money is needed more like healthcare and supporting the high unemployed population due to the recession you experienced. Also the fact it's not isolated as Australia with land borders. But that wasn't the purpose of the debate, just whether you are for guns or not. I don't know enough about American culture, but from what I understand from people who've been there and this website, that it is vastly different from Australia in its values, societal breakdown and the way it's run. It's a tough issue, but I suppose your democracy has let the voting majority to decide on gun control. And you can decide what country to live in, so power to all you pro gun Americans. But just the one begging question I have which I'll take from my earlier post (cause people just picked two small sections out), was the Second Amendment actually written with the intention of all citizens to bear arms? Or just to bear arms when under threat of your independence being taken (e.g for the military) or maybe just intended for hunting food or wild animals? Cause you will typically preach the Second Amendment for freedom to own guns but I always thought the amendment was for the military to have guns to only protect if your free state status was threatened?
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Heart
On 01/06/2011 09:17:25
Oh yeah, he's dead. Shotguns are awesome.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Anon1234567890
On 01/06/2011 09:34:22
All of these pictures of people with guns, and the fact that you can actually purchase a *s*t*u*n*n*i*n*g* pink gun (can I get a diamante encrusted one too?) just hints at them being seen as fashion accessories and something to show off about, which I find a very strange attitude indeed. I don't mind if someone wants a gun because they like the way it makes them feel, if it's legal it's fine. But just admit that instead of pretending it's for protection or whatever. Honestly, I think the whole attitude is much more "it's my CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to have a gun so I'm going to have one regardless!" than anything else. People have guns (and this has been said many times over) because that's what people in their area do, and I don't think people actually put any thought into why they "need" one. They were brought up on it so that's the way they continue to live, no questions asked. I reckon if you'd never had the right to own one, you wouldn't miss it, same as those of us from other countries don't miss them. But these are just my [i]feelings[/i].
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By amarath
On 01/06/2011 09:35:35
OK, so I haven't been keeping up with this, and it was a million pages ago. But:
Amartha, you may say that, but hopefully you will never be put into a position where you wish you had a gun. You may personally never been in a position like this but home invasions/muggings happen on a daily basis in my area. My guy goes to several calls a day that involves things similar to this. I honestly find it a bit nutty that you WOULDN'T want a weapon to protect yourself. I don't understand the theory of making it easier for criminals to take advantage of you.
I live in a safe neighborhood in a huge city. Since 1999, there has been one murder in my neighborhood (technically a town incorporated inside the city of Houston--I live inside 610). Last year there were no reported rapes and 72 reported burglaries for a town of 18,000 people. Our crime rate was 44% of the national average. So no, I don't feel the need for a gun at all. If I took up hunting or sport shooting, sure. However, I don't feel the need to form a well-ordered militia of one, and frankly I don't envision myself being in need. It's funny, we always talk about reasonable risks and precautions, like how deli turkey probably won't harm a fetus and how your children are more likely to be harmed by parents that don't let them go outside than by stranger danger, but crime makes a lot of people lose their sense of perspective. America is the safest it's been in decades, with a precipitous drop in crime across the board, but if you're exposed to a lot of media, you'd come off with a completely different vision of this country. I think I'll risk being the murder a decade before I'll swallow this idea that I need to live in fear.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/06/2011 09:51:07
was the Second Amendment actually written with the intention of all citizens to bear arms?
That has been debated, and fairly recently, the supreme court decided the amendment referred to individual citizens and not only an armed militia. It was intended so we can defend ourselves FROM OUR OWN GOVERNMENT - which we have done TWICE IN THE LAST 250 YEARS (once successfully, once not so much). Re Louise: you don't see any photos of me with a gun, do you? I assure you my guns are for self-protection and not for fashion.
