Hi,

I know there's already a similar thread about this posted, but I need even more basic information. Yes, I was pre-professional in 3 schools--and I somehow managed that even though I can only achieve a single pirouette and can't do fouettes to save my life. (I got closer to Italian fouettes than normal ones!)

My problem is this: early on in middle school or so, before I got professional ballet teachers, I was never taught *how* to turn, because my studio focused on jazz--those were the classes where people learned to turn--and I never took jazz. I was told during my ballet classes to "just do it," and if I wanted extra instruction, I could pick up a jazz class. On top of it all, the teacher had her favorites, and let's just say I wasn't one of them, because--of course--she was the main jazz teacher and just did ballet because she had to.

Well, eventually my technique and so on got cleaned up, but I've never been able to turn. Even double turns in flat shoes are rare. I know it's mostly a mental issue, but I never received the basic mechanics of turns, and when I try to spot for a double or more, my head freaks out and shakes back and forth instead of spotting properly. I have no idea how to spot in a turn that goes 'round more than once. (Also, saying "just do it" clearly hasn't gotten me anywhere.)

I have read the other thread, and it helped, but like I said, I need tips for absolute beginners who have just started turns away from the barre. The only turning I can do is when I'm doing moving turns-pique turns, etc. I'm good at that.

I have a ridiculous wish to be able to turn fabulously. In my dreams, I spin maybe 50 times and then decide when I want to stop. In real life.... two spins is crazy business.

Can anyone help me?

To be honest, I could write down hundered of tips for turning, spotting and so on. But I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't help at all since there is no way to fix serious issues by giving random advice on the internet. Especially because nobody here can see you and notice if you are doing something wrong and what you are doing wrong. Besides that I think that you're focussing too much on your story. There are adult people out there who never did a single turn in their life and they learn it anyways (I for example started with 25 and turn clean doubles in every direction, sometimes Triples on my good side) others had the same training but aren't able to turn a clean single, but have other strengths, like for example they jump perfectly.
I have the feeling that you're searching for excuses and this whole story that you never learned a proper turning technique is somehow blocking you. Don't think to much about that.
If I were in your shoes, I would talk to my teacher, asking for advice, maybe take a few private classes which are focussing on balance, turning, spotting and so on. Only your teacher can see you and help you to fix it.

Wow. Why would I search for excuses? Intentional or not, this came across as kind of rude. :-s

I've tried working with teachers individually. It helps some, but I still have a mental block. I was asking more for advice on how to remove the mental block.

If you didn't like what I posted, you didn't need to finish reading it or respond.

Jig, I do believe WoodPigeon offered you some valid advice, and I see no indication that she didn't like your post. In fact, I think you just didn't like her reply

I think what she was getting at was that your back-story doesn't matter, and from what you write, it seems that you are letting it hold you back, however subconsciously. It's not that you're making excuses to others as to why you can't turn - it's that you are stuck believing you can't turn, because you have convinced yourself that since you never learned it properly then it will never come easily for you. In reality, though, there are only two things you must do to develop your turning abilities:

1. Learn how to turn correctly, since you never were taught. As WoodPigeon mentioned, this would be something your teacher would have to work with you on in person (the exception being if you had specific questions, in which case I could offer an answer based on my knowledge having studied Vaganova technique).

2. Get over the mental block you said you have. The thing is though, I think the only mental block you have is you THINKING you have a mental block! Does this make sense? What I mean to say is that it seems that you are so convinced that you cannot turn, that you trap yourself into a situation where every time a turn comes you automatically think, "Oh, wait - I can't turn!" I think - in your case specifically - your 'mental block' will dissipate as soon as you have established knowledge of how to execute a turn (as well as, of course, the muscle memory that will come with time as a result of practicing turns in an academically and technically correct way).

Advice I can offer you, besides repeating that all you need to do is learn turning technique:

Don't even aim for a double if you can't do a clean single and hold the balance at the end.

But before you even go for a single, try this exercise; from preparation, go up to passe as if you were in a turning position, but don't turn - balance. Close. Prepare, and do a quarter turn. Do a half turn. Do 3/4 of a turn. Do a full turn. And so on...

Another reason we can't teach you turning technique very well over the internet - unless, again, you have specific questions - is the difference in approaches to turning among different methods of ballet. Whatever I tell you comes from Vaganova technique - it's all academically correct, but if you show up to class doing something the way I say and you study RAD, your teacher might tell you to do it differently. So take it for what you will, but here are some basic turning principles that - at least the way we are taught in Vaganova - ALWAYS apply, for any pirouette:

Quarter turn is when everything should be in place; that is, your position for your legs and arms, be it in passe, attitude, arabesque, a la seconde, etc., reaches its position no later than a quarter of a turn. It's a quick motion - no crawling up to the position.

