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Why Dan Savage is a Jerk en>fr fr>en
By Heartmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 14987, member since Thu Feb 14, 2002
On Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:10 AM

Didn't know where to throw this, so Maudes, feel free to move it if need be.

Found this article and thought it was awesome, so thought I'd share.

This article is from AfterElton.com, and I'm going to share snippets from it as it is 2 pages long.

This week we discuss noted gay rights activist and sex advice columnist Dan Savage. I want to begin by stating emphatically that Dan has done tremendous good for the gay and lesbian community. As an educated, articulate and passionate voice for honesty and equality, Dan has dared to take on some of our most ardent critics in profound and powerful ways. But even more than that, with his "It Gets Better" campaign, Dan gave hope to some of those who need it most — closeted gay teens living in homophobic states, towns and homes.

But you probably noticed that in the above statement I said the "gay and lesbian community," pointedly leaving out the word "bisexual." Why the omission?

Because in my opinion Dan Savage is a biphobe.

Wikipedia defines biphobia thus: "Biphobia is a term used to describe aversion felt toward bisexuality and bisexuals as a social group or as individuals."

For over a decade now, Dan Savage has been saying blatantly hurtful, cruel and insulting things about bisexuals. For this champion of the gay community and the face of the "It Gets Better" campaign to treat bisexuals with the level of disrespect he exhibits is shameful.

AfterElton.com contacted Dan, asking if he'd like to clarify his position on bisexuality. He declined to respond to the questions I sent, which I take to mean he stands by his record. So let's examine that record, shall we?

In 1999, Dan printed this response after being challenged about his biphobia:

"Sorry, but avoiding bi guys is a good rule of thumb for gay men looking for long-term relationships. Outside of San Francisco's alternate-universe bisexual community, there aren't many bi guys who want or wind up in long-term, same-sex relationships — monogamous or not."

His cruelty in suggesting bisexuals should be shunned by any gay person seeking a long term relationship is exceeded only by his hubris in thinking he can judge an entire community based on whatever limited sampling he happens to have to work with.

Also from 1999, Dan offered this solution for bisexuals seeking love:

"No, there are definitely some people who should fool around with bisexual men: OTHER BISEXUAL MEN! Jesus Christ, bisexuals — if straights and gays treat you unfairly, then why not turn to each other for love and comfort? Judging from my mail of late, there's an unlimited supply of easily offended, extremely verbose, highly ethical bisexuals out there looking for love. F**k each other!"

Apparently, we are not only people who cannot be trusted enough to get into a relationship with, we are also SO high-strung and easily offended that we should stick to our own kind. That, at least, is what my bisexual ears are hearing from Dan.


Hold on, I need to go puke in a bucket. This is the guy who's campaigning for equal rights and tolerance and freedom from discrimination? THERE IS NO HOPE

It sounds like to me that in Dan Savage's utopia, bisexuals really should be branded with a Scarlet B (h/t Jamie) so gays and lesbians can avoid us like lepers. Take a look at the advice he gives this person with a bisexual girlfriend in February 2009.

Questioner: I’m a lesbian, and my girlfriend is bisexual and wants to have a three-way with a man. This makes me nervous. What should I do?
DAN: Get yourself a refillable Xanax prescription, or get yourself an actual lesbian girlfriend.


...Excuse me?!

So, apparently, Dan doesn't think this relationship is even worth trying to save. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but all he gives it is a flip one sentence response when his usual advice to straight or gay people in similar situations is that you need to be willing to at least listen to the needs and desires of your significant other. But his "advice" here is to just dump the bisexual without discussion or debate.

Dan seems to believe in bisexuals in the same way an 8-year-old believes in Santa Claus. That is, he doesn't really believe in them but it makes people happy to think he believes, so he says the words.

Case in point, he has said that he identified as bisexual when he was sixteen and it is his belief that many gays and lesbians do the same only because they are not ready to come out. He uses this fact as further reasoning that most anyone else claiming to be bisexual before they are 30 is probably either confused or just a closet case.