I found a few references to Gun Shops that sold gas and alcohol in small towns
Well, Wal-Mart sells guns and alcohol, so it's completely plausible. I've just never seen one so, I didn't want people to think you can walk into any gas station and buy a pistol.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/06/2011 09:55:43
What's wrong with a pink gun? Heck, some police woman even carry pink handcuffs! Louise, you have to custom order a pink gun. If I am going to practice shooting it on a weekly basis, I may as well get something easy on the eyes. Plus, it is the same model that my boyfriend has, so it makes it easier to tell apart if we have them laying around. What makes you think that they aren't for protection? People don't go shooting out on ranges weekly because it is for "fun". I mean there might be some people that do it for sport , but the majority of people I know go for practice. You guys are making it sound easy to actually shoot someone. Do you know how hard it is to kill someone with a bullet from a handgun? More times then often, people don't die from handgun wounds either, unless there was an amazing headshot or something. Ever notice cops carry shotguns in their cars and rifles? I think some of you are getting the impression that you can just point a gun at a person, and kill them. It is a heck a lot of harder then that to get a good shot. Which is why you see pictures of US with guns at ranges. We aren't there it make fashion statements nor are we there to just "have fun". Non gun people don't appreciate the photos, but I have personally enjoyed the photos that people post. It shows me that they are responsible and none of them have shot their foot or brains out yet. Oh btw, people seemed to have their panties in their bunch, and they didn't notice that I was shooting an illegal gun. It is a semi auto, which is illegal in CA. If a law abiding citizen can get their hands on in it, imagine what a criminal can do.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By SaraTheGrouch
On 01/06/2011 09:56:31
Why do I "need" a gun? Why do you "need" a cell phone, computer, television, car, light bulbs, knitting needles, etc? Because a gun is a vital part of shooting, which is one of my favorite hobbies. Shooting is a (non-medicinal) way for me to fine tune my attentiveness, reflexes, and focus, while releasing stress. It's just like playing golf, in that it takes a great deal of time, effort, and patience to get good at it. I don't just point my gun down range and spray all over the place. A golf club could also be used as a deadly weapon, you know... And not only is it my hobby, but it is also a way for me to defend myself an my family against unwanted visitors and woodland creatures. I think all of the above should suffice as enough justification as to why I "need" a gun. And about pink hand grips - they get filthy after two trips to the range. Hello, LEAD?!
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Anon1234567890
On 01/06/2011 10:01:25
Panic, you didn't see me saying anything about feeling safer without guns around but that didn't stop you generalising about me now did it? And a police officer of any gender with pink handcuffs is an absolute disgrace to the profession. Utterly pathetic. They're for restraining criminals, not for looking pretty. Honestly, I can't believe you've just tried to justify a pink firearm by saying that police officers can carry pretty girly equipment. I'm amazed their force allows it; I'm amazed they themselves think it's acceptable - yes for foreplay, no for the very serious business of arresting a criminal. It's absolutely farcical, a mockery. Gives a really good impression of policewomen as well - awww, gotta let the little woman have her girly touches, right? Yeah, I bet her male colleagues (and sane female colleagues) really take her seriously. Not to mention the criminals. Just...wow. There really aren't enough adjectives.
You guys are making it sound easy to actually shoot someone.
I have said nothing of the sort. Sick to death of you putting words in my mouth on this thread, woman.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/06/2011 10:04:36
Louise you really seem to have your head somewhere else. Can you think of any reason why police woman carry pink handcuffs other then for it to look pretty? Come on, you can do it, think very hard. I will give you a hint to make it easier to comprehend... Have you ever been a roomful of people where you all put your waterbottles down?
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Anon1234567890
On 01/06/2011 10:13:24
^ After not commenting on this thread for some time I thought I'd got your condescension out of my system but there you go again, grating. And you really need to get ALL of your thoughts down before you edit and change the entire thrust of the post.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/06/2011 10:19:55
Excuse me, condescension ? How about YOU being condescending to cops when you don't have a heck about what is going on. I'm not being condescending to you, I am being condescending to your lack of knowledge about the debate topic and the fact that you harshly scolded cops for carrying pink handcuffs, when you don't know WHY they carry it. You are assuming it is for fashion reasons. Do you really think woman cops just go " Oh wait, that's gonna look pretty on a criminal trlalalalal" Along with pink, you will see lime green, red, blue, yellow etc. I am sure that Pondfly can testify to that. If I said that I thought that all Brits had bad teeth and were fat old maidens, don't you think you might try to correct me too?
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/06/2011 10:30:57
girlfight!!! pull her hair! pull her hair!
