I recently started taking lessons at a new school. I'm in Irish dance. I'm worried that choosing this school was a mistake. Irish dance teachers often yell in class, but this teacher (who is male) yells at a few of the youngest champion dancers, and never at the older dancers. He is frightening. At my last class, he spent a very long time yelling at a 12? year old little girl who is going to All Irelands, because she wasn't crossing over enough. As an older dancer, I don't know whether this was "tough coaching" that will make her a better dancer, or just verbal abuse from someone who wants to have the reputation of turning out world champs. I feel like I am not in the position to do anything, don't know what to do if I were, and I'm horrible with confrontation. I don't think I could do it. But I also don't want to be the person who stood by and did nothing while someone else was abused.

Was he yelling in a personal demeaning way? How long did it last? Was the dancer phased by it-looking shaken?

or was he just yelling 'how many times do I have to tell you to cross?' Cross,cross! as she went across the floor.

First scenario-could be a problem. Second scenario-not a problem

Well what exactly was he saying? I think context really is important.

I have taken dance since I was very very little and have been through many different forms. The ones I found that had teachers who were most likely to yell is ballet and Irish.

Now that being said ever since I was little the times I would get yelled at the most was when I was doing something I had already been corrected on many many times. ESPECIALLY if I was going to competition. My current ballet teacher is from Brazil and always tells us:

"Don't be upset if I correct you or get upset with you. I do it because I see potential and know you can do better. You should be upset when I don't give you any corrections, because that means I do not think it is worth correcting you anymore. Either because I see that you do not listen, you do not apply what I tell you, or you just flat out do not care. So if you don't care I will not waste my time with you, I will focus on those who do."

Now that being said I have never been cursed at or called names (stupid or the like), I think THAT would be crossing the line.

You say you just recently started at this new school so I would give yourself some time to see if this is "normal" behavior, and go from there.

anonymous wrote:

I recently started taking lessons at a new school.

I feel like I am not in the position to do anything, don't know what to do if I were, and I'm horrible with confrontation. I don't think I could do it. But I also don't want to be the person who stood by and did nothing while someone else was abused.

You really don't know the dynamics of this new school. Let the people involved speak up for themselves.

If this teacher's style is something you just can't abide, find a new school. It might be the wrong school for you.

Good luck.

Keep On Dancing*

It's really hard to say from the information you provided.

I never had a ballet teacher who didn't yell at me. They yelled things like 'Get up when you jete! stop flopping! Just do it!' or 'I shouldn't have to show it again! Pay attention!' It was all corrections and instructions, not personal insults or comments. I had a few who would literally grab and force you into the right position or walked around with a stick which they used to poke you with. It sounds severe but it never felt like abuse to me then and looking back, it doesn't now either. To me it was just very serious training for very serious students. It's not what I would do as a teacher but it worked and I don't think anyone was harmed.

If a teacher is making degrading, hurtful or insulting comments or yelling in a way that is threatening then it might be different. It's hard to say. I will say that when I was about 12 I had a modern teacher insult me in a snide way and I just never went back. I think even at the age of 12 a kid is likely to speak to an adult if they are having their feelings hurt. Once again, it is very hard to say not knowing the context or what was said.

I love Madseason's observations and comments. I would like to ask, did you get the impression this teacher was trying to achieve a better dancer or was the goal to belittle or make the young dancer cry? The answer to that question will tell you if the situation needs intervention.

I must admit, I have a problem with teachers who've watched "GI Jane" or "Officer and a Gentleman" once too often and think they're running basic training for adults in the military. Rarely have they themselves been through boot camp, and I think they're trying to prove something (to themselves as well as others).

If I have guessed the identity of this teacher correctly, he had a stern, well-disciplined teacher himself, but she was always fair, calm and NEVER used intimidation as tool. We can't say he's treating his students as he was treated.

Do the parents know about this teacher's behavior and methods? Some parents believe excellene in dance requires coaches who are, for want of a better description, cruel. If the parent is ignorant of the situation, you may want to mention a few general comments along the line of "Gee, your dancer is very strong. I don't think I could handle being yelled at so much." If the parent is one of those "cruel to be kind" types, support the dancer outside of classes as much as you can.