In the 2008 documentary, Bi the Way, Dan said "I meet someone who's 19-years-old who tells me he's bisexual and I'm like, 'Yeah, right, I doubt it. I tell them come back when you're like 29 and we'll see.'"

That's a very troubling thing to hear from a champion of equality. Doesn't a person have the right to say for themselves who and what they are, regardless of age? And even if some percentage of young people who do identify as bi only to later realize they are gay, what of the actual bisexuals who read his dismissive words? As an elder statesman of the GLBT community does he not owe them at the very least some respect when discussing them, if not some actual helpful advice when they ask for it?


Skipping ahead (there's a YouTube clip provided if you want to go to the article and watch).

Dan has talked about his experiences as a gay teen for the "It Gets Better" campaign. In doing so, he makes it clear that while he might have used bisexual as a stopping point on his way out of the closet, he knew he was actually gay. In fact, it seems to me he is confusing his own experience of using bisexuality as a pitstop on the road to coming out with the reality that some teens really are bisexual. He appears to refuse to accept another person's truth because it conflicts with his experience — much the same way right wing conservatives refuse to accept that homosexuality is not a choice because that just doesn't make sense in their world.


I would say exactly the same way.

Let's look past his mixed message of who knows what they are and when, and look at something else Dan says in the above video about us bisexuals:

"The other problems and truths that upset the bisexual community when we talk about them are that most — the overwhelming majority of bisexuals wind up in opposite sex relationships."

I have no idea what statistic he is using to come up with this "overwhelming majority." It feels just like the amorphous and unsupportable statistics cited by religious fanatics who are trying to prove why homosexuality is wrong, destructive or just icky. When a speaker uses such a hyperbolic phrase as "overwhelming majority," it feels like an opinion wearing a fact suit.


This next part I can really, really relate to:

But taking these two statements of Dan's together, what I come up with is the realization that Dan's skepticism about bisexuality seems to be rooted at least partially in the idea that some of the bisexuals he has known have wound up in same sex relationships and some have wound up in opposite sex relationships.

And that is a problem why?

What does Dan expect from bisexuals? If we can't commit to either gender without being dismissed as actually being gay or straight rather than simply being bi, then what are we supposed to do? Dedicate six months out of each year to each gender? Just because we wind up with a guy or a girl does not mean we lose the attraction we have to both genders -- just as Dan talks about how men in monogamous gay or straight relationships are still drawn to people other than their partner.

Yes, Dan utters his occasional platitudes about believing in bisexuality, but against everything else he's said, they seem like empty words. After all, when he repeatedly states that bisexuals should be avoided, that we are confused, and that we cannot commit, he sounds a lot like the people who say they accept homosexuality but still think gays should be denied equality.


For the most part, I live like a heterosexual person, even though I'm not. This isn't because of discrimination from straight people... it's because of discrimination of the gay and lesbian community. There isn't a "safe place" for bisexuals (in my experience). I'm not straight and I'm not gay, but society on both ends of the spectrum demands that I make a choice. I'm starting to realize that I'm basically living in the closet (though I consider myself "out"). And I don't have any place to turn to, because if you turn to the gay community, you encounter the same kind of bias.

In this video, bi activist Kyle Shickner speaks eloquently and honestly about Dan's biphobia, and the very real consequences it can have. I particularly like his point about a young bisexual person seeing the "It Gets Better" campaign and thinking they have found someone who really accepts them, only to then read Dan's negative comments regarding bisexuality, and how devastating that would be. (Note, the very last second of the video has an F bomb.)


LANGUAGE, BEWARE. PG-13.



Skipping ahead some more:

Dan, when it comes to bisexuality, you are wrong. You are wrong about bisexuals, you are wrong to treat us the way you do and you are certainly wrong to treat our outrage as some sort of childish tantrum. We have just as much reason to be angry with you for saying we should be avoided, that we can't be trusted and that we should stick to our own kind as the gay community has to be furious with the religious right for their campaign of oppression.

We can commit. We do commit. You even admit you know bisexuals who have committed, either to the same sex or the opposite. Your own words show your hypocrisy and the broken, twisted logic you use to back up your biphobic beliefs.