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By d4j
On 01/06/2011 10:31:51
Pink cuffs? I have never heard of handcuffs in colors (that's colours to you quibblers). I've heard of pink FUR cuffs but that's different! ;)
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Wicked_Elphaba
On 01/06/2011 10:33:03
Dude, if I was a cop, I'd TOTALLY carry pink handcuffs. In fact, I'd get them custom so they'd sparkle! Nothing funnier than gang-banger trash wearing pink sparkly handcuffs. That being said, Pondfly is going to get me a purple handgun as soon as we send $10 to the People's Republic of Illinois for my FOID card and we have the extra money to get it for me. (See photo above) Nothing says "I love you" like a purple firearm for your bride. ;-) Could you imagine being a criminal and telling the trauma surgeon you got shot with a purple gun? Ha ha ha. I also want the purple AR-15 pictured below. :-D I'm not going to apologize for liking purple. I'd get a leopard print gun if we could find it. :-p Without further adieu....The AR-15 I am drooling over.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/06/2011 10:38:30
If the bullet didn't kill them, the shame did ;) I would carry pink handcuffs so people knew they were mine and stop stealing them off of me; those things are pretty expensive! You don't know how many handcuffs got "stolen" off my boyfriend.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/06/2011 10:40:51
I haven't seen a cop with ANY handcuffs in years. Down here they all use those plastic zip-tie thingies.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Wicked_Elphaba
On 01/06/2011 10:46:48
If the bullet didn't kill them, the shame did ;) I would carry pink handcuffs so people knew they were mine and stop stealing them off of me; those things are pretty expensive! You don't know how many handcuffs got "stolen" off my boyfriend.
Why do you think I carry hot pink or purple trauma shears? I also have a purple Littmann stethoscope, I've offered to let others borrow my purple gear, they won't because it's purple. ;-)
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Chaconne
On 01/06/2011 10:52:23
I haven't seen a cop with ANY handcuffs in years. Down here they all use those plastic zip-tie thingies.
Watch the "Bait Car" TV show clips on YouTube. Those cops always seem to use hand cuffs. I suspect they use both. Jon
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/06/2011 10:53:11
Plastic zip things? Man, I would assume those would cut into the wrist if the suspect resisted arrested after being tied up. Those don't sound very user friendly to me lol.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By pondfly
On 01/06/2011 10:53:17
Alright, calm down everyone. We all have different opinions and have feelings about the subject which is great, but there is no need to have firm points on things. Everyone has to have a little give and take. As for the subject of purchasing firearms, [u]anyone[/u] can become a FFL (firearms dealer) so long as they fill out the appropriate forms, pay the fees and then get a heavy background check by the ATF (regulating authority in the US). Nobody in this country can go purchase any type of firearm without filling out the proper ATF forms and have a check done. The only exceptions, are for non-firing, antique (mid 1800 and earlier) and other governmental agencies. That being said governmental agencies still have to fill out special forms when purchasing fully automatic firearms just like the public but they don't have to pay the $200 transfer tax fee. Transfers between FFL dealers are permitted with nothing other than a transfer form being filled out and sent to the ATF so serial numbers can be tracked. If Joe Blow citizen walked into a shop, plunked down $300 for a gun, walked out with one and never filled out any paperwork both parties would be in a whole lot of trouble and has a very good chance of some prison time. Am I saying that it doesn't happen, no. But these transactions are done under the table with stolen firearms and at some point in time they will be caught. The ATF really does a great job on tracking firearms and dealers, which is surprising when dealing with federal agencies. Now as for the handcuff colors. They have been used for about 5 years now from determining persons who need special attention (combative persons) to departments and officers wanting to identify their property. There are no rules that you must have polished, brushed or black cuffs. All they need to do is work as designed by the regulating authority. Here's a nice link showing some of the more "flavorful" colors available.... http://www.handcuffwarehouse.com/common/images/products/large/HHCLlarge.jpg Hey, Amy uses the purple ones on me when in bed :D j/k Most officers carry a pair or two of the regular type and then carry flex for more frequent uses or if they won't be transporting to the holding facility. Are they comfortable- No, but they aren't designed to be. They are a temporary restraint and won't cut someone unless they are trying to break out of them but they take 250-300#+ to break them and by then they will be having some other problems.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/06/2011 11:04:09
Nobody in this country can go purchase any type of firearm without filling out the proper ATF forms and have a check done
That only applies if I'm buying from a dealer. I can just buy from my neighbor, and I don't have to do any paperwork.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By pondfly
On 01/06/2011 11:06:08
^ yes, but you have to do a s/n transfer and hold it for 10 years.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/06/2011 11:21:19
Huh?
