I have struggled with this philosophically and emotionally for the last few months. While I agree with some of core foundations of the movement, I just think a lot of it is getting lost. I feel (at least in the United States) there has been an attack on capitalism which is ridiculous because capitalism isn't evil. I agree the bailouts shouldn't have happened and somethings in business are so deregulated now, but I'm pretty sure that setting up tents is the best way to battle it. In my opinion nothing has changed except annoying a lot of people and many people who don't have jobs or choose not to have them, just have different residence. We have democratic channels at our disposal to change our government. I don't know what policy proposals most of the Occupy protestors are honing, but to say the current system is bad and having mixed messages without offering any solutions seems ridiculous. GO HOME, find someone to actually change current legislation.

Some Occupy protesters are creating a public health risk, which is costing cities over $50,000 in cleanup costs. The encampment sometimes is denying access to the park for people unrelated to the movement. In my city we do have curfew rules, we do have rules that people can't sleep in public parks etc. I'm all for free speech, but also don't like people violating the rights of other members of the community with their protests. Why take over a park and push other tax payers out who want to use it for running, family get togethers etc. They seem to be alienating a lot of people.

The Occupy DC Movement is camped about one block from one of my musical performance venues here in Washington. While I am generally sympathetic to some of their underlying premises, I am now convinced that these are the wrong messengers with the wrong message.

Their prolonged encampment and disruption of the activities of the people they profess to support are not winning them any friends. They are expressing some very mixed messages and their causes seem to be quite scattershot. (The other day they caused a major traffic jam here -which would have affected me had I not known the back streets of Washington as well as I do) to protest the condition of a Potomac River bridge (which really is not in all that bad of condition and which is an entirely local issue.)

Washington DC, is of course very tolerant of public demonstrations. We have them often, for all sorts of questions, some serious (Martin Luther King in 1963) to frivolous (Louis Fahrrakhan's "Million Man March".) Most are done with the proper permits. They come, they state their case, and they leave. I don't know the current permit status of the DC Encampment but they have become a blemish on the landscape and a general nuisance. The expenses to the DC Government or to federal authorities (esp. the US Park Police, a federal force responsible for most public and monumental spaces here)with local jurisdiction and local appropriations is enormous.

Most of these demonstrators are sincere and law abiding, but the exceptions are a danger to themselves and the community (as when they made ad hoc and unannounced moves to block a major traffic thoroughfare. (The DC encampment is in McPherson Square which borders K street on the north, one of the major cross town streets (but also home to many of the lobbying firms.) We hear their manifestos on the local radio and TV all the time and many of them come off as total goofs with no concept of just what their agenda really is.

Jon

Maybe I'm remembering something else, but I thought there was a thread about this a little bit ago? It might not have been in debate section though.

I dislike the "Occupy" movement, because I feel like what may have started off as a very organic thing has grown into something semi-trendy. You know, so people can gather around with their friends to "fight the man". You know, walk to the center of town in their Uggs and Northface coats, listening to their ipods, and drinking Starbucks. People who have the luxury of missing work (or do not have to work) to protest corporate greed at the expense of those below the poverty line.

But the core of the dislike is that I have no clue what they want! Granted, I don't follow super closely anymore, but I have no clue what would happen in a perfect world if the Occupy protestors got what they wanted. Would Bill Gates deconstruct Microsoft and sell off various parts of the company to make it smaller? Would the CEO of Nike move all of their production lines the United States?

It's a movement that I so very much want to love and want to like, but even the [original] Boston Tea Party had its issues. And regardless of what happens, a lot of us cannot simply divorce ourselves from "big corporations" like the colonies did from Britain.

I agree with some of their ideas, but not their means by any means. I think the way they (not everyone but the fact that I am clumping them all together speaks a little bit as to how out of control this has become) have been behaving is just....juvenile. Take all your energy and turn it into something positive. Run for public office! Create an ORGANIZED presence at select things. The way they are targeting absolutely everything is just messy, in my opinion.

The final straw for me was that recently a very public figure (you can figure this out and stalk me if you like haha) spoke at my school and people from the Occupy movement where I am located stood up and started chanting against the man. Now, I am totally for questioning public figures and in fact, this speaker left room for questions (at a speech about brain research!). I don't want this guy elected either, but I was so disgusted with the actions of the people who were protesting. How can you claim to be for free speech when you won't let him speak? It makes no sense to me! Have some respect and let others share their opinions instead of talking over them. So juvenile. There is a way to question the government and chanting at a speech about medical research that will benefit them is not the way to get your message across. Sorry, but the whole thing got me really heated.