I sense an unspoken question on your part, too. You expressed misgivings about transferring to this school. Do you think you made a mistake? Irish dance makes transferring a nightmare. However, staying in a hostile, abusive environment is also a nightmare. You have some decisions to make about your own future, too, I think.

By the way, I admire your concern. This school is trying to establish a reputation quickly. Since they did well at the O, some may shrug and ignore the situation. I'm glad you realize a reputation for good results shouldn't be acquired at the expense of the littlest, most defenseless of us.

:( I used to do irish.

In retrospect, yes, it probably might be verbal abuse... we used to cop a myriad of sarcastic comments like "you live in the same house and YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO HOLD HANDS?". Multiple teachers used to share the space and when they weren't happy with us (most of the time) they would roll their eyes and trade degrading comments about us - as we were dancing - across the shared room where everyone could hear. Constant yelling... even after I left the studio I used to shake whenever I so much as passed the intersection where the road the led to the studio started. I grew to fear/dislike irish dance so much that for years afterwards I even refused to listen to irish music.

It's weird though. It seemed so common/the better schools were just too far away (2+ hrs driving) so you put up with it because the teacher could take you where you wanted to go. Definitely a case of teacher ambition and not knowing how to communicate properly/appropriately. However, I told my mother about it - any other dance form she would have pulled me out, but she was actually my biggest preventer when it came to leaving. I've always kind of regretted that one, but I was only in my early teens back then.

We had a few World Champions at our school and one of them quit immediately after winning the title because they knew they couldn't take the new pressure they'd receive at the studio afterwards. Apparently the few years I spent at the studio was the worst, fear completely outbalanced the fun, and in the following years not only did half the school leave, but half the staff and the school has since lost its prestige and the studio owner has become a "much nicer person" (out of choice or necessity? She used to scream at us that she didn't need our money and only wanted students who would actually listen to her. Usually verbalised right as she would storm out of the studio for an unscheduled break).

Tough coaching is different. Tough coaching to me is having high standards and only receiving praise when you've done really, really well. There is NEVER a good justification for belittling someone, especially in front of their peers.

Not sure how much that helps, but wanted you to know that you're not alone. In your case... dancer history says shut up and leave (and quickly). It's her business. You have to let other people speak/act for themselves. It's not the nicest ending, but the best I can offer

There's a dance school that I know of that has a teacher just like this. Although their dancers place well, we all pity them because they get screamed at a LOT.

As someone that's studying to be a teacher, I'd rather my kids place 2nd or 3rd and still LOVE dance than place 1st and end up hating everything about it in the next few years. I'll be there to facilitate a love of Irish Dance and culture, not a fear of messing up while on stage for a few minutes.

There's not much you can do for the other dancers, but if you're older then I'd make sure that you set a relationship up with the teacher where they KNOW you're not going to take that type of treatment.

I'm the original poster.
I'm not a newby, I've been dancing for thirteen years; I've done Irish, Ballet, Highland, Hebrew folk, etc... I WANT my teacher to push me. I NEED to improve. I know that being ignored is the kiss of death. My old teacher used to yell, but it was NEVER in a mean way.

Anon: She does look shaken. If I were her, I would have cried. I'm not sure how long he yelled at her, but it felt like an eternity. He was just telling her to cross and sharpen her steps, but its the way he screamed it at her, and the way his face looked so angry. I guess he did seem like a drill sarg.

Spiorad: It is normal for this class, its happened a few times, before major comps, and usually to her. I'm just not sure if its right. She's not exactly in the position to defend herself. If she doesn't want to do it, she shouldn't have to; it should be her dream. Not the teacher's, not the mother's. Why is yelling acceptable Irish dance, when it wouldn't be other places? What ever happened to talking to someone as if they are intelligent enough to understand what you are saying?

Christine: It isn't a question of dynamics. Its not "have the people of this school accepted that their teacher is going to angrily yell at someone else" because they all clearly have. The class went from older girls wasting time in the back, to a dead calm, and then industrious practice, which was good, because I don't know why you would goof around at the back when you are in a champ class, but he wasn't yelling at them.
Also, switching schools would mean a year off competing, in which case I might as well quit. And this is the only thing keeping me alive right now, if you know what I mean.

