Suniva... it's not just the pointe shoes, these pictures are bad in so many other ways as well. Look at the second picture, for example. The girl in the middle (who is not en pointe) is in a very disconcerting sous-sous. It's disconcerting because it's so far from symmetric. Why didn't her teacher help her with the position before snapping the shutter?

Sure, maybe these kids won't go on to professional careers. In fact, the vast majority of dance students won't. And maybe they are beginners. But that doesn't mean you can't get good pictures of them. MSD is (supposed to be) a professional.

It is possible to get good pictures from beginner students who take class 1x/wk with no professional aspirations. I've seen plenty of great work in that genre. The key for anyone presenting dancers to the public is to NEVER LET THEM DO SOMETHING THEY DON'T LOOK GOOD DOING. If your dancers can't do 32 clean fouette turns --- then don't let them try on stage. It's this lack of a critical editorial eye that I find most disturbing in these photos. The teacher and photographer have failed these kids. You can't excuse it with "they're just having fun."

In the end, most of these kids will probably quit in 2-3 years, as you suggested. Because the have gotten so little back for the time and money they've put in, they will hit a wall. I really believe that engaging kids in quality training is one of the BEST ways to retain their interest.

Even recreational students should still learn proper technique.

Of course they should learn proper technique, but it doesn't mean that they are ABLE to do it perfectly.
And catching a good picture of several dancers together is very hard especially when balancing on pointe.
I agree with you all, but I think some people judge too fast.


"The key for anyone presenting dancers to the public is to NEVER LET THEM DO SOMETHING THEY DON'T LOOK GOOD DOING."

Ok, some girls would never go up on stage in that case Sorry that's hard but true, some people just don't look graceful in any way when dancing ballet, have bad feet, bad turnout, you name it. But it pleases them and their family to go on stage one time a year. Big deal. Should we keep them of stage? Not take pictures of them? Can you imagine that they are actually proud of them?

Anybody should have the opportunity to dance if they enjoy it, talented or not. You can choose to not watch and concentrate on very good dancers. No harm done. No?

"I really believe that engaging kids in quality training is one of the BEST ways to retain their interest."
Totally.

That's the feet of one of my second year pointe students (technically she's been on pointe exactly one year as of the date of that picture and starting her second year of pointe work). I took the picture to show her what I was seeing - I was telling her to turn out more in her hips and this was the before picture. I wanted her to see how both legs were not rotated evenly and that she needed to engage her glutes and get her deep rotators activated more. She's just turned 13 or is about to. Just because she's a recreational student doesn't mean she can't have good technique and use her body properly.

ETA - I should mention she's holding on the a portable barre in the center, not just balancing alone.

I don't think it's always appropriate to track kids as "pre-professional" or "recreational" at a young age. Many kids only take class once or twice a week at that age, no matter what might happen to them later in life.

Professional aspirations only become an issue at a later stage, when it's necessary to be in class 3-6 days/week in order to make progress. Even then, there are some schools that don't track, but train the kids who come 6 days/week alongside the kids who come 2.

Anybody should have the opportunity to dance if they enjoy it, talented or not. You can choose to not watch and concentrate on very good dancers. No harm done. No?

The problem here isn't lack of talented students. It's mediocre teachers. Whatever talent comes into their class, they fail to develop. Tons of ballet teachers could do a MUCH better job with these students, even just 1x/wk. Give them 1 hour and a camera, and they'll get better pictures. Give them 1 week, it will be better still. Give them a month, a year --- and the kids will look like completely different dancers.

oh my god I disagree it is definitely harm done!!! you can not just concentrate on the good ones!!! safe dance practice is essential, would you like to find out one of your students has serious knee problems or foot problems years after they have stopped dancing, because you trained them unsafely and just watched the good ones?

that is the stuppedist thing I've ever heard. I was trying to be nice but these photos put ballet training to shame and I can't believe teachers treat students like this, yes students can go on pointe at 11 doing basics and if they are exceptionally strong for their age and can work with the appropriate technique!!

people are making me angry now!