I dislike the Occupy Movement a lot more now, then when it started. I used to agree with some of the core values, but it seems like those went out the window once it became the trendy thing to do.

Here are the reasons I dislike it.

1. Occupy Oakland has caused the ports to shutdown. This hasn't really hurt the big 1% but the workers who work in the 99%. Not everyone can afford to lose a day of work due to the Occupation. The truck drivers also lost money because of the port shutdown. I feel that the Occupy movement is totally missing the point, but taking away the jobs from the 99%.

2. Occupy San Francisco State University has been horrible. First of all, the majority of the protestors aren't even students. They camped outside the center during finals week making a lot of noise chanting. There were a bunch of us trying to study for finals in study groups and they really disrupted the environment. This was about 10 PM-12 AM and they just wouldn't shut up. At that point, I didn't even care what they were protesting, I just automatically wanted the other side to win because they were so freaking annoying.

These Occupiers also got pretty physical with me. I was moving along to class, and one actually grabbed me by the arm to physically stop me. It took all my might to not punch him in the mouth, I hate people just grabbing me for no reason. I just felt like violence wasn't the key, so I just stood there and listened to their stuff. They tried to recruit me and I finally said...
" You know, I really hate camping. You guys don't even have marshmallows here. How the heck are you guys supposed to make S'mores? Even you camping songs stuck, they all sound like gregorian chant". Basically I had to out-ditzy the protestors. The majority of these people don't seem to even know what they are protesting. I asked them where the heck the 1% were, and they didn't seem to know. I told them it was useless protesting when the people they were protesting can't even see them. They said they were waiting around for news cameras to show up....I guess they just wanted to be on T.V.

3. Occupy San Francisco has really hurtful small business owners. The have/are protesting in the Plaza and there are a couple of small sandwich/coffee shops in the area. I actually went in to talk to one of the owners, and they said business has been running pretty slow because of the Occupy Movement. I understand this, because the majority of the protestors I saw that day were rowdy, smelly, and very loudy/pushy.

At this point, I feel that I want to be on the other side of the protestors JUST because they are rude, ill-behaved, and get pretty physical. I don't care what the heck they are protesting anymore, and I just wish the cops cleared these annoying people out.

If these people wanted to get a point across, they are going by it entirely the wrong way. I feel that the Occupy Movement varies by the city. I feel that the ones in San Francisco seem A LOT more ill-behaved then the ones I see in other countries on the news/youtube.

So in a nutshell, I believe that the good core values of this protest has been lost by the method of protesting.

PS. Something totally ironic. One of the guys I talked to has a father that works at Cisco. I asked him what his father's income is, and he basically is in the 1%. His son was protesting a movement without actually knowing his family was considered the 1%. Dumbass.

I don't get what they're trying to achieve, because it's been going on for months and they haven't actually achieved anything, have they? Except pissing people off.

There were some smug student types occupying a gatehouse at the University a while ago and blogging about it. I'm generally opposed to squatting anyway but these people really got my back up when they started posting pictures of the security folk and police who were trying to get into the building. They blurred out their own faces, but not those of the people who were just doing their job. The hypocrisy of the whole thing maddened me, plus the fact that I think students SHOULD pay for their own higher education.

Anyway, I digress. It's not achieving anything except for annoying people.

I think this article in Rolling Stone is very good at explaining exactly what the issues are. I'm just not convinced that most protesters are knowledgeable on said issues or that tent towns further the cause. Anyway, check out this article because it lists the specific ways Wall Street cheats:

www.rollingstone.com . . .

Now in California, students are also protesting about tuition hikes, which are sky high and getting higher. At my son's university, students broke in to a library that had closed down for supposed lack of funds. They were preparing for finals week and wanted to study. They 'occupied' the library and compiled data showing the regents' increased pay at the same time as decreased services such as the closed library. School officials said they were going to open the library back up all along. Heh, I don't believe that. I'm proud of the students getting involved and because they wanted to STUDY, lol.

I really don't think that it achieved anything except pissing people off. They were kicked out of a part in Toronto... their tent city is now sitting in a landfill... ANNNNDDDD tens of thousands of dollars worth of damage was done to the park. I think the sod farmers of Ontario actually donated sod and their services to re-sod the park. Personally I think that the protesters should have been the ones cleaning up.

To me they just came across as a bunch of bums who couldn't be bothered to try to look for a job... I know this isn't the case, but it is how it looked to many people.

One Occupy movement near me was thrown out of a downtown park because of sanitation issues. Which I agree with. It was disgusting how some of these people were treating the park and I NEVER agree with littering. (I was a Boy Scout leader for many years and I firmly believe in the 'leave no trace' ideal of camping.) They can protest during the day, but they cannot camp out. As their party site has been taken from them, their numbers are dwindling. Maybe the approaching holidays have something to do with that also.

kk~

My thoughts? Get off the street corner and go occupy a desk. Or better yet, go occupy a humvee and personally earn the right to run your mouth.

