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Forum: Arts / Debates
 re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By millysmommy  Comments: 720, member since Tue Jun 09, 2009On Tue Nov 29, 2011 09:17 PM
mandakp wrote:
Well it wasn't like it was taken from a scientific source or anything.
And in related news:
www.abc.net.au . . .
This article stated there were 73 SIDS deaths - 33 of which occured when a baby was sleeping with an adult or sibling. So that means 40 of them died when they weren't. By that study sleeping with your child is slightly safer then those sleeping alone. And it said sibling or adult - did not state mother. I would like to see the numbers look like if mother was divided from it.
And it has been scientifically proven that while a mother is sleeping with her child certain parts of her brain are working that don't in other people or when you are sleeping without your child. I just got home so don't have the time to look up the study but it was done in Europe somewhere, where they actually monitored the brainwaves while the people were sleeping to test this. I will try to post the reference to it after my kids go to bed tonight. |  re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By Dream_chaser   Comments: 24055, member since Thu Jul 26, 2001On Tue Nov 29, 2011 09:27 PM
|  re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By imadanseur Comments: 15029, member since Thu Dec 04, 2003On Tue Nov 29, 2011 09:27 PM
My step-son had night terrors, so there were plenty of co-sleeping from midnight on for us for 3 years. I don't know how some of you do it every night. Some days I hardly saw my husband and talking in bed, watching tv, snuggling, or having sex was not always possibly with our son (who is a bed hog and HOT when he sleeps.) lol.
It wouldn't have ever worked for our relationship to co-sleep for long term. I'm up by 4:45 am and need all the sleep I can get. To have 2 people moving around in bed would be awful for my slumber. |  re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By mandakp Comments: 566, member since Fri Aug 05, 2011On Tue Nov 29, 2011 09:29 PM
That was just a news article that came up in my feed today. If you're looking for more numbers, check out the two articles I posted after for starters. If I search for scientific articles in journals higher than C and that have cited at least 10 times I find WAY more articles suggesting that there is a correlation between co-sleeping and SIDS. That second article I posted in particular was a good one.
I have said this many times in a debate, and I'm goign to say it again. Finding a one-off study that suggests a hypothesis and seems to prove it doesn't mean squat. For starters, a study that was done once and not heard from again doesn't say much about its credibility. Secondly, all the information can add up to match a certain hypothesis, but, it can also add up to match several other hypothesis that suggest completely different things. And third, just because one person says so doesn't make it true. Not every article that gets published is amazing science. Half of what gets published is crap, that's why there are different standards of journals. It means that you can't just take everything at face value.
That second article I posted has references for over 10 more articles that their study was based on. That is far more indicative of a real result than a one-off study.
/end science lesson | re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By Dream_chaser Comments: 24055, member since Thu Jul 26, 2001On Tue Nov 29, 2011 09:35 PM
imadanseur wrote:
My step-son had night terrors, so there were plenty of co-sleeping from midnight on for us for 3 years. I don't know how some of you do it every night. Some days I hardly saw my husband and talking in bed, watching tv, snuggling, or having sex was not always possibly with our son (who is a bed hog and HOT when he sleeps.) lol.
It wouldn't have ever worked for our relationship to co-sleep for long term. I'm up by 4:45 am and need all the sleep I can get. To have 2 people moving around in bed would be awful for my slumber.
I do not even do well with ANYONE in the bed with me. My husband and I, married 36 years, have always had opposite sleeping habits and one of us ended up on the couch! After my son moved out, he decided to take over his room. Now we are much happier!
