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re: The F word... (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By Odessamember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 11218, member since Tue Feb 26, 2002
On Mon Apr 16, 2012 06:19 PM
Some porn is, and some porn isn't.

Look up "feminist porn".

Feminists are VERY divided on the issue of pornography, so I encourage you to do your own research on this. There are some who believe that all pornography is bad* and not OK. There are some who believe some is bad, and some is good. There are some who believe it's all good. I am firmly in the middle group.

Like Cien has said, I can't hold your hand and explain all this stuff to you (or anyone else). There are loads of resources on the web out there for you to access if you really, genuinely want to learn (Try Melissa McEwan's site Shakesville that I linked to in my last post, for a great starting point). I can't teach all this to you, because if I was to take the time to teach all this to everyone who wanted to learn, I would never have any time in my day to do anything else.

*Bad being entirely subjective.

Erin.
::righteous babe::
re: The F word... en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 7989, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Mon Apr 16, 2012 06:23 PM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2012-04-16 18:26:27
Oh my goodness. I had no idea they had feminist porn. I need to take a look at that and see what in the world that is about.

I have been reading up a bit on some of the links posted and the wikipedia article.

I believe in equal rights for women, equal pay, same voting rights, same education etc...but at the same time I also believe that sexy women are important too. I value NFL Cheerleaders, Beauty Pageants, Models etc. Can I be a feminist fighting for equal rights, when I also value the sexualization of women in specific aspects. ( Sexy in the advertisement, but more then just SEX when it comes to other aspects of her life)

Based on my medicore research, it seems like the two can't coexist.
re: The F word... en>fr fr>en
By kandykanePremium member Comments: 16117, member since Mon May 01, 2006
On Mon Apr 16, 2012 06:48 PM
Edited by kandykane (157761) on 2012-04-16 18:52:41
I'm actually torn on this, too. Because a huge point of the women's movement was about securing CHOICE. The opportunity for women to make choices about their jobs, their sexuality, their family life. It was about breaking out of the norms that society had placed on women. So, in a very real sense, YYD has the power to make the choice to be a sexy, objectified woman if she so desires. It make me a little squirmy because it does veer into old stereotypes that were so important to break. But she's pursuing her path out of choice. Not because she has no choice.

EDIT: I guess it's like freedom of speech. We have the freedom to say what we want, but we still have to be responsible for what we say.

kk~
re: The F word... en>fr fr>en
By Odessamember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 11218, member since Tue Feb 26, 2002
On Mon Apr 16, 2012 06:53 PM
I'm not denying that she has the choice. What I am saying is that the ENTIRE INDUSTRY OF ADVERTISING spins on the axis of women as objects. And really, what is choice when the only choices a model has is to be objectified or to not work?

Erin.
::righteous babe::
re: The F word... en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 7989, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Mon Apr 16, 2012 07:01 PM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2012-04-16 19:03:13
I think you are making the whole advertisement thing way to black and white. Sure some things totally take the sexy route like those Axe commercials. On the other hand there are PLENTY of media advertisements that don't require objectification.
A model chooses the type of work that she wants to do. She can chose to do swimsuit but she can also chose to only audition for catalog work for places like Target.
I am not denying that there is objectification in the media, there is a lot of it like you pointed out. I just think that when someone says " don't notice the elephant!" you start seeing elephants everywhere you look.

As KK said, I make a personal choice to be in a line of work that objectifies women and men.

This next segment is NOT to anyone on DDN.

I just feel like people say they are open minded, until they run across a belief that doesn't fit into their ideal. I almost feel that women respect choices, being an equal, fair wages...until a women comes along who choses to objectify themselves willingly. Then it becomes " We need to mold you into what we believe a modern feminist woman should be!".
re: The F word... en>fr fr>en
By kandykanePremium member Comments: 16117, member since Mon May 01, 2006
On Mon Apr 16, 2012 07:12 PM
The model has the choice to BE a model or not. That's all I'm saying.

kk~
re: The F word... (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By Cienmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 6041, member since Tue Dec 20, 2005
On Mon Apr 16, 2012 07:19 PM
YumYumDoughnut wrote:

I almost feel that women respect choices, being an equal, fair wages...until a women comes along who choses to objectify themselves willingly. Then it becomes " We need to mold you into what we believe a modern feminist woman should be!".

