^ Girly, you are YOUNG. Of course it will be harder to relate to older women who are at different stages in their lives. Maybe spending more time around younger couples and women will help you see that.
I am engaged and childless and my good friend is in a serious relationship and childless. But she is 17 years older than me and oftentimes it is hard to relate to her concerns about life, her career, her plans. So the distance between us is just age and life experience. I think that may be what you are encountering.

Every woman does this? Or might, MIGHT, you be overthinking it? I've had funny looks from people for getting married as young as 26 and for not wanting kids. Therefore every woman treats me like a second class citizen for getting married/getting married younger than them/getting married but not wanting kids/whatever.

Not everybody lives their life the exact same way. Sometimes people are completely unpeturbed by others' life choices. Sometimes they want to make comment. We are never going to please anybody so let's not even bother.

There are a load of women out there who would applaud you, be jealous of you, admire you for not wanting to get married. If you're fixating on it though, you're not going to hear any of them.

If you're fixating on it though, you're not going to hear any of them.

QFT.

Madseason Thats probably what this is all about isn't it? As I said, I don't know have any close friends between 23-28 nor do I know many couples in that age group. I know a bunch of 18- 21 year olds, and a bunch of 30-50 year olds.

Going to brunch with coworkers who are 30-40 talking about report cards, playdates are probably not relatable to me 21 year old me huh?

I feel like I am stuck between two worlds of being a professional and a young college student. I can't go and "hang out" because I have a full time job..yet I am not old enough to be discussing playdates. I go to evening night classes, and the majority of my classmates are older students.

I wish they had "rent a kid" that I can borrow just for a small while

You might also remember that just because someone comments on another's lifestyle that doesn't mean they ever give it a second thought after that. It might be just an "oh really" passing thought and then, whoosh! they are on to thinking about - what will they make for dinner, do they need gas in the car, is it their turn to provide snacks for the soccer team?? Not everybody over analyzes things like this. You might consider just letting it go.

kk~

Oh yes- I am in the same boat. Everyone I know is older or younger than me and talking about clubbing or baby poop. It can be hard to relate. But live your life at your own pace. God forbid you look back and go 'Man, I wish I had embraced my twenties and been young for a while.'

I also have to say, having spent time in foster care and being very familiar with the system: Some foster kids who are 12-13 are WAY more work than a kid who is 2. Foster kids come with a lot of issues. They often need medical care, therapy, and structure and boundaries beyond what a normal kid would need. They have adjustment and trust issues and many are already over being told what to do by strangers when they are teens. Many will not run into your arms and love you endlessly which is what every do-gooder foster parent I had expected me to do. I would be kind and sweet and cheery but it was all a front. I hated most of them because I was like a little 'look how generous we are to take in this F*d up kid' badge- or a paycheck. I also had foster parents that totally ignored me and had me in their home for the checks. So I learned that the only reason people took me in was for money, therefore I didn't trust them. In hindsight, I was a total brat. I also knew of a super calm, sweet kid from the same county who tried to burn down his FP's home. Scary.

Take a lot of parenting and foster-parent classes before you take in a teenage foster kid.

I don't want to discourage you, but you should know that foster kids are almost all 'special needs' be it physical or psychological issues. Being a foster parent can be a thankless and very difficult job.

^ Oh boy Madseason, isn't that the truth! I have friends who adopted two special needs kids one from Russia, one from Poland. The Russian girl is an angel and a delight to everyone who knows her. The Polish boy is a complete and total handful and has to have special couseling and is a LOT of work for this family. More than they ever imagined!

kk~

It's just really hard for me to wrap my head around the concept of putting off something that you have in your heart to do until someone else is dead. That's more than compromise, that's waiting for your real life to start until someone else's life ends. And there is no guarantee that you'll even get to do it later like you are planning. I think you are out of touch with what YOU really want and need in your life. Instead I hear that you are oh so grateful that your player man gave up models for you that you are willing to put away the dream of MOTHERHOOD. And I STILL think that deep inside you want to get married. I respect your political stance but I think that often you are out of touch with your true emotions and feelings, like you are too quick to bury them and not deal with them because you have this sure thing that you don't want to lose.