Florida law allows private firearm sales between residents without requiring any processing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_%28by_state%29#Florida No paperwork. No hold. No nothin as long as it's not across state lines.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By sharra
On 01/06/2011 12:43:54
I think we need to bring the discussion down to a dull roar, so allow me to quote Eddie Izzard: "guns don't kill people, PEOPLE kill people (and sometimes, monkeys do too)" I have to agree with Louise that those who were brought up with a constitutional right to bear arms probably wouldn't miss having that right if they hadn't been brought up with it. Same as us folks from some European countries. There are so many arguments for and against, some bordering to the plain silly (on both sides). For me, as a citizen in a European country with hefty gun control, I am just at a loss why the right to own a gun is so important, and I'm delighted at living in a country with such laws as we have here. If not I'd move.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/06/2011 13:13:33
Have you never heard of a little thing called the American Revolution? [spoiler]You lost[/spoiler]
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By kandykane
On 01/06/2011 13:22:50
No paperwork. No hold. No nothin as long as it's not across state lines.
This is true. There is more paperwork involved in buying a used car than a used gun. kk~
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Megan
On 01/06/2011 13:23:44
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812 EDIT: Can't stop baiting the panis. Sorry.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Munkenstein
On 01/07/2011 06:35:39
http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/06/nebraska.school.shooting/index.html?hpt=T1 Usually I can't stand reading comments on news articles but there are some good ones on this article about how this is not a problem with guns; it's a cultural problem. Too many people are unable to handle their problems; they are emotionally stunted for whatever reason. So on and so on.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/07/2011 14:35:34
Megan, you're a master baiter.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Christine
On 01/07/2011 14:49:22
^And according to previous posts, I believe our Panic is a self proclaimed Cunning Linguist. No wonder we all get along so well! Keep On Dancing*
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Megan
On 01/07/2011 14:50:42
Finally, someone gets something right on this thread. Jeez.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By panic
On 01/07/2011 16:12:02
Panic is a self proclaimed Cunning Linguist.
That just made me throw up in my mouth a little. lol.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Megan
On 01/07/2011 16:14:08
^You can share my title instead. I wouldn't want that one either. Ew.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Christine
On 01/07/2011 18:12:20
Panic is a self proclaimed Cunning Linguist.
That just made me throw up in my mouth a little. lol.
Sorry...too many movie lines stuck in my head. Please continue with the debate, master debaters. Keep On Dancing* PS The question at hand was, "should people be allowed to own guns". Keep On Dancing*
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By kandykane
On 01/07/2011 18:52:06
...master (de)baters
*snicker* kk~
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Cadbury_Eater
On 01/07/2011 20:06:13
You don't have any little boys running around pretending to shoot things in Australia? REALLY? When my brothers were little my dad had a no gun policy and refused to let them play with ANY toy gun whatsoever. My brother used to run around the house shooting my brother with a banana. My dad realized how silly he was being when my brothers were making guns out of aluminum foil. He gave them an air gun and started teaching them about gun safety and hunting. I had a nephew that wasn't allowed to play with guns. He used to try and shoot me with anything that he picked up...the funniest was when he came from behind the couch to shoot me with his tie before going to church. Boys do that kind of stuff. I don't know many boys that I have been around that don't. My husband and son have water gun fights, nerf gun fight and they are 14 and 48.
I never said little kids and that couldn't use their fingers or bananas to shoot at each other, just that we don't have realistic gun toys. The closest would be a water pistol, which doesn't look like a actual gun. Just saying a kid would be less likely to confuse a toy and a gun because they look entirely different because our toys aren't like REAL GUNS. So the whole argument of kids not knowing the difference because I haven't handed them a real gun and then shot with them does not hold water.
Yeah over here in the States we encourage our kids to touch dirty things like needles and syringes, we totally advocate putting their face on a hot stove, play with venomous snakes, and never ever ever watch our kids. I do have a question though, since you are all so good at teaching your kids the dangers of everything why do you have any accidents that happen or any crime rate at all? Obviously some of it isn't working. I learned to shoot when I was 7 years old. My brothers were 12-14. Every single kid I knew at school had shot a gun at some point before they were 18. None of us ever shot someone, shot ourselves, etc. Your opinion makes no sense and is based on no facts whatsoever! You can find out how to make a bomb on the internet or in a library book. People that are responsible gun owners that have taught their kids about guns know that guns can be dangerous. If you saw one at a friends house (which I never did in 18 years of growing up with gun friendly people), we wouldn't just pick it up and play with it. You are taught to not handle other people's weapons. DUH!! I didn't go to my friend's house and play in their parent's car, or smoke their cigarettes, or drink their liquor. You respect people's property and you know not to touch other people's things.