And that is one of the flaws of the feminist movement. This has been discussed over and over again among women and feminists, so I assure you, you are not the first to see this double standard. It does exist, even in feminism, and it's something the movement has struggled with for a LONG time now. But you can't let that discount the entire concept of being a feminist. The key thing to understand is that while some feminists may hold you to that double standard, the great thing about feminism is that you can define it for yourself, as it applies to your life. It's really more accurate to say "feminisms," because feminism means something different for everyone. You can be a feminist and still enjoy being sexy, putting on makeup, caring about fashion, etc. Those kinds of feminists are completely real. We exist! I promise!
re: The F word... (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By Odessamember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 11218, member since Tue Feb 26, 2002
On Tue Apr 17, 2012 04:13 PM
And to expand a little on what Cien said above, another of the big questions of feminism is that of internalised misogyny. Is the model independently and willingly choosing to objectify herself, or has the all-pervasiveness of female objectification convinced her that it's not really that big of a deal? Is it true choice, or is it the choice in the context of internalised misogyny.

These are the philosophical questions that feminists are teasing out, questions we will probably never have a definitive answer to. There's no doubt that women across the world, across all cultures, have internalised misogyny to differing degrees, but how do you tell someone that her voluntary choices are actually the product of a society that's convinced her she's worthless? You don't, and you can't. That's what makes this area of feminist though such a sticky one.

Erin.
::righteous babe::
re: The F word... en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 7989, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Tue Apr 17, 2012 04:36 PM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2012-04-17 16:41:11
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2012-04-17 16:43:26



I think you bring up a really good point Odessa. I think my biggest questions as a self identified equalist is why objectification=worthlessness automatically.
I guess my attitude kind of proves your point that society has made me feel that it is ok to objectify myself and women in general

I don't objectify myself because I feel that I am somehow worthless to society. I think when I talk about objectifying myself, I am not talking about taking away my rights, my education, my thoughts, my personality. I don't think I am choosing to give away EVERYTHING except the sex aspect of it. Reading up a bit on it, it seems like the two can't coexist.

I do have to ask the philosophical question of whether or not a men can respect a women he is objectifying. (Vice Versa) I objectify hot men ALL the time, but I also respect them as a human being. I have attached a photo of a man who I am TOTALLY objectifying at the moment. Just because I am objectifying him, doesn't take away from the fact that I respect his career and also as a human being in general. I don't think he is worthless because I am objectifying him only as a sex object. I would TOTALLY only want to use him as my boy toy. BUT I know that he probably has a personality and other important characteristics.

I think we need to give men more credit that they can separate "beer can girl!" and them understanding that this women is a "real" human being.

I think that a highly educated and well respected women can also objectified without it taking away from her other rights. Maybe wishful thinking on my part.

If men really experienced misogyny, wouldn't they NOT want to look at a women in the media? The fact that they crave women on advertisements makes it seem like they highly value the female gender. At least, from my personal perspective. Kind of like worshiping a Godess
re: The F word... en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 7989, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Tue Apr 17, 2012 04:51 PM
I also want to point out, that I TOTALLY agree that there is obvious misogyny in some parts of the word which is common if not encouraged. I can think of countless examples of women being stones to death, after she was raped. Being burned with acid, beaten by a husband etc. I think this type of culture views women as property and not as a human being.

I am just not sure how misogyny correlates with using sexy women in advertisements as props. The chances of that model being treated like a property in "real life" is quite low. These models are being viewed as "human beings" once their shift is over. I think of modeling like a movie or theater. It is just pretend and it isn't "real life". Everyone knows that models are photoshopped and no one walks around being a beer girl in real life.
re: The F word... (karma: 2)  en>fr fr>en
By Odessamember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 11218, member since Tue Feb 26, 2002
On Tue Apr 17, 2012 05:10 PM
Edited by Odessa (22571) on 2012-04-17 17:13:41 linkfail
Edited by Odessa (22571) on 2012-04-17 17:21:00 added another section.
The chances of that model being treated like a property in "real life" is quite low.