D4JWell, I guess it isn't a huge compromise to me because I don't really want to be a mother badly enough to end my relationship .I would say being a mother to me is as important to me as buying a house or getting a dog. I can either take it or leave it. I had more passion for starting my own business or shopping, then having a kid.

The day my man says he doesn't support my business is the day I leave him. I think my list of importance would be
1. My boyfriend and my family.
2. My job.
3. My school.
4. My friends.
5. Ballet.
6. My Dog.
7. Travelling.
8. Having a nice clean home.
9. Exploring the city.
10. Raising a kid.( maybe)

I would much have a nicely decorated house then a kid at this point. It isn't that I hate kids or anything, I plan on adopting one once my mothering hormones kick in. Children and talking about children are annoyances to me right now. I love my students and the kids I nanny, but I don't like the idea of a crying bundle of joy limiting my traveling, exploring taking money from me. I bet this is going to change once I get older, but I am far too selfish to be raising any kids anytime soon.
I think it may become a "compromise is far too great" thing at 30 or 40. Right now it isn't at all.

"I think you are out of touch with what YOU really want and need in your life."

I think it is a good thing you brought up and I really thought of things I want my life to be.

I want to live in a Penthouse in the financial district of my city. I want to be a C-Level executive and work to become rich I also want to have my own business as a hobby, because I really love the process of starting my own business. I would probably teach ballet casually because I enjoy it quite a bit.

If I do decide to have kids if I get rich, I would set up a college trust fund in their name, send them to ballet, piano, ice skating, and gymnastics. I would probably let them chose something they also wanted to do. I would hire a nanny to take care of the kids so I can be free to travel the world for business and pleasure. I like the idea of financially supporting kids I take on, because my parents never gave me that chance.

I think the things I am super passionate are ballet, my boyfriend, traveling, working and becoming a Millionaire.

I have spent the past 30 minutes reading this, and I'm baffled. I'll use bullet points.

-Your "no marriage" argument is crap. I know many people who are deeply dedicated to the idea of not marrying until it's legal for all. My best friend has the ring, donates money to the organization (the name eludes me), does the rallying for them...and her longterm boyfriend is on the same page. They are moving cross-country together, he is putting her through grad school, they plan for a house and children...with no benefits. That's the ENTIRE POINT of not marrying out of solidarity with the LGBTQ society. They'll put each other in their wills and establish power of attorney, but that's it. No commitment ceremonies, no other legal benefits, nada. You're trying to be married without sucking it up and getting a marriage certificate.

-You have no idea what it's like to be a mother. Being a dance teacher doesn't mean anything. Being a nanny doesn't mean anything. I would know, I'm a nanny, and I fully admit that while I might have a bit more in common with parents than a non-nanny, I'm clueless. I've nursed boo-boos, cleaned up puke, done homework, gone to doctors appointments, all of it...but I'm not a mother, have no idea what it's like to be a mother and I never try to pretend because I am aware of how insulting it is to actual parents.

-You care entirely too much what people think and you are wasting your youth. I know young married couples, some with kids. They're awesome. They make a point to have fun. They embrace their responsibilities, but they also take time to act their age and get along with their peers. While I do think large age differences are hella creepy, that's not the point; you are trying to live like a 45 year old, planning for your partner's death. Of course people don't take your relationship seriously, older individuals recall the immaturity of ALL 21 year olds (even the most mature are still significantly less mature than they will be at 31, 41, 51) and your peers are in college or starting out in the working world, where date nights consist of kicking your roommate out to order pizza and have sex on the couch while watching The Hangover.

I posted in the other thread that I don't think that marriage inherently changes a relationship, I think that for many people, it's the passing of time in the relationship. However, I do want to get married and I do think that 99.9% of the time, it DOES change something, even if that something is only how other people react to my relationship with my partner. I'm definitely progressive in that I'd never consider marrying someone without living together first, I'd never change my name, I'm totally okay with the idea of having children out of wedlock, etc.