If it really is going to get better, Dan , then you are going to have to give up this cherished grudge of yours. Because if we're going to win this fight, we have to all stand together.




I hate to use the term "biphobia" because it is a misuse of the word "phobia." It isn't a phobia, it's discrimination. But it really is out-and-out rampant in society, and it absolutely disgusts me as someone who's supposed to be this lightning rod of tolerance and acceptance can be this blatantly hypocritical.

26 Replies to Why Dan Savage is a Jerk

re: Why Dan Savage is a Jerk en>fr fr>en
By Cienmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 6041, member since Tue Dec 20, 2005
On Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:27 AM
Edited by CienPorCientoPAZ (147923) on 2012-01-29 11:33:46 forgot the Q
I think he's given constructive advice to straight people looking to open up their relationships/marriages. But yeah, he is a colossally huge jerk when it comes to bisexual people, and every time someone calls him out on it, he comes back with "I'm sure I'll get a ton of emails from bisexuals saying I'm biphobic, but I'm totally not, so screw you all."

I wish I were surprised, but unfortunately I've been hearing about his biphobia and general crappiness as a person from various people in the LGBTQ community for a while now. :? It really does suck that someone like him is representing LGBTQ people, and it sucks that most straight people I talk to (or people who aren't really familiar with him) don't get why he's being so crappy. It also sucks that they don't understand what's wrong with the It Gets Better Project when I point out its huge, major flaws.
re: Why Dan Savage is a Jerk en>fr fr>en
By Heartmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 14987, member since Thu Feb 14, 2002
On Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:44 AM
Edited by Heart (21721) on 2012-01-29 11:55:26
I have to say, I don't identify as part of the "LGBT" community, for aforementioned reasons
re: Why Dan Savage is a Jerk en>fr fr>en
By Cienmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 6041, member since Tue Dec 20, 2005
On Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:33 AM
^I wasn't saying you do. I was saying that for many straight people (or at least, straight people who don't personally know any lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, or queer people), he represents the LGBTQ community, and I think that sucks. I only use the term "LGBTQ community" there because for many straight people I've encountered, that's how lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans, and queer people are seen-as one community with one catch-all term. (Disclaimer: No, I don't think that's accurate at all.) And the people I've personally heard from that also think he's a jerk are people that identify as being part of the LGBTQ community, so I know I can use that term when describing them. I wasn't referring to you in either instance.
re: Why Dan Savage is a Jerk en>fr fr>en
By Heartmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 14987, member since Thu Feb 14, 2002
On Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:54 AM
Didn't think you were. Was just throwing that out there. :) I'm glad to hear his jerkiness is starting to become well-known.
re: Why Dan Savage is a Jerk en>fr fr>en
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 11509, member since Thu Dec 16, 2004
On Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:17 PM
I have to say, I don't identify as part of the "LGBT" community, for aforementioned reasons
That's positively retarded. It's like saying you don't identify as part of the "straight" community because Rick Santorum is a douchebag.

In any case, I agree with him. I'm not saying bisexual men don't exist, but they're VERY rare. The VAST majority of young men who identify as "bi" eventually come out as gay. And usually, they leave a landscape of destruction in their wake. Almost all gay men go through a phase where they claim to be bisexual simply because they're in denial. Fact is, there just aren't a lot of self-identified bisexual men older than like 25. On the other hand, there are TONS of older bisexual women. But that's just not true for men. So call me biphobic if you want, but I always advise someone to be cautious of any young man who claims to be bisexual. I wouldn't say not to date him exactly, but I would say the odds of having a good relationship are not in your favor. This is not true of young bisexual women.
re: Why Dan Savage is a Jerk en>fr fr>en
By Heartmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 14987, member since Thu Feb 14, 2002
On Mon Jan 30, 2012 01:59 PM
panic wrote:

