Yeah, see I'm weird like that - I'd be like 'So? As far as I'm concerned, if I didn't have a hand in bringing that child up or pushing it out as a baby, I wouldn't feel any emotional connection - the same as I didnt suffer any emotional misgivings or regret when I had my terminations, just relief.

I must be missing some sort of maternalistic emotional gene or something, even though I have two beautiful children that I love dearly. I didn't care about them a fig until I was about 24 week's pregnant either, to the extent that I called them either Zygote or Spare Body Parts respectively.

Edit- sorry, Erin, that was in response to Louise but you got in between us boyh (so to speak!)

I suppose you (general you) just won't know until you're in that situation. Forgive me if I'm being presumptuous but it seems you started to really care about your unborn children at the point at which they became real to you, right? So perhaps you would feel a tug towards a real person on your doorstep. Perhaps you wouldn't. Me for example, I don't know for sure that I'll freak out and scream obscenities if I got pregnant by accident. I might be pleased, I don't know. I've never been pregnant before to my knowledge so I just can't say for sure. Phoebe didn't think she'd want to keep one of the triplets until she was just about to give birth. I just think there's always the chance that the kid would find you and that you'd care about it, which is worth considering as part as the overall thought process.

Whoa, I have to back up for the second. What is the deal with this?

You're against IVF as something you wouldn't choose to do yourself or against IVF in general, as a whole? My word, if it's the latter, you're more heartless than I ever imagined.

Just because somebody doesn't approve of messing around with biology/nature like that, they're heartless? Color me surprised by that one.

I'd be really interested to hear why people think it is so morally abhorrent to get paid for egg donation? I don't think it is comparably with blood donation, because blood donation is life saving, and therefore should be a gift given out of the kindness of peoples hearts, in my opinion. However, while it is indeed sad that people are unable to conceive naturally, they don't actually *need* to have children: there are 7 billion people in this world! If YYD was to donate her eggs she would effectively be providing a non emergency, non lifesaving, and non vital service, completely different to blood donation, which is all of those things. So why shouldn't she get paid? The only reason people seem to be able to provide for not getting paid is 'just because' which is hardly a decent response.

EU law, for one. This link might help. www.bbc.co.uk . . . - drawing attention in particular to:

Dr David King, Director of Human Genetics Alert, said it will create a financial incentive for women.

"Ethically, it's wrong to make part of the human body a commodity," he said. "The body should not be part of commerce."

and

Josephine Quintavalle, of Comment on Reproductive Ethics, said: "Egg harvesting is an invasive and dangerous process and women should not be induced with ever larger sums of money to incur such risks."

It's interesting to me that an exception is made for selling eggs when it is not seen as ok to sell kidneys or skin or other body parts. I wonder why that is?

EDIT: What about the money that you are going to use for your 'adult getaway' that you've mentioned on the other thread? Is bf paying for all of that or are you contributing? Because if you are, maybe you should reconsider and save that money for some loan payments since you feel your financial situation is so dire that you are thinking of doing something like donating eggs to get money.

Odessa wrote:

There is an elephant in the room here people, and it's the fact that if YYD donates her eggs and then raises another kid of her own, her kid and her donated egg kid could meet, fall in love, get married and have babies without ever finding out that they're siblings!!

I was going to make that point, but forgot. So useful. I don't know my father, so I grew up knowing that there may be a situation where I meet a guy and cannot say 100% that he's not my half sibling. That's a bad situation to be in, regardless of how minute the possibility is of falling in love with a half sibling (although there was something done a while back on siblings who were raised apart but fall in love as adults, apparently there's something about the familiarity that makes them more inclined to do it!)

^There's some kind of name for that, Something Phenomena. They found that when you grow up in a house with the same person your whole life, you have no sexual attraction to that person, but when you didn't, then you don't have the frame of reference that you shouldn't be attracted to that person. I'm wildly simplifying it, of course, but it was on that show, Weird Sex, that's on sometimes.