Madseason: I've always been a very serious student, and I consider a class without correction to be a waste of time. I quit Highland about eight years ago because my teacher had me do the same tired steps every week with no correction. I just think he is a bit of a bully. I find the way he yells at people to be terrifying. And yes, she is a great dancer PLUS she is young, which means she definitely has the potential to make him look very good. I don't envy the type of attention she is getting at ALL. I want to believe that he is just toughening her up. But I feel guilty because I feel like I should have protected somehow. And I know it will be like this until AllIrelands is over.

Glitterfairy: THAT is exactly what I mean.

Nyssassistic: exactly. she should be loving what she is doing. otherwise, its a waste of time.

Mm. I hear what you mean about wanting the attention, and the critique. That's why I moved to the studio mentioned above in the first place. Honestly - I did improve. The choreography was better. I was certainly challenged more. I also cried a lot more and in the space of a year I went from loving irish more than anything else in the world to hating it and being afraid of it.

In regards to the transfer, I know what you mean. Had I the opportunity to do things again, and had there been another good school within a reasonable distance, I would have done this even if it meant taking the year off. I was already thinking about quitting full-stop a good 6 months before nationals rolled around anyway.

At the time, I considered pursuing other dance forms but was afraid that I was "too old" to start all over again. What I have since learnt, especially since I had a REPEAT of the super-sarcastic-yelling-teaching situation in another dance form, is that it's just not worth it. The good news is that there are always other things to pursue - a quick flick of the forums here will show so many other dance forms you can try (once you're 20+, it's also quite common for dancers to start trying martial arts and acrobatics)

What I would suggest, since you feel it's keeping you together at the moment, is to hunt around for alternatives and if/WHEN you find one, then transfer Be open-minded. When I picked up singing classes (shortly after I left irish), it was one of the best things I'd ever done I also started participating in musical theatre, which was also one of the best things I'd ever done Generally speaking, music teachers have a lot more "teacher" training than dance teachers, so you'll get a lot of correction there, but minus the "I'm so frustrated because you're not magically doing what I want you to do, so I'm just going to yell at you unconstructively until you do it" bit.

I had an experience quite similar to you GlitterFairy. And it's nice to know that I'm not the only one who has felt like that. I get terrible anxiety now when I go to dance class and compete, which I think wasn't helped by my experience with a teacher like that, despite my present teacher being the most wonderful person ever. And I feel awful feeling like that because I consider it derespectful to my new teacher.

My old teacher started off being very nice and supportive, though there was always one person who was being criticised quite harshly and often I think, unfairly - especially as they were younger kids who had a lot of potential. In the end, these people one by one left, and then I was the last one standing and then I too got that treatment. I put up with it for quite a while. I vented to non-dancing friends who told me I should get out of there because it was bullying and it was making me very unhappy.

Again like you said, I went from loving the dancing, to hating the day when dance class rolled around when I'd brace myself for next round of criticism. My biggest regret is probably never once standing up for myself during that time.

I think in general Irish Dance teachers do tend to get more stressed and 'on the edge' around the time of majors - probably because they have a lot of pressure, sometimes from parents, to get the top placings for their dancers.

Regarding transferring as you know, Irish is often difficult with transfers because even though you cut out the teacher from your life you still bump into them at competitions or often they are on the panel of judges. Whereas other forms of dance seem to have an independent set of judges.

"I'm so frustrated because you're not magically doing what I want you to do, so I'm just going to yell at you unconstructively until you do it" bit.

I think is is kind of key really. Often people just do not know how to do a certain move or are having difficulty with the timing or technique and unless it is explained to them properly or broken down, then they have no idea of what they're doing wrong or how they can work on improving the 'faults'. And I do think unless that is explained to them then the yelling is pointless because the dancer is still in the same position of being unsure what they're doing wrong and repeating that mistake.

