For a little comedy relief, my favorite blogger The Bloggess writes a little lesson for us all.

She had a good point when it comes to co-sleeping, babies poop the bed =P

'Depending on the level of sleep, there might be some sense of "awareness" during the light stages. But definitely not during REM sleep. (Or, well, at least as "definitely" as science can be at the moment.) Your brain literally thinks you're somewhere else!'

Actually during REM sleep you are effectively paralysed- your motor neurones are not stimulated due to the downregulation of certain neurotransmitters so you certainly will not be rolling around in this stage of sleep (unless you have a sleep disorder), so I'm confused as to why you mentioned it? REM is the stage of sleep in which we dream, so this system is designed to keep us safe from any damage we may incur if we tried to act out dreams. The danger in co-sleeping is in non-REM stages of sleep, which make up 75%ish of an adults sleep cycle.

I'm also not sure what you mean when you say the brain thinks it's somewhere else. An EEG of REM sleep is actually very similar to an EEG of an awake brain, much more similar than every other stage of sleep anyway.
/hijack

I don't really have much to add in terms of co-sleeping other than that I think this advert is ridiculously sensationalist, without *actually* spelling out what the specific dangers are, or any evidence to back up the claims. I think that if done safely co-sleeping is a good option and probably helps bonding between parent and child.

On the subject of sleep and babies and REM, did you know that babies spend the vast majority (like, 80%)of their sleep in the REM stage, i.e. dreaming. I wonder what they're dreaming about so much....

^ Lol, I believe that. There is nothing sweeter or more moving than watching a baby in the midst of a dream. Their little expressions and smiles are just precious!

kk~

Bridgetbee wrote:

'Depending on the level of sleep, there might be some sense of "awareness" during the light stages. But definitely not during REM sleep. (Or, well, at least as "definitely" as science can be at the moment.) Your brain literally thinks you're somewhere else!'

Actually during REM sleep you are effectively paralysed- your motor neurones are not stimulated due to the downregulation of certain neurotransmitters so you certainly will not be rolling around in this stage of sleep (unless you have a sleep disorder), so I'm confused as to why you mentioned it?

Because if you are on top of something, you aren't moving.

I'm also not sure what you mean when you say the brain thinks it's somewhere else. An EEG of REM sleep is actually very similar to an EEG of an awake brain, much more similar than every other stage of sleep anyway.

Yes... because you're dreaming. It thinks you're literally in the dream, hence the areas of the brain involving sight, sound, smell, balance etc. are activated. You are receiving very little imput from your actual surroundings.

I'm one of those evil co sleepers.

But you know what, after the other night I had with my daughter I'M GLAD we do!

Long story short.

M apparently is a very sound sleeper.....apparently so much so that when she started to vomit the other night she did NOT wake up!
THANK GOD SHE WAS RIGHT NEXT TO ME AND I HEARD HER! (Even with me being sound asleep!) I had to forcefully wake her and sit her up so she didn't choke!

It really scares me to think what might have happened if she slept by herself in her room, in her bed. I'm not sure I would have heard her over a baby monitor.

I am finding this discussion fascinating, I didn't even know people did this co-sleeping thing. I always thought it was the norm for babies to sleep in cribs.

I haven't slept with my baby in bed,but I did on the couch when he was too little to roll off me. There were a few weeks in there when his sleeping on my chest was the only way both of us slept.

Even though I never breast fed in bed until recently (and only morning feedings now), I would also wake up when he was small and be convinced that he was in the bed and I'd rolled over onto him. It was the most terrifying feeling in the world.

I don't have a problem with people who choose to co-sleep, but it wasn't for me. I think the butcher knife ads are extreme, but for that community, something has to change.

I'm also just going to add that in response to scientific articles published that say one way or the other which sleeping method is best, just because something is published in a journal doesn't necessarily mean anything. It can still be completely incorrect. Not every journal is fully peer reviewed and an A* or A journal. I can't comment on the standard of those journals though, as I only deal with Chemistry Journals.

mandakp wrote:

I'm also just going to add that in response to scientific articles published that say one way or the other which sleeping method is best, just because something is published in a journal doesn't necessarily mean anything. It can still be completely incorrect. Not every journal is fully peer reviewed and an A* or A journal. I can't comment on the standard of those journals though, as I only deal with Chemistry Journals.

In my lifetime, of 57 years, I have seen medical advice reverse itself and then regress and then reverse and then regress. What's "in" today for being good, is suddenly bad, and vice versa.

Also, how many of you who are giving advice, in either direction, are parents? I find it more credible, when advice comes from a parent. It would be like me giving advice on how to fix a car, because I have dance training. LOL

Also, how many of you who are giving advice, in either direction, are parents? I find it more credible, when advice comes from a parent.

My mother always tries to pull this bullcrap. As if pushing a baby out your vagina somehow increases your IQ.

Also, how many of you who are giving advice, in either direction, are parents? I find it more credible, when advice comes from a parent. It would be like me giving advice on how to fix a car, because I have dance training. LOL

I find it more credible, when people don't use comma splices. LOL

For all you know, I'm a mother of three. One can say anything on the internets!

panic wrote:

Also, how many of you who are giving advice, in either direction, are parents? I find it more credible, when advice comes from a parent.

My mother always tries to pull this bullcrap. As if pushing a baby out your vagina somehow increases your IQ.