I have to say, I don't identify as part of the "LGBT" community, for aforementioned reasons
That's positively retarded. It's like saying you don't identify as part of the "straight" community because Rick Santorum is a douchebag.
No, it's saying I do not identify with a community that either denies my existence or perpetuates the very myths they are seeking to eliminate about gays from the straight community. That is, I'm not talking about just Dan Savage, but the majority of gays and lesbians. Bisexuals aren't welcome anywhere.
I also don’t really ID as part of gay culture because it trends overwhelmingly towards the homosexual side of things. And I’m not homosexual. There’s a different culture to homosexuality vs. bisexuality… there’s this girls-only club; this idea that if you’ve never slept with a guy you’re a “gold star” lesbian, as if that makes you better than anyone else; that bis are privileged because we can pass ourselves off as straight (again, a closet is a closet, and I hate when people assume that I’m straight); that bi girls aren’t to be trusted, because who knows, we might leave someone for a guy at a moment’s notice. …Um, no. If a bisexual leaves you for someone of the opposite gender, that’s no different than someone of the same gender leaving you for someone else of the same gender. That makes them a shitty person, but it doesn’t reflect on the entire sexuality as a whole, any more than a pedophilic homosexual priest reflects on all gay males.

Point is, when I see this

Image hotlink - 'https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQaao72SBTerhcF7gTxSpe98WFsLejjQxYR1yvbgwyFi7VepLAYWA'

I don’t feel safe. It’s partly past experience and partly just plain fact. The gay community doesn’t really lobby on behalf of the bi community. It’s much more of an us (homo) vs. them (hetero) mentality. So if you’re neither, you wind up standing awkwardly on the sidelines wanting to swan dive back into the closet.




In any case, I agree with him. I'm not saying bisexual men don't exist, but they're VERY rare. The VAST majority of young men who identify as "bi" eventually come out as gay. And usually, they leave a landscape of destruction in their wake. Almost all gay men go through a phase where they claim to be bisexual simply because they're in denial. Fact is, there just aren't a lot of self-identified bisexual men older than like 25.

Show me statistics and we can talk. From what I’ve seen, there is only a 1 or 2 percentage point difference between the amount of bisexual males vs. bisexual females.

Saying that the majority of bisexuals are just using it as a "transition" is, first of all, completely unsupported by any sort of scientific data. (That I know of; if you can find any, by all means, have at it.) If that’s the only claim you (general ‘you’) have to go on, well, you haven’t got a leg to stand on, so perhaps we should actually listen to the people who are telling us what’s going on. The whole point of sexual identity according to the LGBTBBQ* set is that no, it’s not a phase, it’s about what the person identifies with at the moment. Or it might be fluid, and change over the course of your life… in which case, WTF?

So if gays and lesbian say they’re born that way and didn’t choose their sexual identity, that they are not “going through a phase” and need to represent themselves as they really are - who are they to say that bisexuals are “going through a phase” and thus should be marginalized as a group? That we’re undateable, or slutty, or often pair up with the opposite gender? (No data for that last claim, either.) It’s completely & totally hypocritical.

Regardless, Savage doesn’t differentiate between male and female bisexuals, so he’s still a turd. And apparently he has been a turd to lesbians as well? Whatever.


*I remembered QUILTBAG** being the full acronym but then couldn’t remember what it stood for without googling, so I gave up.

**Questioning, Undecided (that’s a thing?), Intersex, Lesbian, Trans, Bisexual, Asexual, Gay
re: Why Dan Savage is a Jerk en>fr fr>en
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 11509, member since Thu Dec 16, 2004
On Mon Jan 30, 2012 03:17 PM
Show me statistics and we can talk. From what I’ve seen, there is only a 1 or 2 percentage point difference between the amount of bisexual males vs. bisexual females.
Which orifice did you pull that from? Cite or shut.

Regardless, Savage doesn’t differentiate between male and female bisexuals, so he’s still a turd.
Actually, he does. Jeez, did you even read the quotes you posted? He specifically says bisexual MEN. Did you watch the video on the page you linked? You don't know what you're talking about.
re: Why Dan Savage is a Jerk en>fr fr>en
By Heartmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 14987, member since Thu Feb 14, 2002
On Mon Jan 30, 2012 05:01 PM
Edited by Heart (21721) on 2012-01-30 17:01:53
panic wrote:

Regardless, Savage doesn’t differentiate between male and female bisexuals, so he’s still a turd.
Actually, he does. Jeez, did you even read the quotes you posted? He specifically says bisexual MEN. Did you watch the video on the page you linked? You don't know what you're talking about.