Yet, so many of the people I know, just love to share a bed and cuddle. |  re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By kandykane Comments: 14874, member since Mon May 01, 2006On Tue Nov 29, 2011 09:36 PM
You know, that's a really interesting thought about all this. Children sleeping with other children. Isn't that a form of co-sleeping? I slept in the same bed as my older sister (well, when we weren't fighting over covers) for years. I don't recall, of course, before about age three but I know we did by the time I was 15 months old because my younger brother came along and he got the crib. And even after we got twin beds I would often go get in her bed, if I woke up scared.
kk~ | re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife (karma: 1)
en>fr fr>en
By Dream_chaser Comments: 24055, member since Thu Jul 26, 2001On Tue Nov 29, 2011 09:40 PM
I was in a crib, until three, then with my much older sister. I know that we were always in cribs because my mom tells us stories of things we did, like my sister putting the contents of her diaper, all over it, and her, like paint. | |
re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By imadanseur Comments: 15029, member since Thu Dec 04, 2003On Tue Nov 29, 2011 09:40 PM
^^One of my sister-in-laws came from a family of 10. They had to share beds and rooms because the family was so big. Now they have 4 kids of their own and the girls and boys slept together for awhile too, and shared rooms until my oldest hit 13 and wanted her own room. So, yeah...that is co-sleeping too. I didn't always sleep with my brothers but there were times I did (I'm 11 and 9 years younger than they are) but I guess I would have been out of diapers by the time I did that. | re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By mandakp Comments: 566, member since Fri Aug 05, 2011On Tue Nov 29, 2011 09:52 PM
Co-sleeping above the age of 12 months and under are two very different things. Particularly in a baby's first 6 months, but also up to 12 months, they are not fully developed, hence all the strict guidelines to how babies should be put to sleep to avoid SIDS etc. | re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By Dream_chaser Comments: 24055, member since Thu Jul 26, 2001On Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:36 PM
Yes, I think that once a baby can roll over, on their own, it's much different than beforehand. |  re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By Christine  Comments: 4465, member since Wed Feb 04, 2009On Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:51 PM
Kekoa wrote:
"PLEASE do not sleep with babies who have giant knives. As shown in the photo, they WILL kill you so they can have the bed all to themselves."
I think this is the most logical point made in response to this thread.
And I especially like that you said, "Please"
Keep On Dancing* |  re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By panic Comments: 10603, member since Thu Dec 16, 2004On Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:11 PM
This article stated there were 73 SIDS deaths - 33 of which occured when a baby was sleeping with an adult or sibling. So that means 40 of them died when they weren't. By that study sleeping with your child is slightly safer then those sleeping alone. It does NOT say that AT ALL. The study only only takes into account SIDS - not other causes of death resulting from co-sleeping (such as accidental suffocation). In addition, the article doesn't mention what percentage of parents in the study were co-sleeping. For all you know, 33 families practiced co-sleeping and 100% of those babies died of SIDS.
And it has been scientifically proven that while a mother is sleeping with her child certain parts of her brain are working that don't in other people or when you are sleeping without your child. That's interesting but largely irrelevant in the context of assessing the danger of co-sleeping. I'd like to see the study if you can find it though. I found this summary from UC's med school www.naturalchild.org . . . But the author specifically says he doesn't recommend co-sleeping across the board. | re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By millysmommy Comments: 720, member since Tue Jun 09, 2009On Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:35 PM
Edited by millysmommy (212564) on 2011-11-29 23:36:20
I'll try to find it online - it was from a published text.
But here is a full article from James McKenna that you posted. Its a long read, guessing no one on here will actually read it, so the one you posted is a good summary of it.
www.naturalchild.org . . .
I would never recommend cosleeping across the board, of course. There are many factors that would for sure make it unsafe. Many economic factors - Especially the use of drugs and alcohol while with your child, and going back to the population that stirred the original news article that started this debate I think that's the problem that should be addressed more then the co-sleeping.
