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"And always let your conscience be your guide" (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By ChristinePremium member Comments: 6126, member since Wed Feb 04, 2009
On Fri Apr 20, 2012 07:45 PM

Is it possible that the pope is celebrating 4/20?
www.washingtonpost.com . . .

I can't believe this!

As I recall, Christians are commanded to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty,shelter the homeless,clothe the naked, comfort the sick, visit the sick or imprisoned,and bury the dead. (Matthew 25:31-46,Tobit)

For the pope to scold the American Nuns that they spend too much energy on the poor, and not enough time condemning homosexuality and abortion just boggles my mind.

I am well aware that the press is not always kind to the Vatican, however, I am so outraged at the idea that these women were also publicly scolded about expressing their opinions instead of silently and obediently following their male superiors (all men in the church are their superiors, according to the scripture quoted)is so hurtful and unkind, I can't believe any human in the 21st century could actually take this public stand. I am heartbroken for these women.

A part of me wants to scream, "Cluck you,you Nazi Bastard!", which of course I wouldn't do...but I'm sure many of you understand the temptation.

It's getting harder and harder to be a faithful Catholic. Most of my Catholic education impressed on me the importance of acting according to conscience. St. Thomas Aquinas wrote volumes on this subject.

Am I missing something here?

Your thoughts?

Keep On Dancing*

9 Replies to "And always let your conscience be your guide"

re: "And always let your conscience be your guide" (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By hummingbird Comments: 8381, member since Mon Apr 18, 2005
On Fri Apr 20, 2012 08:53 PM
I like this reply to the article, this is at the top of the responses at the moment. They aren't my words, mine would probably also be along the lines of 'Cluck you....'


"Did Jesus mention anything about abortion or gay marriage?

Did Jesus mention anything about caring for the poor and needy?

When you answer this, you´ll know who is right here.

Thomas Jefferson famously cut the words of Jesus out of a Bible and pasted them onto a new piece of paper in order to separate the words that mattered from the other stuff."
re: "And always let your conscience be your guide" (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By Nyssasisticmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 3460, member since Sat Sep 20, 2003
On Sat Apr 21, 2012 08:44 AM
Er... I'm not sure the media has the facts correct here.

WP says that they were reprimanded for "spending too much time on social justice issues".
ABC (link: www.cbsnews.com . . . ) says that they were commended for their social justice work and reprimanded especially because of the strong stance in favor of health care reform.

However, LifeNews.com, who's been watching the health care reform stuff closely (obviously) and are VERY quick to denounce those that support health care reform as long as there's paying for abortions AND a lack of conscience protection involved, issued this article a while ago: www.lifenews.com . . . Which states that the CMSWR have been vocal about their opposition to the health care reform bill.

I often listen to Catholic News, Catholic Radio, etc. Trust me, if this group were as radical and dissenting from the USCCB as WP and ABC claim, they would have been all over the news.

Network, the group talked about in the LifeNews article, HAVE been in the news quite often for their dissenting views.

The CMSRW HAVE been very vocal on dissenting on other stuff (women's ordination being their BIG issue), but they've never defied the Church on the pro-life or homosexuality front. As far as I'm aware, they've never even officially opposed the Church, just members of their leadership (which is handled much differently than if the whole organization had come out against the Vatican).

That being said, since just about every article I've looked up has a different twist on the story, I'm going to wait until I can find the official Vatican statement. I don't have time to dig around right now, but I'll try later.
re: "And always let your conscience be your guide" en>fr fr>en
By ChristinePremium member Comments: 6126, member since Wed Feb 04, 2009
On Sat Apr 21, 2012 08:13 PM
Edited by Christine (207347) on 2012-04-21 20:43:41 more
^Thanks for this additional insight. The various twists on the incident seem to be what you would expect from the various publications, given their individual mission statements and underlying point of view.

The basic problem I have with all of this is that there is no denying the political impact the Vatican hopes (and prays)to have globally. No one can deny that the pope is well aware of the power of his words yet publicly criticizes the American women of conscience (who happened to be nuns) who sang, "Give Peace A Chance", as they peacefully demonstrated their support of the health care bill which would improve the lives of countless Americans. These women work with the most needy among us, in the trenches, and know that health care reform is needed now. They've seen the results of kitchen table abortions performed on fourteen year old mothers and know that sometimes you can only do the best you can in an imperfect world. First do no harm.

It is interesting, politically speaking, that the Bishops are so unwilling to concede that the reality of trying to please all of the people some of the time has to involve, "no squeal, no deal". The women in the church seem to understand, but since women are not allowed any power (to be a pope or a bishop, one must first be a priest...no female priests allowed. Not now, not ever)their voices will never be heard. And when they seek a public opportunity (as individuals....a few dozen, the right to life publication said)there is a public statement from the Vatican?

It is also interesting, spiritually speaking, that the Bishops are unmovable on the "matter of conscience" exclusion they want on the current health care bill provisions, yet seem to be denying the women's ability to discern their own consciences, and support the bill based on that examination.

It just doesn't work for me, no matter how many different lenses filter it. I would love to read the actual statement from the Vatican. I'll look forward to seeing just how different the actual statement was than what ABC reported.

Thanks again for the links.

Keep On Dancing*
re: "And always let your conscience be your guide" (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By Nyssasisticmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 3460, member since Sat Sep 20, 2003
On Sat Apr 21, 2012 11:32 PM
Found it: www.usccb.org . . .