The pictures were not meant for perfection, if I wanted a professional cut picture with an advanced adult ballerina, I would have googled. The purpose of the photos is so the community, parents, and kids can see that dance doesn't always have it's serious "you have to dance and be perfect or get fired" option. Their are students at MSD who have scholarships for dance from other credited dance organizations. This was a fun project to show the community that we care about our community and everyone is included, not just the advanced dancer.

But this is also a reflection of you, your studio, your vision, and what you teach. What this screams to potential clients is that you don't care how sloppy the kids dress, you start kids on pointe shoes young (so everyone who has that dream will expect to start at 10), and its not a serious dance studio. I think there are many ways to incorporate fun pictures where dance doesn't look serious and you don't have to project a professional ballet studio...the examples I posted are all shots taken when "having fun" and weren't professionally done, but they could be used for the type of publication you are thinking of I think.

While I appreciate the request of not having the thread go into "they are too young", I do have to say that the bones in young children's feet have not ossified enough to be strong enough to support the weight on pointe at 10...and if they are starting on pointe at age 10 it is because they have incredible strength and are training A LOT more than any recreational student would be. The damages from working on pointe too early, (which is not only a question of age, but also of technical readiness), can be anywhwere from bunions to deformities of the feet, ankles, knees, and even hips. Just have to say that as a dance professional and moderator of the site.

Hey Grover (I mean imadanseur)... I LOVE your photos!

greenpumpkin wrote:



Professional aspirations only become an issue at a later stage, when it's necessary to be in class 3-6 days/week in order to make progress. Even then, there are some schools that don't track, but train the kids who come 6 days/week alongside the kids who come 2.
----
The problem here isn't lack of talented students. It's mediocre teachers. Whatever talent comes into their class, they fail to develop. Tons of ballet teachers could do a MUCH better job with these students, even just 1x/wk. Give them 1 hour and a camera, and they'll get better pictures. Give them 1 week, it will be better still. Give them a month, a year --- and the kids will look like completely different dancers.

THIS! As a young girl my parents could only afford classes once or twice a week. My first studio had a teacher that was all about getting kids on pointe asap, having fun, messing around etc...very dolly dinkle. Even though I was just a little kid and most people thought I'd never be a dancer, I was serious! After two years I changed studios and went to a school full of serious Russian Vagaonva teachers. I was older than kids in my class, was the only one who had been on pointe and I was the worst by far. I had to re-take beginning ballet. I was like a fish out of water with all these kids who had been provided with proper training- even only once or twice a week! I was so embarrassed to dance with them. I had also had dealt with injuries, had horrid turnout, arms were a mess- but I had NO idea because my old teacher had never told me! Her bad training cost me two years when I could have been making progress.

I grew up to be a professional dancer and NO one would have ever though I would from my 'dolly dinkle' ballet photos and horrid training as a child. Parents pay for their child to learn ballet. WHY that kid is learning ballet is not important. All deserve to learn proper technique for their own health and safety but also because ballet is all about proper technique! There is no point in half-assing training no matter why the child is taking class.

MSD. This is going to come off as quite rude, but I hope you can see past that and see the messages intent.

I took a look around your studio video's, photos and facebook page. I think you are overestimating how good your students are. You list the awards they have won at competition, and you are using that as a tool of accomplishment.

As a ballet teacher at a pre- professional school, I believe that competitions are getting into the " Everyone is a winner" mindset that so many other businesses are getting into. I have seen a trend of people trying to even the playing field for children, and some feel that competition is a bad thing. I have seen this in little league, swimming, ballet etc.
I would not take the awards given at competitions as a tool to gauge how good your students are.

I feel that you would benefit from a professional teacher coming in to do a workshop. We have had people from ABT, Pacific Northwest Ballet, Boston Ballet etc come and teach at our studio. Even if OUR teachers are highly qualified to teach, we all still get the benefit of watching new teachers teach.
I will warn that just because someone is a professional dancer doesn't mean they are great teachers .

( Two of our teachers danced with SAB then New York City Ballet, another one at ABT, another was a principal at Penn Ballet, then two of them danced with the SF Ballet company. Another is from Pacific Northwest Ballet, and San Jose ballet. I am personally the least "qualified" because I have only danced in a small company . These teachers aren't bad by any means, but we all benefit from the exchange of ideas.)