Oh yes, teaching children to not do something OBVIOUSLY doesn't work, because my country has a crime rate and accidents. Whoop de doo, that all your kids turned out you knew turned out fine but how come I hear of kids accidentally shooting themselves or a school or uni shooting in your country now and again on the news? Because obviously your gun control laws aren't working because irresponsible people get guns, who obviously don't teach their children. So I've grown up with all my friends turning out fine too and never accidentally shooting anyone, without having to hold a gun and just being educated they are dangerous. As I said the scenario of finding a gun in a house here is so extremely slim, yet despite that guns here are few, any kid that's old enough to be left unsupervised would know what it is and not play with it. Yes, someone could work how to make a bomb, I'm not disputing someone make a bomb here or in the States. But you have to be pre mediatated to make a bomb, where if you had access to a gun, it'd be a lot more convenient. And despite the fact that apparently you're all responsible gunowners, the occasional nutter obviously gets a gun. Probably there is a more blackmarket for it because all those responsible gunowners guns are stolen and dealt under the table. Oh and what about in some states just being able to sell to each other with no paperwork? With our strict control, we don't have the possibility for a lot of these scenarios to be even plausible. The likelihood of a kid coming across a gun is so slim, barely anyone has them and most people keep them well locked up because they don't want to lose their license and face fines. Everyone in my family has lived their whole lives with not encountering a scenario that having a gun would be advantageous. I will pay that my scenario was unlikely, however even if you had a gun on you, you could also be shot from long range before you even had chance to pull your own gun. Think of mass shootings? You'd at least have to admit it'd be safer if less people had guns, but I understand your guys dependence to have them because gun control would likely not be effectively enforced because of having land borders, blackmarket etc. If you grew up without guns around, you would not miss them. However in the same breath, I think if you had more gun control, it would reduce the likelihood of guns falling in to unresponsible people's hands. Like I can't fathom not having to do paperwork when selling in between people from the same state! But one thing, I don't understand is this prideful culture of having a gun! All these happy snaps with guns, I don't fathom how you can have happy snaps with something solely designed to kill. (Not saying you all have that culture, just a few on this thread) I'm not begrudging DDNers, because I'm sure you're responsible owners, but with many people having guns it just make it way more possible for it to fall in to the wrong hands, and then, are you really safer for having a gun? Cause the most dangerous thing about a gun is the person behind it. Thanks for the clarification on the Second Amendment. I hope we aren't causing rifts between each other in this fiery debate, but it's really a clash of culture. I'm sure I sound absurd to you, but it all sounds so absurd to me.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By YumYumDoughnut
On 01/07/2011 21:55:06
^ I think the best I can explain it is ...pointe shoes. For someone who isn't a dancer, they may not understand why anyone would want to put on shoes that makes the feet hurt. Why would anyone wear shoes designed to put huge amounts of pressure on such a small surface. Dancers look just as good on flat shoes, so there is no need for the strain of pointe shoes. " I don't fathom how you can have happy snaps with something solely designed to make the woman look unreal ( Make believe land)l and hurt the feet." I think the whole "showing off the gun" thing has to do with like minded owners. For the record, the gun in the picture is not under my possession. I think it is like pointe shoes. Pointe shoes aren't designed to show off, but I sure see plenty of pointe shoes on this site. If you find something that really fits your feet, you should be proud of it. Same as a gun. Once you find that perfect one, you bond with it. While a gun is designed to protect and kill, it doesn't mean that you can't show other gun owners. It is the equivalent of showing off your amazing new Blochs that make your arch look amazing.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By MarlaSinger
On 01/08/2011 07:30:49
For the record, I do not personally own any guns, nor have I ever shot one, but Mark has a couple (we're American), so this is more based on secondhand knowledge. Yes, a gun can kill, but target shooting is also a legitimate hobby and form of recreation, and people who have practiced at it and who have some skill at it are generally proud of it, just like most of us are when we learn a new skill. Would you have the same issue with someone posting a picture of themselves posing with a bow and arrow? Because to me it's not really any different. I don't look at these pictures and say, "Oh, look at Heart with her killing machine! Now she can go out and blow someone's brains out!" I see it more as pride about mastering a certain skill, and one that makes a lot of people feel pretty good about themselves, even if they never take the gun outside the firing range. I also think that when it's a female posing for the picture, there is sometimes an additional measure of pride that they have tried and succeeded at a pursuit that is typically associated with men, but I certainly don't want to speak for all women. I just know that if it were ME in the picture, I would probably feel that way.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By poko