Freaking stupidity.

It's so funny that everyone keeps saying the movement hasn't achieved anything. Yet here we are discussing it AGAIN. It absolutely has affected the political rhetoric all over the world. How many times have you heard "99%" in the last few months? No one could look objectively at the results of this movement and say it hasn't achieved anything. I mean, disagree with the movement all you want, but to say it hasn't had any effect is jut ideological BS. And completely disconnected from reality.

And I'm also mystified why everyone keeps implying the methods they're using are unamerican. This country was FOUNDED on civil disobedience. The revolutionary war was civil disobedience taken to the extreme. The REAL tea party was civil disobedience. Rosa Parks's bus ride was civil disobedience. The protests against the Vietnam war that helped end that conflict were civil disobedience. Harriet Tubman's underground railroad was civil disobedience. Our history textbooks are FILLED with acts of civil disobedience. So objecting to the method makes me think y'all just don't remember much about your American history. This is how we have always done it around here.

Or better yet, go occupy a humvee and personally earn the right to run your mouth.

The right to run our mouths is guaranteed in the constitution. I know you hate the consitution and all, but there it is in black and white.

^^^^ Cold weather always helps, too. The August riots in England (which I maintain were only to do with greed and thinking you're being very clever) soon ground to a halt as soon as it started to rain. Funny how people's morals do a volte-face when there's a nip in the air.

The thing that gets me, particularly in 2011, is that nobody seems to understand what they're protesting against. I didn't see a single student interviewed who didn't mention "finding £9k a year to study" when the whole point was that it's a loan you pay back when you're earning. And the amount of Occupy protestors using iPhones, Twitter, wearing Ugg boots, sipping Starbucks...it just doesn't fit with people supposedly protesting about capitalism.

^You're not paying attention. The protest is about an inequitable distribution of wealth and a lack of economic mobility. No one is protesting against capitalism. Do you people even know what capitalism is? Because I haven't heard ANYONE suggest that the government should nationalize the oil companies or the pharmaceutical companies or ANY companies. Accusations of anti-capitalism and socialism are canards. And frankly, I only ever hear such accusations from politicians deliberately trying to mislead or from people who don't really know what the words mean.

panic wrote:

It's so funny that everyone keeps saying the movement hasn't achieved anything. Yet here we are discussing it AGAIN. It absolutely has affected the political rhetoric all over the world. How many times have you heard "99%" in the last few months? No one could look objectively at the results of this movement and say it hasn't achieved anything. I mean, disagree with the movement all you want, but to say it hasn't had any effect is jut ideological BS. And completely disconnected from reality.

And I'm also mystified why everyone keeps implying the methods they're using are unamerican. This country was FOUNDED on civil disobedience. The revolutionary war was civil disobedience taken to the extreme. The REAL tea party was civil disobedience. Rosa Parks's bus ride was civil disobedience. The protests against the Vietnam war that helped end that conflict were civil disobedience. Harriet Tubman's underground railroad was civil disobedience. Our history textbooks are FILLED with acts of civil disobedience. So objecting to the method makes me think y'all just don't remember much about your American history. This is how we have always done it around here.

You know, that's what really is sorta funny about all this. A lot of my research involves antebellum America and abolitionism in particular. And contrary to what a lot of teachers seem to teach, the abolitionist movement was NOT composed of the entire Northern region of the country. Quite the opposite. Pretty much right up until Uncle Tom's Cabin and beyond the thought was "Oh look, it's those crazy abolitionists again, publishing newspapers and making speeches".

For whatever reason I never made the connection to the Occupy movement, but the comparison makes a heck a lot of sense. Great point.

^^ A lot of the protestors I've seen (admittedly only on tv) have been waving anti-capitalist slogans and all that, though. This is what I'm saying about people not understanding and just protesting anyway (or protesting to try and get on the telly, or just to say they were there) - perhaps the people who came up with the ridiculously pompous 99% rubbish know what they're protesting about, but a hell of a lot of other people DON'T. Wagon, meet band.

Can you give an example of an anti-capitalist slogan you've seen?

Stunning banner, I thought. charliepeer.blogspot.com . . . The blog has nothing to do with the banner by the way, I just wanted to include a source.

Here's another image - londonnewspictures.photoshelter.com . . .

Similar to above - www.newint.org . . .

Not sure if this counts or not - www.flickr.com . . .

This definitely does - www.flickr.com . . .