Yet, marriage is easy. You instantly validate your relationship (for better or worse) in the eyes of society. If the lifelong commitment was already there (as I would hope it was), that part doesn't change. You sign a piece of paper, are immediately bestowed with rights. People immediately view your partnership as more valid. If you do have children (or a house, or debt, or pets, or property, or anything), neither of you can cut and run while screwing the other one over. No matter how much money you throw at lawyers to give you some of the benefits of marriage, or how many commitment ceremonies you have, or whatever, you're not married. You're trying to serve us spam and tell us it's a ham dinner.

Kekoa. My argument isn't crap at all
Gay people can have a commitment ceremony if they want to have one. Who in the world is stopping them from having one? As for legal benefits whats stopping them from putting the mortgage together, combining bank accounts, power of attorney etc. As I said, marriage is a religious thing for me and I don't want state and religions to mix. I can't cut out and run either when we have both things in our name. Neither one of us can screw each other over and just pick up.

I already said I don't know what it is like to be a mother, but I have common sense when it comes to certain aspects of my classroom. Bringing in a child with chicken pox to my class, doesn't fly. I don't care if this is your child, and I don't know any better, just because I am not a mother. Did her common sense fly out the window because she pushed a baby from her body? Raising a child shouldn't give women an upper edge when it comes to a teacher in a classroom. I am a leader of that classroom and the lack of a child shouldn't stand in the way of a judgement call on my part.

I don't know why this is becoming a marriage/no marriage debate. There is already a thread on that in secrets, which is why I came on here asking for advice on how to not be treated poorly by married women with children in my work place.

YumYumDoughnut wrote:

I came on here asking for advice on how to not be treated poorly by married women with children in my work place.

Stop focussing on it. There will always be people who treat you poorly in some aspect of your life, the best you can do is rise above it and feel confident in yourself.

Erin.
::righteous babe::

^ Thanks Odessa.

I think you are brave for being so open about your two boyfriends without fear of any precautions from society.

I really need to go find some single people to mingle with who are in their mid 20's. I think once I find a new set of friends, I wouldn't be so insecure when I have no emotional connection to baby vaccinations or something.

Okay, now all I'm getting from this is money, money, money. Every response of yours mentions either rich, wealth, money, finances, or some other synonym for money. Go back and read over everything you've written, cause I have, and it seems like that's all you care about. And as someone who grew up around it all, it's not all it's cracked up to be. Go outside, get some fresh air, and relax. Stressing constantly about everything is no way to live, and it took me a long tiime to realize that. Life also changes a lot in your 20s, even year to year. I've definitely changed it up a lot since I was 21.

I think you are brave for being so open about your two boyfriends without fear of any precautions from society.

I'm not that brave. My Dad doesn't know about Second Boyfriend, for instance. And I am not sure I'll ever tell him. There's no reason to, and he wouldn't understand anyway. You know - I'm confident in that I know what I want and I am happy with my life, but I also censor what I tell certain people in order to avoid misunderstandings.

I really need to go find some single people to mingle with who are in their mid 20's. I think once I find a new set of friends, I wouldn't be so insecure when I have no emotional connection to baby vaccinations or something.

YES. Quit hanging out with middle-aged women and go make some girlfriends!

Erin.
::righteous babe::

^ I'm a Finance minor, everything I study is related to money. I love reading economic books, looking over accounts payables, and thinking of financial investments. I am not sure if it is the number aspect of wealth/money that interests me...but I have always been fascinated with money itself and also the privileges that go along with it.

You growing up with money may not understand my stance, but as much love as my parents gave me, it will never make up for the lack of money. They promised if I did great in school, they would provide me with a college education. They made that promise year after year after year, yet when the time came, they broke their promise. If they would have actually saved proper and not spent it on useless stuff ( buying a flat new screen tv for example) they could have kept their promise to their child. I wouldn't have to work so hard to make a life for myself. Do you know how hard it is going to be to save for graduate school when they didn't give me a cent in living costs or tuition? I counted on their promise to help me out, but they never came through. I never had the chance to go to prom, hang out with friends or join cheerleading in high school. I starting working at 15 and never had to time to do anything but work and school. I know everything you see on my posts is related to money but that is because the things I want to do in life cost money. I want to travel with my boyfriend ( money) I want to start a business ( money), I want to be able to provide for the eduction of teens ( money) dog ( costs money)

I understand in reality that money isn't everything, but emotionally I don't feel so. I feel that even if I had all the love in the world, it still wouldn't make up for the stress of being buried in bills.