On 01/08/2011 16:21:46
So, with the shooting of Gifford today.... The fact he was carrying a concealed weapon? Oh, and someone did try to shoot back, missed. A 9 year old girl died. Thoughts? They are focusing highly on the fact the shooter may have a mental illness. But what about the fact that he was still issued a gun? Id feel unsafe walking down a street, not knowing who might have a weapon. It looks like guns and safety is a huge difference between Americans and Australians.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Christine
On 01/08/2011 17:35:19
^This was certainly a tragedy. And things like this make us all shake our heads and look for a quick fix to make sure it never happens again. In one of my previous posts I mentioned that my position on gun ownership was something I did not come to lightly. When I was very young I lived through so many national tragedies involving guns that I swore I'd never own one. In my adult life, I've been touched by more than one tragedy involving a child and a gun. Again, I asked, why does anyone need a gun? But the sad truth is that there are times when we have to hold our nose before we vote. If the world was a safe, fair, predictable place, 1+1 would always equal 2. In many places, 1+1=doughnut. It was actually events in Europe in 1992 that changed my mind. http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/bosnia.htm Until then, I believed that as long as people remembered the pain of violence and intolerance the governments of civilized nations could protect its citizens. Then I grew up. It is just awful that the five people in Arizona were killed today. It is also awful that so many peace loving people were terrorized by these events. However, from time to time madmen drive cars through the windows of stores, terrorists deliver bombs on bicycles, and plant poison laced Tylenol on store shelves. Life can be ugly. I sincerely hope the citizens of Tuscon can find the strength to endure the days ahead and can heal the way the citizens of Oklahoma City did years ago. (ps...a car...no guns...and babies were killed) Peace. Keep On Dancing*
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By pondfly
On 01/10/2011 16:10:55
@Poko- Your info was a little off about someone from the public shooting back. A little info on the AZ shooting, the person who was armed did not fire as he didn't have a clear shot on the offender. He and another person waited for him to run out and then use that advantage to subdue him. Why did he do this? Because the persons who carry concealed know the dangers of firing a weapon and the cause/effect that would happen if someone took a life. Think if he tried to take out the person and shot a another bystander by mistake? The media would have ripped him to shreds. The failure here was the usual, state and federal agencies not openly sharing information. This person, due to his heroic actions is getting a custom built rifle donated to him as a thanks from a weapon manufacturer that I know and support. Oh, and before the haters come in, here is the interview of the person carrying concealed. http://www.kgun9.com/Global/story.asp?S=13812679 The Heroes of Tragedy As Zamudio ran out the Walgreens he said that a man told him to run and that's exactly what he did. But Zamudio ran toward the shooter. "Well I think this is how we need to react. We're Americans and we need to not be afraid" said Zamudio. After using up one magazine clip, Jared Loughner who investigators have named as the shooter, ran out of bullets and tried to reload. That's when Maisch stepped in. "Somebody said 'Grab the magazine'. So, he got it out of his pocket and it ended up on the sidewalk next to his hand but I was able to grab it before he did and get the magazine" said Maisch. Two men took the gunman down and Zamudio says he kept him there. "I put my legs behind his knees and my arm on the small of his back and the other guy was stepping on his neck" described Zamudio. "Did he look like he was in shock?" asked Vo. "I don't think so. His face was calm. His face was even and he had almost a smirk on his face" said Zamudio. When deputies showed up, Zamudio says he watched as they emptied as many as 90 bullets out of the shooter's pockets. Zamudio has no doubt that the shooter had plans of taking more lives. He is saddened over the loss of all the victims, especially 9-year-old Christina Green. "This little girl didn't have a chance to do anything and she gets her pink slip early because this kid's an idiot? This jerk can't deal with his aggressions or cant make friends or whatever his problem was that he has to come out here and ruin nineteen families?" said Zamudio. "If you could say something to him today, what would you say?" asked Vo. "I'm glad I didn't shoot you. He has to pay for it. He has to look everyone in the eye. Has to look at all those mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters."