Direct quote from the article:

Questioner: I’m a lesbian, and my girlfriend is bisexual and wants to have a three-way with a man. This makes me nervous. What should I do?
DAN: Get yourself a refillable Xanax prescription, or get yourself an actual lesbian girlfriend.


Additionally, in this article that is quoted, Savage is clearly talking about both male AND FEMALE bisexuals, including when he makes the glorious statement that "Most adult bisexuals, for whatever reason, wind up in opposite-sex relationships. And most comfortably disappear into presumed heterosexuality."

I'm also fairly certain that the video, which I watched, said the same thing, but I'm not at a place where I can watch it again to double-check.

But anyway... you were saying?


panic wrote:

Show me statistics and we can talk. From what I’ve seen, there is only a 1 or 2 percentage point difference between the amount of bisexual males vs. bisexual females.
Which orifice did you pull that from? Cite or shut.

So only I, neither you nor Savage, has to cite?

Okay, fine...

These are all from different studies, located together on the FAQ of the Kinsey Institute.

In an analysis of national survey results from 2006-2008... the percentage reporting their sexual identity as bisexual is between 1% and 3% of males, and 2% to 5% of females.


In a national survey, 90% of men aged 18-44 considered themselves to be heterosexual, 2.3% as homosexual, 1.8% as bisexual, and 3.9% as 'something else'

Among women aged 18-44 in the same survey, 90% said they were heterosexual, 1.3% homosexual, 2.8% bisexual, and 3.8% as 'something else'


4% of men and 2% of women consider themselves homosexual while 5% of men and 3% of women consider themselves bisexual.



It's tricky to get stats on sexual identity because it is so convoluted, self-reported, and difficult to study. Nevertheless, most of the data I've seen shows similar results. The only study I saw giving a greater number for females than for males lumped homosexuality and bisexuality into one category.
re: Why Dan Savage is a Jerk en>fr fr>en
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 11509, member since Thu Dec 16, 2004
On Mon Jan 30, 2012 07:22 PM
Completely missing the point. As usual. And likely on purpose.

Those studies rely on self-reporting, which is an invalid methodology - especially in this case where people have an incentive to lie. They also contradict each other WILDLY.

The point dan savage is making is that most men who self-identify as bisexual eventually identify as gay. Which is completely true.

Get yourself a refillable Xanax prescription, or get yourself an actual lesbian girlfriend.
If you seriously can't tell this is a joke... Do you SERIOUSLY think he meant she should get a refillable xanax prescription? Do you SERIOUSLY think any doctor would give her a refillable xanax prescription for this reason? You can't possibly be that humorless. Even if you don't think it was funny, you can't POSSIBLY think that comment was meant seriously.
re: Why Dan Savage is a Jerk (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By Cienmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 6041, member since Tue Dec 20, 2005
On Mon Jan 30, 2012 07:30 PM
panic wrote:

Those studies rely on self-reporting, which is an invalid methodology - especially in this case where people have an incentive to lie.

How else would you (general "you") ever get data on sexuality, though? You can't just say "That person has sex with men, therefore he's gay/she's straight"; it doesn't work like that. If self-reporting is invalid, how else are we supposed to get any data?
re: Why Dan Savage is a Jerk en>fr fr>en
By Heartmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 14987, member since Thu Feb 14, 2002
On Mon Jan 30, 2012 07:35 PM
panic wrote:

The point dan savage is making is that most men who self-identify as bisexual eventually identify as gay. Which is completely true.

Which orifice did you pull that from? Cite or shut.
re: Why Dan Savage is a Jerk en>fr fr>en
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 11509, member since Thu Dec 16, 2004
On Mon Jan 30, 2012 08:04 PM
It's common knowledge. Many (if not most) gay men identify as bisexual at some point. If you actually had any (gay) friends, you'd know that.

