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Forum: Twirling / Twirling
 Twirling Possible illusion change in NBTA what do you think? en>fr fr>en
By CoachT  Comments: 2513, member since Mon Apr 19, 2004On Wed Dec 07, 2011 07:46 PM
So if you are in NBTA you have most likely heard about the consideration being given to adding consecutive illusions to the NBTA International safety rules effectively disallowing consecutive illusions.
This has been a major topic with my kids/studio....wonder what everyone thinks?? 20 Replies to Possible illusion change in NBTA what do you think? |  re: Possible illusion change in NBTA what do you think? en>fr fr>en
By SesameSt79 Comments: 407, member since Thu Feb 06, 2003On Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:57 PM
What would be the reasoning behind it? Was there a major injury? Is it to improve illusion technique? Without a valid reason, I would see little benefit. | re: Possible illusion change in NBTA what do you think? en>fr fr>en
By CoachT Comments: 2513, member since Mon Apr 19, 2004On Thu Dec 08, 2011 05:14 AM
The info posted in Drummajor Magazine says the following:
Alert: A you know, there are great concerns regarding the physical effects of multiple and consecutive illusions. Reports have been gathered that imply that multiple illusion repetitions are physically detrimental, causing serious immediate injury as well as complications in later years. Consideration is being given to adding consecutive illusions to NBTA International safety rules effectively disallowing consecutive illusions.
Basically it sounds like the injury of doing them is the reason. | re: Possible illusion change in NBTA what do you think? en>fr fr>en
By Crazy_Twirler Comments: 272, member since Sun Jul 15, 2007On Mon Dec 12, 2011 02:34 PM
So, competitors could thereotically do an illusion two spin catch backhand with a reverse illusion but not a double illusion? What if they did an illusion one spin reverse illusion? There aren't consecutive illusions in that combination because of the spin. What about illusion reverse illusions (tick tocks)?
And then, of course, there's strut, and most beginner to advanced struts would have to change because it seems the flexible beginner strutters are working on double illusions. I'm just thinking from a routine construction standpoint right now, not taking a stance. | re: Possible illusion change in NBTA what do you think? en>fr fr>en
By vnhsdance Comments: 50, member since Wed Sep 17, 2008On Tue Dec 13, 2011 07:29 AM
I know I'd like to see the reports firsthand. Who did them? How long have they been going on? How many people were studied? What was the severity of the injury? Could it have been prevented? And is it across the board with various organizations? I've always been curious to know the injury ratio between NBTA and USTA.
I'm not really taking a stance at this point either... personally, I think there's an over reliance on multiple illusions anyway. And I'd also suspect most injuries, if they are indeed happening, are from improper technique--which is pretty rampant.
But if there is to be such a drastic change, it'd be nice to release the reports. (Maybe they have... I don't subscribe to Drum Major.) | |
re: Possible illusion change in NBTA what do you think? en>fr fr>en
By CoachT Comments: 2513, member since Mon Apr 19, 2004On Tue Dec 13, 2011 08:49 AM
Hi - no reports posted in drummajor.
Not sure what reporst there even are.
NBTA new rules for the year get published/release in January....so Im sure that will be when any changes will be noted. | re: Possible illusion change in NBTA what do you think? en>fr fr>en
By GBSS Comments: 90, member since Sun Aug 24, 2008On Thu Dec 15, 2011 09:53 AM
I'm not aware of any studies specific to illusions, just know that there are medical reports related to overuse injuries, as well as commentary from medical professionals who work with dancers and twirlers who state that the body is not constructed to do illusions, more specifically, that the illusion is the "worst thing for the body" (as it relates to dance moves of course). Both Physical Therapists as well as Orthopedic surgeons make these claims. This is not related to proper technique, however, since everyone is made differently, everyone has different ranges of motion in the hip, so some may be more prone to injury than others, but overuse can affect even the most flexible person.
As to the comment regarding illusions separated by spins, my guess is that they are ok, based on the general statement made. I'm curious about the tic-toc as well, it does seem to fit the "consecutive" definition though.
I would think that any change to the rules of this magnitude would have more advanced warning than to be simply issued in the rules this coming January, especially with contests following soon after, as well as it being a worlds year.
I think the approach being taken, to eliminate the consecutive illusions, but not all illusions, makes sense as a way to limit the importance that is currently placed on the multiple illusion tricks. If it didn't do serious physical damage, a slower approach, like encouraging judges to identify the over dependence on these moves, could be implemented.
BTW, I had a student who had orthopedic surgery over the summer to try to eleviate problems associated with her hip. There are others, current and former twirlers, who have also had, or will have, hip surgery. I assume this idea, or support of this idea, is coming from many quarters. | re: Possible illusion change in NBTA what do you think? en>fr fr>en
By GBSS Comments: 90, member since Sun Aug 24, 2008On Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:05 AM
Here is a short release from Children's Hospital in Boston.
childrenshospital.org . . .
