In James' kindergarten class, they have a system of "cards". Green card for no behavior problems/general class disruptions, one infraction and they turn to the blue card, another to the yellow card, and the fourth gets the red card. The fourth also gets a phone call home to their moms. Stay on the green card all day, and you get a stamp at the end of the day.

There is a little boy in James' class named Caleb. To put it mildly, Caleb hasn't taken all that kindly to the adjustment of starting kindergarten. Like, tearing the classroom apart, kind of "not taking all that kindly to the adjustment of kindergarten".

James' tells me today that on the days that Caleb stays on his green card, he gets a stamp AND a pencil.

When I pointed out that I thought that was weird, James went "Why, he's a bad kid..." and breezily went down the hall like it was no big deal.

That's an ENORMOUS deal to me! Isn't an extra reward for the "bad kid" a really, really horrible plan?! And what incentive is that giving the other kids to act right, when they see him act out and get more treats for it?!

I'm all up in arms and ready to go to the teacher over it, but I kind of just want some validation that I'm right in thinking this is bad. And it's not as if James needs another pencil in his life, that's not what I'm carrying on about. It just seems like extra rewards and praise for the bad kid, and patting the good kid on the back and going "Ok, we're cool..." is kind of incentive for the bad kid, and not a whole lot of incentive for the good kid. (And I know you could make the argument that being good comes from within and he probably doesn't need incentive, but taking that idea out of the equation...)

I don't know...I can see both sides. I understand what you're saying, that he shouldn't get extra rewards for the days he's not tearing the place apart, but at the same time, I understand what the teachers are trying to do, too. When you've got a kid who will NOT behave for anything except extra treats when he's good, then giving him extra treats when he's good is what you'll do, just to get him to stop misbehaving, you know? It's not ideal, but it might be all they can do to get him to stay in line.

I'm a teacher, so I can understand your frustration at what James has told you, but I also want to urge you to realize that there is probably another (adult) side to it that James doesn't (and shouldn't) know anything about.

Caleb's parents have (hopefully) probably talked with the teacher if he's really having that much trouble, and this may be something they've worked out together. For all you know, the parents may even be providing those pencils for the teacher to give. I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but I just think you should think about it from another perspective before you go storming in there. Really, just getting the kid to stay green all day is not only good for him, but also good for James and the other kids because the teacher can actually put more time into the other kids instead of disciplining this kid.

If you still feel like you want to talk to the teacher, go ahead, but please don't assume you know everything about the situation...as a person who's been on the receiving end of these types of misunderstandings many times, I would really appreciate the benefit of the doubt. If anything, maybe just mention that it makes James feel bad, because although I understand that Caleb may need this second reward, I dont' think the other kids should have to see it every day and know that they don't get that.

I completely see both sides, so I get why you're upset! Just treat it with care, is all I want to say. YOu never know what kind of issues that kid has. Just be glad James doesn't

^Oh no, I'd never get agressive about it. Like I said - my concern is more in line with everyone getting equal treatment, you know? It doesn't seem like it's an entirely balanced system. And you're right, there's probably alot I don't know, and what I don't know might radically change the game, but what I DO know is that the bad kid is getting treated differently, which isn't fair to anybody, my kid is there to learn, and he goes in there and does it, why is he playing second banana to a kid that can't get his act together?

(I'd probably leave that last line out of the email, or at least phrase it nicer, HAHA...I just wrote it out, and it does sound pretty agressive...)

HardestWorker wrote:

If anything, maybe just mention that it makes James feel bad, because although I understand that Caleb may need this second reward, I dont' think the other kids should have to see it every day and know that they don't get that.

This is great advice. If you calmly explain to the teacher how the other 5 year olds are viewing Caleb's extra rewards, the teacher might rethink how this is handled. While it's nice that this system is minimizing Caleb's disruption of the classroom, I am sure the teacher would want to know if one or more of the other kids is perceiving this as extra rewards for someone who often displays a lot of bad behavior.