I wouldn't go off the awards either, I saw some of the youtube videos and to be honest, I thought they were pretty lousy. I don't care what a trophy says, I would not call those dances a success.

There are two dance schools in the town where I'm from, the one I went to, which is an RAD school, and this other one. My school focuses on technique, we're not into performing in shopping centres and going to dance competitions every month. We do classes, we do exams, and at the end of the year put on a concert for the town. As a result, while none of us are completely amazing, we dance the best that we can, with proper technique and presentation. The other school however, is always going to competitions and performing, all they're in to is showing their dancers off and winning prizes. And you know what? Their dancers are pretty average. They have horrible technique, watching their pointe dances make you fear the students will fall over, their arms look awful, and they insist on trying to do steps that are too hard for them and just look awful. The put photos in the local newspaper of their star dancers, and I look at the photos and can instantly pick out several things that are wrong with the pose the dancer has struck. It is just so obvious that they are too concerned with winning prizes and looking showy, that they don't even bother to thoroughly teach the students good technique. And all they're doing is harming the students. Is it really worth it?

So just comments about photos for a calendar - Take a look at the photos posted by Imadanseur. Now THEY show a love of dance. Action photos aren't always easy to get - shoot lots and lots of frames - but they are worth the effort. Action photos tell a story. Posed photos are too stagnant, and also open the door to critique of the dancers. The thought is, if they had the time to pose for this shot, it should be perfect.

A side note about starting point too soon: My mentor teacher - who turns 90 in a few months - was dancing on pointe at age 4! Her feet are crippled. Truly, they look almost as bad as photos I have seen of Geishas who have had their feet bound. It is so sad, but at the time, who knew! Well, now we do know and it is irresponsible to put children into pointe shoes too early. My mother was a dancer as well, and though my classmates all got pointe shoes (at about age 12, 13) I didn't go en pointe until I was almost 16. When I finally was allowed en pointe I was simply able to dance. My body was completely ready. Even though my friends had been en pointe for a number of years, I was immediately at their level and soon surpassed them. Starting too early was a setback.

So, this thread is still going? I would like to thank Suniva for understanding the point. Um, for the most part we don't take offense to the negative things that are said because as Suniva had mentioned you are not there, you do not know the background, and you're critique is off of a picture, which we had mentioned was during a rehearsal and the children that weren't rehearsing were the ones we took pictures of. During rehearsal nights, we are not strict about dress code and hair because students take other dance classes besides ballet. We see these students in the classroom and on the stage. Sometimes, they'll perform their dance perfect but then they might have an off day and it is caught on camera, nobody is perfect. Secondly, our focus is not just competitions. We compete once a year in the spring/summer. We have recreational and advanced students who compete in the division of their level, that way awards are fair. The awards that are won are based on their level of technique. The students of MSD do train with professional instructors (Dusty Button, Mary Anne Lamb, etc) when they attend conventions/workshops twice in the school year. Their are students from our school that have gotten into the vigorous performing arts public schools. It starts in elementary by audition in 4th grade, then continues thru middle school with audition and interview, and soon off to high school, which over here is the Booker T. Washington Performing Arts high school, which they have had students go off to ABA, Juilliard, Alvin Ailey, etc. I have 2 students who are already attending the middle school and 2 more who received admission into the elementary program. All 4 are attending these schools for dance major and minoring in drama or music.

(Message for GREENPUMPKIN: For you to say that the teachers of MSD have failed the students and that they will eventually give up within 2-3 years, shows little of what you know about us or our students. The kids and parents come to MSD not just because of what has been advertised but because they are experiencing it first hand to where they do not have to take our word for it, they will know. If they don't like what they see or experience then they will leave but for the most part, students from other studios have come to us because they like the training and atmosphere. Anyone can say or display anything to make it look presentable but when it comes time for the truth it will present and speak for itself. When students have left in the past, it was because we didn't teach hip hop or the parents wanted their children to be professionals over night.)