Sara, thanks for your advice on stressing out. I really need to stop stressing out in general. I have a job interview tomorrow and if it goes well, I can stop stressing out a tiny bit about my financial situation.

But the stuff that Munk is describing isn't enough to choose to get married over, imo. I mean, you are always going to have to deal with being young and less experienced and childless. It's part of paying your dues and working your way up.

"Paying your dues" was never described to me as being treated like you're inferior...too many young workers are experiencing that. It's not enough to be one of the lower paid people with a higher amount of work to do, I guess?

And as for gossip - you have to have a thicker skin! I'm not saying that it's ok for people to gossip, but we all know that it is a fact of life and you just have to deal with it. If things are bad enough at a job where you are losing out on promotions and other goodies just because you are single then you either take steps to deal with it or leave and get away from that toxic environment. Why would anyone complain about the shoddy way people act and how they treat others and then consider JOINING that same group in order to be accepted? That's just weak!

Believe it or not, it really IS just a matter of standing up for your life and how you want to live it. It is really IS just that simple and just that difficult.

So says you. It's also that simple to piss off the wrong person and be completely blackballed within the organization...it's worth keeping quiet and sighing inwardly to keep a position that will lead to where I actually want to be. I also had to buy a new wardrobe to work here even though it's nothing like what I would ever choose myself...EGADS, how weak! Perhaps I should pull out the line of thinking that people keep using...you aren't in this position so you can't understand. I'm very lucky to have gotten where I am but because of it I'm not a member of "the club." If I'm going to slide up the promotion ladder and get to what I really want to do I have to keep MY personal things out of here even if everybody else brings theirs up. So I'll laugh at the dumb jokes and refrain from commenting on the really crazy stuff...oh well. Drat, gotta go get in the car. This thread can continue exploding without me...

I've been in that position when I was younger, Munk, so I DO understand where you and YYD are coming from. It's why I wrote 'take steps to deal with it', meaning don't moan about your mistreatment, DO something about it! If you get no assistance from management or your boss or whatever internal affairs department there is for being discriminated against for you age, then try that. And then I also suggested that you could leave. In other words, most of the time you don't HAVE to be stuck where you are in life, you can be pro-active.

@Munk,When I did an internship at a firm downtown, I had to keep quiet in the fear of my personal life getting me in the butt. A handful of the 40 year olds were quite open about how a couple should live together after marriage, the youth are corrupted etc. I guess I was considered a "youth" even if I was outperforming their quotas.

@Erin I have currently been dropping in local pubs to try and meet people more my age. I am done with school at 9:45 PM each night, so a couple of us younger girls have been going out for some drinks. I really like your comment about finding new girlfriends though. I need to make more of an effort to do that.

@ MUNK again. I had to laugh at all the husband jokes, soccer mom playdate stories and just try and remain friendly, I didn't want to be blacklisted in any way. I went to social outings such as brunches, Saturday Afternoon picnic etc. Looking back, I probably should have gone to Happy Hour where the single people are more likely to go.

There are a few things that I am confused about as well. I know you say that you don't want to get married because not all couples can, and you also said that you don't like marriage because of the religious aspect. To me it just sounds like something someone would say to justify why they are not already married, instead of something someone would say as to why they will never get married even if the option presented itself. Right now you know that you can never get married to your boyfriend, I have a feeling that your opinion would be drastically different if when you met your boyfriend he was open to getting married. Maybe not, I don't know, but that is what it seems like from this end. Some people may not take you seriously because (like people have brought up in this thread) in your life, oftentimes your opinions change. Not talking about you in specific, but many single women go from not caring about getting married to wanting to get married. That happened for me when I was about 24. I wanted to be a career woman, I wanted to live through my 20s without being tied down to a relationship, and I wanted to make a name for myself without someone else being attached to me. That all changed, emotions hit me over the head and I had no idea where they came from, all of a sudden getting married and having kids sounded amazing.