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Cadbury_Eater
On 01/11/2011 18:59:28
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110112/ap_on_re_us/us_congresswoman_shot_the_gun_6 That news article states the he was able to buy the gun himself, as he passed all the requirements. Do you think gun control in Arizona (one of the most lax states) needs to be tightened? Is there a state with gun control laws you deem ideal, that should be modelled nationwide? Or do you believe Loughner was one of those that just slipped through the cracks, and was unavoidable? Personally, my heart goes out to all those affected by the tragedy. I just think that without change, it is doomed to happen again. The change doesn't necessarily have to be related to gun laws either, there's plenty of other social issues at hand too. Like you could suggest more training in schools to detect mental health issues, more security at politcal events etc. I know there's no quick fix answer either. Just do you think should be done that would hopefully reduce the chance of a tragedy like this happening again?
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Wicked_Elphaba
On 01/11/2011 19:27:01
That news article states the he was able to buy the gun himself, as he passed all the requirements. Do you think gun control in Arizona (one of the most lax states) needs to be tightened? Is there a state with gun control laws you deem ideal, that should be modelled nationwide? Or do you believe Loughner was one of those that just slipped through the cracks, and was unavoidable?
I don't necessarily thinks it needs to be tightened, but agencies need to communicate. In the People's Republic of Illinois, I have to fill out an application for a FOID (Firearm Owner Identification Card) card, there is a question that asks if you're mentally retarded and if you've ever been committed. Since he is not mentally retarded, nor had he ever been committed, he could probably buy a gun in Illinois, which is a state for being notoriously tough on gun control. No system will ever be perfect. But banning gun all together is not the answer as stuff like this will still happen.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By pondfly
On 01/11/2011 21:47:18
Unfortunately the problem with this country and I can say from first hand experience is that communication is the issue. Local doesn't talk to state; State doesn't talk to Feds; Feds don't talk to Feds. Tighten that gap and it would close a considerable amount of problems for legal transactions through an FFL.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Heart
On 01/12/2011 10:38:23
What on earth could have been added to the background check to deny Loughner the weapon? Being charged with a crime cannot be a disqualification - you are innocent until proven guilty, especially when a charge is dropped. Due to the massive overcrowding of the criminal justice system, it isn't practical to do away with programs such as those allowing charges to be dropped if rehab is completed. In addition, the charges were extremely minor - possessing pot paraphenalia and vandalism? Those are misdemeanors! Being banned from a college campus? That has nothing to do with anything, really. Colleges are not part of the criminal justice system, and even public schools are pretty much private institutions. Campus public safety are not "real" law enforcement. Unless the police get involved, there's no viable way for that to be incorporated into a background check. Mental health problems? Loughner was never diagnosed with anything and never even saw a mental health professional. There is no reason to deny him a firearm on those grounds. And the spokesman from NAMI is right - overwhelmingly, those with mental illnesses are NOT violent. From [url=http://www.nami.org/Content/ContentGroups/Press_Room1/20076/April6/The_Virginia_Tech_Tragedy_Distinguishing_Mental_Illness_from_Violence.htm]the Surgeon General's report on mental illness[/url]: "the overall contribution of mental disorders to the total level of violence in society is exceptionally small." Rejection from the army? Private is private, and again, he failed a drug test. Not exactly an indication of future violence. The bottom line is that we can't prevent all tragedies. In a lot of cases, there is [i]nothing[/i] that could possibly have been done.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By SaraTheGrouch
On 03/29/2011 07:20:02
^ Maryland strikes AGAIN! I can't stand the laws in that state.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Heart
On 05/13/2011 12:21:18
^ Dude, what? You've been here since 2005. This is the debate forum. Your opinion means nothing. "I'm sorry but, just no it's not right"??? That's pretty much the same thing as saying "Goblin spatula tortoise frigid sauerkraut," for all we care and for all the information it gives us.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Trout
On 05/13/2011 19:21:34
So there's already 9 pages of debate but I'm popping in now for a little story. Sorry if what I've said has been repeated but I'm too lazy to read nine whole pages of replies. Guns make me feel safe. Maybe it's because I'm an American or whatever, but I do feel safer when myself/other people have guns. I recently took a trip to Israel, and at any given time, I could look around and see a soldier with a machine gun. Granted, this is an example of extreme military security in a country, but I felt totally safe while I was there. In the States, I don't mind if people are carrying guns. If I'm smart about things and don't get involved in any silly business, I don't need to actively worry about getting shot. Yes, people have been killed by being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but I could die at any time for any reason simply from being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I could get hit by a car and die, I could get food poisoning and die, I could fall down the stairs and die, so getting accidentally shot isn't a huge concern for me. All accidents could have been prevented. Preventable accidents happen all the time, you can't live your life in fear. I don't carry a gun. I have a .22 rifle for target practice, which I find to be a really fun sport. I've considered carrying a small handgun in the past, but I figure if I ever got into a situation that would require me pulling a gun, I wouldn't be the only person with a gun, and I would be out of luck.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Wicked_Elphaba
On 05/18/2011 18:36:10
[q=hylndlas]
I am dead against this and it completely baffles that it is legal in America for practically anyone to own a gun. I'm sorry but, just no it's not right.