How else would you (general "you") ever get data on sexuality, though? You can't just say "That person has sex with men, therefore he's gay/she's straight"; it doesn't work like that. If self-reporting is invalid, how else are we supposed to get any data?
healthland.time.com . . . Sexual arousal is a physical response, and it's easy to test.

That study was a repeat of a (seriously flawed) 2005 study that found ZERO bisexual males. The reason the 2005 study didn't work is because it relied on self-reporting. In that 2005 study, all the men who self-identified as bisexual were gay. www.nytimes.com . . .
These results are identical to a 1979 study that also found that all self-reported bisexual gay men were not aroused by women.

That said, the revised study (that does not rely on self-identification) does indicate that bisexuality exists in men. But all that research shows that men who self-report as bisexual are OVERWHELMINGLY homosexual.

So like I said, you don't know what you're talking about.
re: Why Dan Savage is a Jerk en>fr fr>en
By Heartmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 14987, member since Thu Feb 14, 2002
On Mon Jan 30, 2012 08:09 PM
Sexual arousal is... easy to test.

And I don't know what I'm talking about?
re: Why Dan Savage is a Jerk en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 7988, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Mon Jan 30, 2012 08:12 PM
I know this isn't a bisexual debate but I am curious about a few things regarding bisexual stuff.

The men I know are repulsed at the idea of having sex with another man. No matter how you cut it up, they just won't jump for it. The other handful I know think that having sex with a woman is repulsive. I have never personally met a male who liked the idea of both sexes.

On the other hand, I know a handful of straight women who have no problems kissing other girls for mans attention, threesomes, and experimentation.

I guess my question in a nutshell is why I run into so many straight women who have no problems with the idea of another women but I have never ran into a straight man who would be open to experimenting with another man.

I guess bisexuality is complicated because even I don't know what I would identify with. If I self reported, I would say that I was straight. I enjoy the company of males, I like men's bodies, I just like everything about males. That being said, I wouldn't mind kissing another female to catch the eye of my boyfriend. I think this is why self reporting could be complicated.
re: Why Dan Savage is a Jerk en>fr fr>en
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 11509, member since Thu Dec 16, 2004
On Mon Jan 30, 2012 08:20 PM
And I don't know what I'm talking about?
Yes, and apparently, you're proud of your ignorance. Read the links I provided, and you can see that sexual arousal IS easy to test. In fact, men's sexual arousal is OBVIOUS in many cases. Or maybe you just don't know what sexual arousal is. Which certainly would not surprise me.
re: Why Dan Savage is a Jerk en>fr fr>en
By Cienmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 6041, member since Tue Dec 20, 2005
On Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:35 PM
Edited by CienPorCientoPAZ (147923) on 2012-01-30 22:36:39
^Yeah, but even arousal alone doesn't tell you sexual orientation. It's just the physical response, it doesn't take into account the other factors that go into determining one's sexual orientation. A woman could find another woman attractive (e.g., in porn), but not consider herself gay. Arousal usually corresponds to orientation, sure; but really, the only way you'll get someone's definite orientation is if they tell you.
re: Why Dan Savage is a Jerk en>fr fr>en
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 11509, member since Thu Dec 16, 2004
On Mon Jan 30, 2012 11:40 PM
That's very PC of you, but it does not take into account the fact that teenage men face a lot of homophobia and societal pressure that encourage them to lie about their sexual orientation. Two of those studies I posted could not find a single man who identified as bisexual who was aroused by women. Not one. Of course, the most recent study found that bisexual men do exist, but it shows that men who identify as bisexual are OVERWHELMINGLY not attracted to women. That is a completely valid reason to tell girls who consider dating a bisexual-identified boy to be wary. Statistically speaking, he's probably gay.
re: Why Dan Savage is a Jerk en>fr fr>en
By madseasonPremium member Comments: 1975, member since Wed Jan 04, 2006
On Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:38 AM
Edited by madseason (148702) on 2012-01-31 00:41:05
Edited by madseason (148702) on 2012-01-31 00:43:42
Edited by madseason (148702) on 2012-01-31 00:44:46
panic wrote:

That's very PC of you, but it does not take into account the fact that teenage men face a lot of homophobia and societal pressure that encourage them to lie about their sexual orientation.