Sometimes law and morality are one in the same, and sometimes they aren't. I don't buy the argument that it is morally wrong just because there is a law against it. I don't know much about the specific law here in the US, but to my knowledge it is actually illegal to pay for these services as well. That is why they call the money you get "compensation." No one is actually paying you for your eggs, they are compensating you for your time and whatever else you might be affected by (medical bills, lost wages, hardships, etc). I know it can be seen as mostly semantics, but I think the way this discussion has turned it is an important clarification even if some just see it as a way to work around the law.

That being said, I would never donate my eggs just for the money anyway. If someone came to me directly (family member, friend, even an acquaintance that I didn't know so well) and stated their need for my eggs, I would at least give it some serious consideration provided that there would be no expense to me. I don't know why people have a problem with what someone else is doing anyway. Obviously there is a demand for this service. As YYD explained, there was a demand for eggs from someone of her descent. Likely the people who are looking for those type of eggs do not have anyone else they can turn to and are willing to compensate a stranger for the use of the eggs. Just because you wouldn't do it, doesn't mean the person who does is morally corrupt.

'EU law, for one.'

In addition to the very good point made by hooray4jj that law and morality are not necessarily the same thing, YYD is not in the EU, so the fact that payment for egg donation is illegal here is beside the point.

'"Ethically, it's wrong to make part of the human body a commodity," he said. "The body should not be part of commerce."'

Right, I understand this statement, but it doesn't answer why the human body shouldn't be part of commerce. This is a controversial argument, but one could say that every time we make money it is because of different organs of our bodies. Earn money for manual labour? You've used your muscles, got your heart pumping faster. Work in an office? You earn money by thinking, by using your brain. Why is it wrong to use a different organ of your body to earn money? I feel like I should point out that I am sort of playing devils advocate here, but I don't think answering the question of 'why is it wrong to sell parts of your body?' with 'because it's wrong to sell parts of your body' really explains much. It still seems to be a knee-jerk response that remains a very superficial answer to what is a pretty deep question.

'"Egg harvesting is an invasive and dangerous process and women should not be induced with ever larger sums of money to incur such risks."'
Right, but plenty of people earn money from jobs that are potentially very risky, and society is fine with that because we realise that these people understand and accept the risks, and think the benefits outweigh them. Obviously if a women was told that egg donation was easy and risk free it would be immoral, but in my opinion if a women has had the potential risks accurately explained the decision of whether it is worth it or not for the money should be up to her. I find the implication that payment for egg donation would be preying on vulnerable women a weak and patronising argument: I believe women are more than capable of making a decision for themselves. Obviously safe guards should be put in place, but I think that banning payment completely is a bit heavy handed.

I read the link Louise posted. I thought it was interesting that it included a video of a British women who said she had to put her life on hold for years while she waited for an egg donor, she talked about how devastating it was for her. She even called it 'soul destroying'. Clearly in the UK the lack of payment is hardly encouraging women to donate eggs: in the article it states that the waiting list can be 5 years long and many women go to the USA instead. As a British women, there is no way I would donate eggs currently without any financial incentive, it sounds painful, and a massive hassle...I'm not that nice! I would not be surprised if introducing payment would increase the number of donors in the UK, leading to more families being able to have the child they so desperately want.

Saying all of that I just regard one of my eggs as a bunch of cells, which'll only get destroyed every month anyway, so I think that's why I can't really see what the fuss is about.

'EU law, for one.'

In addition to the very good point made by hooray4jj that law and morality are not necessarily the same thing, YYD is not in the EU, so the fact that payment for egg donation is illegal here is beside the point.

Your question was, why do people think it's morally abhorrent. I provided the link because it explained MY opinion and saved me the effort - I know EU Law doesn't apply to her but you were asking us/me why. Obviously I don't disagree with it just because it's against the law. But a whole continent of politicians, scientists and doctors have decided that people shouldn't be paid. People whose careers, every moment of their working life is geared towards genetics and reproduction and IVF, who work with donors and recipients day in day own. I don't think that's to be sniffed at. Laws don't become laws out of thin air, and these laws are fairly recent since it's only been possible for a relatively short period of time, so it's not as if this is an archaic "if you were born on a Tuesday you have th legal right to drive your flock of sheep down the high street on Sunday afternoons" kind of law.