Yes, the chances of THAT PARTICULAR MODEL being treated like property in REAL LIFE is low. But this is not about THAT MODEL, but instead is about ALL WOMEN. I've already explained this:
I, on page two of this debate wrote:

Objectification of women pervades every aspect of our society, from advertising, like that Budweiser ad, where the woman literally BECOMES the product (and thus, is no longer seen as a human being), through to the fixation we have on what women wear, what they do, what choices they make. We literally CANNOT write or read an article about a female celebrity or world leader or other public figure without there being some comment on what she's wearing, what she looks like, whether she is fat or thin, or has lost or gained weight.

This sort of open discourse depersonalises women, turns them into objects to be consumed. And consume them we do: we judge them for what they wear on the red carpet, we judge them for what choices they make (to wit: January Jones was pregnant, and chose not to reveal the name of the father, and the media went into a tailspin), we see them disembodied on advertising billboards and packaging. We watch television shows like Ladette to Lady, where we can laugh at these so-called "trashy" girls, and feel better about ourselves because we're "not like them". We are us, they are "other", a junky treat to be consumed and forgotten about.

And it's this sort of thing that teaches all people that women are somehow less. It's this sort of thing, that most of us think is just throwaway, that directly contributes to the othering of women. It teaches all people that women are property, are prizes to be won.


Seriously, why am I having to repeat myself?

I can think of countless examples of women being stones to death, after she was raped. Being burned with acid, beaten by a husband etc. I think this type of culture views women as property and not as a human being.


What about this one?. A lawmaker in Georgia (United States Georgia, not former Soviet Georgia), in an anti-choice legislation debate recently compared women seeking terminations of their pregnancy after a stillbirth, to cows and pigs, saying that when he lived on a farm, he saw cows and pigs having to carry stillborn foetuses to term.

This "othering" of women doesn't just happen in countries on the other side of the world where people wear strange clothes and cleave to ancient and bizarre religious laws. It's happening right here in the Western world too, and while the objectification of women in the media is not DIRECTLY responsible for the disgusting assault on women's reproductive rights happening in the United States RIGHT NOW, it is just one of many, many things that makes people like Terry England think it's OK to compare women (living, breathing, sentient human beings) to livestock (chattel that farmers use to make money).

If that is not objectification, I don't know what is.

Erin.
::righteous babe::

EDIT: And on the subject of all the questions you asked in your first reply (which, for some reason, I TOTALLY missed): If I haven't been able to explain all these things to you so far, in EVERY DISCUSSION WE'VE EVER HAD ABOUT FEMINISM AND MISOGYNY ON THIS SITE, then I give up. I cannot explain it, and it is likely that you will never understand. It is exhausting, and I simply can't go on.
re: The F word... en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 7989, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Tue Apr 17, 2012 05:47 PM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2012-04-17 17:49:03
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2012-04-17 17:54:32
It isn't that I don't understand what you are saying. I do understand it. I just don't agree with the majority and I am hoping that your explanations change my mind. I do want to be a feminist rallying for equal rights, but a lot of what you and cien are saying doesn't sit well with me. I am praying that your explanations will let me see the other side. It is just that you guys are coming across to me as if you guys dislike men. I know that isn't what you REALLY believe in, but it is coming across that way.

I am not sure if I just haven't been jadded yet, but I think that most men are NOT like that crazy lawmaker comparing women to livestock. Yes THAT is misogyny to the fullest extent. THAT type of objectification actually DOES take away a woman's rights. You know FULL WELL that I wasn't talking about that type of objectification when I am talking about a sexy Budlight girl.

You also are FULLY AWARE that I am not referring to objectifications that take a womens rights away.
I am going to be 100% honest here.
When you compare the stupid lawmaker or the acid burning to media advertisements, I can't help wonder if there is something MORE going on to the story.

My guy friends all likes looking at sexy women and making comments about her hot body. Because they objectify women, and since sexual objectification is a form of misogyny, are you telling me that they hate women? It doesn't add up in my mind. If anything, they value women a lot more then their guy friends.

