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Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By DefyingGravityPremium member Comments: 5232, member since Sun Jan 19, 2003
On Tue Nov 15, 2011 04:17 PM

From: news.yahoo.com . . .

I know there are a number of mothers on DDN who practice co-sleeping and/or advocate for co-sleeping. This article compares co-sleeping with your baby to allowing your child to play with large knives. Should co-sleeping be allowed and advocated for? Should it be outlawed? Does education about SIDS need to be more widely available? I'm not sure where to go with this, but it could be a good debate if it goes in the right direction...

As reported in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, the campaign, unveiled last Wednesday, includes two posters of a baby lying in a bed next to a large knife. In one, the baby is white; in the other, the baby is black. “YOUR BABY SLEEPING NEXT TO YOU CAN BE JUST AS DANGEROUS,” the copy blares.

The second-leading cause of infant mortality in Milwaukee is SIDS, or sudden infant death syndrome, which often results from ”unsafe sleep,” according to the health department’s website. A form of “unsafe sleep” is bed-sharing with parents.

“Is it shocking? Is it provocative?” asked Bevan Baker, the city’s commissioner of health, according to the Journal Sentinel. ”Yes. But what is even more shocking and provocative is that 30 developed and underdeveloped countries have better [infant death] rates than Milwaukee.”

The Journal Sentinel said Milwaukee had an “infant mortality crisis.” Milwaukee’s infant mortality rate in 2009 was 10.4 deaths for every 1,000 live births, according to the city’s health department. As noteworthy as this overall rate is the racial breakdown: For white babies, the rate was 5.4; for blacks, 14.1, the JS said.

The city has set a goal of reducing the infant mortality rate for blacks by 15 percent, and the overall rate by 10 percent by 2017, the JS said.

“Shame on Milwaukee Co-Sleeping Ads” was the title of Danielle625's post on Baby’s First Year, a blog on the parenting website Babble. She co-slept with her three children and said co-sleeping — when “done safely” — was harmless, even beneficial, citing a page on the prominent parenting website Ask Dr. Sears.

A commenter on the post wrote: “As a Milwaukee resident and co-sleeper, I am hardly fazed by these ads. Milwaukee has an extremely high infant mortality rate and an alarming African American infant mortality rate. Unsafe sleeping conditions have been cited as a contributing factor to that rate.”

Raquel Filmanowicz, communications officer for the Milwaukee Health Department, said the city ran similarly provocative ads a year and a half ago, and received an overwhelmingly positive response. All ads follow up on the initial shock they may cause by offering a phone number for parents to call to receive a free Pack ‘N Play, a collapsible crib, she said.

“I’ll take some heat,” Mayor Tom Barrett told ABC News. ”Some ZIP codes in Milwaukee have infant mortality rates higher than Third World countries. That’s unacceptable.”

“If the ads make some people uncomfortable, I guarantee it’s a lot less uncomfortable than having another baby die from co-sleeping,” a cause of death that is “so preventable,” he added.

95 Replies to Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife

re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By Nyssasisticmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 3460, member since Sat Sep 20, 2003
On Tue Nov 15, 2011 04:25 PM
SIDS can be caused by a number of things, not only co-sleeping. Have they looked into the baby's diet? (or mom's diet if she's nursing?) Amount of smoking done in the home? SIDS is called such because there ISN'T a definite cause of the baby's death.

I've never been a HUGE co-sleeping advocate even though I co-slept with both children. I feel it really depends on the parent's sleeping habits as well as the baby's, and that's going to differ so widely from family to family that saying co-sleeping is dangerous or beneficial across the board just wouldn't be accurate.
re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 11510, member since Thu Dec 16, 2004
On Tue Nov 15, 2011 04:32 PM
saying co-sleeping is dangerous or beneficial across the board just wouldn't be accurate
Please elaborate so I can explain how wrong you are and make fun of you for it.
re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By Nyssasisticmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 3460, member since Sat Sep 20, 2003
On Tue Nov 15, 2011 05:06 PM
I wrote:

I feel it really depends on the parent's sleeping habits as well as the baby's, and that's going to differ so widely from family to family


I swear you've GOT to take some reading comprehension classes sometime soon.
re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By Kekoamember has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 8863, member since Sat Jul 19, 2003
On Tue Nov 15, 2011 05:10 PM
I think it's absolutely ridiculous. Safety precautions must be taken regardless of whether you co-sleep or crib sleep. Comments on several of the articles suggest that Milwaukee's co-sleeping deaths are the result of poor, drug-addicted parents. If that's true, I highly doubt that a parent who is strung out on meth is going to buy a safe crib and use it properly.