While it doesn't mention hip problems as major issues among all US youth sports participants, it discusses the tendancy in youths towards overuse injuries, and the potential lasting consequences.
And the use of "whipping" to describe the motion causing Little League Elbow, brings to mind the whipping motion of the leg in an illusion done at high speed. | re: Possible illusion change in NBTA what do you think? en>fr fr>en
By FloorXpert Comments: 29, member since Wed Jul 20, 2011On Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:22 PM
There was a really good article in USA Gymnastics a few years ago regarding illusions, and the reasons why they are discouraged for athletes below the elite level. I will do some research to see if I can find it. | re: Possible illusion change in NBTA what do you think? en>fr fr>en
By twirlinaround Comments: 16, member since Sun May 08, 2011On Fri Dec 30, 2011 04:18 PM
I am 150% in support of this. I would take it a step further and ban them altogehter, not just consecutively. An illusion is an illusion regarding injuries, so what difference does it make it they are consecutive? Even if you do an illusion two spin, a kid is still going to practice it 100 times in the gym, so there is a 100 illusions causing bodily problems.
They are ugly.
They are done improperly.
They cause injury to the back and hip regardless if they look pretty or are done properly.
The rest of the routine gets lost because of all the doubles and triples.
They are a mess in teams...and the change would eliminate the "go, go" during competition.
Judges, spectators, and coaches get caught up in the big illusion tricks and forget about low difficulty, rolls, technique, you know, the rest of solo (and strut).
I would challenge individual competitors and teams to start putting quality routines out there without illusions.
Think that's about it. | re: Possible illusion change in NBTA what do you think? (karma: 1)
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By vnhsdance Comments: 50, member since Wed Sep 17, 2008On Sun Jan 01, 2012 09:26 PM
Let's not just blame illusions here. ANY move, done improperly, can cause injury. Students can get hurt from a simple jump or leap, if they land incorrectly. And the hip is still used in kicks, fan kicks, and arabesques... and many of those moves are done just as incorrectly. So at some point, we have to ask ourselves, where do we draw the line?
Now, if there is some clear evidence consecutive illusions are causing injury, that's one thing. Although I'm not sure why we either can't: get the correct technique taught, or start penalizing for incorrect illusions (call it a body off pattern, that's what is is anyway). That could possibly do just as much to stave off injuries.
And speaking as a judge... in general, I find double and triple illusions a big bore. Unless the execution is flawless, I pretty discount them. |  re: Possible illusion change in NBTA what do you think? en>fr fr>en
By TwirlSportJunkie Comments: 443, member since Wed Nov 13, 2002On Mon Jan 02, 2012 04:30 PM
I dont think it can be better said than vnhsdance. I think if someone does want to step up and really do attack this issue a twirling bodyvideo should be made for athletes and coaches to ensure better technique. | re: Possible illusion change in NBTA what do you think? en>fr fr>en
By pestojesto Comments: 49, member since Tue Feb 20, 2007On Wed Jan 04, 2012 07:20 AM
vnhsdance wrote:
Let's not just blame illusions here. ANY move, done improperly, can cause injury. Students can get hurt from a simple jump or leap, if they land incorrectly. And the hip is still used in kicks, fan kicks, and arabesques... and many of those moves are done just as incorrectly.
Illusions done correctly cause injury too. And straight kicks and arabesques don't have the same ball -in-socket rotation as an illusion does.
This suggested change doesn't seem to be about eliminating all potential injuries but reigning in the excessive use of one move that, done right or wrong, can cause Serious (aka Life-long) injury.
We can't protect our twirlers from all injuries. I once knew a child who fell out of bed and sprained a finger, but we don't propose that people sleep on the floor. It is all about assessing risk to reward. |  re: Possible illusion change in NBTA what do you think? en>fr fr>en
By buckeye2 Comments: 3345, member since Sat Jan 01, 2005On Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:49 PM
I actually just heard about this from one of my twirl moms last night. The majority of my students compete in TU and I am not too familiar with NBTA.
It seems to me that this is just another way to keep twirling from advancing out of its orginal form. Mulitple illusions are viewed as too much gymnastics, which we already know is banned from NBTA. I have noticed from watching NBTA competitions, that it is pretty much just strictly twirling. No gymnastics and they don't care if you can dance, they just want to see baton work.
If they're going to take out illusions, then shouldn't leaps go as well. That's a lot of stress on the ankles and knees when you land. And how about lay outs/lay backs while we're at it. Arching backwards compresses the vertebrea in an unnatural way. Maybe bring back the long skirts and tassled boots too.