My point is, misogyny existed WAY before media advertisements. Just go look in the Bible.
re: The F word... en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 7989, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Tue Apr 17, 2012 06:12 PM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2012-04-17 18:14:31
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2012-04-17 18:21:07 Adding original quote I am talking about
If I haven't been able to explain all these things to you so far, in EVERY DISCUSSION WE'VE EVER HAD ABOUT FEMINISM AND MISOGYNY ON THIS SITE, then I give up. I cannot explain it, and it is likely that you will never understand. It is exhausting, and I simply can't go on.

Odessa, this is extremely hard for me to say and I hope you don't take it as a personal attack, because it is not.

I admit that I have a Bias towards some of the things you say. You are the totally the opposite 180 from me, therefore sometimes I catch myself not having an open mind.
For example : I detested the Occupy movement and you favored it. I think that a person should be partly judged on their appearance+weight and you detest that idea.
My point is that we are oil and water in SO MANY THINGS politically and personally.

The reason I keep coming back to this thread is because under that artificial layer of DDN, there is a great message behind what you are saying. I am TRYING to keep an open mind to what you are saying, so I am sorry if you are getting frustrated with me. You are such a smart individual and I need to learn to put differences aside in order to REALLY listen to what you say about this subject.

I admit that I used to have a preconceived idea that women become feminists because they aren't pretty enough to be valued by men so they become bitter towards them. This was totally wrong of me, and I am actively working towards changing my view points on that subject. THAT is why I keep coming back, not because I am trying to piss you off or frustrate anyone on DDN. I wholeheartedly admit that I grew up in a environment where feminist were thought to be the fat, ugly and lesbian women who were too lazy to work.

So if people stop jumping on me for every mistake I make on this thread, I would really be more willing to be 100% open without my preconceived ideas that I learned as a child/teen. I KNOW I am probably saying stupid crap and spewing offensive stuff, without realizing it. So please be patient with me and forgive me for stupid crap that I spew at times.
re: The F word... en>fr fr>en
By Odessamember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 11218, member since Tue Feb 26, 2002
On Tue Apr 17, 2012 06:35 PM
I admit that I used to have a preconceived idea that women become feminists because they aren't pretty enough to be valued by men so they become bitter towards them.


This is the crux of it. You've got all these really confused and mixed up ideas about women, men, feminism, and so much other stuff, that if I were to take your hand and guide you in unpacking all this, I would literally not get anything else done in my life. I literally can't do it. It is wearing me out.

I suggest (as I have suggested before), that you (and anyone else interested in learning more about feminist thought, women's rights, rape culture, objectification of women and other topics within gender politics) GOOGLE IT and guide your own learning.

Read Feministing, Feministe, Shakesville (particularly the Feminism 101 section. Check out Finally Feminisim 101, a great FAQ on various aspects of feminist theory.

I appreciate that you want to learn, but there is only so much education I give you, as I am still learning myself. There are many other people out there who are better educated on these issue than I am, who have written amazing things, and contributed greatly to feminist theory. Please, use Google and try to get a better understanding of these issues. You cannot rely on me to teach you everything, because I simply don't have the energy.

Erin.
::righteous babe::
re: The F word... en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 7989, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Tue Apr 17, 2012 06:43 PM
Odessa, I understand and agree with what you are saying.
Here is the scope of the problem that I am running into when reading some of the articles and googling. ( This can obviously be answered by anyone on this thread!)

I read an article and go " Oh my god! That is so right, she has a great point"...then 4 articles later I read something and I go " Oh my god, she sounds so bitter! I wonder if she was picked in high school for being ugly. Maybe she never went on a date!"( which is wrong of me, just trying to be an open book here)

There are some GREAT things about feminism that I read, but along the same lines, some bitter hatred about men that I have read. When I am trying to have a 100% open mind an absorb everything I am reading, the good AND bad are being absorbed. So the bad neutralizes the good aspect, and I am back to square 00 after reading 10 different articles.