I worked in a school last year where there was a small part of it almost segregated from the rest of the school. Those kids learnt most of their lessons through Irish.

The Irish kids (as opposed to the Irish kids who learn in English) were a lot more disruptive, there were some there that maybe wouldn't have been if they'd had more better behaved peers around. (Some classes had only 5 boys and 5 girls, or 2 boys and 16 girls, odd ratios, but numbers aren't high.)

Anyway, in this situ, I think you want a kid that isn't going to drag the others down. However that happens. James is obviously very intelligent, but others might not be, and you don't want him being teased for being the good kid that doesn't get a pencil.

The biggest point I would be making, if I were a parent... Is that I want this kid to be behaved, to my kid can learn, so I'm not opposed to the extra rewards, I'm just opposed to the other kids seeing that he gets them. (Even though I am opposed to rewards like that. But not overly, because my kid's getting rewarded with a good education for listening!)

When I pointed out that I thought that was weird, James went "Why, he's a bad kid..." and breezily went down the hall like it was no big deal.

James is a smart, wise, little boy. I'm glad it doesn't bother him, but I do understand why you think it sends the wrong message. When my oldest was in Kindergarten, this would have seemed weird to me too. Now, I realize that the kids, including James, have this all figured out. "Why? He's a bad kid!" James wouldn't want to be in the "pencil club" because he knows that means he would be one of the bad kids. And guess what? It will be a very rare day when this kid Caleb actually get's a pencil.

As the school year progresses and the other kids adjust to the additional demands of structure, discipline, and teacher's expectations, this kid Caleb is going to spend a whole lot of time in time out, missing recess, no stamps, no pencils, few friends. For whatever reason, this child is already a problem and a truck load of pencils aren't going to change it.

Hang in there. James is ok with it, and sadly, the teacher is going to become more frustrated with Caleb. It is a good sign that she is making an effort to help him adjust, but I doubt it is going to make a difference. Even if the pencil bribe work for the classroom, the bus driver, the special teachers, and the playground monitors are going to peg him the same way James did...he's a bad kid.

Keep On Dancing*

So I realize that you've already stated that you want to remove the whole argument that the good child has incentive to be good from within but when dealing with rewards for good behavior, I'm not certain that's the best idea. My guess is that the teacher is working from the viewpoint that if every child is receiving what they need/require attention wise from the teacher, they will behave appropriately. For example, James obviously behaves just fine in the classroom. He's happy to receive his stamp at the end of the day and even according to your recount of the story, he doesn't really have an issue with this child also receiving a pencil.

This other child is having a hard time adjusting to the classroom setting. Therefore, behaving all day is a more challenging task and it is likely not as easy for him as it is for James (for whatever reason). Therefore, he is provided with an additional incentive be it a pencil or some other reward. In theory, the goal would be to phase out these special priviledges so they are no longer needed.

If these rewards aren't phased out over time and after periods of repeated good behavior, I would be a little more concerned. I would also be more concerned if James was bringing this to your attention in more of a "why aren't I getting a pencil" type of manner. From what you say, James seems fine with this scenario and perhaps even realizes that his classmate requires a little additional support. Perhaps instead of encouraging the thought that his peer receives a pencil because he's bad this could be the opportunity to talk about how he needs a little extra assistance following all the rules.

Whenever I read about "bad" kids I always wonder if there is a reason why they are bad. do they have a condition that the other's don't know about, or he could be a genuine brat! lol!
I wonder what the other parent's of Kenzie's classmates think of him. He has a helper in the morning, one at lunchtime and another in the afternoon. He also has yet another woman who is with him for his first term that is from a school for autistic kids.
They all have to share a teacher and he gets four all for himself!!
His afternoon one is lovely, she rubs his back after he has storytime as it mellows him out before he has to go home.

queenie xx

If it's no big deal to James, why make it into a big deal? It might be different if he felt he was being slighted by not getting the extra reward that this other kid gets, but he obviously doesn't. He understands that this kid needs a little extra incentive to behave nicely.