Okay, so maybe that's going a little to far. But I am certainly not a supporter of this "lets get rid of consecutive illusions" idea. If you don't want the kids doing them as much, then don't allow the judges give them such high difficulty points. It is my understanding, which could probably be wrong, that all competitors who participate come from coaches who are NBTA certified. So why not give them more training on body awreness and how to properly teach illusions and to stress the importance of not putting them in a routine if they aren't done correctly. | re: Possible illusion change in NBTA what do you think? en>fr fr>en
By vnhsdance Comments: 50, member since Wed Sep 17, 2008On Fri Jan 06, 2012 03:51 PM
pestojesto wrote:
Illusions done correctly cause injury too. And straight kicks and arabesques don't have the same ball -in-socket rotation as an illusion does.
This suggested change doesn't seem to be about eliminating all potential injuries but reigning in the excessive use of one move that, done right or wrong, can cause Serious (aka Life-long) injury.
I guess the big surprise to me is I personally have never even heard of ANYONE having any injuries due to correctly executed illusions, let alone life-long ones. Now, of course, my personal experience is a far cry from science. And perhaps people were having problems that I just never heard of. But it really just seems like these claims are sort of coming out of nowhere. Usually when a change this drastic is coming, you've have a bit of a sense of it. Like, "Wow, I can't believe how many people are getting hurt from illusions... something should really be done." Again, this is not to say it's not happening... just that I haven't been aware of it.
Rhythmic gymnastics heavily use illusions; are there injuries there, too?
If anything, as the above poster states, I'd worry more about leaps on concrete. Most dancers I speak to think we're insane to do that, and are begging for injury. I don't like to have my dancers do it. But twirlers never give it a second thought. | re: Possible illusion change in NBTA what do you think? en>fr fr>en
By TwirlSportJunkie Comments: 443, member since Wed Nov 13, 2002On Mon Jan 23, 2012 02:38 PM
What always struck me as odd, much like what VHSDance mentions is the jumping on concrete. But more than that...Ive designed many teams from twirling heavy to dance/jumping heavy type of twirlers and the thing that makes me cringe continually is the FOOTWEAR. In all other sports, they wear dance sneakers, cleats for football...everything that enhances and designed to stand up to the demand of the sport requirements. We have....Jazz Shoes. :/ Even cougars which are better traction wise really doesnt offer any type of support for jumping.
I continually outfit my more advanced body teams in dance sneakers and jazz pants. I know that Ill see some sort of comment about it, or effecting the "Toe Point" but at what cost?! Continually as coaches we get trained that the welfare of the athlete is paramount, yet we have old standards such as this in place. |  re: Possible illusion change in NBTA what do you think? en>fr fr>en
By twirl365 Comments: 91, member since Thu May 11, 2006On Wed Jan 25, 2012 11:30 AM
Are there any updates from NBTA regarding illusions? | re: Possible illusion change in NBTA what do you think? en>fr fr>en
By CoachT Comments: 2513, member since Mon Apr 19, 2004On Thu Jan 26, 2012 06:16 PM
Well 2012 Rules came out and I didn't see anything posted about illusions....so...guess it was just something they were thinking/talking about. | re: Possible illusion change in NBTA what do you think? en>fr fr>en
By buckeye2 Comments: 3345, member since Sat Jan 01, 2005On Fri Jan 27, 2012 02:11 PM
TwirlSportJunkie wrote:
What always struck me as odd, much like what VHSDance mentions is the jumping on concrete. But more than that...Ive designed many teams from twirling heavy to dance/jumping heavy type of twirlers and the thing that makes me cringe continually is the FOOTWEAR. In all other sports, they wear dance sneakers, cleats for football...everything that enhances and designed to stand up to the demand of the sport requirements. We have....Jazz Shoes. :/ Even cougars which are better traction wise really doesnt offer any type of support for jumping.
/q]
The footwear certainly comes from the dance aspect in twirling. Ballet shoes, jazz shoes, lyrical shoes, and the ever popular trend of bare feet that is making its way into the dance world. Hip hop sneakers probably off the best support as far as dance goes, yet that's a style where the dancers spend more times on their hands and head than their feet.
Even in the running world, they are branching into the land of no support. Have you seen runners in those shoes that look more like rubberized toe socks? I personally don't know why anyone would want to run and feel every pebble and rock under their feet, but hey - to each their own. | re: Possible illusion change in NBTA what do you think? en>fr fr>en
By TwirlSuperstar Comments: 76, member since Tue Jan 22, 2008On Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:37 AM
Yes. I get it we do dance moves..but dancers certainly do not do certain footwork twirlers do that the shoe wasnt made for was my point. | re: Possible illusion change in NBTA what do you think? en>fr fr>en
By kaycolen Comments: 7, member since Wed Mar 17, 2004On Mon Jan 30, 2012 09:54 PM
Don is thinking about removing ALL illusions, not just consectutive. |
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