Had to do some pretty deep google searching to find it, but I finally found the link to it on newsbusters (for anyone that doesn't want to cull through the actual document, here's another "translation" of it: newsbusters.org . . .

While I see why someone could be upset over the idea that women will never "hold power" in the Catholic Church (something that I disagree with, but I can see why that would be a viewpoint), you also have to keep in mind that these are pretty much issues that haven't EVER changed within the Catholic Church, and even if there were a female pope I doubt they would change. Thing is that the Catholic Church, especially on "big issues", has been the same since the beginning and will always be that way. There's a reason most people think that the Church itself is archaic and outdated.

The USCCB is actually very much in favor of Health Care Reform, but will not support it as long as it has taxpayers paying for abortions and no conscience clauses for doctors that believe it unethical to perform abortions. Were those taken care of, the USCCB as well as just about every other Catholic group in the US would support it like crazy.

Anyway, it looks like what's really going on is that they WERE commended on their social justice work (not reprimanded for "spending too much time on it"), but they've apparently been having "doctrinal issues" that include not speaking out against homosexuality and abortion (even though they as a group ARE pretty vocal most of the time).

What it seems like it's boiling down to is that the Vatican is launching a kind of investigation to delve deeper into this. Thing is that this is an official, Vatican-sanctioned group; or in other words they DO represent the Catholic Church. When they as a group defy what Catholicism has taught for millenia there's going to be some problems. The Vatican is pretty much just monitoring them closely for the time being.
re: "And always let your conscience be your guide" (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By hummingbird Comments: 8381, member since Mon Apr 18, 2005
On Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:06 AM
^ According to legend there was a woman pope, she was stoned to death by the faithful when they found out she was not a he. They were that holy.
re: "And always let your conscience be your guide" en>fr fr>en
By ChristinePremium member Comments: 6126, member since Wed Feb 04, 2009
On Sun Apr 22, 2012 09:42 AM
I'll be back later, after I close read all the links, but I just want to add something.

Priests were allowed, indeed encouraged, to marry in the early days of the church. It was only when missionaries were sent out to "spread the word to all peoples near and far" that it changed. It was much cheaper to send a single man than a family, and by discouraging "coupling" in foreign lands, it maintained control over the possibility of marrying ideology as well as individuals.

I'll be back.... (hide your husbands, hide your wives...)

Keep On Dancing*
re: "And always let your conscience be your guide" en>fr fr>en
By Heartmember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member Comments: 14987, member since Thu Feb 14, 2002
On Mon Apr 23, 2012 04:44 PM
<tangent>

Thomas Jefferson famously cut the words of Jesus out of a Bible and pasted them onto a new piece of paper in order to separate the words that mattered from the other stuff.

No. The reason he did this was to create a pure Deist Bible. It cut out all references to Jesus' miracles and eliminate the argument of whether or not he was a god. Thus one could honor Jesus as simply being a mortal man with a good conscience.

Here is a quote from Jefferson as quoted on Wiki:
In extracting the pure principles which he taught, we should have to strip off the artificial vestments in which they have been muffled by priests, who have travestied them into various forms, as instruments of riches and power to themselves. We must dismiss the Platonists and Plotinists, the Stagyrites and Gamalielites, the Eclectics, the Gnostics and Scholastics, their essences and emanations, their logos and demiurges, aeons and daemons, male and female, with a long train of … or, shall I say at once, of nonsense. We must reduce our volume to the simple evangelists, select, even from them, the very words only of Jesus, paring off the amphibologisms into which they have been led, by forgetting often, or not understanding, what had fallen from him, by giving their own misconceptions as his dicta, and expressing unintelligibly for others what they had not understood themselves. There will be found remaining the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man. I have performed this operation for my own use, by cutting verse by verse out of the printed book, and arranging the matter which is evidently his, and which is as easily distinguishable as diamonds in a dunghill. The result is an octavo of forty-six pages, of pure and unsophisticated doctrines.


</tangent>
re: "And always let your conscience be your guide" en>fr fr>en
By ChristinePremium member Comments: 6126, member since Wed Feb 04, 2009
On Mon Apr 23, 2012 05:34 PM
Thanks to all of you for your research on this emotional topic.

I did read them closely, and as most Vatican documents, it is like reading a legal brief...oh yeah...it is a legal brief!

I have to give it to the good Sisters....they certain did ruffle some feathers. Good for you, girls!

Nyssasistic hit the nail on the head with this
There's a reason most people think that the Church itself is archaic and outdated.


It is no wonder the convents do not have enough younger members to support the communities as the older women age. It is impossible to imagine that women educated in the United States in this century would continue to read documents like this and say, "Oh, ok. My bad!" It is really a shame that the pope seems to be missing the point.

Keep On Dancing*
re: "And always let your conscience be your guide" (karma: 1)  en>fr fr>en
By Ellen_Eliz Comments: 1085, member since Sun May 01, 2005
On Sun Jun 10, 2012 07:55 PM
As the product of a Sisters of St. Dominic education at an all-girls high school, I read this (and another similar article) and could just picture the sisters at the convent raising cain. Yes, this makes me mad, but I think it's good to let people know that there are other (aka non-archaic) Catholics, even nuns! The sisters I know and love are elderly but they still speak up about things like this-it's not just the young generation who want to shift focus here.

I agree with you completely that it's difficult to be a faithful Catholic right now. It's something I wrestle with all the time. The Church leadership often makes me angry, but then I remember those sisters that I love so much and it makes me feel better, at least temporarily. :)

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