Anyway. Back to you situation. I think you should perhaps give it more time, like the other posters have said and as you are fairly new to the school, but if you're still feel unhappy or unsure about this teacher, then I would think probably about transferring. There are probably atleast a few options with schools depending on where you are based. I would watch their dancers/teacher(s) at competitions to get a feel for what their setup is. The grass isn't always greener as they say, so I would bear that in mind if you do opt for the transfer route at some point.

My personal opinion is that Irish Dancing is a hobby to be enjoyed, and unlike other dance forms, the chance to do it professionally has limited opportunies especially with the big shows slowing down quite a bit. I do think people take it much too seriously for what it is worth at the end of the day.

I do hope your situation does improve and that you are able to get out of dance what you want and that you DO enjoy every moment of it. After all the journey ends so fast that one minute you're in Under 10, the next Senior or so it seems...

I've been watching this thread with increasing alarm. Maybe I have a different slant on this issue because I'm a mom to an Irish dancer, an ex-teacher and used to be on a school board. The situation, as described, is:
1) Adult male instructor
2) Mostly female underage students
3)one, preteen female, in particular, being subjected to verbal abuse and menacing (in legalese, this could be termed "assault"),

Are you all seriously recommending this dancer mind her own business and ignore the situation? In every bullying scenario, there are always 3 types: the bully, the victim and the "bystanders." Research shows bystanders who communicate dissatisfaction with the bully's tactics can have a mitigating effect. Any other response is interpreted by a bully as overt or tacit permission to continue his behavior.

With the attitudes like those expressed in this thread, is it any wonder Joe Pateno never followed up on the situation at Penn State? Now, this TC isn't sexually molesting this young girl, but there's also evidence that predators advance to worse behavior in steps when nothing is done to stop them earlier in the process. Individuals like the one you describe sometimes have "issues" with women, which they "work out" using the most vulnerable of us.

Now, before you say I'm over the top, NO, there were no sexual allegations. NO, it isn't necessarily time to call the police. It is time for this dancer and any of the older dancers who object to the situation to take a stand with this TC. Certainly her parents need to be aware of the situation. Would this behavior be tolerated in a classroom teacher? a religious instructor? a babysitter/day care provider? If there was a closed circuit TV feed, what would public opinion be? Would you be embarrassed if the closed circuit TV showed you taking "some time to see if this is 'normal' behavior?"

Just because ID has survived a few bad apples with these types of problems doesn't mean we're doomed to a future of more of the same. Stardards can be raised if we demand it. This behavior may be more "common" than it should be, but none of us should accept it as "normal." It is not.

Ladies, it is time to "man up."

I would suggest that you say something to the parents of the dancer, just to mention your concern, and to make sure that they know what is going on. I don't think it would be good for you to stand up for the dancer in class as it may come back to hurt you but I would absolutely say something to the parents, or to the head TC (if there are several) so that the issue is addressed.

he was yelling at her to cross and sharpen her steps-right before a major. There are no allegations that he engaged in any personal or insulting verbiage.

We don't know how long it lasted-if it was only while she was dancing that is more than fine. You would need to yell to be heard.

his face looked angry-my husband's face looks angry when he is intensely debating something. he is not at all angry-he is just focused. but if you did not know him or listen to what he was actually saying you would think he was angry.

And by the way-coaches of elite athletes do get angry when their students appear to be not making corrections. Our tc is wonderful but she tells me sometimes she wants to yell "**** Girls, pick up your feet!" at them. A male tc may not feel the same societal inhibitions.

just playing devil's advocate. A 12 year old is more than capable of telling her parents that she got yelled at by her teacher. My dd from age 9 would tell me if her tc yelled at her-often times accompanied by "Miss Suzy doesn't know what she is talking about-it was my partner who went the wrong way."

anonymous wrote:

just playing devil's advocate. A 12 year old is more than capable of telling her parents that she got yelled at by her teacher. My dd from age 9 would tell me if her tc yelled at her-often times accompanied by "Miss Suzy doesn't know what she is talking about-it was my partner who went the wrong way."