Was this a common problem you had, when you started to get into it?
re: The F word... en>fr fr>en
By Emmamember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 6897, member since Mon Nov 29, 2004
On Tue Apr 17, 2012 06:56 PM
Edited by Emma (114649) on 2012-04-17 18:58:45
The way I see it, "feminism" has some similarities to "organised religion". In that there are people who are "feminists" just like there are members of "organised religions", and not all of those people think the same thing, but they all identify with being a "member" (for want of a better word). Do you understand what I'm trying to say there?

I'm so glad I started this, because it really has got me wanting to learn more about what problems women in western society are still facing as well as further afield. I know we have a long way to go, I just didn't know that it was longer than I thought.

Don't go back to your original thought YYD, think of it like a jew vs an orthodox jew (totally saw an episode of grey's anatomy recently where the orthodox daughter of non-orthodox parents wanted a cow valve replacement in her heart rather than a pig, which is why this example springs to mind, but I digress.) They're both basing their core beliefs on the same general idea, it's just that one takes it to more of an extreme than another. Choose your own extreme, and if you find something that's a little too extreme for your taste, try and figure out if it's because you're not used to that idea, but it actually makes sense, or if they're actually advocating for something you really can't agree with, and ask yourself why not?
re: The F word... en>fr fr>en
By Nyssasisticmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 3460, member since Sat Sep 20, 2003
On Tue Apr 17, 2012 07:14 PM
I consider myself a pseudo-feminist, although most members on here probably wouldn't.

One thing that I've never understood is that people "like" YYD (and I'm just using you as an example because you've pretty clearly expressed your opinion on this) claim that being able to be sexy to the point of being seen/used as an object is one of the 'perks' of the feminist movement.
Women that are using their sexiness in a way to control men are appealing exactly to what YYD referenced- the "caveman within". However, isn't feminism about equality? Wouldn't dressing and acting that way be controlling the men around you (at least the ones that are willing to think of/use you as an object)? Doesn't that put you on unequal footing? Sure, you may have "power" or "control" over the men in doing so, but does that really forward the feminist cause, or does it hurt it by giving the female undue power over the male?

Now, I'm not necessarily talking about dressing up in a sexy/cute outfit and hitting the town, or even dressing well for work. I'm talking about dressing and acting in a way to purposely manipulate a man/men.

(Of course, the man that's doing the thinking/acting isn't let off the hook here, but we as women can't control what men do. We can only control what we as women do).
re: The F word... en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 7989, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Tue Apr 17, 2012 07:43 PM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2012-04-17 19:48:14
Nyssa maybe I can give you a bit of insight on people "like" me. For one thing, I don't dress or act in a objectified manner everyday. I am talking about when I am modeling or going out for an event. Not a run to a grocery store but more like girls night out.

For the modeling aspect, yes it is to manipulate men into spending more money in the item or event. The simplest example would be like hiring hot go go dancers at a bar. The men will stay longer to watch the go go dancers, which means he will probably buy more alcohol. Having a super hot Ring Girl during a Fighting Match makes ticket sales go up. Having hot NFL cheerleaders is good advertisement ETC

For me when I use the word "equal", I mean same voting rights, education, wages etc. If I dress seductively on a Saturday night I am not taking away any of his core equal rights, such as equal wages. Therefore he is not at a disadvantage.
If I dressed sexy at work in order to get a promotion, THAT would be unequal footing in my opinion.

I don't think I dress sexy and objectified in order to "manipulate" a man in a negative way. It isn't a power struggle between a man and myself. The men I tend to date like the whole package. Looking sexy when going on a date night is one way of keeping their attention.
( Says the girl in sweats, no makeup and hair in a messy bun. My bf gets the "relaxed" look for the day!)

I just also think that I am a lot more honest with my feelings of being objectified then most women. Each time you girls wear short skirt, high heels, makeup and dress fancy to go out....are you really doing that so people notice your personality or college degree? I would venture to guess that you are hoping that people see you as a sexy thang!
re: The F word... (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By oz_helenmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 11196, member since Sat Aug 10, 2002
On Tue Apr 17, 2012 08:14 PM
Edited by oz_helen (35388) on 2012-04-18 22:42:46 tiny typo: had/has
This is another reason why it is a problem that our society objectifies women.

