Japanese sensation Kumada just pulled off and executed a perfect (Pent-illusion), a five-illusion under a toss at the European Championships yesterday. Way to go Kumada!

thats incredible.

I would love to see someone execute this skill! How wonderful!

www.youtube.com . . .


amazing !

Incredible! Gymnasts can't even do 5 illusions without a baton!

Wow...impressive.

I have to say though, I'm over seeing so many triples. Even doubles are getting tiresome. Would much rather see rolls, cool catches, and big tricks as combos caught in various ways. And let's not forget routine content between the big tricks.

^Hear, hear. I'm also over triples.

The cliche holds true: What's rewarded gets repeated . . . again, again, again, again, and again.

As a gymnastic coach, I have to comment on the poor execution of these illusions! Come on coaches!

Perhaps, to better add to the discussion, you could say what corrections you would give to a student to improve and perfect their multiple illusions. I'm not sure how constructive "poor execution" is.

Well first off, the most important element in executing a "proper" illusion, is flexibility. Reaching a full split position is the goal. If you can't reach full split on the "standing" leg, you are not executing a proper illusion. So working those splits everyday is crucial.

And then there is the obvious, straight legs & pointed toes. This seems to be a problem mainly when kids are forced to do multiple illusions before they are ready.

Once you have the split mastered, start working the oversplit. One inch at a time. You'll be surprised at how quickly the flexibilty improves!

Thank you FloorXpert! I think sometimes we forget how important those splits are!

I'm finding myself with really strong thoughts on the illusion topic. I mentioned before that I'm over seeing all the triples. I feel that it ends up looking so impressive to certain judges that the rest of the routine gets lost. Even doubles are boring me. Unless you are catching that double between your toes, so what! I could get my butt out there and do a double if I tried hard enough. My point is that anyone can do them. They're not special.

I agree with others that technique is a major issue. 90% of the illusions done on the floor are UGLY! They are not done properly nor are they executed well.

I also think that they are horrible for your body. Whether they are done properly or not, it's just an unnatural movement, and the little kids are doing the damage young. And the older kids should be gentler on themselves. These girls are going to grow up and have all sorts of problems. I'm sure they will with lots of moves, but the illusion is a specail case.

I would love to see them gone completely! I think that if you take illusions out, you would be left judging a solo based on actual twirling. Look at a scoresheet - illusions aren't even on it! But technique is, so do judges actually take off for poor illusion technique or are they just wowed at a 12 year old doing a triple which may actually look like an upside down fankick?

Routine content, speed, control, rolls, low difficulty, variety - all part of a scoresheet. Question - do judges actually take points off the control score when a kid drops two doubles and a triple in her solo? Hmmm.....

Take 'em out! There's gotta be someone out there doing high level twirling without an illusion. Just curious how much variety would blossom and how exciting a routine and competition would be without them.

Perfect example...don't know if you've been reading the team thread with the Wheaton/Dynamics war, but if those two teams had no doubles or triples, I wonder what their routines would look like. The real focus would be artistry, technique, and variety, not trying to catch doubles/triples. It's nearly impossible for 8 - 12 people to do doubles in perfect unison, not to mention, the majority of them are again...UGLY! AND, most of the time, the triples are barely caught, sometimes with two hands (eh-hem, penalty) and always with bent legs! I would rather see 8 girls do a perfect 5 spin catch backhand than 8 girls doing doubles with legs that go at different angles at different speeds and the deer in the headlights look trying to catch it. And they shouldn't be getting credit for 1 - 3 people doing a triple anyway. That's just saying, oops...we can't all do them, so here ya go.

Something to think about....

My mom didn't want to see me getting hurt, so she wouldn't even LET me practice too many illusions growing up. I hurt my hip pretty badly a few years ago because I've been pushing for a good illusion for so many years. Being pushed to go upsidedown many times in a certain style of strut and being told I had to get the double because other competitors would be doing triples. Reconstructed the the opening and the coach said, "but we took the illusion out during the intro." My reply, "Why does it need to be in there? I'm sure it doesn't look all that great." It speaks volumes when an amazing judge like Mary Ann Miller (runs the strut contest at AYOP for crying out loud) writes ILLUSION on your scoresheet--because it's actually not there--and then ferociously circles it. People need to pay attention. I have no problem if they are executed WELL and illusion catches can be much trickier than doubles and triples (timing, my dear), but that proper execution takes time to develop and the move doesn't favor ALL kids.

I could see a number limit on illusions done in a routine, but I don't think it's realistic to entirely remove them. Remember they do favor some kids and some styles. As is thrown around, it's not the style but the ability within the style that counts. However, I am afraid for kids when they have up to fifteen (counted that many once) in their solo routine for the exact reason twirlinaround mentioned.

I have to agree with twirlinaround. Not only is there an excessive use of illusions, but there is a pattern of serious injury that seems to be emerging among the twirlers. I know of at least two who were scheduled for hip surgery right after AYOP. I know of at least one who had hip surgery last year right after AYOP. These are advanced twirlers who have been twirling for years and none I am referring to have even graduated HS yet!

That makes my heart sad. I've been working on my illusion for eighteen years or so. I want to master them.

Illusions are important body move in the sport. I think what twirlers and coaches forget is proper training. A series of pre-split and split exercises are extremely important. I did them every day 2xs a day to handle the demand of illusions. I do the same now instructing my students. You must promote flexibility. What you do without the baton is just as important as WITH the baton because if the body is terrible, what is the point of doing the trick if it isnt at its maximum effectiveness?

Twirling has many demands, not just standing twirling a baton. We do so much more, can do so much more. Our Art is complicated, and intricate. If it wasnt, lets all go back to parade majorettes on the street and call it a day.

NBTA did away with the gymnastics long ago because they did realize not all kids are gifted & athletic like that. I do think its fair to teach our students proper kicks, leaps, jumps, illusions, etc. as from the early days of the NBTA that was included.

I have seen coaches teach illusions with students trying to illusion over a chair. How horrible and scary for a beginner! No wonder their hips hurt and they dont want to do it. Illusions take time.

you can tell the students that haven't trained in how to do them

FYI-In gymnastics, an illusion currently has the same point value as a double full! (double back flip with a full twist) That's how difficult it is to learn and perfect! There is currently only one gymnast who performs the skill on the balance beam, and it is known as her "signature move". It requires extreme flexibility, and as I said before, you've gotta really work those splits!

Wow...impressive.

I have to say though, I'm over seeing so many triples. Even doubles are getting tiresome. Would much rather see rolls, cool catches, and big tricks as combos caught in various ways. And let's not forget routine content between the big tricks.

Perhaps, to better add to the discussion, you could say what corrections you would give to a student to improve and perfect their multiple illusions. I'm not sure how constructive "poor execution" is.


I also think that they are horrible for your body. Whether they are done properly or not, it's just an unnatural movement, and the little kids are doing the damage young. And the older kids should be gentler on themselves. These girls are going to grow up and have all sorts of problems. I'm sure they will with lots of moves, but the illusion is a specail case.

remove this post.

There was one illusion from one competitor in the USA world twirl team from 2009; you can find it on youtube. I'm sorry I do not remember which team it was, but I am certain someone on here does. I had it posted for a few minutes but then decided against putting up a link on here.