Dude, she's a professional. Your kid isn't going to be emotionally traumatized because some other kid is treated according to his particular needs. Let it go.

^I understand that there's no "emotional trauma" here (and congrats on putting all that work in on shoving words into my mouth, I'm amazed they all fit!), but like I said - I think having the good kids watch the bad kids get extra special treatment on the days that they happen to not get on the table and tear the stuff out of the ceiling is sending out a really sketchy message. At no point did I say I believed that the school was inflicting emotional trauma on my kid.

I teach first grade and I totally agree that this is confusing to a young child. Teachers are constantly being pushed to give extra rewards to "bad" kids just for doing what other kids do on a daily basis. I have always disagreed with this. Good classroom management is about consistency. If one child gets a special treat for staying on green, then all must get it. It doesn't mean you have to have the same expectations for all (as someone else mentioned, there may be social/emotional or special ed issues coming into play) but you have to be consistent or the children will not see you (and your rules/policies) as fair and therefore will not buy into them.

The way I deal with this is to give a "reward time". We do not do cards in first grade but instead before lunch each day, students who have not had to write a time out note or be sent back to their desk from centers, play a five minute game. Now I do have some children who have been working really hard to try and control themselves so they earn reward time. When they finally get it, I do not give them additional rewards- the reward is they get what all the other "good" kids earn daily. For most kids this is reward enough- if you don't go around bribing with pencils/stickers, they won't expect them. For one child, I told him privately I'd call his mom during lunch and tell her he earned reward time. That was a way of giving him that extra reinforcement without being inconsistent in front of other children. There are many other ways to give special encouragement to those who struggle but I will never do it at the expense of the "good" children.

What I've seen happen in classrooms with "bad" kids who get these extra special things like pencils, is that they learn that there will always be a special treat for just them. It turns into them expecting a treat for doing what the other children do just because it's the right thing to do.

I'd ask to meet with the teacher and explain nicely that this is confusing to the students and ask what she has in place to reward all students who earn green. Sorry for the long response but this is a topic that pushes my buttons lol:)

This is exactly why I don't give my kids tangible rewards ... other than using stickers on a potty chart for potty training kids, I don't give ANY sort of reward because I don't believe that kids should be working for a reward, rather, they should be learning for the sake of learning. That's not to say I don't give them tangible things sometimes ... on a rare Friday afternoon, I might give Silly Bands or lollipops or something to the kids, but I give them to ALL the kids, regardless of their behavior.

I think it's better practice to reward children with privileges. I have a kid in my class who flies off the handle every time it's time to clean up, or when she has to come sit down for circle, or do what all the other kids are doing at a time when she doesn't feel like it - and as crazy as it makes me internally, sometimes, I DO give her "rewards" for NOT acting in that way at a time when she ordinarily would have. I might let her be the line leader, even if another child has been behaving better, or for longer, than she, because if I don't seize these opportunities, she will NEVER get a chance to be the line leader (or table setter, or whatever else) and that's not fair to her, either.

I think that if your son is well-adjusted enough to not need a pencil and a sticker as a reward for his good behavior, you should leave it alone at this time. As mentioned, it's possible that the "bad child" has some extenuating circumstances that are outside the realm of public knowledge, and for whatever reason, this tangible reward is a part of his behavior management plan - it could even be that the TEACHER doesn't even agree with it, but is trying it out after a recommendation from a therapist (this is common).

As long as your child is getting what he needs from his teacher - opportunities to learn, encouragement, comfort when he needs it, discipline when he needs it, food and clean hands and face and tied shoes, attention, and support - I don't think that you should compare what other children are getting with what he's NOT getting, because he doesn't NEED what they're getting. The philosophy of dealing with children fairly in EEC is to give every child what they need, and there may come a time where James needs something that this "bad kid" doesn't need, and at that time, he should get it, and you should absolutely advocate for him. But, I'm sure the teachers are having a hard enough time with the "bad kid", and the "bad kid" is having a hard enough time at school that the pencil is a small issue, an attempted means to an end, and if it happens to work in molding the child's behavior, it'll be taken away eventually anyways.

peace out
sh'naynay

James doesn't seem fazed by it - what's the big deal?