Your upper body must be held as if you were wearing a corset. Your upper body is what helps you get around and holds you up for more rotations. You don't need to take much momentum for even a triple pirouette if you are placed correctly. The opposite arm, coming in quickly to its correct position, will help you make those revolutions.

Coming down from a turn requires as much thought and control as going up to the turn and while you are executing the turn itself. Academically, it is best for you to study turns with a balance at the end. Say you are doing one single pirouette - do the single rotation, but then hold passe en face before closing. And when you close - close with the same proper technique as if you were doing sissone simples en pointe; that is, there is a bit of a lift of the working leg before it begins its decent, and the path of its decent is right along the back of the working leg. In slow motion, you should be able to see the supporting leg staying straight as the working leg comes down behind it into fifth position; it does go through fifth position demi pointe as you close down to fifth in plie. In fact, in Vaganova, we begin learning this motion broken down, where we literally close in fifth on demi pointe for one count before closing completely in plie.

Your thought process should be "up, up, up", not "around, around, around." You will get around, if you get up. There is no way around it (no pun intended!)

Your preparation matters very much. Let's say we are going to do a pirouette en dehor to the right side - begin in a SHORT fourth position, left foot in front. Left foot is in plie, right foot is behind and is straight. Your weight is on your left [supporting] foot. Left arm is second position allonge, right arm is first position allonge. As you plie on both legs (at which point your weight will be more evenly distributed between both feet, but still slightly more so on the supporting - left - leg), the right arm extends to the side, you push off (UP!) from both feet and gather your arms into first (or third, or whatever) and reach the height of your position by quarter turn. You do not need to turn in order to turn. I mean, you don't need to try to make a turning motion. You will get enough momentum to turn you by your left arm closing, your supporting foot going up to a highest demi pointe and straightest knee, and your working foot coming up quickly and pushing up through your foot/pointe. Hold your balance and close your turn in the way I described above.

Well, there you go. That was the closest, I think, that you can get to teaching someone to turn over the internet!

Best of luck. I would be happy to answer any more questions regarding technique.

noachka wrote:

You do not need to turn in order to turn.

This! If you try to "wind up" and force your body to make a turning motion, you will almost always put too much force into your turn and end up off balance.

One of my teachers used to make a distinction between "turning" (a controlled, well-placed turn) and "spinning" (what happens when you just throw yourself around with as much momentum as possible and hope you make it). In that context, you want to aim for the turn, not for the spin.

At any rate, I agree with pretty much everything noachka said. I'd also emphasize the following:

- the preparation is the most important part of the turn. If you don't prepare properly (e.g. not turned out, weight too far back, rear end sticking out, etc.), then you won't make it into the correct position to turn properly either.

- once you're up in passe, alignment is everything. Can you do a passe releve and balance in a properly-aligned position?

- if you can't do a clean single, don't aim for doubles. You'll just reinforce bad habits. Work toward clean singles, and when you can do a nice single where you end "suspended" in passe for a moment before coming down, then you can start trying for doubles. If you can't do a clean single, do passe releve balance, quarter turns, and half turns until you develop the technique.

- Noachka didn't really talk about spotting, but I thought I'd comment on it since you specifically mentioned it. You should (again) make sure you're able to spot correctly in single turns. Start by facing the mirror. Turn around slowly (shuffle your feet under you or something), and keep your eyes on your image in the mirror until you can't any longer. Then rotate your head quickly around so that you see yourself again, and finish the turn. Do this enough times that you are comfortable with the head positions, and then speed the motion up. When you are doing turns in class, you might not be able to watch yourself in the mirror, but you can pick some other object to spot.

Once you get your single turns down, the "rhythm" of your spot needs to be slightly different for a double than for a single, since your head has to keep moving after the first turn. The temptation is just to speed up the spot so that you can get around quicker and get two turns in. But it doesn't work like this! If you spot too quickly, then your head gets "ahead" of your body, and this will throw you off. Instead, try to really stay focused on the thing you're spotting (whether yourself or some other object in the room), and concentrate on timing the rhythm of your spot to the rhythm of your turn. I usually find that I have to spot slower than I think I need to.

If you're at a school where you have professional teachers, however, by far the best thing to do is to ask for a bit of one-on-one time where they can watch you turn and help correct your technique. Really, truly, seriously. We can only offer general advice when we can't actually see you in person, but your teachers will be able to target their corrections to the mistakes that you are actually making.