And of course, if it's just not something a person is comfortable doing they shouldn't be villanized for it, but those shouldn't villanize the people who do by making crazy accusations that the original article did, which is basically co-sleeping = SIDS. | re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By panic Comments: 10603, member since Thu Dec 16, 2004On Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:50 PM
I found this too www.sciencedaily.com . . . It says 54% of SIDS deaths were correlated to cosleeping while only 20% of studied babies coslept. But 31% of that 54% was related to drugs or alcohol. And sleeping on a sofa might have something to do with it. And I'm not sure what definition they're using for SIDS because it kinda sounds like they're counting accidental asphyxiation. And after all that, they still never say what the risk of SIDS is in the first place (wikipedia says it's about 1 in 2000 which is WAY higher than I expected). I'm still confused. |  re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By Kekoa Comments: 8132, member since Sun Jul 20, 2003On Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:53 AM
^That's the problem in trying to get actual data...until they do a study on safe crib sleeping versus safe co-sleeping, there's not a lot to go off of. As Milwaukee has seen, poor parents who cannot afford a crib are more likely to co-sleep, and there are major drug issues in the poorer parts of the city. Clearly there is a huge difference in safety between sober parents who follow the co-sleeping guidelines and drug addicts who pass out in bed with their babies, but that is never accounted for. | re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By panic Comments: 10603, member since Thu Dec 16, 2004On Wed Nov 30, 2011 09:20 AM
Well, if you KNOW you don't have all the data, it seems strange to me that your opinion in favor of cosleeping is so damn strong. That's just bassackward. | re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By Dream_chaser Comments: 24055, member since Thu Jul 26, 2001On Wed Nov 30, 2011 09:37 AM
Kekoa wrote:
^That's the problem in trying to get actual data...until they do a study on safe crib sleeping versus safe co-sleeping, there's not a lot to go off of. As Milwaukee has seen, poor parents who cannot afford a crib are more likely to co-sleep, and there are major drug issues in the poorer parts of the city. Clearly there is a huge difference in safety between sober parents who follow the co-sleeping guidelines and drug addicts who pass out in bed with their babies, but that is never accounted for.
Yes, that is the study that I would like to see. I find that many studies can be one-sided and come out with the results that they are hoping for, in both directions. | re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By Kekoa Comments: 8132, member since Sun Jul 20, 2003On Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:17 AM
Edited by Kekoa (69553) on 2011-11-30 11:18:47
panic wrote:
Well, if you KNOW you don't have all the data, it seems strange to me that your opinion in favor of cosleeping is so damn strong. That's just bassackward.
Oh geez, again? No, I do not have huge studies to go off of. The research I've done (and put here) has led me personally to feel that co-sleeping, when done safely, is a perfectly fine sleeping option. On the flip side though, there is also no compelling evidence that crib sleeping is inherently safer. So unless we all take a third route and hang our babies from the ceiling by their ankles to sleep, each person has to look at the evidence we DO have and decide which they think is better. In addition, if such a study WERE done and it concretely showed safe co-sleeping to cause more deaths than safe crib-sleeping, I would most certainly change my stance and move my child. | re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By panic Comments: 10603, member since Thu Dec 16, 2004On Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:29 AM
The research I've done (and put here) has led me personally to feel that co-sleeping, when done safely, is a perfectly fine sleeping option. OK, but this contradicts the researcher from UC med school (see the link I posted) who said he would NOT issue a blanket recommendation in favor of co-sleeping. It also contradicts what you said in your last post until they do a study on safe crib sleeping versus safe co-sleeping, there's not a lot to go off of.
You obviously have an opinion (still don't know based on what) and you are looking for data to back it up. That is not science. That is the opposite of science.
Oh geez, again? Uh, that's EXACTLY what I thought when I read your post. You're making HUGELY contradictory statements. I will point that out every time. |  re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By Heart Comments: 14501, member since Thu Feb 14, 2002On Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:59 AM
Edited by Heart (21721) on 2011-11-30 12:01:18
Edited by Heart (21721) on 2011-11-30 12:02:46 format!
Not sure if this article has been referenced before; I think it might be the one Panic brought up before. But here is an analysis of the prevalence of co-sleeping and SIDS with a control group. And yes, that's SIDS, not accidental asphyxiation. It's very specific and very detailed.
www.bmj.com . . .
There appears to be a veritable ton of multivariate data, the most relevant being:
54% of SIDS infants had been cosleeping compared with 21% of the random control infants.