This too - www.flickr.com . . .

Those pictures are why I try to remain focused on the banking misdeeds which are very valid concerns. Otherwise it just turns into a big whine about capitalism which is ridiculous. As a struggling entrepreneur I would be furious if my small business was negatively affected by protesters.

I agree those signs are ridiculous. They're also don't really express any coherent views about capitalism. Furthermore, they do not represent the mainstream OWS views, so I don't think it's fair to label the entire movement anti-capitalist based on some fringe elements. Any more than it would have been fair to say the Tea Party wants to get rid of Social Security even though it's pretty easy to find a few radical tea party members who advocate such. You are painting the entire movement with a broad brush based on a few kooks. Do you seriously think OWS wants to dismantle the ENTIRE western capitalist economy? Seriously? And replace it with what? Communism? Is that what you're implying?

I'm sorry but labeling the entire movement anti-capitalist is just intellectually lazy mudslinging.

I didn't label them all as anti-capitalist and you know full well I'm not implying JS about communism. I said that there were people protesting about capitalism, ostensibly as part of the Occupy movement, whilst enjoying the trappings of a capitalist society. Hence my post about enjoying big brands whilst "supposedly protesting about capitalism". (I assume the original Occupy guys aren't wearing Nike trainers and getting KFC for lunch.) I said that this showed that a lot of people don't understand what they're protesting about. Whether they've skewed the 'original' meaning or whether they don't understand capitalism or whether they're just jumping on the bandwagon, whatever, there are a lot of people out there who are joining in without much thought. As you can see, they've turned part of the movement into an anti-capitalist demonstration. It's all part of something that was very common this year, and that's protesting when you haven't got a clue what you're going on about. I might not understand it all but then I'm at home and not causing anybody any bother.

Except I have never heard any official OWS spokesperson say anything about wanting to dismantle capitalism. Have you? I HAVE heard them talk about the failure of the government to effectively regulate the financial industry, inequitable distribution of wealth, unfair taxation, and lack of economic mobility. So singling out random crazies from the crowd isn't fair. The tea party quite often had protesters with nazi symbols on their posters. Most of us were smart enough to realize that was a fringe element not representative of the party as a whole. But if I were doing Louise-style commentary, I could say the entire tea party supported nazis even though none of the main tea party spokespeople ever brought up the issue.

Once more: I'm saying that SOME people don't know what they're protesting about. SOME. But I know how these little exchanges go, and I've already been kinda Godwinned, so Merry Christmas. You are WAY too much like my ex boyfriend at times.

I'm saying that SOME people don't know what they're protesting about. SOME.

Do you not think this is true of absolutely every political movement in the history of political movements?

You know, we're all occupying for different reasons. Everyone I have spoken to at Occupy Melbourne is there for unique reasons. Some of us want the banks to be better regulated. Some of us want mining giants to be held to account for the damage they are doing to our national parks. Some of us want better funding for mental health services. Some of us are just expressing a general malaise with the way the world is at the moment, and have come to Occupy to learn more about fractional reserve banking, or government lobbying, or fiat money, or whatever else.

Furthermore, if all the information you're getting on WHY we're occupying is from mainstream media, OF COURSE it's going to sound like we're a bunch of doofuses who don't know why we are there. The mainstream media want to discredit us, they want us to fail because they are part of the 1%. They pick the doofuses out of the crowd to talk to, because it serves their agenda.

Try going down to an occupation if there is one near you, and talk to people. Meet with occupiers from the media working group, or the logistics working group, or the education working group, and ask them questions. You'll get a different answer from everyone you talk to, not because we don't know what we're protesting, but because the problems plaguing society at the moment are so numerous that EVERYBODY has a different opinion on what we should focus on.

And that's the beauty of General Assembly - ANYONE can come along and make a proposal on any topic. There are no leaders and there is nobody in charge of the movement as a whole, so everyone can have their voice heard and can propose that Occupy takes on their grievance as something it will support.

Get on YouTube and search for videos and interviews with occupiers made by citizen journalists. I guarantee you you'll get a clearer picture of what Occupy is about if you seek out alternative forms of media outside of what Murdoch is pushing.

For myself, personally? I like capitalism, and I like the things it gives me. However, when I can sit in a nice house and type on a computer and check my Android phone for messages while there are people manufacturing shoes and t-shirts in sweatshops for pennies, and children starving to death or dying of gastroenteritis in Africa because of the massive debts their nations owe to rich first world nations, it troubles me to my very core. Government and big businesses need to be held to account for the unethical things they do, and I occupy because I want to see capitalism done in an ethical, equitable manner.

Erin.
::righteous babe::