As far as technique is concerned, we teach proper technique but just because we teach it properly doesn't mean that the student will grasp it perfectly first hand, and some might not ever have perfect turn out do to bone structure. We don't turn students away or tell them they can't dance with us just because the student (child) isn't already perfect. For example, teaching first position in a beginner class age 7-10, 2-4 children might have perfect turn out (straight line), 3-4 children are average and will eventually improve their turn out from the hip, and the other 3 children won't ever have perfect turn out because they were born with inverted legs with a titled pelvis or in other words(pigeon toed with an overly arched spine, like a backwards C) or they're bow legged or knocked kneed, which means in order for them to keep straight legs in first position their heels can't touch, leaving an inch or two between the heels. Sometimes, teachers have to teach according to the dancers bone structure and body to prevent injury. I say this because we do have several students who won't ever have perfect turn out but it doesn't mean they won't succeed in dance.

I'm not sure why you continue to try to change our minds. At least in my mind, I'm comfortable with my opinion of you, and those photos. I'm sure others feel the same. If you really don't care about our opinion, you won't feel the need to try and convince us by having the last word.

Anyway, the thread was dead for almost 2 weeks...so it wasn't "still active". Every thread, no matter what the content, will die eventually.

and you're critique is off of a picture, which we had mentioned was during a rehearsal and the children that weren't rehearsing were the ones we took pictures of.

But you asked if the pictures were good to put into a calendar and people gave you reasons why, and I provided better examples of pictures that would be much better for a calendar.

You put these pictures up on a public forum for MILLIONS of people to say...this represents YOUR studio. I'm not sure why you wouldn't put your best foot forward to represent that...but whatever. Also I don't have to be there to know that a kid at 10 years old shouldn't be on pointe shoes in a recreational program. Talk to a podiatrist about when bones finally ossify. It's dangerous no matter what Christmas paper you wrap your argument in, and the bow on top won't distract others of us that are teachers and have been teaching for 2 decades like myself.

And a Merry Christmas to you, too, MSD_DanceStudio!

Hey, I like the pictures and I did visit your website and watched the videos. For the kids age and experience, I think they did well. They reminded me of myself and older sister. We both started pointe at age 10, well, she started at 9.5. (no our feet aren't crippled or deformed. We had to visit our doctor before hand and he said it was ok.) People use to tell my sister that she would never become a professional ballet dancer because she didn't focus on just ballet and us starting pointe young will end our career. Now, my sis is a company dancer with Ballet Austin and I'm a dance instructor/owner. Back then we only took 6 hours a wk of dance at that age but only 2.5- 3 hours were dedicated to ballet, while the rest was for tap, jazz and lyrical. We competed too. I think if it wasn't for competitions then we would have never known how good we were or if we were even improving. (By the way, Showstoppers is a very good competition organization, they are highly credited for their judges, so good choice) By age 13, we accumulated more hours of dance by taking 9 to 12 hours and our dancing only improved. We won awards but the real reward was getting to look back at where we came from to what we look like now.

MSD, I personally think that you are doing a good job with your studio. I get what you were trying to do and put out there. As a teacher, you shouldn't feed into what everybody says because they're just opinions and not everyone is going to agree. Dance is just like being raised in a family. Every family has different rules that they were taught to which they will follow making other peoples opinions or choices wrong or disagreeable.
Just a little advice: If I were you, I wouldn't explain anything at all because only you and your teachers know exactly what your trying to accomplish. My teacher Madame Ingrid told me and my sister, only you can see your vision, so why explain something to others which is invisible to their eye. Happy Christmas

I will risk opening my big mouth again. Why? Not to convince MSD (I have no illusions here). But rather, to add to a conversation that might be useful to aspiring students or parents.

MSD seems to be setting up a dichotemy beteween high-quality dancing and a friendly, supportive atmosphere. I have no trouble believing that MSD is a friendly, supportive atmosphere that parents and students enjoy.

But someone looking at these photos and videos can only conclude that good dancing and friendly environment can't both be had. So aspiring dancers and parents who want to learn how to dance well will feel they have to put up with all the ballet school nuttiness we've heard about (just look at some of the incredibly insecure posts on this board from kids as young as 13 years old). Either that, or they will give up on dance altogether.