My take on this is that it seems in general (extrapolating to other experiences I've seen - not just this incidence in particular) that when kids are young, "fairness" is practically beaten into these kids heads by parents and outside sources. And then at a certain point in their childhood, kids start realising that life isn't fair. Seems a little confusing.

It seems that James has a great head on his shoulders - he realises that the "bad" kid gets extra rewards and that it's not fair, but then he just goes about his business... Sounds like he'll be a much better adjusted kid then the ones who throw a tantrum, yelling "it's not fair!!"

I agree. Kids should not be rewarded for bad behaviour. Give them a pat on the back or something for doing something they should be doing anyway. Reward them when they actually deserve it. This is not giving them incentive to actually be better. It's sending the wrong message to the other children.

But since james doesn't seem concerned I'd say not to worry about it. Now if he was having issues with it then I'd talk to the teacher and say she/he is setting a bad example by doing that.

kids are smart-they learn very early that there are kids who are difficult in the classroom (my dd called them the 'extra helpers' bc they actually had aides for some of these kids)and that they may get something extra-unless its a very coveted item the 'normal' kids couldn't care less-even the kindergartners. Let it be.

We had the card system at my elementary school. As a reward at the end of the day, we got to pick candy out of the jar. The troubled kid got twice the amount if they made it with a green card at the end of the day. The chances of him making it to a green card way about once every 2 weeks.

As a 8 year old, I felt sorry for the troubled kid because he only got candy twice a month, when I was able to get candy 20 times a month.

I think James is a super smart kid, so he probably understands the process of what this kid is getting an extra pencil.

After re-reading this I had a thought. When my son started school, they rewarded the "bad" kids when they did things right.
What I'm reading here is that this kid is doing whatever he wants and getting rewarded for it. Not only is it confusing to the other kids, how ever will he learn right from wrong.
It's quite normal for kids of James' age to notice the "bad" kids. When Kenzie was at playgroup a little girl turned to her dad, pointed at Kenzie and said, "Dad, he's the naughty boy!"

Queenie xx

^
"James' tells me today that on the days that Caleb stays on his green card, he gets a stamp AND a pencil."

So basically he is getting the reward for doing the RIGHT thing, not whatever he wants.

Do you know any background on this little boy at all?

Probably not.

My eldest son was that child, the one that couldn't sit still for any time at all, he has Asperger Syndrome. At kindergarten age even I didn't know he had Aspergers, I'm glad to say that the diagnosis process has improved no end in the last 20 years. I would also hope that peoples understanding of how you cope with this sort of disability would have improved along with it.

When the kid actually is able to sit down and stay there he gets a pencil for doing what he's told, he's not getting it for not doing what he's told.

Just accept the fact that all kids are different and will find different things difficult, just as James has.

This would bug me too, rewards are great at that age (I think!) but they should be the same for everyone.

If the parents were providing the pencils (or even if they weren't) they could give him his prize for the green card AFTER school? You know the teacher says to the parents at the end of the day "Little Jimmy kept his green card all day today and earned a stamp" and when they get home the parents give him his pencil for keeping his green card all day? Just an idea (I don't agree with the idea, but thought I should put it out there! lol)

I don't think he should get an extra reward at all. What happens when he starts behaving well on a regular baisis? Do they keep forking out pencils for the rest of his childhood or do they move back down to the stamp... I can just imagine the fuss little Jimmy would kick up now when he realises that he doesn't get as much for his good behaviour as the other kids.

bethnee_rose wrote:


I don't think he should get an extra reward at all. What happens when he starts behaving well on a regular baisis? Do they keep forking out pencils for the rest of his childhood or do they move back down to the stamp...

I certainly don't know anything about this particular situation, but many, many times this "bad" kid (Kindergarten vocabulary, which is how James is able to process it compared to his own obedient, "good" behavior)has multiple challenges beyond reward confusion. I NEVER knew a kindergarten kid who had exceptional behavior problems who did not have other things at play.