Your comparison of people's daily work is poor. I use my muscles to break those rocks, but I'm not depleting my stock of muscles. I'll still have exactly the same amount tomorrow. I can keep my strength up. I used a bit of brain power to write that press release, but I'm not going to lose any intelligence by having done so. I can maintain my skills. If I sell some eggs or a kidney or an arm, I'm not going to get it back.

I don't know how seriously you think I'm taking this but it's nothing I'd campaign against or write letters about or become an activist about.

It's actually taken me this long to realise this isn't on the debate board, which I originally mistakenly thought it was.

Women are born with a finite amount of eggs. (Some priliminary research shows that this might not be the case, but so far there are only 1 or 2 studies demonstrating this, neither of which was on humans.) So far as we know right now, you are born with a certain amount of ova, and once you run through those, you're done.

By going through egg donation, you're speeding up that process and shedding those eggs faster than you normally would. After you stop taking those extra hormones and injections and so on, your ovaries should go back to normal, but once you lose those eggs you are never getting them back.

The long-term health risks of egg donation aren't that well studied, and donors have reported fertility problems later in life. There's not much out there on long-term effects to reach a firm conclusion either way.

I was considering egg donation at one time, but all the health risks were just too much for me. The side effects are atrocious and I haven't decided whether I want to have kids or not. It's just not worth the risk.

The couple receiving the eggs likely doesn't care for one moment why you chose to donate, they will just be grateful you did.

Unless I misunderstood your comments you also don't expect your current boyfriend to be your- for lack of a better term- "forever" mate or husband to be so I'm not sure that his ambivalence should be considered. But how will you feel if he leaves you over this?

Also to consider you'll have to refrain from physical intimacy for the duration of the process- not even with protection.

And another consideration what happens if/when you and your current boyfriend break up. Then you have to worry how far into each consecutive relationship you have to reveal this. And as you've seen people can have strong objections about it. So how will you feel if you lose "the one" over this?

I'm not saying to do or don't do it. I have no moral objections to being paid for such an invasive procedure. I just hope you consider that if you do this, it's permanent. There are no chances to undo it once it's done so I'm glad you're taking time to consider it. It shouldn't be an impulsive decision.

Edit-- and slightly off topic- for those with vehement moral objections to being paid for egg donation, do you also consider adoption agencies fees and living expenses for surrogates morally questionable? Not looking to debate my opinions, just curious how the line is drawn...

^Exactly, that is heavy on my mind too. I am planning on being my bf's "forever" mate, but because of our huge age difference, I will most likely be a widow by the time I am 40 or 50 so he will never be *my* forever mate. I would most likely need to find another partner after him.

I am worried at what my future mate would think. What if I lose him over the fact that there might be children out there with my genes. What if he wants some of his own kids, and I am infertile.

You brought up super good points and I am considering all of this. Right now I am leaning more towards not donating after considering everyones view points. I still have no moral objection to it at all, but I am worried about the side effects and complications. I already have a history from reacting to hormonal birth control, so I feel it would be stupid to willingly inject myself with HUGE amounts of hormones.

What I have decided to do, is make this decision on my 22 birthday. I am giving myself about 6 months to decide what I want to do, and really research this topic a lot more. I am going to try and talk to women who have done this firsthand.

Please keep giving me opinions+advice about all of this. I am still jumbling everything in my head.

J1ll wrote:


Edit-- and slightly off topic- for those with vehement moral objections to being paid for egg donation, do you also consider adoption agencies fees and living expenses for surrogates morally questionable? Not looking to debate my opinions, just curious how the line is drawn...