Not to mention, how on earth could co-sleeping possibly be made illegal or "not allowed"? How would they even monitor that? If an accident DID happen, it would make parents less likely to go to the hospital out of fear that they'd get in trouble.

Then again, I suppose I'm biased. I grew up in a co-sleeping family and don't have enough positive things to say about it...I'd never be able to do it another way when I have kids.

Cute picture of me as a two day old baby for awww sake.

Image hotlink - 'https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/76067_174447879236449_100000137157033_641710_3081464_n.jpg'
re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 11510, member since Thu Dec 16, 2004
On Tue Nov 15, 2011 05:33 PM
Nyssasistic wrote:

I wrote:

I feel it really depends on the parent's sleeping habits as well as the baby's, and that's going to differ so widely from family to family


I swear you've GOT to take some reading comprehension classes sometime soon.
Ha, my reading comprehension is great. Your understanding of science and statistics on the other hand...
re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By Cienmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 6041, member since Tue Dec 20, 2005
On Tue Nov 15, 2011 06:24 PM
Edited by CienPorCientoPAZ (147923) on 2011-11-15 18:24:45
I'm ashamed that a city in my state put these ads out, and I'm really disappointed in Tom Barrett for standing wholeheartedly behind them. I voted for him in the gubernatorial election, and I really really like him as a politician. This just makes me sort of sad. Like Kayla mentioned, there's no way to monitor a no-co-sleeping policy, and a policy like that would only make parents LESS inclined to go to the hospital if something happens, for fear of being "found out" as co-sleepers.

Honestly, I think we need to be looking instead at the structural problems in Milwaukee that might cause higher death rates for black babies than for white ones. I think they're a little too quick to blame it ALL on SIDS, and ALL on co-sleeping, when there's probably a lot more going on that they'd rather not address.
re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By Kekoamember has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 8863, member since Sat Jul 19, 2003
On Tue Nov 15, 2011 06:43 PM
Also, suffocation and SIDS are NOT the same thing. If you're high and cover your baby's head with a blanket and they die, they did not die from co-sleeping. If someone cannot be trusted to properly co-sleep (which is very easy, as humans have been doing it for our entire existence, to the best of our knowledge), how can we trust them to safely use a crib?
re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 11510, member since Thu Dec 16, 2004
On Tue Nov 15, 2011 07:38 PM
humans have been doing it for our entire existence, to the best of our knowledge
This is exactly the kind of anti-rational argument I was talking about. It's why women can't be scientists. Anyway, I'm not sure it's even true. Where did you get this info? And for the record, we also crapped in a hole for our entire existence. Should we keep doing that too? Drilling holes in our heads to let out the demons - VERY popular throughout history. We should do that too, right?

Just so I'm clear, I don't have an opinion about this issue either way. I'm sure it has some benefits AND some risks. But the data should be evaluated rationally. Saying you're personally exempt from science or saying results are invalid because we've never done it that way - that's irrational.
re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By Nyssasisticmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 3460, member since Sat Sep 20, 2003
On Tue Nov 15, 2011 07:47 PM
There's a reason I started that sentence out with "I feel"- I'm obviously not doing anything except stating my own personal opinions.

So if you have absolutely nothing to add to the argument (which you haven't in the 3 replies you've done) then why are you even bothering replying? Isn't there something in the TOS about trolling?
re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 11510, member since Thu Dec 16, 2004
On Tue Nov 15, 2011 07:55 PM
Yeah, we don't need statistics or science when we have FEELINGS. Do you know what anti-rational means? Because that's it.

Oh, and feel free to mod my comments if you really think I haven't contributed anything. I know nothing I write could POSSIBLY be as meaningful as YOUR FEELINGS, but I'm on topic.
re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By Moonlitefairy06member has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 6829, member since Fri Apr 16, 2004
On Tue Nov 15, 2011 08:00 PM
Stories of co-sleeping deaths have been around for thousands of years too. Remember the story of Solomon who had decide who was the mother of the living baby and who was the mother of the dead baby? The dead baby was said to be smothered by co sleeping. en.wikipedia.org . . . Now whether you are religious or not, or believe that this exact scenario actually happened, I don't think matters. We know how old the bible is, and for someone to write about a co sleeping death in the Bible, shows that it was something that probably happened frequently for it be used as an example of a how a baby died.

