Forum: Irish / Irish - Teachers and Assistants

Question regarding placing system
By TrischPremium member
On Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:00 AM

Hi all, I experience a different placing system in competitions. Sometimes, the places continue without taking ties into account, sometimes places are skipped because of them. For example, if you have a tie on 3rd place the next one is 4 and sometimes 5.

Is this a question of regional councils, areas or ...?

Is there an "official rule", ie in the ad exam??

Thanks

4 Replies to Question regarding placing system

re: Question regarding placing system
By colleeflower28
On Mon Aug 13, 2012 09:33 AM
Edited by colleeflower28 (85089) on 2012-08-13 09:34:19
The official rule for the AD exam (with CLRG at least) is that if there is a tie for 3rd you would skip 4th place and the next place would be 5th.

So you would have 1,2,3,3,5

Similairly if there was a 3 way tie for 7th it would go
1,2,3,3,5,6,7,7,7,10

I think this is beacause with ties, the points are combined for the place and the place below it. With a 2 way tie for 3rd, the points for 3rd and 4th are added and then divided by 2, giving each dancer half. With a 3 way tie for 7th they would add 7,8 and 9th place Irish points, and divide by 3. Thus, because the points for 8 and 9 have been used the next place awarded is 10th.

Edit: In North America however at most feis this rule is not used and if there was a 2 way tie for 3rd and 3 way tie for 7th many feis would award
1,2,3,3,4,5,6,7,7,7,8
re: Question regarding placing system
By Louisemember has saluted, click to view salute photosPremium member
On Mon Aug 13, 2012 09:40 PM
In grades, where Irish points aren't used, most won't bother to skip the tie in real-life situations. I don't know what the protocol would be in your ADCRG exam, but in grades it doesn't matter so much practically speaking. Sometimes feiseanna want judges to award every dancer a medal in a particular dance, usually the reel, so you might get 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and then a multitude of 4ths and 5ths just so for simplicity's sake, rather than calling out down to 20th place. Better for the kid's ego too.

However in champ competitions, where Irish points are used, the place after the tie must be skipped to ensure that everyone gets the same points. (e.g. if there is a tie for first then you wouldn't give each dancer 100 and then give the third placed dancer 75. You add 100 to 75, divide by two to get 87.5, and the tied dancers receive that score. 3rd gets the proper 3rd place mark of 65).

In British and Irish champs they will then call out anybody with the same final points total as the same place, with the next one skipped. They don't always do that in North America at local feiseanna but it looks like they do at the Os and NANs.

IMO the next place should always be skipped, because otherwise you could have 5 or 6 kids in the top 3, then the 4th place kid is actually 7th. It's not a true reflection of where you placed - you can't be 4th if 6 kids were given better marks than you, you know? Apparently it used to be done in NA to get more qualifiers, but now they don't do it at qualifiers but it's hung over into local competitions?

So, it's ALWAYS skipped when points are part of the equation, but not always skipped when it's down to the final point totals.
re: Question regarding placing system
By TrischPremium member
On Tue Aug 14, 2012 07:04 AM
thank you 2!! Really helpful and now I understand.
re: Question regarding placing system
By krisinstitches
On Wed Aug 22, 2012 08:33 AM
Edited by krisinstitches (207242) on 2012-08-22 08:42:43
I think most (if not all) of the competitions we go to (upper Southern region/lower Mid-Atlantic region in the US) don't skip the next place(s). It makes sense that they should, especially when Louise points out how it impacts the Irish points. I don't know if it is because we call out from the last-placed competitor and work our way up?

adding: It looks like, depending on which tabulation group you use in the US, it is done both ways. It looks like eFeis and FeisWeb do not skip the next place, but FeisWorx does. (I did a quick look at 2 others, QuickFeis and Feis Info, and it doesn't look like they skip either.) BUT, those that do not skip may do it the way they do based on how the feis committee wants it. (It was by no means an in-depth analysis...I took a glance at the prelim/open champ competitions from a few feiseanna on each site.)

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