Absolutely. Adoption companies have to charge fees, it's how they run. However, beyond those fees and the medical expenses of the mother placing her child up for adoption, no money should be exchanged. With surrogates, the area is a little grayer. Beyond medical expenses, no, there should not be money exchanged. However, it would be another story if the pregnancy caused illness or complications that made it so that the woman couldn't work. In that case, I wouldn't find it immoral to provide for her living expenses, but certainly not beyond that.

YYD, I say this with nothing but kindness, but you shouldn't do this. You are clearly conflicted (with very appropriate and serious concerns), and this isn't something you should do unless you are 100% certain and have been for a considerable amount of time, because this is a BIG deal.

I just want to add that money is a temporary problem and but if you do this, you can/will be dealing with the consequences forever. I think everything else has been said already.

What if he wants some of his own kids, and I am infertile.

Think about what YOU want, not some imaginary future partner who may or may not ever exist. If you want to have a kid some day it may not be wise to mess around with something like this. When I considered egg donation it was after I'd already decided not to ever have a kid, so the possible fertility issues didn't bother me...heck, it would have been a benefit as far as I was concerned. But the stories of women's bodies changing shape permanently and the crazy PMS on crack side effects...just too much for me to risk compared to the amount of money offered for eggs. It's not that much money in the grand scheme of things.

Here in Australia no one will take your eggs (I have done some serious research into this because I wanted to donate my eggs, I figured one egg a month was disapearing down the drain, someone who needed them may as well have them) until you have "completed" your family, making it nigh impossible for childless women to donate, no one I spoke to would let me anywhere near the process as a childless woman. Even women with single children find the process difficult to get through, for some reason the groups feel you need multiple children to have a complete family.

No financial benefit here either, in some cases your medical bills will be paid for. Because we do have the notification laws here the concept of the anonymous donor is really disapearing, more for sperm from what I have heard. I think in Victoria they don't even have anonymous egg donation anymore, you put yourself on a website and then talk to the possible recipiants.

All this is academic of course as YYD isn't Australian and I have been unable to help others. But the research I have done I found quite interesting.

YumYumDoughnut wrote:

^Exactly, that is heavy on my mind too. I am planning on being my bf's "forever" mate, but because of our huge age difference, I will most likely be a widow by the time I am 40 or 50 so he will never be *my* forever mate. I would most likely need to find another partner after him.

I am worried at what my future mate would think. What if I lose him over the fact that there might be children out there with my genes. What if he wants some of his own kids, and I am infertile.

I don't know that your potential future mate wanting children is really an issue, if you don't plan on finding this potential future mate until your 40's/50's as the odds of having your own children at that point would be quite slim.

Egg donation is never something that I would do just for anyone as I hate the idea of injecting myself daily and putting my body through all those hormonal changes for no real reason. It is something I would consider for someone very close to me though. I think I need more than a financial reason (and not a very good financial reason at that!)

I've spoken more to my boyfriend about this whole thing, and I have decided not to do it. He has offered to help me start paying off the school loans and we decided to use the money for the Europe trip towards my education.

Yes, there is always the possibility of us breaking up but I think for now things are good. He has a history of helping people out financially even after a breakup, if he made a commitment to help them. Either way, even if his help falls through, I have to keep in mind that loans under $20,000 are totally doable even by myself. I am getting a engineering degree, so I am hopeful that I can get a good paying job.

My boyfriend was supportive either way, but once he figured out that I was doing it only for financial reasons he decided to put the vacation fund he saved up, towards University. He said if I reconsider it for other reasons he won't try and stop me...but he doesn't like the idea of me using my body out of desperation.

Thanks for the help you guys. I really think I made the right decision by not donating my eggs. I can't even imagine that there is a chance that my kid might be out in the world, and I would never know of it.

I couldn't be bothered reading this whole thing...

But my opinion/advice?

Donating eggs is a very very personal thing, and its something that an internet forum isn't really the best thing to get guidance on. No one knows your circumstances, or your headspace. If you want to do it, you'd know.

For actual advice, it would of been better seeing a counsellor at a family planning clinic or something similar.

Its like asking "Should I get an abortion?" Everyone has their own views, but the only one that counts is yours.