I am 26 and single right now, so not much older than you, and I have a feeling that not all people are judging you because you don't want to get married, they may be questioning whether or not at 21 you really understand that your feelings could change. My point is that you never know if in 3 years you might really want to have that marriage certificate and start the family portion of your life. It could happen and no amount of planning what you are going to do when you are 50 is going to change those feelings if they come. As someone in your age group that could be a potential friend if we knew each other in RL I think that I would have trouble understanding you and relating to you as well. That has nothing to do with you not being married, of course, because I am single as well. It seems to be because you are very calculated about the whole thing. I am a planner as well, I get wanting to have things controlled and planned, but there is a certain aspect about married that isn't about a calculated decision and is more about emotion. For some reason you don't seem to have that. I am not saying there is anything wrong with you, I think that it can throw people off. As women so many of the things we talk about with our friends is our feelings and emotions. To have you in the group talking about financial calculations and paperwork, it just sort of brings down the mood for those of us who have an emotional response to marriage. I am not being stereotypical and saying that is all women talk about, but it is a part of it, and I think you find yourself not being able to contribute to that. I hope you get what I am saying and take no offense to it. I will try to think of an example. For instance, I don't want a dog, with my previous boyfriend it was a small contention between us. He would say things like "but they are so loveable and friendly and they keep you company and are fun to be around" and I would say things like "they cost money, they smell, you have to plan your day to take care of them and make sure that if you move you can take them with you." I never said that dogs weren't the things that he thought they were, I was just very unemotional about it and didn't understand why someone would want something just because of the way it made them feel and could ignore all of the "icky" stuff about it.

Maybe you don't talk about these things a lot in RL the way you do on DDN, I don't know. I just know that if you were to ask me if I looked down on you for not being married, I would say that I don't judge you but I have a hard time relating to you. I guess my point is that it is probably a mixture of people not understanding your stand point and not being able to relate to you that makes you feel like an outcast sometimes. The thing is, I am not saying this to try to make you feel bad about your decisions or that you will never fit in or be respected. You will. There is a career and friends out there that you will fit in with. The careers I have been searching to get in are ones that appreciate the single lifestyle, as they need people to be flexible. I have not ever felt such harsh treatment in the work place for being single. I am still thought of as fairly young though, I think that has more to do with it than anything. You are 21, I don't think people are judging you because of your lack of husband, they see you as someone with less experience than them. As for why it might be harder to form friendships in the work place, that is what I have been talking about

Just remember as much as you feel like people don't understand your viewpoint, they likely feel like you don't understand theirs. How many married people here are chiming in that "it isn't just a piece of paper" and you don't seem to understand their side of it at all. That is ok, but don't waste so much time trying to be accepted by that group of people. You won't understand one another no matter how much you want to.

Jeez, I don't know where some of you work, but it feels like 1950 in this thread. Blacklisting? Having to keep quiet? It's a BOYFRIEND for goodness sake, not a big terrible secret. You guys need to get out of whatever strange worlds you work in!

Sacrificing one's bachelorhood and not sleeping with other people is not a compromise. That is the choice one makes when they want a serious relationship. Clearly he values you more than that other lifestyle. That doesn't mean you should be grateful and that he should be commended for that. That is what people of character do when they have a serious relationship. You stop screwing around.

Renae, it does really feel like young mothers can't talk about anything but their children.

Because that is the most important and life changing thing in their life. You can't compare that to your dog or your boyfriend. Either way...you are LOOKING for that and are waiting for them to bring it up so you can be right about that.

Money is great, but it sounds like there is something else missing...sort of like a void you are trying to fill. Money isn't going to do that. Any self esteem issues, feelings of insecurity, uncertainty with your career in the future will still exist even if you have a a million dollars. Money will pay bills, but it won't fix some of your problems. It won't make your relationship better, it won't help you decide what job to settle on, and it won't make anyone take your relationship seriously.