We have created a school that is open to everyone, has a warm and supportive environment emphasizing positive body image, and teaches students with the highest standards of excellence. The MSD's of the world don't do us any favors. They just make it harder for others to believe that we exist, and that we achieve what we achieve. And they re-inforce the belief that quality dance academy training needs to be potentially psychologically damaging.

Many, many things are wrong with these pictures. But let me be specific about just one of them. Look at the girl in the center in the scond picture. She's not en pointe, which eliminates that whole controversy. Unfortunately, it's still a mediocre picture (not counting the other two girls). Why? Because she as so fully failed to achieve symmetry in sous-sous that the picture is painful to look at. The asymmetry goes throughout --- from legs to hips to her raised right shoulder. Not to mention the arms are way too high.

Why do I bring this up? Because the "excuses" for bad pictures that MSD gives are really poor excuses. You don't need "perfect" turnout or special body proportions to put your body in a symmetrical position, or to fix your arms. Not to mention the turn-out. It's not 180 degrees, it's not 135 degrees. It's not even 90 degrees (which pretty much ANYONE is capable of, even with little training). Far from it! This kid is turned out no more than 5 DEGREES!

This picture is not the result of a "less-than-ideal" body, it is the result of mediocre teaching/coaching. You do your students no favors when you blame their bodies for photos like this. It has everything to do with your teaching, and nothing to do with their bodies.

the other 3 children won't ever have perfect turn out because they were born with inverted legs with a titled pelvis or in other words(pigeon toed with an overly arched spine, like a backwards C) or they're bow legged or knocked kneed, which means in order for them to keep straight legs in first position their heels can't touch, leaving an inch or two between the heels.

So what? Tilted pelvises are a normal part of human anatomy and pedestrian movement. Sway backs are normal for young children. My legs are hyper-extended too, which means my heels don't touch in first position. The issues brought up here are incredibly common. They can almost always be overcome through strengthening of the core and careful work. Not at all an excuse for such poor photos. And I hope that aspiring dancers don't read this thread and think that just because they have a sway back or hyperextended legs means that they are destined to look like the kids in these photos. Far from it.

Um, for the most part we don't take offense to the negative things that are said because as Suniva had mentioned you are not there, you do not know the background, and you're critique is off of a picture, which we had mentioned was during a rehearsal and the children that weren't rehearsing were the ones we took pictures of

...except that I did look at your website and a large number of of pictures and videos posted on-line by MSD, including PERFORMANCE videos. And in those photos and videos, I see more of the same. You have provided the world with more than enough information to come to informed conclusions about your studio.

Once the dance performance is over, photos and vidoes are one of the few tangible artifacts you have left from the experience. You discount their importance at your own peril. To blithely take rehearsal photos, in random outfits, and then send them around to represent your school? It seems to be like a form of lunacy.

but when it comes time for the truth it will present and speak for itself.

Yes, I think the truth has spoken for itself already. Through dozens of photos and videos, many of them from performances.

I have 2 students who are already attending the middle school and 2 more who received admission into the elementary program. All 4 are attending these schools for dance major and minoring in drama or music.

...just because you taught a student who later went on to a professional career does NOT mean you did well for that student. I danced at a certain studio for many years as a child, and I liked it and the teacher and everything. And eventually, I had a professional dance career. But that was IN SPITE of my early training, not BECAUSE of it. I had to re-train as an adult, and was lucky to have had a professional career at that point. My childhood teacher was a dear old lady, but I have to be objective about what the experience did and did not do for me.

Anyone can say or display anything to make it look presentable

Presentation is incredibly important in art. The act of putting a frame around a canvas and hanging it in a gallery is an important part of preparing a meaningful experience for the art-going public. Same thing in performing arts, presentation a significant part of the package. Just because your students CAN do something well means nothing if you they don't ACTUALLY do it well when it counts --- on stage or in front of a camera. If you teach dance steps but give it bad presentation, you are only doing half your job as a teacher and director.

When students have left in the past, it was because we didn't teach hip hop or the parents wanted their children to be professionals over night.