When you’re young, nobody pays attention to what you have to say or the work you do because of the way you look—and when you’re old, nobody pays attention to what you have to say or the work you do because of the way you look. Whether you’re perceived as an irresistible babe or a saggy, baggy old hag, it’s all about your appearance.


It is ALL about your appearance. It doesn't matter how good your quality of work is or how intelligent you are.

This has led to the following:

A recent survey of women aged 18-25 found that 41 percent would prefer having large breasts to having high intelligence, and more than a quarter of those who responded said they would trade their IQs for bigger breasts.


And why? Because they know that society values looks over everything else.

Helen
re: The F word... en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 7989, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Tue Apr 17, 2012 08:54 PM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2012-04-17 21:04:19 Realized that the joke could be taken out of context
Realized that the joke is a bad idea out of context. I probably shouldn't be joking on a serious thread like this either.

PM me if you want to know what I wrote before. I would be more then willing to share it with you.
re: The F word... en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 7989, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Tue Apr 17, 2012 08:59 PM
On a totally unrelated note, since this is a thread about feminism in general what do you guys think about this statement? I was doing a bit of official reading into this topic but I got bored and started to click around some casual websites. Here is what someone said and I was wondering what you guys thought.

But there is some truth in the fact that there are probably more "pretty and hot" women who aren't feminists than are. Why? Society's hottest women benefit from the current system.

I saw an article once about how the Men's Rights movement has so much trouble getting anywhere because the men who are in power--the "alpha males" for lack of a better term, benefit from the way things are; the men with the power to do anything don't want to. Similar concept with the prettiest women in society being too busy enjoying the benefits that being unbelievably sexy brings to care about feminism.


Thoughts about this?
re: The F word... en>fr fr>en
By Cienmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 6041, member since Tue Dec 20, 2005
On Tue Apr 17, 2012 09:04 PM
Edited by CienPorCientoPAZ (147923) on 2012-04-17 21:06:28
YumYumDoughnut wrote:

There are some GREAT things about feminism that I read, but along the same lines, some bitter hatred about men that I have read. When I am trying to have a 100% open mind an absorb everything I am reading, the good AND bad are being absorbed...Was this a common problem you had, when you started to get into it?

I can't speak for Erin, but for me, yes. Feminism is a lot more complex and multidimensional than most people realize, because the mainstream media and culture likes to oversimplify it. Because of this, it can be really overwhelming when you first start to familiarize yourself with it. What's helped me the most is:

-Don't overload yourself; maybe just start by browsing Feministing every day, and then gradually widen your scope as you find your areas of interest.
-Take your time. Reading all you can is a great way to get more comfortable with feminism, but if you need to give yourself a day or so to really digest something you've encountered, do it. All the reading in the world won't do you much good at all if you don't consider what YOU think about it.
-On that note, realize that you don't have to be 100% open to EVERY SINGLE THING all the time. Look at the way you react to things you read (and not just in the moment, but after some thought as well). Are there some issues that you have a really strong, definite feeling about? Do you find yourself consistently disagreeing with something if you see it from multiple sources? If you don't agree with what you feel is a "bitter hatred of men," then you've already determined that your feminism will not be characterized by man-hating. There you go.
-Understand that this is not a homogenous movement. Feminists can and often DO have contradicting opinions about many things. This is why it should be called "feminisms," because feminism means so many different things to so many different people. Views and opinions change, even within individuals.

YYD wrote:

Thoughts about this?

Uhh...it's completely true?
re: The F word... en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 7989, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Tue Apr 17, 2012 09:10 PM
^ Cien, I am glad you said that.

I think THIS is also why I have been hesitant on doing too much research into the subject. I would totally get absorbed into a blog, then all of a sudden she would write a post saying something that TOTALLY made her sound like a " skinny women jealousy men are evil!". I just have to remember that just because someone says something offensive about ONE aspect doesn't mean to discredit the whole viewpoint.

I've actually been enjoying this one that Erin has linked . www.feministe.us . . .