I highly doubt anyone is trying to exclude you from any conversations, but you are 21. While you may think you have a ton of life experience...you don't. While you may think you are just as good of a teacher as the 35 year old that has 10 years experience on you...you don't. That doesn't mean you aren't effective, or aren't successful at this point in your life, but there is plenty you haven't done and don't know and when you're 35 you'll look back and laugh at what you thought you knew at 21. The rest of us have all done that. Trust me.

Hooray4JJ. I think your post is truly amazing and it is super well thought out. I really wanted to thank you for your point of view.

I really love your example of the dog, because that is EXACTLY me to a Tee. I used an Excel spreadsheet to calculate the monthly costs of food, medication, vet bills. I would then budget for the dogs life of 12 years taking into different scenarios of if he got hit by a car and needed medical attention, the cost of a cancer treatment, a perfectly healthy dog etc. I had a rough estimate of the dogs expense using my Lineal Programming software on Excel to output the dogs expenses through out its life. I then conducted an analysis outweighing the medical benefits of owning a dog to the medical issues arising from the stress of a dog. I even calculated the cost of therapy for the dog, if he got traumatized in numerous ways. Most people look at me funny when I tell them what I did. My classmates on the other hand understand.

I know this sounds super stupid at this time but everything about my life path is automatically calculated in my head like my excel spreadsheet. I fully understand 100% of people saying I am most likely going to change. I don't doubt that at all, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around the day my life turns into " Lets get the dog because he is sooo cute". That is probably why I seem so dense and argumentative to you guys. I am not TRYING to be difficult at all on purpose. I just feel like our conversation is totally running on different wave lengths.

Although my stupid quirks do seem to help me in the career sense. There is a reason I am a Engineer and I work mainly with Linear Programing en.wikipedia.org . . .
^ I try and use that to schedule my life. Doesn't work so well in the real world LOL

Again hooray4jj, I really really really do appreciate your post. Please don't think I am trying to dismiss you or that I am not listening to what you are saying. I fully accept your point of view, and the point of view of other people on the thread. I think marriage can be much more then a piece of paper, and I am not trying to downgrade that at all.

Renae, I don't think that I am more mature or that I know better then dance teachers. I am talking more about the business side of things where we are in a office. I just seem like age bias really IS a true problem in the internships that I have taken part of. I know we have to pay our dues, but I am meeting all the requirements for the job and I am doing a great job at it. I feel that performance should matter and not so much the lack of experience.

I totally know that I am going to look back and totally laugh at myself at 21. I fully expect myself to think " omfg what was I thinking!". You are 100% right Renae, that is probably something that every person does in their life. I look back to when I was 16 and laugh my head off.

I guess the reason I feel excluded is also because I don't want to be rude and change the conversation on people. If they want to talk about their children, I don't want to be like " hey guess what, did you know that flames actually have diamond properties?"

I've been in that position when I was younger, Munk, so I DO understand where you and YYD are coming from. It's why I wrote 'take steps to deal with it', meaning don't moan about your mistreatment, DO something about it! If you get no assistance from management or your boss or whatever internal affairs department there is for being discriminated against for you age, then try that. And then I also suggested that you could leave. In other words, most of the time you don't HAVE to be stuck where you are in life, you can be pro-active.

I'm lucky that not TOO much has happened to me...but I've seen a lot. I scare a lot of people at work because I know more than them and they don't like a perceived threat. Very few of my coworkers can effectively use a computer, for example. Some people will continue to do things a less efficient way because they don't want to admit that they don't know something.

And I'm sorry but in these places the bosses are just as much a part of the club...but whatever, I already said that I've got my promotion plans worked out. I'm not complaining either...just saying how it is. I don't get too bothered most of the time but some people I've worked with really get wound up tight. We're in transition right now...the generation that questions/doesn't trust/doesn't like my generation is about to retire, so yay. I love my parents but their peers can be super douches in the workplace.

If you do have children (or a house, or debt, or pets, or property, or anything), neither of you can cut and run while screwing the other one over.

Since when? Maybe I just live in the land of Oz or something, heh.