I think this says a lot about this dance community. There's nothing wrong with hip-hop dance. But based on expereince, I would not expect students in that mindset to be worried about the lack of quality ballet training that is evident here.

The frustrating thing that MSD and now apparently Angelita2004 are not understanding from the critiques is that no one is saying these students should be perfect at doing a front attitude or whatever en pointe. What is being said is that if you want to advertise your studio in a better way, pose them in a way that is flattering to them. The students don't have to have perfect turnout or feet, and they don't have to be perfect! See ya'll we all agree on that point! What has been advised is to dress the children in flattering attire, find a good backdrop/lighting, and pose the dancers in something that they are comfortable with. When they grow up they will appreciate that you had them pose in first position with pretty arms rather than photographing them as they are falling off point. Dancers don't start off perfect, they have to learn, this is very obvious, so don't photo them while doing something they have not completely learned yet. This should be common sense, it is like if someone wanted to photo me doing a backcatch, it wouldn't be very good advertisement.

Angelita...you know what I find amazing? You haven't posted on the forum since 2007. Now suddenly you come back to post JUST on this thread. Even more interesting is that you posted these long ago...basically expressing concern for kids starting on pointe shoes too early. Now you have changed your tune? You want stories about people's feet being crippled and damaged from pointe shoes? I can provide that evidence REALLY easily. It's documented, there are published medical studies about it. It's not a myth.

www.dance.net . . .

www.dance.net . . .

www.dance.net . . .

We both started pointe at age 10, well, she started at 9.5. (no our feet aren't crippled or deformed. We had to visit our doctor before hand and he said it was ok.)

Really because years ago you said you started when you were 11:

www.dance.net . . .


I don't know...something smells a little fishy! To suddenly come in and come to the defense of this studio owner...something just isn't adding up for me, unless you know the OP or you are the OP. Call me crazy.

Some examples/ideas of poses and photography that would be more appropriate for your project.

Picture 1: 6 yr old student takes class 45mins/week
Picture 2 & 3: 9-10 yr old students take class twice/week, 3 hrs total
Picture 4, 5, 6: 11-13 yr old students, take class 3 times/week for 4.5 hrs total (none are on pointe, yet).
Picture 7: snap shot taken during rehearsal, 13 yr old rec students who dance twice/week for a total of 3 hrs.

Angelita2004 wrote:

Now, my sis is a company dancer with Ballet Austin

Oh, really? I can't fathom who. Judging from your picture on your profile, there's no one who looks anything like you. I hate to say but BA is predominately white right now and the only black dancer is male. The only female dancers hailing from your area, or really Texas in general is Oren Porterfield and she looks nothing like your picture (the only other female dancer from Texas is Aara Krumpe and she hails from Corpus Christie), so who exactly is your sister that is a company dancer with Ballet Austin? I'd love to know. Maybe I'll watch for her in the spring.

Oh, and feel free to pm me your answer. I can either ask one of my friends who teaches th ere, or I can ask a friend who retired from the company a few years ago but who is still involved with them, or I can go down there myself and ask in person to corroborate your reply. Or maybe I'll grab my program I left in the car and see if I missed anyone. I'm dying to know. Austin is an extremely close knit dance community; everyone knows everyone here.

Angelita2004 has posted three pictures, of at least two different people. Maybe none of them are her. Or maybe her family was involved in adoption.

All women have a tilt to their pelvis, it all a case of controlling that pelvic tilt and building up the muscles to do what you want them to do, if the pelvic tilt is allowed to prevail then of course there will be a medial rotation through the femurs.

As for the heels not being together in 1st even a bow legged dancer will be able to get their heels together, they won't be able to get their knees together, ever. What you're describing is a hyper extension of the knees and this has to be controlled, the dancer has to be made to get the heels together and control the movement at the knee using the Vasti muscles to pull the kneecap up the leg. (these are one of your quad muscles)

None of your dancers are using their Vasti in the photos you've posted, even the ones that are on pointe and that is dangerous. I'm not even going to go down the line of ab and lower back muscles, it would take too long here, even in my brief way of writing.

The evidence is all there in your own pictures.