Now with that said, people talk about "proper co-sleeping" and "taking pre-cautions" and that kind of stuff. What exactly does that entail? Not sleeping with pillows or blankets in the bed? Having an extremely large bed so the baby has lots of room? Waking up every hour to check on the baby? When I was little I liked sleeping in my parents bed. Whenever my mom brought me in the bed my dad would leave and go to the guest bedroom because he was afraid. When I got older and would climb into their bed myself, I was actually afraid of him and would put my hand on his face to make sure he knew I was there and not to roll over.
re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By Kekoamember has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 8863, member since Sat Jul 19, 2003
On Tue Nov 15, 2011 08:18 PM
Edited by Kekoa (69553) on 2011-11-15 20:20:42
panic wrote:

humans have been doing it for our entire existence, to the best of our knowledge
This is exactly the kind of anti-rational argument I was talking about. It's why women can't be scientists. Anyway, I'm not sure it's even true. Where did you get this info? And for the record, we also crapped in a hole for our entire existence. Should we keep doing that too? Drilling holes in our heads to let out the demons - VERY popular throughout history. We should do that too, right?

Just so I'm clear, I don't have an opinion about this issue either way. I'm sure it has some benefits AND some risks. But the data should be evaluated rationally. Saying you're personally exempt from science or saying results are invalid because we've never done it that way - that's irrational.


My only reason for adding that (it was discussed in the family structure chapters of my cultural anthropology book, I'll gladly cite it when I go home next week if you care that deeply) was to point out how easy it is to co-sleep safely. If primitive people managed to do it and not kill a good deal of their babies, surely we modern humans can manage to do it in a safe fashion. In addition, the majority of non-human primates sleep in direct contact with their babies so that they can nurse on demand. That clearly isn't any sort of definitive proof that that's what humans inherently do, just something to consider as the needs of our young (extended infancy and childhood that requires longer parental care, fast metabolism that requires nursing every few hours, high vulnerability to prey) aren't all that different from our cousins.

Moonlite, safe co-sleeping is very easy. No heavy quilts or blankets, no pillows near the baby's head, no overly soft mattresses and do not co-sleep if you are on medications that make you drowsy, have a sleep disorder or are drinking. There are strict guidelines to follow for cribs as well; no dropsides, no bedding other than a fitted sheet, no bumpers (some experts argue that the mesh ones are fine), no stuffed animals, no toys, no pillows, no bottles. As for whether or not co-sleeping deaths have occurred, of course they have. Like Panic said, our ancestors didn't always use common sense. However, done safely, co-sleeping is as safe or safer than crib sleeping. Here is a good article discussing the experience of Dr. Sears, it includes a link to a SIDS study.
re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 11510, member since Thu Dec 16, 2004
On Tue Nov 15, 2011 08:31 PM
If primitive people managed to do it and not kill a good deal of their babies, surely we modern humans can manage to do it in a safe fashion.
Seriously? How many dead babies is reasonable in your opinion?

. In addition, the majority of non-human primates sleep in direct contact with their babies so that they can nurse on demand.
The majority of non-human primates have babies that cling to their fur while they sleep in trees. I don't see how that's relevant.

That author doesn't provide anything to support his opinions. Does anyone know of any actual studies on this topic? Because it seems WAY too important to rely solely on feelings. Where did Milwaukee get it's data? I've looked, but I haven't been able to find anything.

Also, I don't understand how this is related to SIDS. At this point, nobody knows what causes SIDS, and I thought it occurred primarily in cribs (hence the original name - crib death). Can anyone clarify?
re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By Kekoamember has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 8863, member since Sat Jul 19, 2003
On Tue Nov 15, 2011 08:46 PM
Edited by Kekoa (69553) on 2011-11-15 20:52:45
panic wrote:

If primitive people managed to do it and not kill a good deal of their babies, surely we modern humans can manage to do it in a safe fashion.
Seriously? How many dead babies is reasonable in your opinion?


Irrelevant. The point I was making is that while primitive, earlier humans weren't complete idiots. If half the village was rolling over onto their babies and crushing them, we can draw the reasonable assumption that they would have ceased the practice. In addition, the broader point I was making is that we know, for certain, that safe co-sleeping is just that...safe and beneficial in reducing SIDS risk. Therefore, even if we could definitively conclude that a high percentage of early human babies were dying due to suffocation from co-sleeping, that clearly isn't a problem today when proper safety guidelines are used.