JigEnPointe wrote:

Wow. Why would I search for excuses? Intentional or not, this came across as kind of rude. :-s

I've tried working with teachers individually. It helps some, but I still have a mental block. I was asking more for advice on how to remove the mental block.

If you didn't like what I posted, you didn't need to finish reading it or respond.

Hi JigEnPointe, I didn't mean to be rude, english isn't my native language and I see that "searching for excuses" sounds rude, but I really didn't mean it this way. Noachka pretty much summarized what I really meant.

Well, thank you, everyone--I can say that hearing all this from a Vaganova perspective is... pretty much amazing. I knew hardly any of this, and when you think about it as aerodynamics, it actually makes a lot of sense!

I also took the time (after posting this, lol) to read other articles on turning that I found, which helped me a little, but not as much as what has been written here, and what's here is much shorter than what I read! I found what some of my problems likely are, and I can't wait to try what was written here. Thank you so much!

I want to ask a teacher where I'm dancing now, but they oftentimes don't have time at all because they have so many classes, and though they want to help, there's not much opportunity. I've gotten a little help, but still needed that painstakingly basic, in-depth explanation.

Wood--it's alright; honestly, I should be able to recognize by now when someone just isn't a native speaker of English, as I've been living with people who aren't for almost 3 years now. Sorry I bit your head off; I'm just a really hard and passionate worker, and I don't appreciate when people purposely accuse me of making excuses. Clearly, now, you did not do this. *hugs*

Noachka - that was really helpful. My teacher has said pretty much what you said "think up not around" but for some reason the way you put it makes a lot of sense. I also have a mental block when it comes to turns. I used to be able to do them beautifully but now at almost 53 years, I think "BROKEN HIP"! Actually I find turns en pointe easier than demi.

You are very welcome!

Jig - I would suggest that you schedule a private lesson with your instructor. Private lessons are best reserved only for two cases; the first is for preparation for a competition/other similar endeavor; the second is in order to set aside a formal length of time dedicated to fixing one or more specific problems. You most definitely fall into the second category! You may need only one lesson to find that you gained a new, sufficient understanding of how to approach turns, and after that one private you will likely find that you are able to apply and practice the principles you learned from the private in your day-to-day classes.

I would also suggest that you take classes with other teachers whenever possible. Master classes, for example, are wonderful opportunities. I say this not for the reason that other teachers will present things in a different way that would enrich your understanding of technique - although of course that in itself is a very valid reason! - but because even being in a different environment can make all the difference in the world!

I will give an example. I was scared of turns for a while several years ago - I had surgery on my ankle in November (this was years back) and was just unable to shake my fear of turning (specifically en pointe) for months afterward. Only in June, when I went to my first summer intensive, did that fear seem to just disappear - all on its own! I believe it was the change in environment, and the desire/need to show new teachers/classmates what I can do. I just went for it, and from then on I've not been scared to turn.

You just have to try different things. It's funny that I'm writing this now, because no that I think about it, "trying things differently" (almost in a way in which I would not expect it should be tried), is exactly the advice I got in my own thread!

And after having written that to you - I so badly want to go take a master class somewhere, to get over my own turning mental block. I feel as if I could just walk into a class and whip out a 5-rotation pirouette, easy! Because the teacher doesn't know me, so not only is it a fresh start/clean slate (ie. they don't have the preconceived notions of any of my recent struggles with turns, and so they are not 'expecting' me to fail), but also because I would want to show them my best side. Too bad I'm broke

Sounds great! I'll see if any of my teachers have the time for a private class.

I forgot to mention, but en dedans is SOOOO much easier for me than en dehor. Isn't this supposed to be weird?

En Dedan and En Dehor are completely different it's not weird at all, most people are comfortable at one or the other. They differ so greatly people write books about it. The only similarity is spotting. It's not uncommon to be "better" at one way of turning.

Mental blocks are also common, so don't let it get to you it will pass. Dance is mostly mental thinking before the physical even happens because your brain tells your body what to do. Believing in yourself goes a long way. Getting discouraged is natural. I say to my students "If you feel like you need to cross yourself and pray to God before you pirouette, don't pirouette because it won't work." Psyching yourself out doesn't work to your advantage, so don't do it.

My advice is to actually fool around in the studio with turns because as we all know the best things happen when no one is looking and there is no pressure. I did 4 once (granted they were horribly spastic) but I still turned multiple times and surprised myself! The less stress and calmer you are, the better the turn will be I guarantee it.

~brooke~