With mainstream education, kids with autism, Tourette syndrome (which does not always have the ticks and outbursts associated with many cases)ADD, ADHD, a whole host of other non visible neurological or psychological impairments, fetal alcohol or other syndromes stemming from their prenatal environment, or a million of situations in their young lives that make following the rules of the classroom more difficult for them than it does for most kids. Some of them are in their third foster home, some live with their grandparents because their parents are in prison or dead. Teachers are often required to be educational communists in order to manage a classroom... from each according to ability, to each according to need.

Without being given an explanation for this particular child's difficulty, James is wise enough to understand that he is glad he's not Caleb.

When the pencils are phased out, believe me, this child is going to face other hurdles that children without these invisible challenges never have to face. I think James will be fine. And I think the other well adjusted and developmentally on track kids will be ok with Caleb getting a pencil now and then (aside, in my long experience with kids, this pencil may wear out before the next one comes along.) Additionally, there will be times when the kids who excel will also be rewarded with a pencil or a sticker or something else, and Caleb and the rest of the stamp AND pencil crowd will NEVER have a chance to be included in the Mr. and Mrs. Suzy Smart Science Fair Luncheon, student of the month breakfast, or Student Ambassador field trip to town hall(or what ever it is).

Again, I think T should be very proud of James' insight and heart.

Keep On Dancing*

I think the bottom line of this is, we all realize Caleb may have problems beyond our knowledge, and we should be understanding of that. He may need extra incentives to behave, and while that may not be something you can control, it is frustrating that James sees the unfairness. I don't think it's an unreasonable request to ask that Caleb gets his reward out of the eyesight of the other kids. As a teacher, I would understand and honor that request.

I think everyone else has addressed issues of fairness/ consistency very well, but I just wanted to encourage you to speak to the teacher about it. No need to be confrontational or imply that James is upset about the situation (but based on your responses, I don't think that's a real danger anyway). But I think it's fine to say "hey, I was just wondering what your reward system is, how it's implemented, what sorts of classroom policies are enforced" etc. And then you can work in a casual question about hearing of Caleb receiving a pencil. I think most teachers now will be pleased to see parents involved with their kids' education and being on top of what goes on in school.

This story isn't entirely relevant, but bear with me until the end:

My parents grew up in India and I have no siblings, so my parents had absolutely no clue about how education in the US works. When I was in second grade, we had "science" class which covered very basic things like water cycle (it rains, water goes in the rivers, it evaporates and forms clouds, rains again). We also had a "biology" section that covered the skeletal system among other things. The teacher showed us a Halloween skeleton, explained those are bones, they're inside us and help us move around, identified the major ones like ribs and skull, and pointed out there are 206 of them. And then, for reasons I can't fathom til this day, she said something like "when you're in 6th grade you'll have to know all of them." I think it was an off-hand comment to point out that some people do know all of the bones.

Well, I always took things very literally and seriously, so I freaked out at having to memorize 206 bones and came home and told my mom. In India, there's no parent involvement in education (besides making sure the kid does his/ her homework), and you absolutely do not question anything the teacher says. So my mom decided to fix the situation by telling me that if I start now and learn a few bones at a time, I'll have them all memorized by 6th grade. She pulled out a copy of Grey's Anatomy, and I kid you not, I spent a good chunk of my summer between 2nd and 3rd grade memorizing sections of the book. I probably memorized about half of the bones that year (and I still remember most of them to this day!). If only my mom hadn't been so hesitant to contact the teacher and ask about the science curriculum in elementary school, I would have had a much more fun summer that year. (On that note, never during my education have I had to memorize all 206 bones).

My point is that asking the teacher what's going on in the class and what her policies are is perfectly fine, as long as you do it in a non-confrontational way and show that you just want to be on the same page with your child's educators. It'll avoid all sorts of misunderstandings between you, the teacher, and the child.