. In addition, the majority of non-human primates sleep in direct contact with their babies so that they can nurse on demand.
The majority of non-human primates have babies that cling to their fur while they sleep in trees. I don't see how that's relevant.


It's relevant because they are our closest living relatives and our infants share a lot of similarities.

That author doesn't provide anything to support his opinions. Does anyone know of any actual studies on this topic? Because it seems WAY too important to rely solely on feelings. Where did Milwaukee get it's data? I've looked, but I haven't been able to find anything.


I haven't been able to find much on Milwaukee, only comments under the ad articles from people in Milwaukee, which I take with a grain of salt. Here is a more detailed article on co-sleeping and what the studies show.

Also, I don't understand how this is related to SIDS. At this point, nobody knows what causes SIDS, and I thought it occurred primarily in cribs (hence the original name - crib death). Can anyone clarify?


Because people, even medical professionals, lump many things in with SIDS, even if the death is explained (as in suffocation, which I mentioned earlier).
re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By Cienmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 6041, member since Tue Dec 20, 2005
On Tue Nov 15, 2011 08:53 PM
Edited by CienPorCientoPAZ (147923) on 2011-11-15 20:54:30
^^
The article in the OP wrote:

The second-leading cause of infant mortality in Milwaukee is SIDS, or sudden infant death syndrome, which often results from ”unsafe sleep,” according to the health department’s website. A form of “unsafe sleep” is bed-sharing with parents.


And the health department's page on infant mortality doesn't say much more:
About 10-15% of Milwaukee’s infant deaths are attributable to a combination of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS)...and unsafe sleep. Of these deaths, the majority died in an unsafe sleep environment.

So they don't really explain the connection they're trying to make between SIDS and "unsafe sleep."

I'm guessing they mean that "unsafe sleep" is a form of SIDS, or a cause of SIDS? But I was also under the impression that SIDS didn't really have an identifiable cause, and that's why they call it Sudden Infant Death Syndrome.
re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By tumblebugPremium member Comments: 10099, member since Fri Mar 29, 2002
On Tue Nov 15, 2011 08:56 PM
My SIL's best friend's baby died from co-sleeping in the hospital, or so they said. Mom was nursing her, fell asleep, rolled over on top of baby and smothered her.

I still feel co-sleeping can be done safely. My daughter slept in a crib up against my bed for the first couple months but then I switched to co-sleeping and it was what worked best for us. My daughter is 8 years old and we still co-sleep.
re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 11510, member since Thu Dec 16, 2004
On Tue Nov 15, 2011 09:14 PM
Irrelevant. The point I was making is that while primitive, earlier humans weren't complete idiots. If half the village was rolling over onto their babies and crushing them, we can draw the reasonable assumption that they would have ceased the practice. In addition, the broader point I was making is that we know, for certain, that safe co-sleeping is just that...safe and beneficial in reducing SIDS risk. Therefore, even if we could definitively conclude that a high percentage of early human babies were dying due to suffocation from co-sleeping, that clearly isn't a problem today when proper safety guidelines are used.
You have GOT to be kidding. People used to cut holes in skulls to let the demons out since prehistory. Bloodletting was common until about a hundred years ago. The MOST COMMON form of medical treatment was PRAYER, CHARMS, AND SPELLS! Just because we've always done something does NOT mean it's the best way. We've done some INCREDIBLY harmful things throughout our history. A lot of those practices have stopped because of modern science. Your argument that we should do it because we always HAVE done it is anti-rational. It is not a valid argument IMO. And you're drawing "conclusions" without having any data. That's messed up. You say it's clearly not a problem, but BASED ON WHAT? Feelings again? pfft.

It's relevant because they are our closest living relatives and our infants share a lot of similarities.
I would argue it's IRRELEVANT because we also have a lot of dissimilarities (see my last post). Lemurs are non-human primates. Do you know what a lemur is? Even if you only count non-human APES (which is probably what you meant to say), we are morphologically and socially unique in MANY, MANY ways. Saying we should sleep with our babies because chimpanzees do is preposterous. Non-human ape babies are also WAY more precocial than human babies. Ape babies can cling, climb, and move out of the way from birth. Obviously, human babies are incapable for many months.
re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By tumblebugPremium member Comments: 10099, member since Fri Mar 29, 2002
On Tue Nov 15, 2011 09:24 PM
Do you know what a lemur is?