Cien, you believe that the quote is true? So you do feel like it is sexy women taking advantage over the system VS normal women? That is what I felt that the commenter was trying to get across, but I was disagreeing with him based on what I learned on this thread and feministe.us
re: The F word... (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By ChristinePremium member Comments: 6118, member since Wed Feb 04, 2009
On Tue Apr 17, 2012 09:20 PM
Edited by Christine (207347) on 2012-04-17 21:26:41 edit
I just got home from work and returned to this site, as I said I would, but honestly, like Erin, I feel like I'm shoveling sand against the wind.

Lauren, I am just heartbroken for you.
I admit that I used to have a preconceived idea that women become feminists because they aren't pretty enough to be valued by men so they become bitter towards them. This was totally wrong of me, and I am actively working towards changing my view points on that subject. THAT is why I keep coming back, not because I am trying to piss you off or frustrate anyone on DDN. I wholeheartedly admit that I grew up in a environment where feminist were thought to be the fat, ugly and lesbian women who were too lazy to work


Where were you brought up?

Fat
Ugly
Lazy
Lesbian (oh god, did you really type this?!)
Bitter

BECAUSE they are not valued by men.... (and of which men do you speak?)

Unless my math is bad, you aren't old enough to have come by these ignorant ideas honestly. This "environment" was toxic.

You are a college student...and a smart one, from what we can tell here. I STRONGLY suggest you take an English course on Unruly Women and Iron Men. Every 4 year college offers one. I also suggest a history course on feminism in America. And a global perspectives class on women in eastern societies, women and Islam, and any other perspective broadening courses available. The history of women in Japan would also be helpful to help you sort through the mess someone has made of your mind and soul.

Trying to instruct you on the overall "wrongness" of the core "values" here would take weeks. And I'm not sure you would understand. And honestly, I mean no disrespect when I say that.

This statement, quoted above, explains a great deal about many, many, odd perspectives and life style choices. PLEASE...educate yourself and take a long, hard look at who you want to be.

Continuing this discussion, and the other one that spun off this one is like trying to trip a runaway train hoping to make it run off the track.

Like Erin, I am exhausted. And, I have no desire to break my own leg trying to trip a train.

I sincerely wish you all well.

And I'll pray extra hard for all women everywhere tonight. This is just so, so, sad.

Keep On Dancing*
re: The F word... en>fr fr>en
By YumYumDoughnutPremium member Comments: 7989, member since Sat Jul 10, 2004
On Tue Apr 17, 2012 09:35 PM
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2012-04-17 21:36:50
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2012-04-17 21:46:44
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2012-04-17 21:49:39
Edited by YumYumDoughnut (99333) on 2012-04-17 21:51:56 Message to mods
Where were you brought up?


A strict christian setting where a woman was told to "obey her husband" because it says in the bible? Lets see, women were created for men. God didn't mean for a woman to be without a man and he was the head of the household. My religious teacher looked down on the whole feminist thing. Feminism was always thought of as a threat to destroy the human race.

My immediate family ( parents) was a lot less extreme then my other family and school. They still believed that being gay was a sin, but they always pushed me to be independent and never pounded it into my head that I NEEDED a husband. I was a lot more "feminist" then all the church girls growing up.

I guess I should better provide you with a link, so you understand where my old believe is coming from.
"Role-interchangeability," which eliminates role distinctions, should concern Seventh-day Adventists because we are committed to belief in the creation as it is presented in Scripture. Contrary to Christians who interpret the creation story as a poetic description of the evolutionary process, Adventists accept as factual the account of the six days of creation. Because we accept the doctrine of creation, we accept the order of creation. But if Adventists accept the humanistic notion that the roles of men and women are completely interchangeable, we will undermine our belief in the doctrine of creation, on which the Sabbath commandment is based. Also, in terms of day-to-day living, eliminating the clear role distinctions between men and women accelerates the breakdown of the family, leads to confusion of identity among children, and may contribute to acceptance of homosexuality as a legitimate lifestyle.


www.experts123.com . . .


MODS

I hope that it is ok that religion is being brought up on this thread. It is being discussed as a historical fact and nothing more then a personal story of my past. This isn't really discussing religion but the upbringing up YYD. I hope you don't need to move this to the religion board, because this isn't discussing religion.
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