But here are all the statistically significant findings:
Significant multivariable findings
...The strongest single factor in this model was maternal alcohol consumption. Of the SIDS infants, 16% (13/79) had been cosleeping on a sofa but because only one control infant had slept in a similar environment we combined those infants who shared their parents’ bed and those who shared a sofa into a single group (despite the noticeable difference in risk between the two environments). Overall, 54% of SIDS infants had been cosleeping compared with 21% of the random control infants.
Although the proportion of SIDS and control infants who slept in a room alone was similar (27% v 24%), relatively fewer SIDS infants compared with control infants (19% v 55%) slept in a cot next to their parents’ bed. One quarter of the SIDS infants were swaddled before the last sleep, a bigger proportion than among the controls (19% v 6%), who were usually swaddled in a single thin layer; 12 of these infants were found supine, four on their side, and three prone. More SIDS infants than control infants slept on a pillow; for half of these SIDS infants this included the entire body and various sleeping environments: a cot (n=6), the parents’ bed (n=7), and cosleeping on a sofa (n=3). More of the SIDS infants than control infants (14% v 6%) were placed prone, but the difference was not significant (P=0.07). Nearly one third of the SIDS infants (29%) were found prone and over one quarter (28%) were described by the parents as in fair or poor health before the last sleep; both significant factors in the multivariable analysis. Significant background characteristics included maternal smoking during pregnancy, poor maternal education, preterm infants, and larger families. Several further socioeconomic factors or factors related to the significant findings were tested and despite being significant in the univariable analysis were not significant in the multivariable model. The variable unintentionally dropped, that had more than 5% of data missing and was added at the end of the modelling process, proved to be significant (P=0.006); 12 SIDS infants compared with two random control infants had been unintentionally dropped. Detailed information on the timing of these events was not recorded. None of these SIDS infants had any evidence of injury at postmortem examination.
Of further note:
Of the 80 SIDS infants, 79 died during sleep and one died in hospital after an operation. Table 5 lists the sleeping environment in which the SIDS infants were found and in which the controls awoke after the reference sleep. Most of the random and high risk control infants were in a cot by the parents’ bed for the last sleep (51% and 55%). Most of the SIDS infants (54%) were found cosleeping with an adult, including 13 who coslept on a sofa, an uncommon environment among the controls (one random control infant). Of the 13 SIDS infants who coslept on a sofa, six slept with the mother, six with the mother’s partner, and one with an older sibling. For one SIDS infant this was the usual sleeping environment. The reasons given for cosleeping on a sofa for that particular night were that the infant would not settle (n=1), the infant needed feeding but the parent inadvertently fell asleep (n=7), the infant needed feeding but the parent decided to sleep (n=1), and the family was visiting or on holiday (n=3). In the case of the one random control infant who coslept on the sofa, the infant would not settle.
Study concludes:
The safest place for an infant to sleep is in a cot beside the parents’ bed. Based on evidence from research into SIDS it is questionable whether advice to avoid bed sharing is generalisable and whether such a simplistic approach would do no harm. Parents of young infants need to feed them during the night, sometimes several times, and if we demonise the parents’ bed we may be in danger of the sofa being chosen. A better approach may be to warn parents of the specific circumstances that put infants at risk. Parents need to be advised never to put themselves in a situation where they might fall asleep with a young infant on a sofa. Parents also need to be reminded that they should never cosleep with an infant in any environment if they have consumed alcohol or drugs.
If you focus on the second sentence of that paragraph, be sure to read the third.
Kekoa wrote:
That's the problem in trying to get actual data...until they do a study on safe crib sleeping versus safe co-sleeping, there's not a lot to go off of.
The problem with that is the gap between perfect use and actual use. It's of very little use to know what the SIDS rate is theoretically if in practice it isn't done correctly. That's like going around saying condoms are 99% effective when the truth is, in actual use, it's only around 80%. It's not correct and pretty much unethical to go around telling people a condom is 99% effective because the chances of that being the actual rate are next to nil.
Either way, this study's blather about alcohol and drug use is under the cut.
Spoiler: Show
None of the cosleeping parents of SIDS infants or control infants was taking prescribed drugs to help them sleep. Table 6⇓ shows the proportion of parents who consumed more than two units of alcohol or took drugs before the infant’s last sleep. Drugs included cannabis, heroin, methadone, cocaine, and amphetamines.