It's only the coolest animal ever!!! I took these pics at the zoo and the first lemur is swinging and he was watching me and he was so cute and I wanted to smuggle him out in my coat. Then the 2nd one was worshiping the sun and meditating but he talked to me too. He was soooo cute!!!!
re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By Kekoamember has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 8863, member since Sat Jul 19, 2003
On Tue Nov 15, 2011 09:24 PM
Edited by Kekoa (69553) on 2011-11-15 21:26:37
I'm not quite sure how you want me to respond when you take one portion of what I say and use it completely out of context? I have no interest in going around in circles, which clearly is what will keep happening. I never said we should co-sleep because it's what has always been done. I pointed out that to the best of our knowledge, we have almost always co-slept and modern science fully supports safe co-sleeping. It was an observation, not a "feeling." As for the non-human primate comment (yes, I was referring to apes), OF COURSE there are massive differences between us and them! Pointing out that our babies share similarities to theirs was food for thought, as I stated, not me saying we were totally the same and should live just like them. Another observation.

Anyhow, here's my favorite quote that's come out of this whole thing...

"PLEASE do not sleep with babies who have giant knives. As shown in the photo, they WILL kill you so they can have the bed all to themselves."
re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 11510, member since Thu Dec 16, 2004
On Tue Nov 15, 2011 09:46 PM
modern science fully supports safe co-sleeping.
I have asked for a reference like FIVE THOUSAND TIMES already. Where are you getting this information? That one article your provided is not science. It's one doctor's opinion. If you know of any actual science on this topic, I'd love to see it.
re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By Kekoamember has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 8863, member since Sat Jul 19, 2003
On Tue Nov 15, 2011 09:59 PM
panic wrote:

modern science fully supports safe co-sleeping.
I have asked for a reference like FIVE THOUSAND TIMES already. Where are you getting this information? That one article your provided is not science. It's one doctor's opinion. If you know of any actual science on this topic, I'd love to see it.


Did you read the second article I posted? Dr. Sears delved into the statistics a bit more than the first article. In the very first one, there was a link to an in-depth scientific study but now it's showing that the page is missing. My apologies.

Here is a nice overview of the safety and benefits of co-sleeping with almost a hundred studies and books cited.
re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By Triskitmember has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 5126, member since Mon Jul 22, 2002
On Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:12 PM
Edited by Triskit (33746) on 2011-11-15 23:19:58 adding links with medical studies before I get made fun of
death by suffocation is not SIDS. Unplanned co-sleeping is dangerous, co-sleeping while under the influence of drugs or alcohol, smokers and obese people, a soft mattress and too many pillows on the bed is dangerous.

Also the term co-sleeping simply means having the baby in the same room, which actually lowers the rates of infant deaths during sleep.

Co-sleeping is practiced all over the world and in many countries where co-sleeping is the norm SIDS is much less common then in the US.

cosleeping.nd.edu

www.bmj.com . . .

adc.bmj.com . . .

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov . . .

www.naturalchild.org . . .
re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By ChristinePremium member Comments: 6118, member since Wed Feb 04, 2009
On Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:28 PM
It's too bad this discussion is so full of bad science.

To start with, I don't know how many babies actually sleep with butcher knives, therefore I'm not sure how the "statistics" can be compared.

As far as SIDS goes, there isn't any agreement about what exactly causes SIDS and if it can be prevented. The fear of infants being at risk of death or injury while sleeping in adult beds with adults is not only about SIDS.
www.cpsc.gov . . .
Our doctors were really against it, and as tired as I ever was, I was afraid of hurting the baby if we slept in my bed so I would always get out of bed and nurse them in the rocking chair, then put them in their cribs.

Years later I knew people who were big advocates of, The Family Bed Image hotlink - 'http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GR0VGT6ZL._SL500_AA300_.jpg'

Also bad science...my friends didn't kill their kids by sleeping with them.

I don't know what I think about this. I do know, however, that there is no confusion on my part about putting any knives in any bed in this house, crib or otherwise. Same for screwdrivers or power tools.

I'm not sure if this ad is an insult to the intelligence of the public, or a shocking revelation about the intelligence of the public service agencies.

Keep On Dancing*
re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 11510, member since Thu Dec 16, 2004
On Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:34 PM
Kekoa, have you actually read that article?
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