To elaborate on that, men get treated like crap almost across the board if they say they are gay or bisexual. They are often emasculated, labeled, and shunned by straight men. I think there may be more homophobia with men but I wouldn't know. My close friend swore up and down that he was straight, even to our gay friends. Then he came out as bi, flew to Scotland now lives with his boyfriend and is openly 100% gay. I think he was in denial and also very afraid.

Girls in certain circles are encouraged to pretend to be bisexual. It's considered hot and they get male attention. I know countless straight girls who claim to be bisexual when men who are aroused by lesbian relationships are present. They even go so far to kiss other girls, say they have a girlfriend, all that. But these same girls admit complete heterosexuality when just among women. For many girls, being bisexual is not as socially frowned upon as it is for guys.

I have known countless gay men and women. I know about eight girls who pretend to be bi (at nightclubs in front of men primarily), as well as one truly bisexual girl who has had long-standing sexual and emotional relationships with both genders.

I want to be clear: I'm not saying bisexuality isn't real. But it seems to be pretty rare. Having had this discussion with a lesbian friend, I gathered that a lot of people in the gay community figure that bisexual people are just afraid to come all the way out. Oftentimes saying one is bisexual is a transitory stage in their identity. A lot of gay people test the waters with a 'bisexual' identity so I think many just assume that is what is going on and the person is either gay, or perhaps exploring.
re: Why Dan Savage is a Jerk en>fr fr>en
By Heartmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 14987, member since Thu Feb 14, 2002
On Tue Jan 31, 2012 01:46 PM
And that is not okay.
re: Why Dan Savage is a Jerk en>fr fr>en
By Kekoamember has saluted, click to view salute photos Comments: 8863, member since Sat Jul 19, 2003
On Tue Jan 31, 2012 01:59 PM
It's not okay, but it does happen. I know two incredibly sex-positive bisexual men (as in they're not going to lie about it to anyone, much less a friend). One is attracted to both genders but slightly more to women, one is attracted to both genders but slightly more to men. I have, however, met MANY gay men who initially identified as bisexual to "ease the blow."

As for suggesting that a large number of bisexuals end up in opposite-gender relationships, it seems pretty straightforward to me, the statistical probability of finding a member of the opposite gender to date is much higher than that of the same gender.

Last point, I thought Dan Savage was spot-on in his advice to the lesbian and the threesome. It's disrespectful to pressure your partner to do something with someone they're not attracted to. If I'm dating a straight guy and harp on him continually that we should have a threesome with another man, that's disrespectful and inappropriate.
re: Why Dan Savage is a Jerk en>fr fr>en
By panicmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 11509, member since Thu Dec 16, 2004
On Tue Jan 31, 2012 04:06 PM
Well, let's be honest here... There are also quite a few young women who only self-identify as bisexual to get attention. They date men exclusively. In their DDN diary, they write about men exclusively. By any objective standard, they're completely straight. They only call themselves bisexual to seem more interesting (as if). So when they complain about being oppressed because of their fake sexual orientation, it's kind of hard to take them seriously.
re: Why Dan Savage is a Jerk en>fr fr>en
By madseasonPremium member Comments: 1975, member since Wed Jan 04, 2006
On Tue Jan 31, 2012 04:13 PM
^ Exactly. That is almost commonplace in some circles.
re: Why Dan Savage is a Jerk en>fr fr>en
By Heartmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 14987, member since Thu Feb 14, 2002
On Tue Jan 31, 2012 04:35 PM
If anyone other than panic has something they would like to comment on or ask me, feel free. I'm modding that last post and I'll be ignoring anything else he says.
re: Why Dan Savage is a Jerk en>fr fr>en
By Cienmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 6041, member since Tue Dec 20, 2005
On Tue Jan 31, 2012 07:03 PM
Edited by CienPorCientoPAZ (147923) on 2012-01-31 20:04:30 quotey quote
In their DDN diary, they write about men exclusively.

Wow. Even for you, this is awfully low.
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