In American it is a "Right" to own (and carry depending on your state....but they can not restrict ownership if you met certain requirements). The right falls under our second amendment. You may not like it....but our founding fathers fought a rather ugly war to make sure the average Joe could be free. You also have the right to NOT own. I have no problem with that at all. I know many people do not care for guns. While I respect your right about not owning, please return the favor and don't restrict my right to own. There are a lot of responsible gun owners here in the states. I'm one of them.[/q] As am I. See photos above. I am licensed and am pleased as punch the NRA filed suit against the People's Republic of IL for not allowing concealed carry because it infringes on my 2nd amendment rights. Gun control means using both hands.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Cadbury_Eater
On 05/21/2011 06:41:15
I find Trout's explanation so interesting. It's a polar opposite to how I'd feel knowing everyone has guns. I find the thought of seeing everyone with guns making me feel NOT safe. JosieJoy, even though I am quite on your side, it's not sufficient to just tell people it's wrong and you're right on the debate forum. This debate really shows the difference in gun attitudes between the US and UK/Aus.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Cien
On 05/21/2011 11:43:48
Cadbury, be careful not to generalize. I'm from the U.S. (although now that I think about it, you might be too? I can't remember) and all this pro-gun rah-rah-ing does not describe my views at ALL. There's a concealed carry bill going through my state legislature right now, actually, and it's extremely unsettling to me. I think part of what makes this a difficult issue is that a lot of pro-gun people don't stop to think about how THEIR gun use affects OTHER people--yes, you have the right to carry a gun, but [b]everyone around you also has the right to feel safe in their own community[/b]. I've just...never been able to understand the idea that people are safer when there are more guns around--that equation makes no sense.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Heart
On 05/21/2011 14:51:41
Right to own and carry a firearm > "right to feel safe in your own community" See: The Constitution. You have no "right to feel safe." In fact, being that the Declaration of Independence is not a legal document in and of itself, so you don't even have the explicit right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness," were you going to take that route. (The status of the Declaration is best described as an "interpretive guide." It is an international law document, not applicable to the then-Colonies.) The Constitution is the Law of the Land. It trumps [i]everything.[/i] [b]The right of American citizens to own and carry firearms is explicitly stated in the Constitution, and therefore overrides any sketchy and legally questionable rights of citizens to "feel" a certain way.[/b] Take that, bold font! *Note the lack of the use of the word "concealed carry" here. Unconcealed carry is a right; concealed carry varies by state.
I've just...never been able to understand the idea that people are safer when there are more guns around--that equation makes no sense.
Yeah, [url=http://www.amazon.com/More-Guns-Less-Crime-Understanding/dp/0226493636]statistics[/url] [url=http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S014481889800012X]are[/url] [url=http://www.guncite.com/kleckjama01.html]a bitch[/url].
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Wicked_Elphaba
On 05/21/2011 15:26:07
[q=CienPorCientoPAZ]Cadbury, be careful not to generalize. I'm from the U.S. (although now that I think about it, you might be too? I can't remember) and all this pro-gun rah-rah-ing does not describe my views at ALL. There's a concealed carry bill going through my state legislature right now, actually, and it's extremely unsettling to me. I think part of what makes this a difficult issue is that a lot of pro-gun people don't stop to think about how THEIR gun use affects OTHER people--yes, you have the right to carry a gun, but [b]everyone around you also has the right to feel safe in their own community[/b]. I've just...never been able to understand the idea that people are safer when there are more guns around--that equation makes no sense.[/q] Ummmm .....You do realize if someone is carrying concealed you'd never know. 48 states in the US have it. So if you've been to states other than WI or IL, chances are you've encountered someone who was carrying. A few states even have open carry.
re: Are you against owning a gun or for owning a gun.
By Cien
On 05/21/2011 16:05:28
Yep, I realize that. Here's the point you failed to get from my post:
I've just...never been able to understand the idea that people are safer when there are more guns around--that equation makes no sense.
(And yes, Heart, I did see your handy little statistic mark-ups there. Good job.)

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