Having taught at both girls' and co-ed schools, I am in an expert position to tell you not many 9 or 12 year old girls are as self-possessed as your daughter. Even if they were, I don't think adults or "of age" dancers should expect them to shoulder the burdon of some adult's bullying tactics. If this dancer is less self-possessed than yours, that is even more reason to intervene in the situation. Clearly, his behavior was outside of the bounds of normal, loud Irish dance coaching or the OP wouldn't be conflicted and moved to ask for advice.

Yes, I want to second the above poster. Many twelve year old girls would not say anything to their parents. There are many reasons for this. a) they don't realize that the way they are being treated isn't right b) there were 15 other people watching who said nothing, so it must be alright. c) the guy who was yelling at her is an amazing dancer and popular, so he couldn't be wrong. d) she might think she might be in trouble for not dancing well enough, etc...

Not everyone in ID would term the situation you describe as "normal" or acceptable. One ID teacher has a blog. This is a quote from one of her posts. Please forgive the length, but this topic deserves a lot of time and consideration. I truly believe once a girl is conditioned to accept abuse, she will not only accept it as a woman, but perhaps seek it. We all have a friend or family member who should not be with the man she's with. We wonder why she doesn't see the light. We are frustrated she won't listen to us when we counsel her to terminate the relationship. Putting a stop to early, abusive conditions is one way to stop the cycle.

the Teacher’s Code of Conduct
May 20, 2011
I will treat students in my class with respect. Yelling at students does not improve them, and I do not become a better person by doing so. I will not ignore students in my classes, nor will I only give feedback to a cherished few. All are here to learn and do their best.

I will take each individual student and decide what is best for them, aside from the rest. I will make unique decisions on steps, class placement, costuming and invitations for special opportunities for each dancer based on their strengths, attitude and work ethic.

I will run a business as effectively as possible. I will strive to give notices ahead of time and in an easily accessible way. I will be present in my classes, both physically and mentally. I will not be distracted by chatting or story-time during dancing class. I will keep my tuition rates at a reasonably stable scale unless changes in my overhead occur. I will return calls and messages on my own time, but I will return them.

I will maintain professionalism with my students. They are not my drinking buddies, confidantes in my personal life, or replacements for friends my own age. At the same time, students are not “customers”, they are protoges, mentees and children who need a warm and accepting adult teaching them.

I will protect my students inasmuch as is possible from political backlash, rumor mills, backstage parents, bullies, and their own insecurities.

I will treat the parents of my students with respect. I will listen to their concerns and follow-up with action. I will strive to bring the desires of the parent, the dancer, and myself into concert for the benefit of all.
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I will keep my thoughts of discontent about other dancers, teachers, adjudicators to myself. Sharing them with my students will only encourage rivalry and discontent.

I will treat all students who transfer from me with respect. I will not require my remaining students to treat them like pariahs, nor will I try to intimidate them by occupying the front row center seat at all their future competitions.

I will not gossip. I will not use intimidation to get what I want. I will not rumor-monger or dig a pit for my neighbor.

I will treat nearby schools and teachers with respect. I will speak highly of them if asked, recommend them if it seems they are a better fit for an interested dancer, and strive to maintain friendly relations with them, no matter what their behavior is returned as. My students will not learn hate from me.
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I will keep current on steps and styles in the sport. I will do all in my power to ensure that the school has effective choreography and safe teaching methods through constant improvement of myself and my staff.

I will be honest in all my business. Dancers from my school will dance in the appropriate age category. Teams will dance in the proper rotation. Feiseanna organized by my school will not alter results or hire a “fixed” panel of judges.

I will not encourage adjudicators by any means available to me to place my dancers higher than any other, save they should dance in a way that merits the placement. I will not bribe, blackmail, or “buddy” to become the best.
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I will dress appropriately at Irish Dance functions, from feiseanna to meetings to receptions. I understand that not only my reputation as a person, but the tenor of my entire school is affected by my personal appearance and behavior.

I will behave in a professional manner at all Irish Dance functions. I will not yell at students, coach them from the aisles, tell them they are terrible dancers, become inebriated, or make comments aloud about other dancers at the event, nor will I argue at meetings.

I will strive to promote Irish Dance in the best light possible to the public.