Overall, a greater proportion of parents of SIDS infants than those of control infants consumed alcohol and took drugs before the infant’s last sleep, although this was significant only for mothers consuming alcohol. Combining the use of alcohol or drugs for either parent showed a significant difference between the parents of SIDS infants and those of random control infants, but this was not significant when comparison was made with parents of high risk control infants. The same pattern was observed when measuring regular alcohol and drug use, although the differences were not as striking (data not shown).
The contrast was more noticeable when the combined effect of cosleeping and alcohol or drug use was evaluated (table 7⇓). No univariable risk was associated with alcohol or drug use in the absence of cosleeping regardless of the control group used for comparison. The combination of alcohol or drug use before cosleeping was nine times more prevalent among the parents of SIDS infants than among those of the random control infants and six times more prevalent than among those of the high risk control infants. In nine of the families with SIDS infants and none of the control families the daily alcohol consumption was in excess of six units. Of the 24 SIDS infants who had coslept with an adult who had consumed more than two units of alcohol or taken drugs, the adult was the mother in 12 cases, the mother’s partner in seven, and both parents in five. Drugs or alcohol were associated with seven of the 13 SIDS infants who coslept on a sofa. Interviews with control families were on weekdays; thus data are missing on drug and alcohol use on Fridays and Saturdays. When the analysis was limited to the deaths and reference sleeps that occurred in the 24 hours before the interviews on Mondays to Fridays the combined effect of cosleeping and alcohol or drugs among the SIDS infants was still highly significant compared with both the random control infants (odds ratio 10.73, 95% confidence interval 2.52 to 62.75, P<0.001) and the high risk control infants (7.74, 2.03 to 35.50, P=0.0004)
The combination of recent maternal alcohol consumption and cosleeping with an infant on a bed or sofa were the strongest predictors of SIDS in the multivariable model, regardless of which control was used as the comparison. Table 8⇓shows the results of the interaction between cosleeping and parents taking drugs or alcohol in the multivariable models, adjusting for both the weighting factors and risk factors previously reported to be a significant predictor of SIDS. Whether the families of random or high risk control infants were compared with those of the families of SIDS infants, no risk was associated with alcohol or drug use when the parents did not cosleep. Despite small numbers in the study the interaction between cosleeping and parental alcohol or drug use was significant when the families of SIDS infants were compared with those of the random control infants (P=0.002). This remained significant when the families of high risk control infants were used as the comparison (P=0.02). A decreased but significant risk was associated with cosleeping in the absence of alcohol or drug use, although this included infants who coslept on a sofa. The proportion of SIDS infants found cosleeping in a bed with parents who had drunk two units or less of alcohol and taken no drugs was no different from that of the random control infants (18% v 16%). If parents who regularly smoked were further excluded, then five of the SIDS infants (6%) were found in this less risky cosleeping environment compared with nine of the random control infants (10%).
I skimmed that, but it looks like they do eventually narrow it down to a minimal difference between "safe co-sleeping" and the random controls, but at that point the sample size is too small to extrapolate from. They don't give the number at that point but when they exclude further it's obviously way too small. (General rule of thumb, to make an accurate extrapolation to the general population you need an n around around 1000.) And honestly, if we're down to single digits at that point, I'd wager "safe co-sleeping" is way too rare to safely endorse... which is probably why you won't find many scientists doing so. | re: Co-Sleeping Compared To Baby With Butcher Knife en>fr fr>en
By mandakp Comments: 566, member since Fri Aug 05, 2011On Wed Nov 30, 2011 04:21 PM
Kekoa, if you are going to repeatedly insist that your opinion is correct after numerous articles that suggest you are wrong have been produced, at least come back with an argument with actual evidence to back it up, not just NO GUYS CO-SLEEPING IS SAFE, I ALREADY TOLD YOU.
Thanks Heart, that was similar to an article I found yesterday, and it seems like they did a really thorough study. I would believe those results definitely! |
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