No, having a vagina does. LOL

Dream_chaser wrote:

Also, how many of you who are giving advice, in either direction, are parents? I find it more credible, when advice comes from a parent. It would be like me giving advice on how to fix a car, because I have dance training. LOL

Forgive me, but this is patently absurd. Being a parent means you are experienced in parenting. So if the debate was about something that every parent experiences eg. breast feeding, 2 year olds throwing tantrums, this is something that all parents have expertise on. However we're talking about infant mortality, we're talking about increasing the chances of infant mortality from 1 in 10, 000 to 1 in 1,000. Which means that the majority of co sleeping parents/babies won't have any expertise on this topic at all. Only that 1 family will. The other 999 will tell you they slept with their babies and they didn't die, despite a 10 fold increase in risk.

This is where epidemiological studies come in. They can compare 100,000s in trials, in research.

So no, a parent is not the best person to answer this, a epidemiologist is.

edit: those are not real numbers, just made some up to illustrate a point

Do you have actual numbers on this?

Panic, Hummingbird and Millysmommy, thanks for Karma.

Well, it's always good to back up advice with statistics. Many times, people just talk out of their buttocks with no information to back it. Then, I cannot argue.

According to www.justthefactsbaby.com . . .

Every family has different nighttime needs and the key is to find the solution that feels right to everyone in your family, whether it's putting baby in a crib in the nursery, or co-sleeping.
The best choice for co-sleeping is to place a large, firm mattress on the floor, making sure there are no crevices that your baby can become wedged in.
Infants should be placed between their mother and the wall or guardrail as fathers, siblings, and grandparents don't have the same instinctual awareness of a baby's location as mothers do.
Remove pillows and blankets in the early months and don't wear night-clothes with strings or long ribbons. Don't wear jewelry to bed and if your hair is long, put it up.
Make sure that your young baby is sleeping on her back, which is the safest position for sleep.

Did you even read the rest of the debate?

"JustTheFactsBaby.com" is not exactly a scientific source.

Is there a fly in here?

^ I'm so glad you noticed.


We seem to need some visual relief from the (once again)nasty tone. Thank you Debrah Blount.

It is sad to note that this debate, as far too many here on DDN has descended to the personal attack level and honestly, the subject is relatively benign. I know of no place in the Western World where ANYONE is forced to sleep with their baby if they don't want to. I am also unaware of anyone being arrested for the sole reason that they choose to do so.


Keep On Dancing*

Christine wrote:

^ I'm so glad you noticed.


We seem to need some visual relief from the (once again)nasty tone. Thank you Debrah Blount.

It is sad to note that this debate, as far too many here on DDN has descended to the personal attack level and honestly, the subject is relatively benign. I know of no place in the Western World where ANYONE is forced to sleep with their baby if they don't want to. I am also unaware of anyone being arrested for the sole reason that they choose to do so.


Keep On Dancing*

Yes, so I just learn to ignore rude comments by pretending it's an annoying fly... as I sit with a fly swatter next to me.

I can disagree with you, but not become rude when you disagree with me. Why do people lower themselves to immature, rude behavior?

Here is how I was taught.... "I respectfully disagree with you..."

I guess many are taking notes from reality tv and political debates.

Well, I don't have a kid, so it's not like I can participate. Or do you have statistics to back up that stroke of genius?

If you're going to spew something so inane, offensive, and hypocritical, you should not expect pleasant replies. Least of all resort to passive-aggressive insults about "manners."

Infants should be placed between their mother and the wall or guardrail as fathers, siblings, and grandparents don't have the same instinctual awareness of a baby's location as mothers do.

This is such a load of horse crap.

Well it wasn't like it was taken from a scientific source or anything.

And in related news:
www.abc.net.au . . .

mandakp wrote:

Well it wasn't like it was taken from a scientific source or anything.

And in related news:
www.abc.net.au . . .

Co-SLEEPING DOES NOT CAUSE SIDS! SIDS is, by definition, unexplained. In which case, sleeping next to a parent/sibling has nothing to do with it in and of itself. Death by suffocation is NOT SIDS.

SIDS (Sudden Infant Death Syndrome) is unexplained death of an infant. Parents suffocating a child is not unexplained and easily discovered by the medical examiner. I do not know why the media reports it that way, because it is incorrect.

According to the Mayo Clinic, "Sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) is the unexplained death, usually during sleep, of a seemingly healthy baby. Sudden infant death syndrome is sometimes called crib death.

The exact cause is unknown, but sudden infant death syndrome may be associated with abnormalities in the portion of an infant's brain that controls breathing and arousal from sleep. Although all babies are vulnerable, certain sleep environments have been linked to increased risk."

As I said before, I did not do it, other than pass out sometimes, while nursing, but then I awoke and put the baby in the crib, next to me.

I appreciate information that is factual, as Mandakp just did (thanks), and not emotional. Again, "I disagree,", I will give reply, to the rest, I will not.

Kekoa wrote:

mandakp wrote:

Well it wasn't like it was taken from a scientific source or anything.

And in related news:
www.abc.net.au . . .

Co-SLEEPING DOES NOT CAUSE SIDS! SIDS is, by definition, unexplained. In which case, sleeping next to a parent/sibling has nothing to do with it in and of itself. Death by suffocation is NOT SIDS.

That's great. However, the article didn't actually say anything about suffocation. It just said that there seems to be a correlation between co-sleeping and SIDS. Defensive much?

journal.nzma.org.nz . . .
www.sciencedirect.com . . .